 |
| 1915 |
This is what a Bull Terrier looked like 100 years ago - a fit and functional, well-balanced and in-proportion dog. Note in particular this dog's head... there's nothing abnormal here.
And here's a modern Bull Terrier - bred by a chap in called Lyndon Ingles in Wales who breeds for a Bull Terrier that is a working all-rounder.
The breeder of that 1915 Bull Terrier would have no problems recognising Lyndon's dog. But what on earth would they make of these three Bull Terriers, shown at Crufts today?
I always get a rise from the Bull Terrier breeders when I dare to mention that what they've done to the Bull Terrier's head is pointless and ugly.
So I'll say it again.
What show breeders have done to the Bull Terrier's head is pointless and ugly.
Never have I agreed with you more, those dogs remind me of the creatures featured in the film "I am legend", but that nagging question still remains..........why would you do this???
ReplyDeleteYes and so there are many "different" looking things in the world. Does that mean they are any less a dog because you dont "like" the way it looks? Thank the Lord that taste differ, and that everyone does not like the same things.. How boring indeed. Unless there is a health hazard attached to the Bully-head, this discussion is based on personal opinions only, which could be discussed until the end of days.. I like I dont like, I think its hideous, I think its beautiful... Whatever blows your hair back baby!
Delete"Lord"
Deletelol thanks god for differing opinions sorry you couldn't help those starving African orphans dying of aids
actually there is a health related issue with that head ... breathing and seight ... so he breaths heavy .. withch is not good for a working dog and active dog should be able to breath well in order to bring oxigen to the lungs and muscles.... and that head makes it hard to have a good seight line ...
DeleteDamn dude, you're the worst at spelling.
DeleteThat's ridiculous! I've had English bull terriers my entire life and they have NEVER had a breathing problem and have excellent sight! They are beautiful, intelligent, loving animals
DeleteFor all of you morons at think all of their heads are like that you're incorrect!!!
DeleteI agree with you . I have 2 English Bull Terriers and never had a problem with their breathing or eye sight .
DeleteI think they are stunning and misunderstood like many breeds undoubtedly the most stupid annoying beautiful Angel's on the planet
DeleteAppearance is subjective, so the real question is whether the shape of their head affects their health in any way?
ReplyDeleteIt might. Entropion, ectropion and lens luxation. Just like on Shih Tzus and bulldogs, it's believed its got to do with the face, but it also hereditary. Since the formation of the stop is a genetic mutation, it may be linked to other diseases found in the bull terrier. Maybe their OCD, but genetics is complicated. However, it doesn't take a geneticist to know that mutations don't affect only one thing.
DeleteIt might not be entirely pointless. The oddly-shaped heads make it really hard for any sane person to look at a BOB show bull terrier and call it a "pitbull". The result is that the breed is escaping a large amount of the anti-pitbull stigma because often the laws and hate directed at "pitbulls" are based only on appearance and urban legend. Granted, it was a very pointless fashion trend when it started IMO, but the current breed-legislation-politics situation may be continuing a trend that may or may not have started falling out of fashion. They are also starting to fall victim breed prejudice via legislation and insurance companies, but only as the paranoia is spreading to all large dogs, all muscular breeds, breeds with a fighting history, etc.
ReplyDeleteFinally, their weird head shapes do not (as far as I know right now) cause any health/welfare issues, so it's not something show people will want to change very soon.
But I do agree that it is a very ugly head shape. I actually prefer the sleeker, wedge-shaped heads of the old style.
Bull Terrier != Pitbull
DeleteThey made it better! It's obviously an improvement! The new dog has more...sensory...volume...something.
ReplyDelete(end sarcasm)
I believe the standard calls for an "egg-shaped" head. You can easily see how the head on the top two (historical dog, working dog) are ALSO egg-shaped, without being so extreme. I think over time people read a standard to be something that it never was. Another good example is the hind end of the modern GSD.
ReplyDeleteMy skin crawls when I see these out and about.
ReplyDeleteH
well that is your personal opinion isnt it.... My heart swells with love and affection when I see these out and about :0)
DeleteIf its not a Bull Terrier its just a dog....
I personally own one. I agree if its not a bull terrier its just a dog. Reading these rude comments from you ignorant humans makes my skin crawl. These are beautiful loving animals. And as far as the breathing issues, my dog has none she breathes like any other dog would. ♥
Deletemy skin crawls think of you walking amongst us
DeleteOpinions are like butt-holes----everybody has one and they often stink.
DeleteRemember beauty is in the eye of the beholder..
The head shape in exaggerated show examples produces a less effective 'bite and hold'. The bio-mechanics of the old type (slight but definate 'stop') Bull Terrier along with the wolf and other wild canids gives the optimal bite strength and allows a given bite force to be maintained longer and without interfering with the dog's breathing. The show dog, sadly, is on the long shameful list or pure breeds now incapable of performing the tasks for which it was bred originally. How long are these odd people with their weird aesthetic fetishism going to get away with the now obviously bullshit narrative that they are improving their chosen breeds. Shame on them all and their unfathomably peculiar motives, every one I've met has been a complete obsessive and tellingly, professed to know the finer points of their breeds field of activity. I've had a middle aged lady explain to me just why her Great Dane was more than capable of bringing down a wild boar for example (the dog became frightened by one of its own farts at the time) Just bizarre, every bit as insane as beauty pageants and hopefully soon to decline and cease it's destruction.
DeleteAs much as I agree of its practical pointlessness, almost all modern breeds were developed through this way, unconsciously or not, from its old root genes by wolves. We manipulate it to suite our fancy. Unless this article can provide evidence that the skull bones negatively impact health, then I don't see how this is bad, at least compared to any breed that is developed. That said, yes, we might as well classify the working dogs from show-dogs.
