Well, quite often entropion - the turning in of the eye margins causing damage to the dogs' eyes.
It is a direct consequence of the wrinkling/skin folds that have become a defining feature of the Westernised version of the breed but was never a feature of the original Shar-pei (see here).
And, indeed, it is is so bad that "tacking" is routine in the breed - a procedure in which the vet places sutures around the eye when the dogs are pups to prevent the eye surface being injured by the inward rolling of eyelashes.
This often does the trick; sometimes, though, Shar-pei need more surgery to correct the entropion when they are older.
Shar-pei breeders are so de-sensitised to this that tacking (and entropion surgery) is not considered a big deal in the breed. In fact, in the twisted logic adopted by some breeders, tacking is actually considered a sign of a responsible breeder. And although the Kennel Club dictated a few years back that dogs that have had their eyes tacked cannot be shown, insiders tell me that an awful lot of show dogs will have had their eyes tacked as pups. It is hard to prove one way or the other.
But there are some breeders taking a stand and one in particular I'd like to praise.
Three years ago, I blogged this photograph, as featured in a book by the photographer Tim Flach. As you can see, this very wrinkled eight-week-old pup is sporting a stitch above her right eye - a "tack".
It turned out that the pup was bred by a UK-based breeder called Ines Alarcao. She took quite a lot of stick at the time and has since withdrawn from showing.
But she's kept breeding Shar-pei and she recently sent me these pix of her current litter of eight pups. Here they are at six weeks old. They all have clear eyes and not a single one has had to be tacked. They also have fewer wrinkles and bigger ears (breeding for very small ears in Shar-pei has led to tiny ear canals prone to ear infections).
Have a look at these photos and then see below for what Ines says about these pups.
It's a big improvement - at least in terms of their conformation.
I asked Ines how she had achieved it:
"I bought two girls from different lines four years ago , with reasonable eyes and not many wrinkles and good ears. I have mated them with guys with the same features. One of them produced a blue boy with excellent eyes, the other produced a girl with good eyes too, and I have now mated these two together and produced this guys. Some people say that good eyes are a matter of luck. Not true! But I had to find it through trial and error. I am keeping two girls from this litter , I bought another one that has got less wrinkles and more traditional features, and I have another 6 mth-old girl that i bred and kept with really good eyes. My new breeding program will be based on them."
Now these pups are still too immoderate for me. And, in my opinion, this breed is too inbred and has too many inherent health problems (notably Familial Shar-pei Fever) to be able to justify breeding it at all.
But I really was pleased to see these pix. A step in the right direction.
Kudos to this breeder for moving in the right direction. Her current litter is miles above when she was breeding the even-more-extreme version for show. Good for her, and good for her for recognizing and respecting your opinion.
ReplyDeleteI have shown some of my dogs to championships, and if I ever breed, I will ignore what's favored in the show ring and breed for health, longevity, great temperament, and low COI.
I must say, this is a fantastic response, full of common sense, and also with the health of the animal as a priority, and not the pocket of a greedy Cruella De'Ville style breeder.
DeleteMore people should take note, the same as a genetically impaired human, to continue having babies, would be harmful to the baby child adult, throughout it's life. Therefore welfare and health should be top priority.
DO NOT FORGET, besides the look of a dog, health HAS to be paramount, WHO WANTS AN ILL UNHEALTHY DOG, with unnatural and unnecessary wrinkles, with poor eyesight, and increased risk of harmful skin conditions.
Ines is commendably doing an amazing job, and although I am heavily involved in Rescue Dogs, and very rarely ever support ANY breeders, I will support any dog and animal breeder who has as much common sense and cares as much for the animal and future generations of the animal as Ines does... Congratulations Ines. :)
Thank you Sky, Thank you Dog Whisperer, its very kind of you both x
DeleteMy sharpei went blind at 8 years old before he died at 9. O have a new lilac sharpei puppy now and his eyes look like hes struggles to keep them open .will pinning them jelp him from going blind later on in life?
Delete"And, in my opinion, this breed is too inbred and has too many inherent health problems (notably Familial Shar-pei Fever) to be able to justify breeding it at all."
ReplyDeleteWhat do you suggest instead, that they be condemned to extinction so posterity will have nothing of this breed but pictures in a history book?
I commend this breeder for swimming against the current. The puppies look like puppies instead of elephant scrotums. If a few more Shar Pei breeders go in the same direction, progress will start to be made.
So long as the dog shows reward suffering, dog will suffer, and so will the families who buy them.
DeleteIts a manmade breed and if it was not bred any more or good forbid cross bred the world would not spin off its axis.
DeleteLoads of types and breeds have been lost and mainly because of the KC closed off register.
Did you know there used to be loads of different Cocker Spaniels ?, in fact loads of spaniel breeds and types and they where healthy and fit for function, we even had two english type water retrieving spaniels but the KC put them all under the cocker gave them a standard and wiped out a whole swathe of types and breeds and more importantly genetic variation as opposed to genetic exaggeration.
the KC does not stop anyone from breeding dogs of any type.. so why blame them for the extinction of the spaniels you write about you could have kept breeding the type you prefer.. no problem..You give the KC too much credit .."they" didn't wipe out anything.. the breeders themselves did that..
DeleteAnonymous 18:00 I am breeding the type I prefer.
DeleteUnfortunately people trusted the KC thinking they where the way to breed them and before I was born, all these types where already gone and the genetic variations.
Most of these spaniels where bred by breeders on big country estates or dog dealers who showed dogs as well, so they thought it in their benefit to breed to the KC directive and it would add value to the offspring, so the KC lumping all cocker type spaniels together with one standard and closing the registry caused these types and breeds to die out because of the KC cult of purism made it of no value to breed other types. You have to remember its Victorian Britain dogs where every day business and people selling them and showing them where called dog dealers and it was seen as a career and the dogs changed hands for big money even by todays standards and all estates had an array of hunting dogs. It became the hallmark of eletism for dogs to be registered with the KC and then to be able to ask a big price for them. The KC are very much to blame for losing so many breeds or should I say types.
Anonymous 18:00 I'm not that old, so unfortunately the spaniel breeds where wiped out around 150 years ago when the KC said all these spaniels would come under the one standard of the Cocker Spaniel. At this time people thought the KC where the one to follow and by breeding as told the dogs would even be better than what they had been breeding. Life is full of choices and I guess most made the wrong one and blindly have followed the purist cult of the KC. So I still blame the KC because even when they knew purism does not work they still push the purist cult.
DeleteThis one of the issues which must be dealt with before setting up any registry change based on expanded gene pools.
DeleteThe answer is easy to understand, but it requires re-enculturing if it is applied to existing purebred breeders, instead of new dog breeders or pet-dog breeders who are not part of the show scene.
The answer is that the popular sire/dam/breeder MUST be dealt with BEFORE and COMPLETELY - PRIOR TO blending the gene pools.
Failure at this will doom the new expanded gene pools to shrinking into another little gene puddle, and without the option to go back to the starting line.
Like it not, people are already understanding the collapse of the "respect the established controllers of dog culture" and are breaking out of the old outdated, and admittedly non-functioning, mold.
So doing nothing is not an option - that is, even if you decide to do nothing and paddle around your favorite gene puddle until it dries up, other people are already trying new ways - ways which to work out in the long run, require certain paths to be taken which short-term breeders can't use on their own.
"Pandas are a nature-made breed and if it was not bred anymore... the world would not spin off its axis."
DeleteSomething being natural or man-made does not give it any objective value over anything else. The vast majority of species that ever evolved are extinct. That doesn't mean we should be apathetic about species/breeds and extinction risks because 'that's just the way it goes'. Pretty much all of the animal and plant life we encounter in everyday life is man-made. If it all went extinct there would be very little to eat and certainly no animals for companions.
How does the saying go? The longest march must start with the first step. Something like that. I'm glad to read that Ines has been able to find her way out of the dog show cult-ure, and breed better Shar Pei.
ReplyDeleteThank you, i am only trying, and i am pleased with the results, I dont think that I am better or worst then anyone. I must say that the KC backed me up and praised me for the pups. I am gratefull to all that helped me, as I need guidance, i dont think I know everything, never will. Believe me I do love my meat mouth's but if i think that i can give them a healthier , happier , longer life , why not? Is that bad? If any of you knows of a female red fawn with excellent eyes , moderate with healthy parents and grand parents, and good temperament, willing to sell to me to join my program, please let me know. I love all shar peis, all colors and types and I love the wrinkles , but more then all that i love my guys and i dont wish to produce ill pups, so thanks Jemima, as you pointed me in the right direction. We have to be open minded, listen to others, thats how we learn, grow and improve, ourselves and things around us. I am not a bully nor i respond to that, and I am certainly sad and shocked with the rudness and bullying that I have been getting due to try to breed healthier dogs!!!!!! What i have been called and put through on FB, is just unfair and awful...... Anyway, I believe there is a reason for everything and for all the love my dogs give to me , this is a way of giving back. A very small token x
DeleteIt is not just show breeders that breed for this,a family member bought a shar pei x rottie cross and they loved the extra wrinkle. The dog has already had two failed operations for cherry eye. The breeder has never stepped foot in a show ring and jist used a friends dog on their shar pei bitch. Terrible unethical breeding.
ReplyDeleteOh and to add the cross looked a lot like these new puppies too.
ReplyDeleteShar Pei crosses always look alot like Ines' puppys. That is because the cross breed modifies the excessive breed traits of the Shar Pei.
