But no. There wasn't a nostril between them.
 |
| Cataracts too... perhaps just an older dog |
Dogs pant through their mouths - but they breathe through their nostrils. To get an idea of what this feels like, close your mouth and pinch your nostrils. Even the slightest pressure feels awful. Increase it and it's impossible not to feel panic.
This is what too many in this breed has to endure. The restricted airflow means the dogs have to make an increased effort to breathe which leads to (or is accompanied by) a host of airway pathology, often requiring surgery.
 |
| Stenotic nares - before and after surgery |
But ask yourself this: if they were really that concerned, would they have allowed these dogs to be put on display as examples of the breed?
I can only see two other possible reasons:
Either they are ignorantly unaware of the suffering caused by breeding dogs with stenotic nares like this.
Or there aren't any Frenchies with normal nostrils.
Not of course that the public, equally culpable in all this, gives a shit. The French Bulldog breed stand was packed with lots of people cooing over the cute little dogs with the smushed-in faces.
There were just 349 French Bulldogs registered with the Kennel Club in 2003. Last year there were 4648 and, in just the first three quarters of this year, 4843.
I will be attending this event tomorrow... looking forward to it.
Such a shame. The good news is there are lots of better frenchies out there. Our practice has quite a few on the books with short but there noses, decent nostrils and living to ripe old ages. Maybe they wouldn't score highly in the ring but these ones score well as pets at least and offer hope for improving the breed.
ReplyDeleteVP
The Kennel Club, oh the Kennel Club, what are you thinking about, who are you trying to please, what are you hoping to achieve? It seems that you may be complicit in the destruction of pedigree dogs rather than their "champion". How or why can a "self appointed professional body" be seen to be so publicly stupid, when their whole being is set up for the welfare and care of dogs. When are they going to publicly respond to your exposures and inform of us why they think that these cruel, demeaning, painful conditions are acceptable because they meet their standards of construction within their breed standards. The standard may not say squeezed nostrils are desirable as such but that they accept registration for this type, allow judges to place affected animals at their KC regulated shows, is tantamount to complicit active animal cruelty. The more you inform us of these practices the more I mistrust, dislike and feel utter disgust for the KC. They are nothing but a money making machine who now deal in commodities, and that commodity happens to be our much loved pets, our dogs. The public cannot be whiplashed for buying the puppies, the very set up of Discovery Dogs enables them to see pedigree dogs of different breeds, it is driven by the KC, and for the GP, the KC is a respected, honest dog loving set up, just like they perceive themselves to be, so if the KC publicly displays "damaged cute dogs" they will believe that the KC is implying that the dogs are healthy and fit for purpose. Some could say "open misrepresentation of the sales of goods act?". They won't ask questions because they are not aware of any problems, it up to breeders and KCs to inform of high risk, potentially expensive bills and short life span of a very expensive puppy. Were there any health indicators displayed by each of the breeds explaining potential problems within the particular breed? The heartbreak, the disappointment, the anger when they learn the truth is so cruel to inflict on innocent new owners. FBs do not, nor does any breed, deserve such disregard and exploitation from anybody, never mind the people who allegedly love and care for them.
ReplyDeletePeople ASSUME that kennel clubs and dog clubs CARE and even LOVE dogs. I have found that this assumption is often based in our own feelings of the heart, not in cold thought and careful study of the reality in font of us.
DeleteAS someone once told me: "When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
People have many different reasons for joining clubs, and for breeding and showing dogs, love of dogs is only one of the many reasons. IF people loved dogs, would they breed them to suffer?
So, so many stenotic nares. It really makes me wonder - why do they keep appearing at all? Is it deliberate, because they somehow find it more cute? Or is there some other selection criteria, like a wrinkle on the face, which makes the dog more likely to have tightly closed nostrils? Or is it totally unintentional, the result of genetic drift in an increasingly lossy inbred population? Did a few popular sires happen to have them and now everyone does?
ReplyDeletecschodde2: it seems to go hand in hand with the extreme brachy face, as "semi-brachy" dont seem to have them, and all brachy breeds seem to, pugs, bulldogs, frenchies, bostons, etc etc. just an observation based on looking at pictures and dogs. there might be more genetic information known so hopefully someone else chimes in
DeleteIt certainly does seem like the brachy breeds have more prevalence of stenotic nares. Though since posting that post, I've also found that there are examples of really extremely brachy dogs managing to have large nostrils, like this bulldog here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg5DezDsgc
DeleteOf course, the proof is in the pudding with that dog. I notice that the breeder talks a lot about how his dog hasn't been panting at all during the event but he doesn't get the dog to walk around briskly to show no signs of breathing impairment.