ReplyDeleteBeauty is in the eye of the beholder. Each to their own opinions please. If everyone had to like the same thing - o Hell! how boring life would be. For me and thousands of like minded people in the world - there is no better looling, better companion, better dog with the clowniest funniest loving personality. I LOVE MY BULLIES. Unless you and all you haters out there can prove that the head of the Bull Terrier is a health risk, please note your opinion based on your perception of beauty is your individual choice. Go browse the 43151 friends photos on the Bull Terrier Journal on Facebook to get an idea what bullies are about.....Jeanine le Roux Sunny South Africa :0)
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean, 'haters'? I love bull terriers, I have been wanting one for years. But by the time I became able to have one, they turned into fat cabinets on legs, with huge rounded heads. My friend owns show bullies and I know they often have teeth issues. Either not a complete set, or bite issues, or 'floating' bite. In addition to that, her new show type dogs get tired very fast. I like them, for God's sake they are lovely dogs, cuddly and friendly and amusing, but I do not want a dog with that many issues. Her old type dogs she owned and bred were much more fit and strong. I would love to have one like that but they are not around anymore. I like the Ingles dog, of course.
Deletethen buy one
DeleteI am guilty of finding the modern Bull terriers head gorgeous (but don't like it when the body is too stocky), but I don't think it's good to breed for a nose that points downwards - I may be misinformed, but I've heard of Bull terriers that collide with their face in bowls when trying to eat, or sometimes unable to pick up things from the floor, because the nose is not where they expect it to be.
ReplyDeleteI am not a bull terrier hater but nor am I a lover, I just don't find it appealing! I have heard however that these dogs are often born with a cleft palette, any thoughts on this anyone!
ReplyDeleteget your facts right,never seen one with a cleft pallete
DeleteAmazing how much nonsense can come out of one persons mouth at any one time. Have you really got nothing better to do than make problems where there are none? Guess the devil makes work for idle hands....
ReplyDeleteDo you have scientific evidence to back up your claim Lorraine are there really no problems what so ever???
DeleteThe problem JH is trying to create here is based on the shape of the BT's head. Of course there is problems in any breed, this is not the discussion on this forum though....
DeleteThe old style Bullies are gorgeous! Just a neat, athletic, sharp looking dog. I'd love to have one like that. And then we have the show bull terriers...how anyone can think that is an improvement I have no idea! "To each their own" is all well and good UNTIL it creates one (or four) of the most severely inbred breeds of dog! The morphology is not as extreme or detrimental as in some other "bully" breeds, thank god, but it's certainly a long way off from natural and there is NOTHING functional about it.
ReplyDeleteI'm an Airedale owner, another breed without much stop to the head. I generally lament the fact that the Airedale's coat has changed from a hard, close-lying wire coat to the excessive frizz and fluff we see today, in order to get the comically profuse beards and leg furnishings seen in the show ring. HOWEVER Bull Terriers make me grateful for all that hair, when I think what my dog's skull might look like if show people couldn't rely on the coiffed beard to give the impression of a "brick shaped" head.
You are so right......be grateful for the "elnett revolution" that fought long and hard to be allowed to chalk, spray and otherwise sculpture their dogs into the shape they want so much. Just imagine if this was banned and they actually began to "breed" for such styles and shapes !!!!!
DeleteWow, love to read about breeders who take the dogs back to the roots! Does he have a website, or is there an other way to contact him? I'd love to hear more about his breeding program!
ReplyDeleteGo Google the Hinks Terrier very much alive in India. Many Bullies are still born with old style heads....
DeleteAlso you forgot to mention that they still FIGHT bull terriers in India.
DeleteThis modern head is NOT a health Hazzard unlike the bulldog breeds or other breeds that have eyes like they are about to POP out their HEADS or can't breath properly!
ReplyDeleteThe old style look lovely
ReplyDeleteand i am sorry but the argument shouldnt be that people have to prove that the new shape is detrimental to the dog - that is basically saying we can breed dogs into as many random shapes as we wish up until we see health issues - and then the people will love the breed so much they will not see the health issues anyway.
All these changes in the many breeds we have altered for the show ring have happened in such a fast period of time that the insides have not evolved to cope with the adaptations, just because dogs are not showing giant health issues doesent mean that the inside of a dogs head is supposed to be contorted into that shape, it has evolved all its functions to fit inside a dog shaped head
Anyway - what is the point of a standard? I thought it was to keep the breeds looking as the breeds they were - yet the show lines now looks so different and in the main the dogs bred for working ability tend to still look like the dogs when the standard was written
The change in skull anatomy in the Bulterrier is certainly an interesting example of changes due to breeding - though as far as I am aware, nobody has as of yet shown it to result in any disease or suffering for these dogs. So, and apart from personal taste, what exactly is it that you find deplorable about this change in anatomy?
ReplyDeleteThose poor dogs. What does that elevated bridge do to their binocular vision? Do they even have any?!
ReplyDeletenothing and yes
DeleteWatching that programme the other night Road to Crufts...I couldnt get over the footage of the toy poodle winning Crufts and the GSD getting Reserve. The GSD had a relatively straight back....what has happened to this breed in 30 years is disgusting. The dog could move back in the 80s...he moved like a train....why change something so beautiful and functional. It's sickening! Most of the Bull Terriers I see are verging on obese....very sad!
ReplyDeleteIn a nod to an example of show breeders doing a very good thing, I wanted to point out that I believe the Bull Terrier is an example of a breed that was once bred as a fighting dog. Modern show breeders have by most accounts made great strides in producing a more affable, fun-loving, clownish dog who is generally a good pet (though still game with other dogs and cats so care needs to be taken).
ReplyDeleteIn this case, heads aside, we would certainly not want to emulate the "working" dog breeders of yore, for the "work" that these dogs did is not humane and should not be perpetuated.
Bull terriers are one of the best, but certainly not the only, example where show breeders have done a tremendous job in breeding for stable temperaments in a dog who was originally selected for something else entirely. While in many cases the fact that a lot of show breeders no longer work their dogs in other venues has caused serious problems, if I am to be fair I must point out that in this case, the opposite is true and the fanciers of several bully breeds have turned their dogs into wonderful pets, for the most part.