DeleteBravo Ines!!! So pleased with the new direction of your breeding program. Definitely a good start. We too have been working the last couple of years to acquire Traditional lines to improve the breed here in the US and have been also receiving criticism from the show community for these plans. It will take time to make a difference in the overall health with this breed but this breed IS worth saving.
ReplyDelete...and You will get Your Traditional line, JL, I promise You will, even sometimes good things take longer time... ;-)
DeleteThe wildest thing about Alarcao's pups is that despite the lack of crippling wrinkles and bad eyelids, they still are undeniably Shar-Pei! Proof that you can sacrifice some of the worse physical features of a breed and still have a dog that is still easily identifiable as the breed.
ReplyDeleteI think Alarcao's pups look like purebred Shar Pei, and the show-type dog looks like a side-show version of the breed.
DeleteGreat to hear that Ines is breeding away from this exaggeration but care must be taken, as in trying to breed for less wrinkles she may well will find she will be breeding from an even more decreased gene pool within a gene pool already suffering the results of lack of genetic variation to acheive less wrinkles and could inadvertantly cause other problems because I imagine there is not a lot of this breed left now without this really extreme exaggeration.
ReplyDeleteI found in trying to breed for a longer nose and to breed away from bracyhcephalic skull the genetic pool for breeding away from this in the breed was so small you risked breeding other problems into your dogs, so the option of cross breeding was the one I decided to take.
Good for you Anon 1246,
DeleteBeing a good breeder often envolves tough choices. Breeding show dogs is a downhill run - they are so common.
I'm glad to find other people who refuse to ruin their dogs, but most people will follow the lead sheep over the cliff. This is why it is so important that those who run the dog shows, breed clubs, and kennel clubs understand, and bother themselves to change the judging, breed standards, and purebred culture.
you clearly have not met reputable breeders have you ? all the breeders i have met at shows and via social media have never tacked there dogs eyes. i also handle for a top shar pei breeder and shes never had problems with eyes. get your facts right before posting somthing like this.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12:50 Clearly you underestimate the propensity for humans to lie to you.
DeleteDo you really think a breeder is going to openly admit they doctor pups like above. When they can do it at that age and later it is hard to detect that they have had work done because if they did tell you (and I am relying on the fact you would do the honest thing and report it to the KC) or the KC they would not be allowed to be shown.
Can you explain why you wish to show dogs with wrinkles ? The wrinkles serve no purpose other than to predispose the dog to health issues, so why do they breed dogs with this disability ? Why ? Why ? Why ?
Would you say a breeder is reputable who breeds an exaggeration into its breed that it knows will predispose it to health issues ? If your answer is no , then we have to ask, can any Sher Pei breeder be called reputable ?
I have known Ines for 7 years now and and before you start calling her a liar you need to get your facts straight with proof to back your self up before you start stating she is a liar , as the above report above states it is true and I know for a fact these puppies eyes have not been touched and she should be praise for the hard work and commitment she is putting into her breeding program and for the breed I myself do breed and im also been doing this for a couple of years now if you are a good breeder or vet specialised in the breed yes you will be able to see if their eyes have been tacked as it leaves scars around the eyes or Entropion and yes the vet and the breeder will notify the Kennel club if they are reputable breeders and to tell you the truth the kennel club is nothing but a money grabbing business they do not care about what people are doing to the breed or health issues they should be making tighter rules about the breed and tests to help prevent this in my opinion you should be targeting them and not her for trying to improve the breed , just because a dog is wrinkly doesn't mean its disabled or going to have major health issues a dog can be wrinkly and have no health issues or doesn't mean its disabled? I have been breeding for 10 years now and if done responsibly and breed from good dams and sires with good eyes no Shar pei fever and no health issues and lines from both of them you will have great results as to the wrinkles sides of things it a part of the shar peis body and face even going back to years ago and old fotos they still have wrinkles in pictures but they weren't as much as what we see these days through excessive breeding over so many years this is what they have come to in answer to the last questions yes they are reputable breeders out their I my self know for that for a fact we are when someone comes to purchase a puppies everything that can and could go wrong we will tell and explain it to them before and make sure they know what they are doing and letting them selfs in for if we fell they aren't then its simple we will refuse to sell the puppy end of story if the person still wants to go ahead well its their decisison I think you should e targeting the Back Yard breeders that are out their and not the good one their is no guarantee that any puppy will have any health issues but if the person decides to get one after its all explained and know about it its a free world they will still go out and buy one.
DeleteInes Alacrao well done and carry on with what you are doing don't let people like this get to you when they haven't got a clue what they are talking about have you had a shar pei ? have you breed them ? if the answer is no that says it all Shar Peis are not disabledddddddddddddddd? they are loyal loving dogs the best breed about that needs improvement by great breeders like you
Anonymous 17:35 Sorry but you have not read that my reply is to Anonymous 12:50 and is not implying that Ines is a liar.I think you need to calm down a reread the above.
DeleteIf something makes it hard for you to see and in some cases causes blindness that is a disability and dogs with disabilities can be loyal and loving dogs, that is not the debate here.
The debate is the fact that breeders are happy to supply the demand for exaggeration, as you so eloquently describe. Just because you tell someoner all the problems with the breed and the person still wants the dog, does not put you on some moral high ground, in fact shows lack of morals, as you should not be breeding them to suffer in the first place,but thats called having a conscience.
Because you want wrinkles means you have closed down the genetic pool to get this and if you think that's okay to risk a dogs health for, then I might as so go and head my head against a brick wall.
I can see that now didn't read the above or before I do not breed sick dogs or have I ever had one of my puppies back for any health issues and also I can go to sleep at night with a healthy conscience thank god how does that show lack of morals and of course you would have to jump staright away and think im breeding unhealthy dogs by stating That im not putting myself on a high moral ground either I would never breed from a sick dog or a dog that needed entriopion both sire or dam as I do believe it will be passed on to pups what I meant by the part wich I stated by telling the people that buy a dog from me about all of the shar peis health problems is to educate them even if I refuse to sell them is to prevent them from buying one that has and I make sure that they have done the research into the breed their are somany people that dont think or reaserch the bree and just because they are full of wrinkles and like the look of them go out and buy them with out any further education on their and are sure I didn't say im breeding unhealthy dogs you are not going to hit your head against a brick wall either I know what you mean by the wrinkles but some people like the excessive wrinkles and would breed to even obtain more its discuting I think I agree with you on that people do risk the animals health to do that I understand you on this matter , rather than trying to improve that that's what this breeder is doing but that doesn't mean that everyone does that and yes they are not reputable breeders or responsible if they do that wich you know they are not
Deletethis subject came up on an international dog judge fb list not long ago and there most certainly were several breeders who posted that tacking was totally OK. Other posters were shocked, as I was.
DeleteWhy are all these replies anonymous? Does no one have the courage to put his or her name to her opinions?
I come on here as anonymous, as I am a breeder that has taken the cross breed route and if I put my name here it would make it hard for me to aquire dogs into our breeding program.
DeleteI wish I could but unfortunately that's the way the pure breeders work, if they find out you are not still in their cult they try to shut you down and you only have to read comments on here to understand the prejudice we are up against.
".....breed from good dams and sires with good eyes no Shar pei fever and no health issues and lines from both of them....." I beg to suggest that there are very few Shar Pei that meet these exacting criteria. If you continue to breed from the few there are....the breed will be in a worse condition very soon.
DeleteAnd...yes....why anonymous? If you feel you are a great breeder then post your name!!!!
Well done for producing these puppies. They have lovely eyes but I will never say that the lack of tacking a puppy's eyes is a reason to rejoice! There are far more health issues affecting this breed that seem to be neglected by the breed club.
Why is there no requirement for hip scoring, elbow scoring, eye testing prior to breeding. You cannot with any certainty know that you are producing healthy puppies if you do no health screening.
Personally I think there are far too many Shar Pei being bred and if breeders can say they carry out these health tests it would give more confidence to purchasers.
I think this is a very sad breed indeed! The show people are not breeding for overwrinkled dogs now and I applaud that...but there are some seriously unhealthy dogs out there. No ethical breeder can realistically produce puppies from this breed thinking they will be healthy.....
Thank You Annie, I agree with you, this is just a very very tiny step, the kidneys and liver are the major problems, but at least if everyone makes an effort the breed will improve. I would never say that they will be healthy, but if we direct our breeding programs into a more moderate , balanced shar pei, like the tradicional, and only breed from healthy guys ( i shouldnt have to say this) we are doing our best xx
DeleteSo great to hear Ines has made this important and impressive step into breeding healthier ( and better looking Shar-Pei ). That's what I call a true breed enthusiast :)
ReplyDeleteThe new puppies look amazing and I wish Ines all the best in her future goals.
I agree. I have a shar pei from ines with good health and a great temperament, unlike other shar pei I have come across from other breeders. These are the breeders that need to be exploited on these blogs....Evolving health problems through their own greed. I see that these very people are jealous of this intelligent, caring lady. I would recommend anyone to purchase a puppy from ines, rather than risking the other cow boys out there! Keep up your fantastic work for the breed ines.
DeleteWhat a truly great breeder................. The same breeder that emailed me wanting my puppy bitch "because of her colour" and wanted to do a bank transfer and send a taxi to collect her.... Needless to say that didn't happen!
ReplyDeleteYou must have the wrong breeder my dear that would not be her that's for sure why would she send a taxi if she drives herself and ownes a car that's doesn't make sense instead of hiding anonymous why not put your name so we can see who you truly are and answer this to you I think a lot of people are doing this anonymous so they wont be dismasked on her it seems they are and making nasty acusations that are false all through jeaolousy that she has got on her rather then them as shes taking a lot of slack off the show people already and others ..............................