I've also noticed that operations to open up stenotic nares also often involve widening the passage deeper inside the nostril - so while we may see what looks like a nice wide open passage on the outside, the internal plumbing of the nose could be just as bung as in another extreme brachy.
Seems like the Frenchie s at a good point for active intervention and intensive public education. Indications are that there are healthy dogs around, and that the genetic resources are around to put the breed on the right track. Public attention also there, looking for pets, not show dogs.
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable. Frenchies, usurping Pugs as cuddly smushed face dogs hardly able to breathe.
ReplyDeleteThat Frenchie's eyes that look like cataracts is most likely just the lighting.
ReplyDeleteI still find it incredible that the public are not better versed in dog health and what is and isn't healthy. It doesn't help that the breed reps on the stands are often very good at making the health issues of their particular breed seem less of an important issue. I remember talking to the Pekingese breed reps at Crufts last year ansd when I raised the subject of their breathing and overall health I was told there is no real issues with them compared to other breeds, that they don't struggle for breath and are very long lived. Rather then have a decent and honest discussion with me about the breed, I was fobbed off basically.
Louise
I don't disagree that these pups epitomize unhealthy, with their stenotic nares and smushed faces, but I think the "cataracts" might be lenticular sclerosis, a hardening of the lens in older dogs and quite common.
ReplyDeleteI thought cataracts, both kinds, juvenile and old age, was a common hereditary disorder in French Bulldogs. It is my understanding that there is now a DNA test for it for French Bulldogs which shows it the dog is clear, carrier or affected.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.akcchf.org/news-events/library/articles/hereditary-cataract-in-french.html
I am active in a breed of dog that has genetic eye problems and I even have my rescues have eye exams (CERF). I live in the U.S.
This breed has never been uncommon in the US. I've always seen them. They sort of go hand-in-hand with the Bostonian breed. It's a shame that I actually really do like French bulldogs.
ReplyDeleteThis is epic! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKejK2fDTo
I love how the third dog appears to be trying to break up the little tiff lol
DeleteLet us know how the meeting goes at building better brachycephalics... Even though my guesses are that it might be a waist of time...
ReplyDeleteIndeed. I don't think you can have the extremely short muzzle desired in these dogs without having to compromise their health to some degree. Hell, not even Boxers are exempt of the issues related to the extreme brachycephaly and they have way more muzzle than these dogs.
DeleteJoe Garp
Well, let's hope it went well... there is really no evident progress being made, and the time is ticking. I wish the kennel club had cojones in demanding the moderation in extreme profiles in pugs, bulldogs, frenchies and etc...
DeleteSo pleased you are highlighting the French bulldogs. I am working with two at the moment, both under five months - they are both sickly and regularly visiting their vets.One already has a Grade 2 heart murmur, now under investigation. Thank god one had a vet ethical enough to warn them to get a good health insurance policy, I bullied the other.
ReplyDeleteDid I mention that one arrived and was already biting when handled?!!!
And as for the pug puppy currently training with me ... it breaks my heart that it has to work so hard to pick up scents - the racket that accompanies such a basic function is unbelievable.
I'd love a blog on your thoughts about how vets deal with new puppy owners when they attend their first consultation. I get the impression that they rarely warn their new clients about the genetic illnesses they may be carrying for fear of loosing the client.
I hope there is something positive coming out of the conference, looking forward to seeing your write up.
H
I cringe every time I see a reccomendation for a pet pug owner group on facebook called " little snorters" as if its cute
DeleteThese people are either sick, stupid or ignorant.
DeleteOr, maybe poorly educated about the issues and blinded by 'love' for their 'little snorters'.
Suggest someone suggests changing the Facebook group name to ' 'brachycephalic airway syndrome enablers'. Doesn't sound so cute now does it?
*sigh*
I always discuss the health problem their new pet may face due to it's breed or crossbreed (hairy ears in poodle crosses are a major cause of expensive, painful ear problems). I find the pedigree buyers are more aware of health issues than the crossbreed buyers (in fact one lab x poodle pup owner now refuses to see me because I warned her large dogs were always at higher risk of HD if not fed/exercised correctly and because I pointed out the mass of hair in her young dogs ears).