Well there was quite a scrap in the ring on Thursday.... But, yes, would agree with you that the modern BT has a good temperament in the main. I do actually love this breed's character.. we had two in my family when I was younger so have some experience of them. But of course it's perfectly possible to breed for a more normal head and a good temperament.
DeleteJemima
But a nightmare to train! So long as the breeders are upfront and honest with potential new owners about the difficulties in training them, then I don't have an issue with that. Just rather anybody else than me... :)
DeleteJemima, I agree completely about the heads.
DeleteGSD is bloody awful - no dog has that conformation - bad breeding and judging
ReplyDeleteAgain please prove that the BT head is detremental to its health. There is nothing wrong with Bully eyesight or ability to smell or eat. Other than personal opinions please if you do not know the breed rather dont comment..... We can debate the looks untill the end of days but unless you can keep your personal likes and dislikes separate from healt issues, please...... I like yellow it's my favourate colour, not everyone is into yellow.....
ReplyDeleteQuestion for the Bully lovers. Is it just me or has the breed become much broader in the chest over the last 30 or so years. I was quite surprised by the Crufts BOB. Seemed way too wide in the chest and ungainly to me. No athleticism at all. I like the breed, my brother in law has one that was bred by a bit of backyard breeder and it has a massive head. We do notice that he likes to lay his head down a lot but it might be just this one dog.
ReplyDeleteStill waiting for a GSD breeder from here or Germany to explain the physiological point to having an arched topline? There are plenty of working sheep/cattle dogs around and none of them have such a topline so what is the thinking behind this? Why does a GSD need it? What purpose does it serve?
ReplyDeleteUnless you can answer that one i guess we can see the problem with the ever growing Bull Terrier head. It is something pointless that gradually creeps up and up until before you know it you have a problem! Looks too me that this lovely breed needs less emphasis on massive skulls and more on the lightening of the structure, otherwise what you have is yet another breed that isn't even on nodding terms with anything like its original function.
What purpose does an arched topline for any breed serve? Why aren't you out asking the sighthound breeders? Or Bedlington breeders? Is it just because GSDs are changing, that it MUST be bad?
DeleteYou really cannot compare what's been done to the GSD with what you see in sighthounds or Bedlingtons - although I was a bit shocked to see how big the rise is over the loins in some Bedlingtons in the ring and there's no doubt that some Borzoi are hump-backed. A slight rise is natural, though (and the totally level topline that some breed demand is very definitely *not* natural).
DeleteWhat we see in GSDs is something else entirely. It's absolutely dysfunctional. It's been gradual so the eye accepts it to some degree. But we can remind ourselves how odd it is by showing what it would look like in a horse - see the morph here:
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/lets-do-to-horses-what-we-did-to.html
In case no one noticed.. there are THREE dogs heads pictured.. not two. Lovely dogs all.. I was at Crufts and am pleased to say a bitch sired by my stud dog took the CC..and no she does not look like Mr Ingles dog in Wales and for that I am glad as his dog does not come anywhere near the breed standard and although a nice looking dog is not a mix of "bull" and 'terrier" but I suggest that anyone who wants a dog that looks like that run up there and get one if they are looking for a "working all -rounder' Bull Terrier. Jemima, Bull Terriers were originally bred for the pit so can you please clarify for us what a 'working all rounder" Bull Terrier does for "work"? also that the "fit and functional " dog.. whatever that is in the bloggers mind is functional for its purpose at the time which was for the pit.. so if you are looking for pit style dogs.. then Mr Inlges is your man and his style of dog is the style you should look for as a "working all rounder" ..
ReplyDeletemeanwhile I will take my clownish Bt's very day of the week and you can keep the "working" BT's
By the way Crufts was a wonderful experience. The love and care given to each and every dog in the building was extraordinary. I was proud to be a part of an event that celebrates the human dog bond in such a positive manner.
The new 'old style' bullie you feature certainly is a lot less exaggerated but is he actually healthier? Many terrier breeds and their non pedigree counterparts including the muttley jack russell suffer primary lens luxation. I assume other terrier breeds have been added to the bull terrier (which also get PLL) to acheive this more old fashioned look. Has the breeder tested his stock for this?
ReplyDeleteIf not all we have is a dogs which 'looks' more functional rather than being more healthy.
VP
well there we go.. the Bull Terrier does NOT have PLL.. in fact the Bull Terrier stud books were open to interbreed between Bull terriers and Miniature Bull terriers just for this fact.. To clear the minis from PLL which as the poster says probably came from crossbreeding to another breed like the jack. Perhaps Jemima could post Mr Inlgels test results here on this blog. Thankfully due to the hard work of and FUNDING by the pedigreed Bull Terriere and Minature Bull Terrier breeders we now have a test for PLL and it will be eliminated from these two breeds plus the others. damn those pedigreed dog breeders any way..never doing anything but creating mutants...
DeleteJan, could you try to explain the reason for breeding a dog with a head that is this shape?
DeleteAnd not least because it is a misinterpretation of the breed standard. The word "egg-shaped" crept into the breed standard around 1915 if I remember rightly. But it explicitly stated that this was supposed to be the shape of the dog's head the *front* not in profile. Somewhere along the line it got misinterpreted to mean in-profile too and the breed standard was changed to reflect it.
Jemima
Jemima - why does the head bother you? There is no health risks involved by the way the head looks. So other than the fact that you don't like it, what is the real problem? I have seen the bully head at it's most extreme and it can not go any further than that. The Bull Terrier head of today is how the standard requires it and can not change a hell of a lot more. So the head as it is, is as it is. Unless you can think up some health risk, why bother if the general majority of the race is relatively healthy and their list of possible illnesses has no link to the head. Think up something else to bash Bull Terriers with why dont you?
DeleteWhy does the head bother me?