DeleteWell, dogs like the pups in the end will be obviously less prone to entropion.
ReplyDeleteAre you sure that ear canal stenosis is a result of breeding for very small ears and not the mucinosis itself? Mucinosis cause thickening of the outer skin, but it also thicken the skin of nostrils, which causes nostril stenosis, and it thicken the upper airways, which enlarges soft palate.
Wow what breed did she cross them with?
ReplyDeleteWow~way to make a snide comment.
Deleteoh my god you people its a Chihuahua ridiculous of course they are shar peis you should of gone to spec savers
DeleteAnon 1408 has brought up a touchy but increasingly spoken about topic: can breeders of show type pugs, pekes, English bulldogs, and other breeds with extreme show type, be reputable, ethical, moral, or even sane by normal thinking?
ReplyDeleteOr are they competive to the point that they will harm their pets, and the futures of the pets they sell for generation to come, just for a win at a dog show - external validation of their worth?
And have these competitive leaders encultured a herd of naive gullable followers who can no longer see what is in front of them? Whose minds are so full of dog show propoganda that they will not see the suffering which they are causing their dogs, and they can not acknowledge the pain in the voices of the people who have bought a puppy from them?
not a man made breed look back into its history , shar pei have been around since 16th century, but why would anyone listen as looking at the add, the advice is from one of the worst puppy farmers in the uk, as for showing 1 show and only one in class, then bragged qualified for crufts, as for health, thats a laugh, she had breed more ill dogs than anyone else, she is not a show breeder she is a colour breeder to make money
ReplyDeleteAll breeds are "man made", it's just how far you make them that is the question this blog addresses.
DeleteI'm confused did God make them 2000 years ago or did they just appear out of a puff of smoke 500 years ago, you Shar-pei buffs need to start reading from the same hymn sheet.
DeleteSky is right in her opinion. Someone who has proven that she actually loves the breed, realised that there was a major problem and is trying to rectify it. When JH raised the topic originally, it would seem that some of the comments on that blog were heard, and the SharPei's in Ines's life are much better for it. A pity she is the only one swimming upstream, but when people want a SP but not the hefty vet bills then they will turn to her for a puppy. But she will have to be careful because as someone said the gene pool that she wants to draw down from maybe running out. Restraint in her breeding programme will have to excercised. Whoever 29 Nov 12:50 is wake up. In a breed where it is impossible to detect corrective surgery for a horrible condition do you really believe (and I feel awful for saying it) that the top breeders in SPs are going to openly admit health problems. I bought two puppies who both developed Entropian, and guess what when I went back to the breeder was told that they were the first ever bred by her - really? I had a litter that had 2 Entropians and 2 HDs, when I talked to the stud dog owner was told that it was the bitches fault (ridiculous statement considering I was "line breeding/now known as inbreeding and abhorrant"). I was advised to keep quiet about it! One of the bitches brought in was beautiful, she won a lot but when entropian was diagnosed I withdrew her from showing and obviously breeding, a very powerful, well respected person in the breed asked me what had happened to her, I told her, I was told about a vet who would do such a good job if I had her operated on again that I could carry on showing! I was outraged, the person couldn't understand why I was so cross, because if it had been her bitch she would have had a litter from her!!!! Later when I saw the person again with the "replacement" puppy (that I paid full price for btw) that also developed Entropian, I was shunned because I had been public with why both of the bitches were withdrawn, their breeding etc etc It wouldn't take an amoeba to realise that the bloodline was tainted big time and that more and more cases were going to come to light. Guess what, the breed is now it's knees and it breaks my heart and the breeders are all in total denial. They are currently doing a survey on bloat and I can't wait to see the presentation, whether breeding is shown, number of cases bred per breeder etc etc. I'm putting a bet down that says they will be back slapping because there are hardly any cases!! Despite 40 years of involvement with the breed and loving them and being proud of them, I no longer have one to love. Possibly similar scenario as 29 Nov's client's dogs, hopefully not, but whilst ever there is money to be made from dogs, and I guess SP's equals tens of pounds per wrinkle there will be denial. And I guess your client is way up there in the echelons of power within the breed and is doing very well to be able to afford a professional handler, and to afford it I guess they have lots of litters/studs etc to pay for it, and you of course, will be receiving recompense for duties undertaken, so I rest my case. Round and round it goes. Can you imagine how uncomfortable it is for a dog to have it's eyelids sutured because I can and it must be really painful. The skin is growing at such a rate, do they continually remove them and so on and so on and so on. It's cruelty at it's absolute worse AGAIN!
ReplyDeleteThis tends to happen when a breed of anything becomes a show breed: it can slip into becoming a side-show breed, the living object of a breeder's cult.
DeleteThat reads a bit extreme, doesn't it? But look at what has happened to some of the show breeds - not just dogs, but cats, fish, horses, goats, and other animals.
Dogs must be bred for some useful function - and they must be graded on a pass/fail score on multiple tests - that is to hinder the tendency for popular sires, to get more small breeders instead of large puppy mill/farm kennels, and to prevent behaviorally extreme breeding.
So, we need a major shift in dog culture - in show culture. Even a collapse of shows without a replacement would yeild better results than running the ever quickly shrinking gene puddles into mud puddles.
By "mud puddles" I mean gene pools so tight that you can't breed out of them for health or normal behavior, because the needed genes or needed variation of genes has been lost to the gene pool.
Bet it dose not go on
ReplyDeleteAnon 1624, look at old photos of the breed before it was imported. A better question might be "What could show breeders have possibly crossed the Shar Pei with to get such a wrinkled dog? a pair of well used, seldom washed pajamas?"
ReplyDeleteMost likely, people simply select more and more extreme types for breeding, and then inbred on these dogs.
Or maybe it starts with judges awarding increasingly more extreme dogs, and then breeders just breeding to whichever dogs are winning at the shows.
Or maybe a puppy is born with an second mutation which amplifies the original mutation, and judges feel "more is better". Because Shar Pei puppies were much more wrinkled than adults, maybe the second mutation was one that further babyfied that dog (many outcrosses to western breeds would have caused this!)
After awhile, breeders and judges have come to expect adult Shar Pei to be as wrinkled as puppies - this was not originally the case. So which line of Shar Pei are the purebreds? The original Asian type or the western show type?
It is as if somebody said that desert bred Arabian Horses weren't pure because they don't look like some newer version of a western show type.
(Although in the horses there were probally several desert bred varieties already before western culture started to breed their version of them).
Thank you Jemima and everyone, the pups are not cross breed , but the grandparents were very moderate/twiners with non entropion eyes, and larger ears.
ReplyDeleteThe sire and Dam were born with good eyes, no tacks needed, nothing like this pups, but better then the average pei.
I can understand your thoughts on ear canal stenosis as a result of Muchinosis but my experience shows that is not the true , but the breeding for very small ears .All my guys with larger ears never had ear infections and need less cleaning
Now I want to thank everyone for your comments, everyone is entitled to an opinion so i respect the ones that are stating that i am a lyer. I shall not respond to that as rudeness and fights are not for me.
Also I am doing this for my dogs, my breed and thats what my conscience tells me to do. Everyday I think my family, my dogs and my friends, and in this case I have to thank Janet L Morgan,Ann Cardon and Maggie Allen for sharing their knowledge with me and guide me, and the ones that reasure me when i get insulted and put down.
There is still a long way to go, but this is the start, and together we can do it. This little guy's eyes show it!!! I am very happy that my little efforts make such a difference on my best friends quality of life :) Nice wide open beautifull healthy eyes!!!! All positive tips and feedback is wellcome. I am always, and forever will be learning.
Keep Healthy and Happy xx <3
Ines
Ines I was not inferring you where a liar in my post at 14:08. It was in answer to the post above it from someone stating Jemima has not meet any reputable breeders and was not aimed at you.
DeleteI am sorry if it has caused you any distress and apologise that people have not understood it was not aimed at you.
I commend you for what you are doing and it seems there are though witch hunters out here wanting to burn us both at the stake.
Good luck to you Ines. I wish you well.
Thank you for sharing the photos of your puppies, 10/10 for bravery and another 10/10 for trying to improve the lives of your breed.
DeleteH
Anon 1648
ReplyDeleteYou forgot the other overriding reason...........money
hihihi you make me laugh money of course you would bring that into the matter ok then add up vet checks, vet costs , food, time ,commitment microchips ,kc paperwork training them puppies are hard work maybe you should give it a try to see what profit you make ............................ do you work for free and then give it away its not about that but improving them and trying to cause less suffering on the puppies and familys that buy them but preventing it wear other breeders don't give care weather they need to go to vets weather they are breeding from a mother that has has had entriopion surgery or their or eyes tacked or Have sharpie fevers or Kidney failure they are the one who care about anything but the money they are the ones who are giving the breed a bad name and health issues .....................
DeleteThese are definitely not pure bred sharpei. They don't even look like a sharpei. The breed is 2000 years old and not man made and in sure the original people all over the world who rescued this breed back from the point of extinction would be insulted that this breeder calls these sharpei. How uneducated some of you sound. Please study the history of the breed before you pass negative comments. The GOOD sharpei breeders who produce good examples of the breed do not have eyes tacked.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. The breed is "not man made"?
DeleteWow. So where's the population of wild wrinkly-eyed wolves that self-selected into the shar-pei?
Call the scientists, we've discovered a second domestication event!
Or are shar-pei people keeping wild animals as pets?
This is really incredible news. Glad we have people who've studied the history of the breed (subspecies?) to enlighten us.