DeleteIt has to be done carefully to avoid alienating clients...after all by the time the vet sees them they have already made their decision. Few buyers come to ask our opinion first and even those that do often choose a breed in spite of it's health issues. I also warn the owners of working breed puppies exactly what they've got! So many cute cocker pups (with no health problems) can end up with serious behavioural issues if their working drive is not correctly channelled.
Health/behaviour counselling is a really important part of puppy consults at my clinic...but not everyone is listening!
VP
vet ethical enough to warn them to get health insurance? To insure against an existing known condition. I may have been unlucky but some vets not only go the extra mile when the dog is insured but get on a train as well. I met one guy whose dog had years of problems with allergies .The vet told him to have the dog PTS that was one ethical vet with a very good relationship with his client
DeleteCan you share a link for the latest breed registrations - all breeds?
ReplyDeleteMany thanks, H
Perhaps there needs to be awareness stalls at places like charity dog shows, where brachy owners educate the public on the health problems associated with these dogs.
ReplyDeleteI've never seen the appeal of flat-faced dogs, so I don't understand their popularity. Owners of brachy breeds would do a better job of educating Joe Public, because presumably they can see the dogs' appeal, whilst also being able to highlight the health issues and hopefully deter people from buying them, without it being seen as just scaremongering. I know the RSPCA brought-out a 'Born to Suffer' campaign, but I don't think it had any kind of impact.
I think the reason it has no impact is because there really is no appropriate platform that will target the GP in such a way to have any emotional effect. Plus, there are so many mixed messages about Brachy dogs - you see Pugs and Frenchies in adverts and in fashion mags as accessories in designer handbags etc. which I think is highly unethical. These dogs are advertised as being covetable and desirable (strangley). Just like the designer handbags they are popped into. Just look at the Harrods ad that JH posted regarding the Frenchies at 8k a pop....it's like it's one mire thing to add to your list of items to advertise to people that you are trendy or cool. Sick.
DeleteI watched the Morrisons Christmas advert (tables groaning with food) the other evening and this advert was immediately followed by an advert raising awareness and funds for starving children in Africa. I felt shocked, saddened and guilty. Futile emotional response really, as it hardly tackles the root cause of the problem there, but it had direct effect on my nervous system which bypasses any logical thought processing.
Therefore, I suggest we use guilt.....There are loads of TV adverts with dogs in. Follow one of these with an RSPCA campaign to highlight the welfare issues of breeding dogs who cannot breathe properly. The Brachycephalic awareness campaign. OK so you want a dog? You want a dog that looks cute? Well this is the cost of that.......show them the awful videos of sick dogs and upset owners. Vets discussing the problems etc. i.e. THE REALITY!
Hit 'em where it hurts because the education isn't getting through. This sort of targeting has been relatively effective for raising awareness about the dangers of smoking, drink driving etc.
Getting the breeders to raise awareness would be amazing if they could be persuaded. If they purport to love the breed a smuch as they do, you'd think they'd be doing everything they could to educate Joe Public, who so desperately needs it.
Blogs like this one help dog lovers understand dog problems. "Born to Suffer" ads do carry the right message to everybody - but public attention flys by like a leaf in the wind.
DeleteTruely, I think what/who we need to understand people who torture-breed dogs, is some type of shrink, a person who studies abnormal thought patterns in PEOPLE.
There has to be some sort of crazy factor which causes people to breed dogs so that they are doomed to suffer - and to have shows that give ribbons to the worst offenders. Something is sick in this business, and I don't mean the dogs. Professional help is needed to understand this sub-culture.
And you are correct Fran in your words but until the KC gives honest, direct health information the puppy buying public will continue to buy into huge vet bills with the ultimate too early loss of a much loved pet. Vets could display in their waiting rooms posters that could guide prospective new owners of the braccy breeds. Don't forget that the reason these breeds sell well is because "they are no bother" from an exercise point of view, tend not to bark for long periods because they can't walk and can't breathe, they are the easy option to owning a dog. If they take out insurance even the vet fees are acceptable, another easy option, but when that dog dies in their arms at an early age from a totally avoidable condition is when the truth hits home. The breeders really need to be aware because of potential high risk litigation because it will happen. All of the braccy breeds are charming in their own way and just a bit of thought and care when breeding would help them to become healthy again. If they are expected to live, they must be able to breathe surely, there are good breeders and there are people trying to put right the problems, but they face adversity and anger from the ignorant greedy breeders. I'll say it again and again, the poor dogs, it is so cruel.