DeleteBecause the process by which it happens is creeping and pernicious.
Because I'm afraid I do not share your belief that it has gone as far as it can go.
And because if I continue to highlight it, and keep showing how beautiful the dogs of yesteryear were, it might just give breeders pause for thought.
The standard has *always* required the head to be the shape it was at the time, and yet it has continued to evolve.
Jemima
What?.. creeping and pernicious?? LOL pernicious .. means
Deletecausing serious harm destruction, or death and you claim the head shape is doing that? Prove it.
you say:
'The standard has *always* required the head to be the shape it was at the time, and yet it has continued to evolve."
From the Illustrated Standard edited by Tom Horner:
..viewed from the front, eggshaped and COMPLETELY FILLED ( my emphasis)its surface free from hollows or indentations.. PROFILE curves gently downwards from top of skull to tip of nose.. "
also
"Downface refers to the arc formed by the outline of the head when viewed in profile...there should be an unbroken curve from between the ears to the tip of the muzzle where the nose should turn down more sharply to form the Roman finish".. there is much more but I am sure you can get your own copy to read..
An Illustrated Explanation of the Standard of the Bull Terrier edited by Tom Horner .
I think the Bull Terrier Club sells them .. so spring for a copy .. when you have thoroughly digested it.. let me know..
Mr Ingles dogs are very nice indeed but they do not meet this standard and this is the one we choose to follow.
have to agree with Anon 8:23.. it is a non issue for health .. tempest in a teapot etc..but certainly not 'pernicious". far from it..
You are not going back far enough, Jan. Have a look at this - the Bull Terrier standard taken from the Club description - from around 1910 (which is when this book by Robert Leighton was published):
Deletehttp://www.fullbooks.com/Dogs-and-All-About-Them4.html
(description about two thirds down)
"The general appearance of the Bull-terrier is
that of a symmetrical animal, the embodiment of agility, grace,
elegance, and determination. HEAD--The head should be long, flat,
and wide between the ears, tapering to the nose, without cheek
muscles. There should be a slight indentation down the face, without
a stop between the eyes."
No mention of "egg-shaped", profile curve or "downface". That came later.
I did a bit of research on this a few years ago.
So which standard is "correct"? It's often completely arbitrary and to maintain otherwise is one of the great conceits of the dog world. Breeders embrace and boast about their breed's history but ignore/dismiss elements of that history when it suits them.
Jemima
you say TOO mato.. I say Too MA toe or vice versa..both standards are correct depending on which on you prefer.Want to stay with the old standard. no problem.. be my guest.. who really cares Jemima?..what is your point about this? Should every breed revert back to its roots to satisfy you? I choose to use the Illustrated Standard when I judge and select for breeding ( a great resource by the way) you choose to read another outdated version and prefer that one. The current standard ( which really has not changed much in the relatively past years) is the one I use when judging. When you get your license to judge perhaps you would prefer to use another standard more to your own liking that you write for yourself and those who believe as you do. When you bred your next litter of Bull Terriers then you also can choose which path to follow. As I have stated there is NOTHING stopping anyone from breeding the Ingles dog, the Gull Terrier, the Hinks dog, or any mix of them if that is what they prefer. The shape of the head is not a health issue in any of them including the Bull Terrier.
DeleteThose who can.. do those who cannot .. preach
Strictly speaking, no, there is nothing stopping people from diverging from the show standard to produce the old type. But then again, how about the kennel club, societal norms and ingrained customs, people that shun any dog that doesn't look like a cookie-cutter reproduction of what the show judges go for, and the bad-mouthing by folks that take those standards so seriously they think anyone that diverges isn't doing something good for the breed?
DeleteThe rise this is getting out of people is frankly quite hilarious.
The dog show fancy has created people that are so obsessed with conformation it's like the written standard is the holy grail, even though clearly the kennel club standards aren't even what the judges judge to. Take for example the German shepherd. This is taken from the American Kennel Club breed standard:
It is well balanced, with harmonious development of the forequarter and hindquarter. The dog is longer than tall, deep-bodied, and presents an outline of smooth curves rather than angles.
Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.
This is absurd - I've not seen one showline shepherd that even comes close to this written standard. So why are standards the end-all, be-all in the dog world?
When you watch a dog show the commentators always say something to the effect of "the judges are not judging one breed against another, but trying to pick the dog that best represents the written breed standard." This is obviously not true, for if it was, the top-winning German Shepherds today wouldn't have the titles they do. Modern shepherds are certainly not well balanced and from what I've read, they are bred to look pretty in trotting motion, nothing else. It's also kind of ridiculous how the judges talk about historical and utilitarian purposes, even though the show lines have created so much excess (hair, slope of back, flat faces) that most of the dogs you see will never be used for those purposes. I understand that most people don't use dogs for hunting/herding/etc. anymore, but it's kind of silly to be talking about historical purposes when that is clearly not what's going on with the dogs in the ring. It's a beauty pageant, not a working trial. I think these observations alone are enough that we should start questioning the integrity of the whole system.
People are treating purebred dogs like bonsai trees to carefully shape and groom to present to the judges rather than companion animals. What everyone should be doing is trying to produce dogs that are level-headed, healthy, and easier to live with (i.e. if you're breeding border collies strictly for pets why not try to tone down their drive a bit? If you are breeding bull terriers how about selecting for more trainable animals? Shelties? How about less barking?). And why not outcross to bring some heterozygosity and increased vitality back? Again, the closing of the registry after the founding event is ARBITRARY. It would in fact be much better for the health of the dogs as a whole to bring in new blood once and a while. Even more importantly, how about re-directing our efforts to reduce the number of dogs needlessly killed because there are simply too many? I know, I digress - it just seems so silly to be producing dogs to fit some arbitrary standard when there are so many endeavors we could all take on that would *actually* improve the lives of companion animals and owners everywhere.