Actually many of us have looked into the history of the breed~extensively. They look very much like a traditional Shar Pei. They look less than the modern Shar Pei that was "rescued...back from the point of extinction", i.e. the breed in being rescued was Americanized into the freak of nature it is now.
DeleteApparently your the one sounding uneducated.
All domestic dogs are manmade. These dogs where bred by men because dogs and humans where around way before this breed was established around 2000 years ago or 400 years ago depending on which history you believe. You can't even understand that all domestic dog breeds originate from man breeding them.
DeleteThere's no wild dogs that look like this, so where did it come from 2000 years ago ?
2000 years ago, are we talking to a creationest. God made the Shar-pei, so they are manmade.
DeleteYOU wouldn't breed blue shar pei if they really understood genetics! Blue gene carries alopaecia as well as other defects such as deafness (white gene).... I wonder how honest your really being and not just grabbing money from unsuspecting new owners.
ReplyDeleteI think you are confused, though maybe your post was just poorly worded. The "blue gene" (properly called dilution) is associated with CDA (Color Dilution Alopecia), but it is unrelated to the various white patterns which are mutations at other locations. At least, I think that is what you are referencing with the term "white gene". Whatever was meant, the connection with white patterning in dogs and deafness is not yet fully understood.
DeleteBut perhaps more important is that while dilution (blue) is clearly involved in CDA, a recent study (2009) showed that it is not the sole cause. That is, just the presence of the blue dilute does not mean the dog will have the problem. It is suspected that a modifier is involved, which would explain why it is extremely common in the dilutes of some breeds (like Dobermans) and not as common in others. That is an important discovery, especially for breeds like the Weimaraner where a dilute color is considered definitive. For anyone interested, that particular paper is - at least at the moment - available without a journal subscription.
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/100/suppl_1/S75.full.pdf+html?sid=b34d8f61-d953-4baa-9bc8-61bc4b4e99a0
There have been rapid advances in the understanding of color genetics in animals, and this has the potential to give breeders new tools to achieve their goals while avoiding producing animals with lifelong problems. It would be a shame if only half-hearted attempts were made to truly understand what are often complex genetic situations, because the information was seen primarily as a tool for attacking other breeders and their choices.
Thank you Leslie. My coat colour genetics knowledge is wanting, so I hadn't been able to address the claim that this colour in Shar-pei is associated with skin problems (well, over and above the existing skin problems they often have). A quick Google did not turn up any specific specific refs.
DeleteWeimaraners, though they look grey, are actually liver. Dilute brown, not dilute black. There do exist dilute black Weims, they present as looking dark slate grey. So, the light mouse grey, silver grey Weim is a brown dog and the darker dog is the grey dog, or you can call it blue.
DeleteThis is from a site that is pro-blue weim, but there's a picture with a typical mouse grey weim next to the dark slate weim. When they are together, you can see just how brown the mouse grey weim is.
http://www.blueweimaranertoday.com/articles/genetic-study-of-blue-weimaraners/
This breeder is a well known puppy farmer to all. The sad fact is she just wants your money. She's producing bad health that will cost you lots of money. She's well discussed along with all the other puppy farmers in the UK. Go and buy from a breeder who has a breeding program that will produce quality sharpei not one that only needs your cash. This is her living not her hobby.
ReplyDeleteOh, what a witchy lot you Anons are... But please know that it says a whole heap more about you than it does about Ines.
DeleteInstead of sticking the knife in, why not tell us what you think of these pups' eyes? Better - or not?
Jemima
You have missed the point totally Jemima. Those eyes are no different to what the good breeders produce. The rest of the health of her dogs is the problem. We all have good eyes in our good breeding programs. Your report is all about what the puppy farmers are producing not the good reputable breeders so we do not want to be associated with people like Ines. It's a shame your report makes her look good because she'll probably get more puppy sales out of it to more unsuspecting customers.it's the bad people in our breed that you should only target in a negative way not making puppy farmers look like they are doing good. Bad eyes come from bad breeders and puppy farmers who have untacked eyes should not be credited. Those pictures are typically what we would expect to see from a puppy farmer, poor quality.
DeleteI AGREE with you Jemina all Anos when they are breeding them selfs this says it all how they work as they are so 2 faced they wont even put their name down here haven't got the guts to do it as im sure they will be exposed straight away now they are saying shes a puppy farmer the one that said that is a show ring person and thinks hes the only good breeder in the uk weres the evidence to do all this it and about the colours shes being attacked since this has gone up jeaolousy all the way as the hate gang do to everyone that does not show and breeds shar peis of other colours other than the red fawns
DeleteExactly Jemima! The contination of missing the forest for the trees.
Deletemr anonymous have you ever meet her or seen the breeder in question or have proof medical bills from the vets or bought a dog from her to back this acusation up , she has got a breeding program and its not her way of making her living I wont go into what she does for a living on here as you have nothing to do with you , you say that everyone else that breeds sharpeis is a puppy farmer im sure you are a breeder yourself just from the post and show could you answer this for me put your comments with proof before you open it.................
DeleteThis is supposed to be a blog were you are able to show how to improve pedigree dogs and to be helping each other and finding a way to improve the breed and working together I can see who posted this wanted to make everyone aware that their can be improvements made and inform and educate people on how to work towards it .But instead its turned into a hunt on someone who is trying to do all this and improve the shar pei breed the post was written by someone else she;s simply trying to finding ways to improve this troubled breed nothing else if this is the type of people that are breeding with this breed no wonder its all messed up this says a lot about what the people are really like to do with the shar pei breed
DeleteAnon @ 19:44: "Those pictures are typically what we would expect to see from a puppy farmer, poor quality."
DeleteCould you explain why you think they are poor quality?
Jemima
you are the one who causes all this jemima . your are full of rubbish !
ReplyDeleteCould be worse, it could be shit.
DeleteAnd your point Louise is ?
Jemina I was so right all Jealousy that its not their name on here and they have got the hump defenatly a breeder , mr perfect, my dogs are the best and everyone is a puppy farmer especially in this mans eyes why not confront her in person than writing anon rather than hiding they haven't got the guts to do so and she can answer your questions
ReplyDelete.I hope this might make some think who are accusing Ines of cross breeding (although I have no problem with that either)
ReplyDelete"Man-imposed characteristics, however, like the flower colours and forms selected by the plant breeder, usually do not perturb the deep-set genetic variability systems of the species. Most such changes are reversible when a less restricted gene pool is restored. The 'balance' system appears to be retained by natural selection, which, perhaps paradoxically, pervades most systems of artificial selection."
--Hampton L. Carson, The Genetics of the Founder Effect, 1983
Ines breeding shows when genetic variation is widened it will select away from exaggeration.
Well done Ines, just think whilst there here bad mouthing us, there giving some poor other bugger a rest. I got broad shoulders and I could do with some fertilser for the garden.
There are a lot of Anons here - it is easier than dealing with any weird replies.
ReplyDeleteI want to add that I am happy to read about a breeder who has changed to breeding for health instead of show wins. It seems to me that this change frightens some of the old breeders who want show type to be more important than health.
I don't know if anyone else is confused because of this bickering. If the anons are all show people with their own breeding plans then they have proven that the KC needs to patrol the Shar Pei rings and monitor what exactly is going on in the breed. The KC needs to take control and stop these practices immediately. On the other hand if these anons know something factual then they should inform the rest of us and not allude/imply/suggest that Ines is running a puppy farm that produces sick puppies and has a known bad reputation. If they are just being malicious they need to be careful because of possible litigation by Ines. If I were interested in a Shar Pei, I would prefer one with open eyes and less wrinkles. If Ines is passing these puppies as pure bred and they are proven to be otherwise after somebody does a DNA test and can prove parentage then that would be a matter that she would have to resolve. I personally, as previously stated, from the stock shown, feel that she is swimming upstream against "purist" breeders who want to stick to their tens of pounds per wrinkle policy. Just exactly the sort of reaction from pure bred dog breeders that are so blind to the cruelty they are causing they will feel threatened and lash out, not unexpected. Goodness there are some nasty people in our society and it seems that some of them are involved in dogs. It would be interesting to know exactly what the truth is and I am sure I am not alone but in the meantime if Ines is genuine then she has my backing all the way and hope that she doesn't get overwhelmed by hostility because she is trying to keep the SP breed alive in as healthy condition as possible.
ReplyDeleteGeorgia get real there is no chance of litigation, jemima often gets her facts not quite right and she is safe so I really would not put to much on litigation.
DeleteAnon 08:57 30 Nov,The litigation would not be directed a JH, it would be people like yourself who are in danger of legal action. Slander, libel, character assisnation are all areas in which Ines could possibly be successful if she chose to go down that road. You and your other anon family who have been so rude and unkind need to be more thoughtful in your reactions towards people who want the best for dogs and will strive against your determination to scare them off. Intimidation and bullying is sadly how many people see resolution to achieving when they want somebody else to obey them. Have a chat with your like minded fellows and look at your dogs and maybe then undertand that Ines and hopefully many more breeders will see that cruelty to achieve "breed standard" has to stop.
DeleteNo my love I do not breed any of the breeds jh is fixated on. I think the only rude person here is you who is talking to and lumping every kc/ show breeder together. All your posts are always on the slight hysterical vein. You wilk always get shit breeders be them kc or byb but if you stop the show breeder hate campaign you will see there is many of us who breed good healthy long lived dogs.