ReplyDelete"There were just 349 French Bulldogs registered with the Kennel Club in 2003. Last year there were 4648 and, in just the first three quarters of this year, 4843."
ReplyDeleteThat's a spectacular increase, especially for a breed with serious reproductive problems. Does your source include figures for imports, or are those all domestics?
I don't think one should ignore temperament in looking at breed success. For some reason, the short-haired brachy small dogs seem to be friendly, spunky, playful, and unaggressive. There are a lot of people who want a small dog but don't want a terrier or a chihuahua . . . or a dog with a high maintenance coat. I was cycling on a bike path the other day and passed a family going the other way. Mom had a Frenchie in her bike basket. Things like that make a big contribution to 'cute'.
I do wonder how much of that temperament is because of their physical limitations. Would they behave the same if they were to have a better body? I wonder.
DeleteJoe Garp
most of the " short faced" breeds i've had dealing with have the same comical temperament. not as doggy . Nothing to do with physical limitations. probably they are just more highly bred to be close companions compared to terriers or collies
DeleteJemima
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that you don’t understand how Discover Dogs works so let me elucidate;
The KC ask the Breed Clubs to run the stands. The Breed Clubs then nominate people to represent the breeds. They are all volunteers and get no pay or expenses other than free entry to the show and a cup of tea.
The Clubs often struggle to find people to do it; it’s a long day and means driving into London and probably finding someone to look after dogs at home. Every stands needs at least 4 dogs on it; 2 being stroked and fussed over whilst 2 rest. All too often because of the difficulties in finding volunteers there are only 1 or 2 dogs available.
My point is that no-one screens the dogs or often the people who man the stands. Oftyen they are not show people or show dogs, they are often dogs from rescue or welfare and for that reason on occasions poor or untypical examples of the breed may appear; It’s not the KC’s “fault”., its not the breed clubs fault; it just happens.
I was there on Saturday and I was impressed by all the health info available on all the stands. It’s sad that you seek to poor cold water on Discover Dogs; in my opinion it’s the most important event that the KC run; it’s there simply to try and educate the public and steer then into making correct choices. If you look at the KC’s annual report it loses the KC lots of money! Perhaps you would rather they simply stop it.
Lastly you are right that (like us) dogs do breath through their nostrils but also like us they CAN and DO breathe through their mouths too, so your description of panic is misleading. I am not defending breeding dogs with stenotic nares but there are lots of Frenchies out there that breath quite normally, just a shame they weren’t at Discover Dogs on Sunday
Carol
You just gave a very good example of how much French Bulldog breeders care about their breed.
DeleteIf the show producers love their breed so much and get a free promotion day handed to them (my heart bleeds that they don't get paid) by the KC you would think they would be queing up to show us the strides they have made in breeding healthier dogs but us you told us they are not .
You hit the nail right on the head, the most show producers could not be bothered but they can find someone to look after the other dogs and travel the length of the country for a bit of silver and some ribbons.
I don't think Discover Dogs is tackling any of the problems we have with dogs in the UK . The event you say , "loses the KC money" , but let me elucidate you. The Discover Dogs event is for the KC much like a promotion event any business would do and its not revenue on the day but over the year or coming years that come off the event. Its called product promotion or placement and the KC 's product is pure breed dogs, so the knock on effect of Dog Discovery they would hope to see more sales of pure breed pups, so more registration with them etc, so I would imagine Dog Dicovery is part of the marketing strategy and in the long run they would expect it to bring in more revenue for them. It should really be called Discover Pure Breed Dogs as its a sales pitch for pure breeds.
Maybe its you that needs to be enlightened.
Jane in the UK
Maybe you need enlightening jane in uk as I hate to tell you this but we don't really get silver or ribbons (aussies do) we get a crap bit of card. Most of us travel to see our mates and sometimes to gwt the kudos of getting your dogs placed. Only at the top of the pecking order do any sort of extra benefits come in to play.