And just for the record - I love the old style bull terriers.
good.. breed some.. sell them and make up your own standard. short and simple
DeleteThe bone structure photo this guy has listed is freaky.
ReplyDeleteIt's on this site http://www.hinksoldtymebullterriers.webs.com/ and
this is the photo I refer too
http://hinksoldtymebullterriers.webs.com/clinorhynchy_bull_terrier.jpg
I can see why some bull terriers might bump into their food bowl as Frida Nyberg said.
Go google Gull Terrier, their use and temprament. At least the modern bully is a family orientated dog who has left the pit legacy behind. The Gull Terrier in India is an extention of the original Hinks Bull and Terrier cross and has not evolved in looks. However with that the temprament has also not evolved and this is not what we strive to go back to. We prefer our dogs to be unique and not to be mistaken with pit bulls and the like/
ReplyDeleteHadn't seen these before. Interesting. And yes, they do like Pits/a lot of dog.
DeleteAnd I do see the problem here given the Pit Bull issue. I could definitely see the Hinks being popular with those who like Pit Bulls.
But of course devolving the dog back to how it used to look doesn't mean embracing the original temperament.
Jemima
I am one of "those who like pit bulls" and do not see them as an "issue". I am surprised to see you of all people who work in rescue show such bias. "Pit bulls" ( there really is no such breed)are killed daily in the USA and in your country just because of the way they look. You are not helping by your prejudicial and bigoted comments.
Deleteto Anon 8:43.. I also have many people comment asking if my dog is a "pit bull". I tell them no but explain that no dog is really "bad" etc.. I hope you do the same. The idea that somehow being unique will keep us from the quite frankly stupid people who believe that a dog is what his body and skin are is a false notion and one to be feared.. you know the poem:
"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. etc
Martin Niemöller
Jan, we have enough scraps on the go without you inventing one. The "issue" I refer to is the fact that pit bulls suffer because they are targeted by breed-not-deed legislation. If you scroll up, you'll see a comment from someone saying that one advantage of the head is that the BT is distinct enough from a Pit to not attract that sort of attention. My comment is a back-ref to that.
DeleteJemima
Hi Bestuvall, my comment regarding pit bulls and the like is specifically directed at the BSL laws so harshly targeting specific breeds by means of their "looks". I prefer to think that keeping a distinct look to Bullies and educating the public what the differences are, will exempt the breed from the same paranoia surrounding pitties and the like. And you still get people that confuse a Pit Bull with a EBT. One classic example is the name of the Bullie in Babe pig in the City. He is called PB which is short for PitBull.....
Deleteactually he is a mini bull.. so adorable;.. I too think the BT look nothing like a APBT ( American Pit Bull Terrier) or the rest of the bull breeds because of our unique head shape but we must be vigilant not to attempt to separate ourselves too much lest we fall into the "feed the crocodile " syndrome. I know you do not feel this way and support all breeds but after being in the political soup of fighting BSL for more years than I can count I know NO breed is exempt.. not even our BT's.. they are banned in several cities in the USA and can be confiscated if they are found there..but enough.. this is off topic although it might be nice to see a blog about BSL. Now THAT is pernicious behavior at it most dangerous
DeleteHaving put a full size english bull terrier to sleep when she went blind from PLL and heard through the owner of several others I am not convinced the problem is purely confined to the miniatures. I'd love to tell you what lines the dog came from but I don't know. But, yes, there is now a DNA test and the breed is doing realy good work to get rid of this faulty gene and that is something crossbreeders and go it alone breeders don't have the money and man power to get organised.
ReplyDeleteI just had to ask if these 'old tyme' EBT's were also being tested because for me they are definitley at risk.
VP
sorry to hear this. in my 30 or so years of owning and breeding BT's I have not heard of PLL in a standard BT.. was she registered? If you do not know the lines then perhaps a "mini" was slipped in there somewhere, in any case it is a terrible thing and as you say I am glad that through the efforts of pedigreed dog breeders we can eliminate PLL in ALL breeds and even mixed breeds if any would ever test for it... however you are correct.. cross breeders usually have no knowledge of this defect and will never test for it.. one more reason to always buy a dog from a good breeder.
DeleteYes it would be good to know if Mr Ingles and other like him being touted here in the blog as "doing the right thing" and producing "working all rounder" Bull Terriers ( whatever that means) are doing health testing. Jemima?? any answers on that score?
I am sure Mr Ingles is a very nice man and he loves the type of dog he breeds.. no problem.. it is not a 'my dog is better than your dog' situation. If you prefer the old fashioned type . BUY ONE ..keep it love it breed it whatever. Is it really a problem? Not to me or anyone else I know that breeds BT's. Mr Ingles has his ideas and we have ours. looks like the twain shall never meet but so what? looks like this blogger is in "create a crisis" mode on this one
Mountain.. meet molehill
Hooray for Lyndon Ingles! Now can he bring the GSD to what it was in those early pics in Captain Von Stephanitz's book?
ReplyDeleteShould have added, glad for Lyndon's work but while we've spoken a lot about physique here, what about OCD in the breed? Has Lyndon addressed this issue as well in his lines?
ReplyDeleteI like both , but the old style and lyndons dogs are a lot more athletic and prob havnt got all the health probs the kc club do , the kennel clubs seems to take good dogs and turn them into caricatures of there former selves due to inbreeding
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Deletehttp://www.thehuntinglife.com/ to see the working Bull Terier
ReplyDeleteI've got an Ingles Bullterrier pup; incredible intelligence for problem-solving, agility, recognisably clown-like giving us all a laugh. Although a pet, he will also be given the opportunity for all kinds of hunting when adult, most notably as a catch-dog with boars. He'll learn the ropes through my Pit/Dogo cross and then his "holding" genes will kick in. I have faith that Mr Ingles has selected his stock well from a working point of view and I hope to be able to maximise my lad's potential.