DeleteKeep up anon 09:14 1 Dec, I have never been rude about or to good dog breeders, however breeders who continue to knowingly, deliberately breed dogs to suffer will receive no sympathy from me, or any other intelligent person. If you really have read my other contributions you will see that I too showed dogs for some 40 years, to my shame, so your accusation is way off line. Hysterical, maybe, more like passion, passion at the extreme cruelty inflicted on so many different species by extremists who for some reason have a total lack of understanding of the pain they are inflicting. This very afternoon I was at a Christmas Fair and when I came out of the hotel, right in front of me was a bulldog which was having difficulty in walking and breathing. It was only cool yet this dog was struggling, his owner? His bl.... owner just yelled at him to stop sniffing and dragged him along, he realised I was watching and about to say something when he bent down and patted the dog. My point? My point is that if this man treats this poor dog in this way in public, what happens to him at home? The dog was trying to keep up but he just couldn't he was disabled. Poor dog. Hysterical - I don't know but I do know I love dogs and want the best for them, do you?
DeleteAnonymous 09:14 Yes love, as you infer shit happens, some just standby and turn a blind eye or others try to stop it.
DeleteTo the cowardly anons who throw knives of jealousy and spite from behind a mask at one of the rare breeders who are actually focusing on improving the breed's health. YOU are the perfect example of the biggest problem that the purebred dog fancy is facing today.
ReplyDeleteThis breed is fraught with health issues and the direction we are headed with this paradigm of breeding more and more for the very phenotypical traits (wrinkle, meatmouth/padded muzzles) despite the research that clearly tells us are the root cause of this breed's horrific health issues (FSF/SPAID, amyloidosis, chronic ostitis, CM, IBD, etc) has done a great diservice to this breed. Yet every single time someone steps up and tries to do the RIGHT thing and breed away from these health challenging traits, you attack them. You do this because deep down you know that you too should be doing the right thing but the lure of ribbons, titles (and all that goes with it) prevent you from doing what serves the DOGS.
You serve a paradigm, not the dogs...or perhaps some have other motivations. Regardless of why you do this, it is reprehensible as well as counter-productive to the breed. All breeds are a construct created by OUR choices, not by natural selection. This breed has ancient roots but it has been skewed by our phenotypical breeding choices...especially over the last 30+ years...and these choices have NOT served the breed. We need to go back to the roots, back to the basic dog. We are trying to do so within the limitations of the KCs regulations, though opening the registry for new genetic input would likely be more effective...but we all know what a can of worms that would be. Yet as soon as someone does try and serve the breed by moving in a healthier direction, the attacks begin. Sigh! THIS is why breeders doing the right thing are such a rare thing.
What Ines is doing, is what we ALL should be doing...seeking ways to improve our gene pool and the health and function of our breed. The eyes on these puppies are just the one health improvement wthat is obvious now...but what Ines (and the others on this path) are attempting to move towards is potentially much more impactful on the breed's health. Less hyaluronan, less predisposition to SPAID and all its related health problems. This litter is step ONE on a much longer and more challenging path to return this breed to the healthy basic dog that it was until 3 1/2 degades ago.
Any cowardly and spiteful idiot can criticize from behind a mask but it takes real courage to do what Ines is trying to do...KNOWING that she will likely be pilloried for her efforts. I know Ines personally, I know where her heart is on this and why she wants to move in this direction because we have discussed ways to help this breed for years...something we both (and some others too) are frantically trying to do to save the breed that we LOVE. I KNOW what motivations Ines has with this new breeding direction...to help bring this breed back from the genetic cliff they are being driven over by decades of phenotypical breeding choices.
What are YOU doing to actually save this breed? What difficult choices are YOU making for sake of health over ribbones & titles?
Any idiot can claim to have great vreeding practices to and not be doing it for the money, until whether you know she actually showed a lot and didn't just do what the byb do and that is attend the one show a year to legitimize their breeding large amounts of pups. You too should keep a open mind.
DeleteAlso if you have the experience of the uk show ring you would know that we don't even get ribbons. That is a australian practice.
DeleteThe blogpost is about the improvement in Ines' dogs' eyes. No other claims - good, bad or indifferent - are being made here.
DeletePlease keep your responses on-topic.
I have read all of this and just have to say...
ReplyDelete"Your" = belonging to you, as in "Your dog".
"You're" = contraction of "You are", as in "You're an idiot".
"Theirs" = belonging to them, as in "The Shar-pei with sore eyes is theirs".
"There's" = contraction of "There is", as in "There's no justification for breeding deformed dogs."
I don't have entropin, but reading the grammar in this thread is making my eyes bleed.
"Asshole" = Someone who likes to point out grammar or pronunciation mistakes, thinking they are in some way superior in doing so.
DeleteAnother definition of asshole = pedigree/purebred dog breeder who insists on breeding dogs within a paradigm of closed gene pools, thinking that they are in some way superior for doing so!
DeleteOr how about someone who is intolerant of others and the lifestyle they choose?
DeleteAs long as that lifestyle means that a dog has not got to be bred with exaggerrations that serve it no purpose other than to predispose it to health problems or else you are then the asshole.
DeleteYes jh because this is very much on topic.
DeleteIt's ok to be tolerant of deliberate cruelty then is it!!?
DeleteThose puppies remind me a lot of Thai Ridgeback puppies. They will grow into those wrinkles, largely, and they look nothing like the ordinary extreme meat-mouth we tend to see, where the puppies have gigantic, swollen faces and no visible eyes.
ReplyDeleteI agree that breeding Shar-Pei is hard to justify, but didn't you write just a few years ago that breeding for less wrinkles might actually help defeat the breed's worst enemy, Shar-Pei fever/amyloidosis?
I have to say Jemima, that (having been in this breed since the early 80s) that the eyes on these pups are about the nicest I have seen come out of a western (meatmouth) line in at least 20 years. They look more similar to the Traditional Shar Pei. Conformation aside, these eyes are much better structured for function and their placement (being less deepset) as well as the lack of so much excess hyaluronan around the face which means both less weight of wrinkle compromising the eyelid structure as well as less risk for hyaluronan related inflammation which can be a big factor in entropion in this breed. I am very impressed (and even a bit envious...and mine have relatively few eye issues) with what changes Ines has accomplished in so short a time (one generation) from meatmouth lines.
ReplyDeleteOh dear, just look back at what you are saying. What a joke some of you are. End this thread now before you cause the breed any more damage with your nonsense of this disgraceful support for this person. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about and i haven't ever heard of you, saying you have been in the breed for all these years. You need to take a long hard look at the history of sharpei and the fantastic progress it has made from good breeders and then look how far behind the puppy farmers are in their breeding. We all think you are a joke, get a grip people and leave it to the people who care about the dogs and not the money. Don't come back with your silly comments as I won't be looking here again.
ReplyDeleteAny progress you make will be short lived because you have to small a gene pool. You will think you have made progress in one area to find you have caused another problem, that is the nature of pure breeding.
DeleteAny damage being done to these dogs, as firstly they should be seen as dogs is from the purist ideology. Instead of looking at the history why don't you start reading up on genetics and the need for genetic variation and the harm caused by closed gene pools in manmade breeds.
You need to get a grip Anonymous 12:44 . If you care about a dog you would not breed a dog to look like a Sherpei. The look serves no purpose other than to predispose the dog to health issues and these dogs do have health issues and in the next few years will have more, as your health tests deplete its genetic pool even more and that's no joke.
This will fall on deaf ears though I know even if you do read this, but as you say, "I won't be looking here again."
Anon 12:44
DeleteWhy the hell do you want any living creature to look like a Shar Pei? There is no function for these deformities other than to satisfy the warped and deluded idea of canine beauty. It's a pretty sick looking dog. Ugly and extremely unhealthy too. Well done all around on screwing up yet another breed of dog.
I am a breeder but not of the Shar Pei but this blog has interested me, so I took a look at this breeds standard on the KC website and if when breeding a dog the colour of its tongue is part of its breed standard, you just know its going to have serious problems. I wonder what happens to pups with the wrong coloured tongue or eyes to tongue ? Yes, they like the tongue to be colour coordinated to the eyes as well.
ReplyDeleteQuoted from the KC breed standard for the Shar Pei, "Mouth :Tongue, roof of mouth, gums and flews: solid bluish-black is preferred. Solid pink tongue undesirable. Dogs with self-coloured pigment and amber or light brown eyes would be expected to have a lavender tongue."
You think the UK standard is problematic, you should see the AKC standard and the overemphasis they put on the very traits that can cause/contribute not only entropion but also Shar Pei Auto Inflammatory Disease.
Deletehttp://www.akc.org/breeds/chinese_shar_pei/breed_standard.cfm
I've just looked at the Pets4Homes site following a look on the SP club website. There is a notice stating that they are discontinuing their rescue side because of the influx of puppies. They advise breeders to be responsible for the puppies they breed. Anyway looking at the adverts on P4H where astonishingly tacking of eyelids is casually mentioned as if it is a good thing. I find that disgraceful and it highlights that entropian and the meaty mouth (urgh) description is desirable despite the horrible discomfort and cruelty for the puppy. Do you know, I'd seriously like to ask one of these breeders to volunteer and have their eyes tacked oh, just for a week or two, and thereafter ask them what the experience was like and whether they would like to repeat it. The KC can check this site, they can contact the breeders and they should stop it immediately.