DeleteAnon 13:00 - so you do it for kudos. Or ego. 'Top of the pecking order.' What the heck does that even mean? The owner with the most exagerated dog (as judged) gets to be at the top of the pecking order!!? What a strange world the show world is.....therefore, they can call the shots and set the standard??
Deletecarol, it would seem like a completely unprofessional set up then. And with no money or prizes involved, most people CBA? At least, that's the impression you pose. Because if the breed club or KC gave a damn about those dogs and ensuring that education and welfare was indeed their priority, the KC or breed clunbs would simply not allow poor breeding or show 'poor' or 'untypical' examples of the breed to the general public. Would they? Or is it because they really couldn't give a flying fig about health and welfare, as long as people keep buying these defective animals and lining the pockets of the KC and the breeders?
And if there were lots of Frenchies 'out there' with nostrils who can breathe as nature intended, show us the evidence at Discover Dogs. Quit fobbing us off with excuses.
Yes fraid so.. do you think its cheap to make up a champion theb ship it abroard the ship it back.. no think not but for the rest of us we don't aspire for that.we just want to produce good healthy dogs and have a social day out with our friends. Don't keep lumping all breeds and breeders with a minority.
DeleteWe did it for the first time and it was great fun.short extract from the K C briefing sheet
DeleteDogs need not be of show quality
they should
a move freely without showing signs of shortness of breath
b not be significantly over or under weight
c not show any signs of lameness
d not show any irritationof or discharge from the eyes
e not show any exageration that would make the dog unsuitable to the breeds original purpose
f be well groomed
g be of good temperament
health statements on all breeds were required to be displayed handlers needed to be able to answer breed health questions;On some stands there were replacement teams coming in at intervals during the day Over 200 breeds on view .Leaflets were available on all the breeds .Hopefully potential puppy buyers find a breed that suits their lifestyle or more importantly not buy one that does not.There is no way the KC is aware or responsible for every dog displayed over the 2 days.I though they put on a very good show.
If the KC puts on an event they should be aware and responsible for the welfare of each dog on show because if they cannot be, they go against their ethos they try to promote about the KC. Quote from the KC website, "We are the UK's largest organisation dedicated to protecting the health and welfare of all dogs." If they cannot be held responsible for dogs right under their nose at the Disciver Dogs event then we have to ask, " are they fit for purpose."
DeleteOne hundred percent and indisputably correct anon 16:05, I wish I could be so eloquent and precise.
DeleteCarol, as you seem to be involved in the breed, can you tell me if any of the dogs in the photographs above are currently being shown in the UK? You will of course know that if you regularly attend shows. Thank you.
Deletethe other thing is French Bulldogs dont go hare coursing and the smaller the body the easier it is to dissipate heat (higher surface area to mass ratio)
DeleteThe french bulldog club of England have a very good web site detailing health issues within the breed and the way forward. There is also an excellent video in swedish with English sub titles where a judge admits a lot of the problems are caused by judges and further info as on diagnosis.In my view the breed club is on the ball. They also list Kennel Club regulations. They are aware that getting the breed right will be a long haul.
DeleteCarol, thank you for responding as a spokesman on behalf of the KC? Discover Dogs is what it is, an opportunity for the Gen Pub to see and meet different breeds with a possibility of adding one to their family in the future. I think the people who took the time and personal cost to attend to show off their breed "dogs from rescue or welfare and for that reason on occasions poor or untypical examples of the breed" is an elitist, unkind remark. Typical of the sneering attitude of the dog showing fraternity. These dogs are loved for what they are, they are not money making, glory seeking dogs of benefit to the bank balance, no they are just much loved dogs. DD is a fantastic advertising tool for the KC, an opportunity to reassure the Gen Pub that the KC is established solely for the well being of dogs and their owners and that a high percentage of their income is used for the benefit of dogs in health and rescue and welfare. To me it seems to be used for the glorification of the KC and self congratulation, the wicked use of the money to maintain and sustain exlusive, high maintenance property in central London is inexplicable. Stoneleigh is a move forward but not far enough. It's good that you point out that dogs can breathe through their mouths in addition to their nostrils, just as well really bearing in mind the cruelty of allowing dogs to be bred with closed nostrils. Accepting registrations with photographs of the puppies is the only way the KC should take money for these registrations and I guess microchipping to confirm that the puppy is the puppy will be necessary, a passport similar to horses etc. Some time cruising the rings at dog shows and witness the actual poor, distressing condition of some of the dogs bred to KC standard in an exaggerated way is where your time may be better spent. You would then empathise with why some of us are so distressed and scared for these show dogs and their welfare. I suspect a lot are shown as puppies and then discarded when the owners have to maintain them for no gain. They won't like that because a lot of them are so money driven they can't relate to the suffering they are causing to dogs. For the avoidance of doubt I know that there are good, honest reliable breeders out there but they are becoming more and more rare. A policy for the reduction in breeding dogs has to be undertaken and urgently it has to become a more restrained, thoughtful process.