ReplyDeleteHe has a very sensibily constructed head and physique, something he'll need for his hunting pursuits
What is wrong with you people?! It's just an image that has been fed to you as there are a few idiots out there who use Staffordshire terriers and English bulls as an extension of there bad attitude. I've owned Labradors and red setters and now an English bullie and I can honestly he is the sweetest most gentle animal I have ever owned, I see more danger with total retards buying out of control springer spaniels and border collies who can't train them. There are so many breeds now that are a total state, pugs have breathing problems, Dalmatians, blah blah blah the list is endless but the English bullie seems to get such a bad reputation, why? Because people love to judge before they even pet one. I've never seen a dog getso much attention as my little one which goes to show there are many who aren't so narrow minded.
ReplyDeleteI have two females from the same litter. They are both old world style (concave below the eyes). One very human oriented, the other very prey oriented. Both raised in the same household. I detest the roman nose type. There is no rational function to it which can only mean it is for show purposes only. I've seen this with other types of show animals. It's all about marketing hype. New and improved equates to "more money for me and those elite folks like me" which is nothing more than clever marketing aimed at doing only one thing...getting more of your money. Preserving the original type isn't these breeders aim. Getting your money is. Been there, seen that. Just with another show animal. Different animal. Same greed.
ReplyDeletemy bull terrier is just like the old bull terrier, that means its no pure?
ReplyDeleteSo going by that statment,your saying the bull terrier of old is not pure? If the old bull terrier is not pure please could/would you explain to us how the "new" bull terrier is pure? There was me thinking all dog's are cross bred some were or other.check out major count v.c.hollender and actor tom wall's along with other's.try guessing what they were doing. while your there maybe you could tell us why they changed the original breed standard along with the stafford's. Be safe all, enjoy your animal's and life.
DeleteThe breed standard calls for a head shaped like an egg (as mentioned prior). The reason for the egg shape is that it gives the mouth more fullness and strength - this is subjective. There is no dysfunction to the dog as a result of the egg shaped head. It is - in my opinion the best looking dog out there so all you knockers get back in your box. I have known them to be strong, fit, intelligent and with few health problems. I may think many other breeds are ugly but i would not say it to the lovers of the breed. Any derivation from the wolf due to mans influence falls into this category.
ReplyDeleteI quite agree, that trere exist breed standards, that mention about Bull Terrier`s egg shape head, but as for me it`s more pleasant to look at Bull Terrier of 1925-s! I think, that dog breeders should also think about dog`s well-balansed appearance as Bull Terrier should catch eyes for its pleasant look!
ReplyDeleteThese dogs are known to have many health issues due to their breeding including a range of neurological problems including aggression disorders and epilepsy to name but a few, mostly this is because of the inbreeding and 'crufts' requirements for judging these dogs and slowly they have ended up looking the way they do. My partner has a EBT and they are lovely dogs that are for an experienced owner but do come with many health problems including lumps and warts. All pedigree dogs are bred to 'crufts' standards so the blame is with them and the breeders really, and the human races selfish ways of having to manipulate every part of the planet and the creatures in it to suit ourselves. sad but true, more disturbing is King Charles Spaniels who's brains start to outgrow their skulls as a result from constantly trying to change the animals appearance.
ReplyDeleteActually, no. These issues are extremely rare in cases of WELLBRED bull terriers.
DeleteBeing that I own a bull terrier I have to say in general I like their appearance and personality, but the breed has all but lost it's past athleticism. My bully struggles to jump onto a park bench, whereas my apbt is capable of climbing and jumping fences, he's also far more obedient and less lazy and stubborn. I would like to see the English bull terrier bred more like it was in the days of old, a lean, muscular athletic dog eager to please it's family.
ReplyDeleteThen buy a apbt lol
DeleteLooking at this from a neutral point of view, and trying to add some balance, i thought the point of these blogs was to highlight "actual" health problems caused by pure breeding? So without any evidence of health issues that would make this blog either just you venting about a breed you don't like or to antagonise those who do like them. Which is it Jemima? Or is this blog just like the EBT's head? "Pointless and ugly".
ReplyDeletePointless and ugly snarky blog post. Uninformed and uninformative.
ReplyDeleteThe Bull terrier is more beautiful than it's ever been...
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I'm amazed at how many people are commenting who nothing about this breed, or dogs for that fact. Thank God they are only opinions. Sheesh!
For all the inquiring minds bull terrier does not equal pit bull....american bully doesn't equal pit bull ......bulldogs does not equal pit bull. American pit bull terrier equals pit bull. Opinions on one breed should be taken as a grain of salt when those opinions come from uneducated minds ......
DeleteA pitbull is a type of dog not to be confused with the American pitbull terrier. Some examples of pitbull-type dogs are the dogo argentino, cane corso, presa canario, American bulldog (Scott type), bandogge (not to be confused with bully's), bully kutta, amd gull terrier, to name a few. Hence, American pitbull terrier is a breed that also includes American Staffordshire terriers. Just fyi.
DeleteOld thread, but worth my 2 cents.
ReplyDeleteExposure to homo sap has not always been kind to animals...people like to meddle, and their reasons, unlike those of nature, are rarely selfless and necessary.
I have been reading each of the comments listed above. I honestly like both the old time Bull Terrier and the modern show ring type. So I can only come up with one solution: those who like the Hinks/Ingles/old time bullies better should start breeding them and let the others be. What is the problem about having one, two, or three types of Bull Terrier anyway? There is a Miniature and a Standard BT, right? Why not more? That is what the dog fancy is about as long as the dogs are healthy and bred responsibly. The egg-shaped head is not detrimental to the health of the show ring dogs. At least there is no proof of that so far. That's for sure. The question is will the KC, AKC, CKC, FCI, and so on ever recognize an old time looking bully? Will they ever recognize a Dorset Olde Tyme Bulldogge which by the way look awesome? And if they don't, who cares? You will enjoy a dog of your liking, won't you? And please don't ask me why breed more dogs if there are plenty of them in shelters waiting for a home. I am fully aware of that but we are talking about a specific breed of dog here for those who, like me, love BT's and we should stick to that topic here.