ReplyDeleteGeorgina But Kc Don't care they are only in it for money its a BUSINESS they say that people should breed responsible and follow their rules quite frankly could anyone tell me they do they check up on the breeder or puppy that are born or anyone that is a kc accredited Breeder? how do they know the are following their rules they don't ? if you were to buy a puppy that had any of the problems of the sharpie breed eyes ,FSF,wrinkles ,Skin and kidneys etc and notified them what will they do ? do will they investigate it ? no is your answer people will carry on doing it as long as they know they will get kc registration documents from them and wont be stop or change the way they are being breed and yes they are to blame if you ask me this goes for any other breed to. A major change should be made by kc from their behalf and they should be thinking of any dogs health first and checking on the breeders to before the pound signs that's all the care about how much profit they make a year . Sharpei breeders are breeding from a dam and Sire that have all the problems that we aware and mentioned before then of course the puppies will develop any of them either straight away or at an later stage of and their lives they should be making rules such as the sire and the dam before they have plan a litter or plan a matting asked to provide blood tests for kidney function to them for evidence ,if they have had any entropian or eye tacking them selfs in their history and ask for proof to be sent to them if they have they will not , they shouldn't be allowed to register any litter and advice the Breeder to neuter or Spayde or issue them no paperwork , any one that applies to register a litter should be seen by a veterinary and checked for all the conditions and ask for written proof , if they pass and have none them then they will be aloud to proced with the planned mating just to make sure and prevent so many problems with the future litter and suffering of the puppies but they should be asking to see the proof and have evidence witch they don't as every one knows can they say that the breeder is responsible? they shouldn't as what they care about is the money the make from each registerd puppie . Secondly when the litter arrives making sure that they are checked by a veterinary at 4 weeks and 8 weeks before they leave and vets should be making notes on certificates about anything or health issues witch the puppy as had or could have in the future for example eye tacking ,fevers ,Blood test to check kidney function so on ,once this is done breeders should then have to provide this to them and the family's that will be having them by doing this they will keep a record of things and the people who end up buying them will decide weather they would want carry on and to know for sure that no lies are being told from the breeders even though they advice The breeder to write out a contract now as any one knows what good is a puppy contract its a bit of paper and is worth nothing legally its paper, and its not worth anything if the buyer has problems do they tell people this ?does it make a person a responsible breeder? No is the answer the kc are to blame to for this if tighter rules were made by themselfs to their would be so much less suffering out their and better Breeding methods the do not care about the family's that will have to pay out thousands of pounds in medical care?,They do not care about the dogs and support the best interest in their welfare ? , They do not care about the Suffering this will cause the dogs? Now could anyone tell me does this make them better than a BYB breeder ? NO it makes me so angry that poor ines is on here being slaughterd Bullyed for trying to improve this wonderful breed and improve the issues witch they do know about but choose to ignore them, the people that have been causing all this to Ines should Slaughtering ,Exposing, Bullying The Kennel Club pick on them they have so much worse than what she has they are to to blame
Deletemy wonderful breed are not all problem's, i have had pei for coming up 20 yrs, 4 gens of untouched eyes, wrinkled and less wrinkled, if people are careful and look into lines they use, they will breed good health and good eyes, not all pei suffer as some would have you believe, i have long lived lines and have also produced problem's and like a responcible breeder i have removed the problems from my breeding program, also had, with out giving up on type, fevers and amolyide and entropion are not just pei problems, so stop saying they are, wrinkles are not a problem like some are saying new info is always coming out and some jump on the band wagon, hard work has gone into the breed and the true shar pei breeder dose not breed for just one thing but to improve over all on every thing, and breed to the blue print laid down, yes breeds change over years but so do human kind, why is it that all animals are perfect when you breed when we cannot get our own race right, nature has a way of saying wow this will go wrong , but if you care you will work to try and get it right, money, colour should never come into breeding a litter, but in the wrong hands it always will, look at the true colours for most breeds and the blue's ect are never true.
ReplyDeleteSo you're saying, Sue, that the science linking the fevers to the wrinkling is.. what, bogus?
DeleteJust because the problems the Shar Pei has is also in other breeds does not make it okay. Two wrongs do not make a right. Breeding dogs for an exaggeration which wrinkles are, as we see no wild canid with wrinkles, will entail closing off gene pools and line breeding and this will lead to even more health problems which we see in the Shar Pei already and is well documented about.
DeleteOn the whole humans are quite healthy, we do not breed humans to a blueprint, the last person to try that was Hitler and it was called eugenics. We see humans in general living longer with each generation because of moving populations we have genetic variation. Where we see inheredited genetic problems and birth defects at very high rates in humans are closed off populations where it is common for cousins to marry.
With all the problems in the Shar Pei nature has said to you, "Wow, you have got this wrong," but unfortunately most seem to not hear this and as you try to repair the damage caused by closed off gene pools you will ineviatable reduce the gene pool further and more problems will arise in your breed, as time passes.
If you care Sue go and read up all the papers on genetics about dog breeding and stop thinking that a dog has to fit into a blueprint and you use the word true, no dog should have to be judged to be true or not to an over indulgent persons agenda for it.
Breed them for wrinkles, then pay a veterinarian to tack up the wrinkles!
ReplyDeleteSue, are you living back in the 1980s still? Have you not bothered to read the 2 peer reviewed published research studies and the plethora of articles by experts as well as the Veterinary Information Network, Science Daily, USA Today and the NY Times articles on FSF/SPAID, amyloidosis and hyaluronan in THIS breed? Are you somehow not aware that it has been proven that the excessive wrinkle and heavily padded muzzles that we have (for decades) selectively bred for are DIRECTLY associated with the breed's predisposition to Shar Pei Auto-Inflammatory Disease? Research conducted in collaberation with scientists internationally and with help of Universities in Uppsala, as well as MIT & Harvard and other research organizations. Seriously?
ReplyDeleteWell as a "responsible breeder" perhaps you should have a look at what the actual SCIENCE says because it does contradict your claims. Here are some links for you so you can educate yourself.
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1001332
http://www.wvc.vetsuite.com/Templates/ContentPages/More_Info/ClinicContentPage.aspx?guid=1e89269e-c262-45b7-b984-3cdaf7262081
http://www.wvc.vetsuite.com/Templates/ContentPages/More_Info/ClinicContentPage.aspx?guid=b872fddf-1610-4893-a055-45d69f436c5d
http://www.drjwv.com/article.php?view=0018.php&name=The+Answer+Continured
http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/news/discovery-of-genetic-cause-of.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0075242
Hey, is there anyone reading what JL is posting?
ReplyDeleteDo you really care about this breed's looks when they are heading for extinction? Do you really call your self responsible breeder after bringing this breed to where it is today, knowing what we know for the last 5 or more years? We are right where we started those 40+ years ago! At the brink of extinction. Sticking to the interpretation of the standard that has been popular the last 10, 15 years, worshiping the purebreds, not admitting the problem - this is killing our breed, not BYB, not crosses, not puppy millers. We have done it all by ourselves and with the attitude we are having, thing can get only worse. Stop fooling yourselves at the expense of this amazing breed.
Was the show type Shar Pei created by secretly crossing the original Shar Pei with a Neopoltian Mastiff?
ReplyDeleteCurious as to why Ines is labelled a puppy farmer? (lovely looking pups by the way! )
ReplyDeleteIs she not a K.C breeder, working within K.C regs?
This is the point I have been trying to make regarding K.Cs rules. There are the K.Cs - Then there is whats out side the K.Cs. The environment.
The K.Cs rules mean they have to define themselves against whats out side (their environment) in order to keep it out. So we get all these labels that are meaningless because the only thing that actualy defines a pedigree by practices,is the pedigree itself and the closed and increasingly closing lines.
Out side influences/demands (environmental) are secondary to K.C influences.
There are K.C breeders doing a fantastic job trying to bring back breeds that are on the brink. Hats off to them! I couldn't work with in a system where appeasing your peers is more important than breeding for environmental demands.
Trouble is, no ones allowed to work out side of that system either and this is destroying the community that is a dogs true environment.
My needs in a dog can not be met by the K.Cs. Yet any who have met my needs are labelled Backyard Breeders amid calls to "shut them down, the heathens!"
The dogs who restored my faith in their working abilities are unable to demonstrate those abilities. The events set up to do that are closed to dogs with out a pedigree. So alternatives have no chance to thrive or grow into breeds or types due to environmental influences. Kinda cuts off most possibility of growth for the K.Cs. doesn't it?
Change the rules and breeders are still able to do things as they always have, if thats what they honestly believe is in the dogs best interest, But it brings the environmental influence back into breeding practices. A good breeders is no longer defined simply by closed lines, but by how they use the knowledge given by a pedigree, their understanding of the dogs history and back ground, to breed better dogs.
It will free us all to discuss what good breeding practices mean, instead of of all this crap name calling because some one addresses a need rather than their acceptance into a closed culture.
Aussie
Aussie, excellent points...I completely agree!
DeleteThank you J.L.
DeleteI have been looking into this for a long time and the theory is more than confirmed in my mind. Its very scarey stuff, far worse than I expected while I was only looking for confirmation or rebuttal.
I believe we need change NOW to have any hope of retaining dogs in society as anything other than a rich mans play things, produced under license and not fully understood by any.
If I felt that the damage was only to pedigree dogs,I could do my own thing and let it go.
Its most definitely not. The damage leaks out into all areas of the community (environment) and re shapes that community in ways I am still finding out.
Repercussions in welfare are huge. I am convinced this is not just a pedigree dog problem, that their rules serve to remove dogs from the community. That gives us, the community a right to demand change while there still enough community to do it.
Aussie
Bang on Aussie. Familiarity does not equal understanding. The lack of education and continuing development by the vast majority of people in the dog world horrifies me. If people took the time to truly learn about the nature and the welfare requirements of the domestic dog I am convinced the world may well be a better place. Because they may well wake up and realise that the issues are truly global and can effect change in so many more areas of cultural and behavioural empathy and understanding.