ReplyDeletewe get it ,you blame the kennel club; Get a life.
DeleteWhoever you are Anon 11:54 you are ignorant and rude. I do not blame the KC perse, but the position they are in they could and should do a great deal more for dogs than the are seen to do. If they were more publicly active at the dog shows, approving, disapproving what the rest of us see at their licensed shows they, and you, would understand. The real concern in any of the topics related to the welfare of dogs is for the dogs. Slating breeders and the general public is unhelpful, but if the breeders who knowingly breed damaged dogs should be held accountable. The saying about the minority spoil it for the majority is what is happening within dog breeding. The costs of rearing a litter and the cost passed on in the price of a puppy makes dog breeding a reliable tax free income for a lot of people. It is these people who are creating an additional burden for the health of dogs and their new owners. The KC generate huge sums of money from dogs and a high percentage of this goes towards unnecessary costs in maintaining an expensive building in an expensive area. My gripe is, and always has been, is that this wasted money, it should benefit dogs, dog breeders, research, rescue, health etc etc rather than energy suppliers, builders, rates, cleaners etc etc. Dogs are and will be their main concern, dogs are why they exist. KCs have the power to use their influence in a positive way. Do I hate the KC, do I blame the KC, sometimes yes because of their shallowness, but is the KC the best tool we have for the benefit of dogs, yes it could and should be, but until they hear and understand the reason JH puts herself in the firing line because of her legitimate concerns I despair for dogs and their future.
DeleteGeorgina have you ever been to a dog show? it does not sound like it. As for the work the KC does I think you should read its annual report, then you might be a little better informed and not so biased, but I suspect you a fixed mind set so education and facts wont make you see the full picture.
DeleteYes, I did indeed, and to my shame. Forty years of wasted time and effort, little breeding as I only did it when I wanted a youngers to bring on. I am fully aware of the politics, the inadequancies, the devotion, the pride but more the despair of good breeders who were thwarted at every turn. Breed clubs who were found to be wanting at the breed's most critical time, and the reason, politics and money. At the beginning it was all dog orientated, now it's all money generation. The KC's annual report is or is not good. How much of the income/expenditure is property related? The percentages would be interesting, because I very much doubt the property generates any income but goodness the outgoing of same must be huge. That money should be used for the benefit of dogs, they need premises obviously but in a more affordable area, even Stonleigh is a prestigeous address, but it is a good location. Please read my previous blogs where I clearly state that I think that the KCs internationally are the best bodies to oversee the dogworld for their benefit purely, but in their present form they are inadequate and Discover Dogs is a classic example of my concerns. A perfect tool to inform, educate etc breeders and new/old dog owners of the recent developments and future plans. Health and welfare issues and the research and development being undertaken. I am always prepared to be corrected but my passion for dogs is hurting because JH's disclosures which the KC should be addressing physically and with best intent on behalf of the dogs. Always biased in favour of dogs, so you are correct.
DeleteCould you explain why what Georgina says implies she has never been to a dog show ?
DeleteJust because someone is not of the same opinion about something as you does not mean they have not been to a dog show are uninformed or biased.
You can even not go to dog shows and be aloud to have an opinion. You don't have to jump off a cliff to no its not good for you.
Jane (in the UK)
ReplyDeleteGood, show breeders do not need to promote their breed. Demand is outstripping supply which is why Harrods are selling hem for several thousands of pounds. Demand is so high that more Frenchies were imported last year than all the other breeds put together. On top of that thousands of non-registered dogs are being bred sold and imported - many illegally.
What breeders do need to be doing is to point puppy buyers to the good breeders. In fact how do you know that the dogs on display on Sunday were not being shown as a “bad” example of what NOT to buy? Maybe, just maybe……..