ReplyDeleteP.S. If you want to see an old type BT in action, watch the 1955 movie "It's a dog's life". It is available on youtube.
modern bull terriers do suffer breathing problems due to the skull shape, the sharp bend in the skull is right at the soft palate.
ReplyDeleteIt's not a dog if it's not a Bull Terrier!
ReplyDeleteThe most magnificent looking dog on the planet!
The Ferrari and Lamborghini of dogs!!!!
Their breathing Is fine!
You obviously have little experience with working dogs outside this breed, if you think they are the Ferrari or Lamborghini of dogs. Lol
DeleteApparently reading here the head shape is not a health issue, but I look at it straight away and think, that head shape must cause problems in the process of giving birth, let alone effect their sight. Please read this piece on the Universities Federation for Animal Welfare website: http://www.ufaw.org.uk/DYSTOCIAENGLISHBULLDOG.php
ReplyDeleteIf you are breeding dogs that their heads can not pass through a bitches pelvis, then the head is a health problem and maybe you also have a head problem. They also often have breathing issues due to also being brachy. Bracycephalic is the width of the cranium being the same or wider than the length of the cranium and does not include the length of the nose. One of the higher risk breeds to put under anesthetic, due to their head conformation.
This size dog if healthy and fertile, you would like to have a litter average of at least 6, hopefully around 8, but they average around 5, which shows low fertility for the size dog they are.
Oops, sorry that is the right comment, but for the wrong breed. Although the English Bull Terrier head shape I think is not good for a bitch giving birth and this is reflected in the steady rise in c-sections in this breed. The Journal of small animal practice, published in 2009 an article on the about of c-sections done on pure breeds and the percent figure for c-sections in the bull terrier is 23.1 % and if you are nearing in a breed 1 in 4 bitches producing litters by c-section, alarm bells should be starting to be taken notice of and these dogs are reported to have soft palate issues, equaling breathing difficulties.
DeleteUnfortunately most who breed or own these dogs tend to only have them as a yard stick to compare health and have little understanding of anatomy of the skull and the functions of the skull. The skull is not just an ornament , it actually performs some pretty important functions for the dog.
The bull terrier like the Bulldog for size has pretty dismal average size litters, being only around 5 on average, a dog this size with good health and fertility should easily be averaging 6 or above for litters.
No doubt they will carry on with the head shape, getting it ever more exaggerated not heeding the warnings it is already giving, just like the bulldog breeders, pug breeders etc etc etc !
Question: How many dogs lives in a breed have to suffer from breeding for an exaggeration that is just for ascetics, before the breeders realize the exaggeration is causing them to suffer ?
Answer: The whole breed.
If the low fecundity (a good thing in pets, IMO) is from a health issue in bullies (and it may very well be) , I doubt it is because of the head shape. Norman Bel Geddes and Raymond Loewe couldn't have come up with a more streamlined design. Nor could Bucky Fuller have, this is the dymaxion dog here. I'm no vet, but I am a designer, that head should be no problem in the birth canal. For pity's sake, it's EGG SHAPED!
DeleteI did not say low fertility was anything to do with the head shape. Low fertility is probably more to do with inbreeding within most pure breeds.
DeleteThe dog is not a chicken and designed to give birth to eggs, so by having this shape head rather than a longer narrow nose, you actually make the head less streamline and decrease central pressure of the nose and mouth against the cervix, which slows down the release of oxytocin, decreasing the strength of contractions or speed of them, so can slow up birth considerably. Also breeding them with more width across the shoulders, whilst the pelvis is not getting wider is causing dystocia, just like bulldogs.
Humans birth is one of the hardest and slowest on average, because the head is egg shaped, it is an evolutionary pay off for a bigger brain. What is the pay off for the bull terrier, just you like the look of it.
Xenophora, If you think reducing an animals fertility is a good thing, I must take it that you don't know a whole lot about fertility and reproduction and it's importance in indicating the health of a species ?
DeleteYour comment about being "EGG Shaped" I must also presume you are confusing dogs with chickens and you don't no much about the whole process of a dog giving birth ?
You did make me laugh though, that you think a dog giving birth to an egg shape would be easier and gives a real insight into how little people know how dogs suffer for a look they like.
Xenophora, so you think a long narrow pointed nose is less streamlined than an egg shape and apparently you're a designer. Obviously not very good at designing streamlined things. Maybe those Grand Prix, Formula One designers are missing a trick and the cars should be egged shaped. Lol
DeleteI have had had several bull terriers over the years, typey and not so much. Healthy and, again, not so much. The bull terriers I got from an English breeder were fabulous athletes, more like superheroes than dogs. My favorite was "pet quality" with a snipey jaw and cow hocks and a gay tail. He was the doggy love of my life and I still miss him. But there was another dog, some years later, from a Mickey Mouse Californian breeder who was a wreck. Nice egg head and terrible feet. He was one health issue after another. I kept him and loved him and looked after him. I stayed up nights crying and I emptied my bank account. Certainly that money would have been better put towards stopping world hunger, but there you go. He was my dog and he was suffering. But the hell I would ever buy another purebred dog again and support that sort of cupidity and stupidity. This was a problem for me because I am definitely of the "if it's not a bull terrier, it's only a dog" mindset. I solved that problem by going the rescue route. I figure that's the way to have your cake and eat it too. Enjoy the breed you like, but not encourage the breeding of more of them. And when you are out with your purebred dog in public, be honest about all the health issues and talk about all the money you have to spend at the vets. Especially with bullies, talk people out of them. They aren't for everyone even if they are healthy because most people have no idea how to live with an animal that isn't like a cartoon character or a doll. They don't know how to keep their labs and poodles from jumping on the neighbors and they sure can't manage the canine cannonball that is the bull terrier. I don't have a dog now, but if I ever do have one again I will get another rescue bull terrier, old style or new style, whatever, whoever needs a home. But if I do and happen to get a new one with that extreme egg-shaped T. rex with a crocodile grin and those little varminty eyes just sparking mischief, I will bask in the beauty of it.