DeleteWhat a relief to hear you say that.
DeleteI was thinking I need to change my name to Cassandra.
This argument IS backed by science.Possibly un-proven science, but certainly not dis-proven either.
Any serious guide to writing a successful constitution refers to this theory as the reason for not ruling outside of your charter- That you are in essence, creating a population subject to biological law.
Ruling outside of that charter means it is no longer a self sufficient population. It now has effect on and is affected by outside influences. That will most often be the environment .
Applying the theory to the K.C s appears to provide the the proof . In spades.
There is a thesis on the subject written by Hendrick Gommer .It is getting a lot of notice and the theory is being applied to National constitutions around the world .It is being taken seriously.
It ties together a whole host different fields. Law, Psychology,anthropology and others.
Aussie
Hi Georgina and tks, this puppies will be DNA tested and will be up to Jemima whether she wants to show it here, as its her blog, not mine. To all the Anons, i respect all your opinions, we are all entitled to have different opinions, this is a free country. What i do not agree with is with the Anons that insult m,e and dont show their face. plus I do not get this need for swearing and be rude, just because we disagree there is no need for disrespect. I have been getting lots of rudeness on FB, and funny enough, this people block me so I cannot reply?!?!?!? That to me is rather cowardly and rude. But again I have to accept we were all brought up differently.
ReplyDeleteAbout this pups, through Janet L Morgan I have met Mr Fook Wa Li, that has been breeding Tradicional Shar Peis in China for 45 years, and agreed to mentor me together with Janet and Ann Cardon and their Tradicional group on FB.
Mr Li .
Here is what Mr LI says about my pups
Fook Wah Li
3:38pm
你的小狗很可愛，牠們的長相已經是原種沙皮狗了。
Ines Alarcao
3:42pm
Ines Alarcao
非常感谢
Fook Wah Li
3:43pm
Translation
Fook Wah Li
3:38 pm
Your puppy is very cute, and their appearance is already a Shar Pei of the original species.
Ines Alarcao
3:42 pm
Thank you very much
Fook Wah Li
ANd he made my Day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! xxx
DNA tested for what?
DeleteHi Innes, sadly the response to both you and JH will continue to be hostile whilst ever the money grabbing bad breeders feel you are a threat. Not that they perceive you as "spoiling their much loved breed" but that you are endangering their easy source of income from their dogs. But you know you have improved the lifestyles of your dogs currently and for the future. The people who are nasty and rude are cowards because if they were genuine and their argument was valid they would give you a fair chance to respond directly. I don't think SPs are in the minority with genetic problems and it may be that we lose a lot of breeds, it seems that even if some of the breeds are outcrossed the genetic pool is somewhat compromised. I find it very sad but get encouraged greatly when I read about your efforts and JH's determination to overcome such disgraceful breeding practices. Dogs are such wonderful members of our families and make us better people as a result.
ReplyDeleteParentage , as some people insinuated they not pure breed and profiling
ReplyDeleteCan bone mouth types be AKC or KC registered as country of origin dogs? Are there bone mouths that already have AKC or KC registration?
ReplyDeleteGreat to see such praise from the honorable Fook Wah Li!!! He is seeing what I am seeing in this breeding. The reverting to Traditional phenotype in these pups. This is no small thing to accomplish in ONE generation from meatmouth lines. It demonstrates the strong trend to revert back to the basic dog...and that is a good thing.
ReplyDeleteHi Innes, in reality it would be good to confirm what you already know is that the puppies are pure bred by DNA testing. The reason I say that is because when you receive more unfounded attacks from the cowards you are enabled to respond positively. I think JH will support you if you want to publish the results on this site because you are trying to better a very sick breed. On the other hand, as I previously said, it may well be that with the backing of KC or your own concerns you may well outcross for the betterment of your dogs in the future. Genetically it appears that outcrossing is going to become the norm but it will need to be done carefully and thoughtfully and your involvement with SPs over a number of years puts you in a strong place to know who, how and what is the best way forward in your breeding plans. Just stay strong and determined for the sake of your dogs;
ReplyDeleteHi Georgina,
DeleteThe question I have is this: What baseline will be used in this DNA test?
Will Ines' Shar Pei be compared to DNA from purebred Asian Shar Pei, or local show bred Shar Pei - whose vast type change, over a short period of time, might lead people question how to new show type was developed?
If the show type was developed by an outcross, then purebred original type would not match either.
Hi anon 23:14 a valid question, I have no history or knowledge of SP's per se. However to protect Innes from any more unpleasantness and in my ignorance I thought that DNA would be the best avenue. In the present arena it would presumably be to identify the bloodlines present in the UK today and I believe that any other influence would be detected in the test. I have never personally used DNA testing so can be accused of speaking out of ignorance but Innes is the first pedigree dog breeder who has scanned this site and openly and honestly started to correct problems within her breed. The response she has received from nasty "Anons" is what was expected, unnecessary, but expected. SP's are probably going to be the first breed to start the ball rolling towards health improvement and like any "spearheader" is going to set the way forward and hopefully broaden the shoulders of other breeders who know their breed is ailing but are too brainwashed to think laterally. They will take strength and start to help their own breeds positively. So again you will hopefully understand my woolyheadedness but accept that my love and interest in dogs is genuine. This site is centred on the welfare of dogs, all dogs, and the persuasion of breeders who are blindly ignorant of the pain and distress they are causing because they are breeding to ridiculous breed standards. When they realise they will do an "Innes" and do something positive for the breeds they love
DeleteThe first pedigree dog breeder in the UK you mean? Because there are other breeders out there that have been breeding more moderate, less wrinkled pei for years. Not to mention breeders of other breeds.
DeleteReally good to hear that Nanook and as I say SP's may be the first breed to openly and honestly show their progress and backward steps. Because to know from somebody else's experience is the way forward and if they have a disappointment it will stop the unnecessary breeding of "disabled" puppies and the dogs, the breeders and the new puppy owners will all have such an improved life quality. So all I can say from my viewpoint is that the SP's are poorly but there is a hardcore, one assumes yourself included, who are not going to give up on the health of their dogs without a fight and hopefully will set out the path down which other breeders (all breeds) can follow.
DeleteOh, I'm not a breeder. While less wrinkles is definitely a step forward in my opinion, it is not enough. There is stil FSF, amyloidosis etc.. And less wrinkles does not necessarily mean less FSF, unfortunately. Puppies, that haven't had eye tacks done, might still need them later, as they are older, or even surgery.
DeleteNow, I don't like wrinkles and would never buy a very wrinkled pei. Sadly, though, in my experience the wrinkles are what most buyers want. While it is fairly easy to blame the breeders and shows for everything, but the buyers are at fault as well.
I don't pretend to know the breed well. In my days managing a kennel in Australia, we only saw a half dozen or so. If my memory serves, none of these was anywhere near as extreme as the ones JH has shown in the blog post, and none had any apparent health problems.
ReplyDeleteHowever, most of them had what, to a kennel manager, are temperament problems. I understand that shar pei, in China, were fighting dogs and expected to be guardians, devoted to family, and protective. Shar pei websites describe the breed temperament as aloof and requiring early socialization to be ok with other dogs and strangers. This often translates into a very difficult dog to own, and a high tendency to end up in rescues . . . often leading to euthenasia due to temperament faults.
I applaud Inez and others breeding to produce a more natural looking dog.
I hope, in selecting against exaggerate features, they are also able to select for an easier temperament that is more likely to fit in to modern lifestyles.
Thank you Jennifer, and yes , a lovely temperament is crucial to us, we only breed from guys with good temperament as we believe is passed down, also any sign of dominance gets educated from an early age here. xxx
DeleteDominance is not something that modern science based trainers and behaviourists pay any attention to! Dominance and submission arose out of the flawed research on wolves which was unfortunately linked to the domestic dog. Nonsense pseudoscience. As you are making spectacular progress with your continuing education with breeding practices, may I respectfully suggest that you also apply the same approach to understanding training and behaviour. You need to be seeking trainers and behaviourists who are both scientifically knowledgeable and professionally qualified and not simply because they have been practising for the last 30 years. You know, like a lot of dog breeders do and claim they are experts.....
DeleteAloof is a euphemism for difficult to socialise. Why prescribe this is a breed standard where dogs end up as pets? Talk about setting an animal up to fail....
DeleteI'd run a mile from a breeder who is looking for signs of 'dominance' in pups! What on earth!?! You may well be making grounds on breeding practices but you appear to be stuck in the dark ages when it comes to canine behavioural and social understanding....
DeleteYou need to reread her comment. She views 'dominance' as a bad thing, not as a positive trait.
DeleteI have never in my life seen such a group of negative people spewing toxic garbage. People that know NOTHING (or VERY little) about this breed or Ines. People so cowardly that they have to post such venom anonomously. You folks are the reason why there will never be real improvement in the breeds. Here is someone seeking to do something to benefit the dogs and here you come, one after another with your herd mentality picking her apart and villifying her at every turn. Making up things to criticise when it serves you.
DeleteNow you are on about temperaments (in your most recent attempts to burn Ines at the stake) when I would wager that most of you have little to no experience in canid behavioral study, let alone much if any experience training and working with THIS breed. So what? you read a couple of articles by Terrierman or other blogger that spouts off about dominent behaviors being based on pseudoscience and therefore that makes it the new "truth"? Really, well, where are the peer reviewed published behavioral studies that support that statement? Oh, that's right, there aren't any! And what is YOUR training and credentials that make you any kind of certified expert and behavioral guru? What do you know about Ines training and behavioral education or qualifications that make you feel you can "educate" her with your snide remarks and criticisms.
Oh it is so easy to throw your knives while you hide behind your mask of anonimity. What a sad pathetic bunch you anons are. If you actually had any courage and confidence in your convictions you wouldnt need to hide your identity.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
DeleteSuggest you check a professional companion pet behaviourist's opinion on the 'dominance' myth. Something that unfortumately continues to perpetuate within the ranks of uneducated dog people....Ther are some peer reviewed scientific papers referenced too! The paper by Mech is particularly enlightening.
Professor John Bradshaw, an Anthrozoologist at Bristol, may well disagree with your rant too JL...suggest you read anything you can get your hands on by him and other veterinary behaviour scientists (Sophia Yin, Karen Overall, Patricia McConnell).
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/nn.3594.pdf
https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/the-concept-formerly-described-as-dominance
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominance-Fact-Fiction-Barry-Eaton/dp/0953303942
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance?/dominance.php
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Medical+news/Dumbed-down-by-dominance-Part-2-Change-your-domina/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/767068
That someone uses the word dominance does not mean they believe in dominance theory. I interpreted Inez's use of the word to mean a pup that would score mostly 5's and 6's in the Volhard puppy temperament test. Ie, (from http://www.volhard.com/pages/pat.php)
DeleteMostly 6’s -
So independent that he doesn’t need you or other people
Doesn’t care if he is trained or not - he is his own person Unlikely to bond to you, since he doesn’t need you.
A great guard dog for gas stations!
Do not take this puppy and think you can change him into a lovable bundle - you can’t, so leave well enough alone
Anon 16:44 said: “Dominance and submission arose out of the flawed research on wolves which was unfortunately linked to the domestic dog. Nonsense pseudoscience.”
DeleteAnon 16:55 said: “…you appear to be stuck in the dark ages when it comes to canine behavioural and social understanding...”
Anon 8:37 said: “Suggest you check a professional companion pet behaviourist's opinion on the 'dominance' myth. Something that unfortumately [sic] continues to perpetuate within the ranks of uneducated dog people....Ther [sic] are some peer reviewed scientific papers referenced too! The paper by Mech is particularly enlightening.”
Well, one thing we all agree on is that there is indeed a lot of partial truth and downright pseudoscience in dog training, often based on poor reading skills or people simply parroting what they have been told real experts say, as opposed to reading (and understanding) what is said for themselves.
I suggest you read this article by Marc Bekoff – right to the end where he quotes what Mech has to say about how dog trainers have misused his findings, ending with: “I do not in any way reject the notion of dominance.”
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201202/social-dominance-is-not-myth-wolves-dogs-and
Bekoff also provides links to studies done by the David Mech, which I also suggest you read in their entirety and pay attention to what the man actually says, not what you have been told he says or what you think he says or what you want him to say. The paper published in 2010, begins “Dominance is one of the most pervasive and important behaviors among wolves in a pack…”. This is relatively clear language, I think.
It is true that wolves are not domestic dogs and there are limits to comparing their behaviours, but if you want to observe dominance and submission in action when establishing relationships, go to your local off-leash dog park where clueless owners allow their dogs to sort things out for themselves. Watch how the dogs communicate with each other. Puppy behaviour is practice for adult behaviour; of course you see dominant and submissive behaviours in puppies. For those of you who do not read carefully, please note I use the terms to refer to behaviours, not personalities.
There is a genetic component to behaviour. The genes for behaviours, including signals of dominance and submission as well as the predatory sequence, didn’t magically disappear when the show people started breeding the dogs and the behaviours can appear in puppyhood. If you don’t believe me, take a look at two little video clips of a 4-week old puppy and an 8-week-old puppy starting at 3:32:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI4UejWcK8Q
Just because a term is misused does not mean that what it describes when used properly does not exist.
In any litter, but particularly one involving a fighting breed in which certain behaviours have been selected for (related to predatory sequence, not dominance), potentially problematic behaviours in an adult need to be recognized and addressed as well as possible when the dog is still a puppy. Too few breeders do this and create problems down the line for their puppy buyers. Just because Ines does attempt to address undesirable behaviour does not mean she’s applying inappropriate actions, whatever term she uses to describe the behaviour.
Ines, well done for producing a better dog, both in terms of conformation and temperament, both in the breeding and the raising. Ignore those that make themselves feel superior by criticizing everything you do.
Thank you Sandra and Jennifer, i agree with you completely, in my plain English that what i said. To really be a good canine behaviour, like anything in life, you have to be passionate about it, theory its not enough, memorizing its not enough. Also you have to be a balanced , calm assertive human, otherwise you will freak the dogs out lol.
DeleteThank god i have only had 1 shar pei here with high dominance score, my first pei and just a pet. As soon as a pup starts walking its easy to see signs of dominance or submission. I think people can easily see i speak from the heart, the ones that misread me, are the ones looking to judge me, but thats ok. We are all different. And thank you Jemima x
Dear All, I just wanted to rectify , and make sure that i don't want to put everyone in the same bag. There are lots of people in this breed that care, and i want to aknowledge them, including some show breeders that got very hurt with my comments. We all have different views and paths in life, I want to respect that , and I do not like to unfairly hurt anyone. Of course there are lots of awful people in this dog's world and in the shar pei world, but there are others that are also doing efforts to make it better and will not breed from ill dogs. I apologize to those if they felt I was attacking them. We all love the breed and everyone that wants to improove it should stick together. I do get very passionate about this subject,I am not a bad person nor I do things to hurt others or cause trouble, I just want to help my breed get healthier. Please accept my apologies xx
ReplyDeleteHi Ines, would it be possible to contact you regarding Shar Pei pups? Or if anybody could put me in contact it would be appreciated.
Delete"Now these pups are still too immoderate for me. And, in my opinion, this breed is too inbred and has too many inherent health problems (notably Familial Shar-pei Fever) to be able to justify breeding it at all."
ReplyDeleteAs usual, it's never good enough for you, is it? These things don't just change overnight
In response to the behavior anon:
ReplyDeleteActually, I have read those (and MANY other) books and articles on behavior and training. I have been involved in dog training since the early 80s and have watched MANY popular theories and methods come and go from my days training with Dick Koehler (William Koehler's son in the early 80s) thru many other methods and theories over the years.
I have also studied wolves extensively reading everything by Mech, Doug Smith and many others...Temple Grandin also has some interesting insights on behaviors of canids in forced packs and differences in wild canids and domesticated canids due to paedmorphism. Interesting stuff.
While I agree that the blaming of every behavior on the "dominence model" is far too wide a net to cast, there certainly ARE dominence based behaviors and dynamics, especially in a forced domesticated canid pack. Even in Mech's latest research, dominent behaviors are observed in wolves, there is simply a distintion between dominent and subordinate behaviors being observed (which these are in Mech's paper you mention) and aggressive dominence being the primary factor in establishing heirarchy or attaining rank, which it is not in most cases with natural packs (breeding pair & offspring). There absolutely are dominent and submissive behaviors in both wolves and in dogs (both natural and forced packs)...such have been well observed and documented.
Of course this is a separate thing than using dominence aggressively as a training/behavioral modification tool. Most trainers dont understand the subtleties of effective pack leadership and communication and instead teach methods of force instead, which is a clumsy and myopic approach...but we arent really discussing that in this exchange.
I understand that the latest fad (and I have seen many training/behavior fads come and go over the last 40 years) in behavior theory is to move away from the term dominant entirely. Yet it still (appropriately applied) is a part of our equation because dominence exists (either passively or aggressively) in all relationships (both animal and human) as it associates to rule, control, authority. It IS overused and often misapplied in dog behavior theory but that doesnt mean that the term itself is invalid. The term DOES need to be properly defined...too often it is associated with obvious aggression within the context of canid behavior...yet dominence can be much more passive and subtle.
Of course too, I have had many years of personal observation of domesticated canid pack behavior...both in forced packs (non related dogs) and in "natural" packs (parents & offspring). I have observed both dominent and submissive behaviors in both dynamics as I am sure Ines has with her pack.
I could go on to address the assumptions and misconceptions in your post further but I see that Sarah has already addressed these rather impressively...excellent post Sarah!
Well done to Ines! You are so brave.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting observing the human behaviour on this blog. There seems to be a lot of bragging about personal experience and indeed an attitude that renders some people to believe that they are some sort of expert because they have simply bred or owned dogs and have read a few books. This is hardly a professional, compassionate or even a remotely helpful attitude. It's a game of 'I know more than you! Ner ner ne ner ner!' It's certainly not going to bring the best out in people or encourage or help them. Unless you really don't give a stuff about that of course...
I am no expert but may I humbly suggest that if anyone is reading this and is now, quite rightly, very confused about the concept of dominance in dog training and behaviour, they may well want to consult the Dog's Trust who have a very pragmatic and empirical approach to this particular theory.
http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html
http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/factsheetsanddownloads/factsheetbehaviouralproblems11.pdf
This blog topic has gone way off track but it has been interesting to see how people have waded in when they think they have something useful to contribute. It often ends up becoming a competition of who can shout the other person down the loudest.
Shared opinions are much more useful when they are informed and when they are offered with empathic understanding.
Yes, way off topic. And that is a good post to end the behaviour discussion on. Thank you.
DeleteLoad o f rubbish..... shar pei are brilliant dogs
ReplyDeleteWell Well is that an eyeless shar pei!
ReplyDelete