ReplyDeleteYour a fucking idiot. The modern bull terrier breed has become the way it is today because of how much that look was desired. To make a completely uneducated comment about a breed based on the early stages of the breeds development is utterly idiotic. The modern bull terrier is highly respected around the world some dog person you are fuck face
ReplyDeleteHigkly respected by who ? Could you elaborate on your claim, minus expletives ?
DeleteThere are no health problems associated with the unusual shape of the Bull Terrier's head. It's odd, yes (ugly is a matter of opinion), but not harmful. I am far more worried about dogs with extreme modifications that cause suffering to the dog. The flat faces of breeds like Bulldogs and Pugs cause breathing difficulties and eye problems. The short legs and long backs of breeds like the Dachshund and Basset Hound cause joint and spine problems. The loose folds of skin on breeds like Bloodhounds and Shar Peis are prone to infections and chafing. These are issues which need addressing for the benefit of the dogs.
ReplyDeleteThat's what they said about the shape of Cavaliers heads, pugs head etc etc and look where we are now. Keep denying until you almost totally destroy the breed that's how it goes, nothing changes just the breed.
DeleteI have a large male bully 36kg with a huge roman nose .He is the biggest old softey you could ever meet.His eyesight is unbelievable can sniff out anything , and dosen't have any issues with being breathless. as for dog being bred for wolves have a look at a yorkie,great dane,poodle westies ,none of them bare any resemblance to a wolf
ReplyDeleteUgly, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think Bull Terriers are gorgeous, but I can see why they don't appeal to everyone. However, that doesn't mean they should be altered. I mean, I think Labradors are ugly, but I wouldn't suggest the whole breed should be changed because I don't like the way it looks. People's differing opinions on what's attractive are partly the reason we have so many diverse breeds, and it's one of the great things about dogs - there's something for everyone.
ReplyDeleteI only have a problem with the way a dog looks if those looks are detrimental to its health. For example, I disagree with breeding for the squashed muzzles of breeds like Pugs, Bulldogs and Boxers because the animals suffer as a result. In these cases it's irrelevant whether or not you find them ugly or cute - the welfare of the animal is the issue. It is wrong to breed for features that cause suffering just because some people like the look of them.
I think bull terriers are cute. I only have a problem with a dog's appearance if it affects the dog negatively in a medical way. Like how we have overbred the English Bulldog to the point where it has dental issues, joint issues, breathing problems etc. They used to be larger and have longer legs and they had no wrinkles what-so-ever. It's kind of sad actually.
ReplyDeleteWho knows why our specie is not coherent at all in matter of conscience meaning havin also honest ethic. What do we HONESTLY want owing a Bull terrier or another breeds those genes ?
ReplyDeletePsycologically interesting question .
Who knows why bull terrier enthusiast are never satisfyed about the breed. The breed has a standard, if a standard ( all of them) is clear and respected the breeders and the judjes should not have problems to do well. However to produce the best some parameters should not be disappointed.Sondness and stability come first.
ReplyDeleteWe have a pedigree male bullie who would be classed as having a modern head, but not the exaggerated parrot head some breeders prefer. He's lean, solid muscle and fairly leggy. In Italy apparently they group BT's into four categories and he probably would be classed as the Dalmation type. One things for certain, he is an athlete when he wants to be, but certainly sly enough to pretend he's a couch potato if he wants to get his own way! This breed cannot be matched for their comedic temperaments and once you've shared your life with one.. There's no going back!
ReplyDeleteMy 5 Bull Terriers are gorgeous! And their Roman noses is exactly what makes them so beautiful! I would double dare you to stand in my presence and tell me my dogs are ugly!!!
ReplyDeleteAs they say, "Love is blind."
DeleteHi all just want to ad I own banned apbt
ReplyDelete2 years bitch and 5 1:2 Ebt to those who say the dogs ugly that's your interpretation and a form of bulling excuse the pun like a troll coward the bull terrier has a level of loyalty that's rare in human being I love the original bull terrier mine has the same blood line all the show broken spirit ones each to there own bull terrier heart is huge they will tackle anything fearless I love them I bred me boy and kept his son badger when his son got to big he and dad thought the day had the better jaw power but his son was the better scrapper were kept Louie boy a great producer he may be ugly to some but ill tell you what if ever owner in danger they will fight to the end to protect his family
unlike some scared keyboard warriors that ain't got a clue he's only got pitbull bitch pregnant So going to have Apbt x Ebt Bull terriers do exactly what it says on the tin x
I beg to differ. I adore this goofy, cute head that resembles a rugby ball. In Japan they say BUSUKAWAII meaning: So ugly that they're cute. Like a baby pig.
ReplyDeleteWell the picture they are referring to as a Bull terrier from 1915 is not a Bull terrier it is a extinct breed called the English white terrier which was a precursor to the English bull terrier. There are many pictures out there from around this Same time period that shows the dog look the exact same as my minibull now. There are some variations of heads in the Bread it all depends on the style the breeder is looking for some have overly exaggerated egg head and some have what people call a shark head. Some people perfer the egg over the shark and vice versa. But to say this breed has been diluted is absolutely false because this is actually one of the most preserved breeds out there
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely disgusting
ReplyDeletei dont car what u think of me arfyer saying this BUT bull terrier are all cute no mater what so what they may have adnormal head SO WHAT and to thank of it there are breeds that look wors and in pain with how they have been breeded. Aslong as the dog is happy and helfy so what get over there looks
ReplyDeleteI do wonder if the head shape may be related to the neurological issues that are common within the breed, but as far as I know there have been no studies looking into it.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't affect them in anyway, it makes them better for attacking boars and bulls and things.
ReplyDelete