Exactly, cashing in all the way to the bank on Joe Publics' ignorance/cognitive dissonance. Sod the state of the dog's health or trying to educate the public about the issues.
DeleteI wish we DID have a roll of good breeders like the Aussies are trying to do. I think we need a 'which dog breeder' guide (like washing machines, cars etc.) and get people to rate 'em. Honestly and fairly. Vets could participate too. In fact, what do vets DO when they know that a breeder is breeding crap dogs? Do they have any sort of professional platform to draw awareness of the public? Dr Fraser Hale has been the bravest so far, speaking up about the state of these dogs.
Exactly, your happy to travel miles to get a crap piece of card (card, silver or ribbons, that's really just pedantics to the point I was making) but to promote your breed and the efforts you are doing to improve its health at Discover Dogs, show breeders can't be bothered.
ReplyDeleteJane who has been enlightened from the UK.
Sorry but I don't even have this breed,I have a rare breed, so itit's not a you can't be bothered it's a they. Just helping you understand that most of us do dog showing for the social side not the the crappy card side.
DeleteGood show breeders need to promote good breeding.
ReplyDeleteI thought Discover Dogs was about educating the public to buy from good breeders, so I would think that good show breeders would wish to be there to promote good breeders.and to show what a good breeder can produce compared with the dogs that appeared on the stall, as you seem to imply that they might of been their to show bad breeding.
I never said any thing about the breed not having a demand but about good show breeders promoting the efforts they are doing to breed heathier dogs. You seem to of missed the point I made and that is really arrogant to assume a position that if you are in your eyes a good show breeder you don't need to promote yourself, what do you think showing is ?
Jane in the UK
Bearing in mind that the lovely natured FB dogs that were apparently below standard as stated by Carol were probably stock discarded by their breeders for that very fact, they couldn't make money from them so don't want them. A lucky escape for the dog because the people who now own them love them, warts and all. The KC is found wanting in so many areas of the dog world, the major shameful fact is that they clearly do not visit the show rings of the high profile breeds, mainly braccys, and see and hear for themselves the distress of the dogs who, because they are made to walk a few yards around the ring, can barely
ReplyDeletebreathe. They don't have to take anybody's word for it, they can visit their own licensed shows, and they should if they really are loyal to the welfare of dogs. They can observe whether the breeders are complying to the KC's own rules and regs, and if they visit they will see that there is a huge gap between what the standard states and the dogs before them show, and anyone with half a brain cell must appreciate that the KC is responsible for all and any damaged dogs that are deliberately bred in the pursuit of a) glory, b) self belief of the breeder that they are breeding healthy dogs when they truly know that they are not and c) money. Healthy, happy dogs is what the main aim should be from everyone involved in making money from dogs, whoever they are, whatever they do.
J Bragg,s article re registry's such as the KC explains how they have contributed to the abysmal genetic state of modern dogs
ReplyDeleteI do recognize that there is a problem with the breeds that have extreme brachycephalic faces, and there is desperately big need for improvement with their health (and of course all the other dog breeds that are suffering from some kind of problem), but for some of you, I think you’re just the mere image of the breeders you ever so hate. You’re so overly consumed with yourselves, and being very hasty. I will bring up a big example, look at the public school system in the U.S. The system is totally messed up.
ReplyDeleteEducation reform has been somewhat of a hot topic in the U.S. I see a striking similarity with education reform and the health campaign. I see politics. I see a bunch of it in the dog world as much as I see in ed reform. I see vast perspectives of this. I see individuals overly inclined with their emotions, I see people who are not willing to work together and compromise, and people who frankly care about their own agendas. But in the end, schools are going to continue to produce a very weak work force, just as much as the kennel club will continue to produce sick dogs.
As for the politics, think about it. Obviously you should know what republicans and democrats stand for. An industry is behind both these political parties, two things that these parties want. Your vote, and money. That’s all they really care about. In the dog world, obviously the show ring breeders are the repubs, and reformers are the dems (but not all are callous). I see the parties make it all about themselves. Both parties are so intoxicated with their emotions, and trying to be the hero - same in the dog world.
(of course the bad teachers and administrators are a big problem as well)
I also see in both issues, an apathetic (unaware) public. We should promote and persuade people to care.
Education will not improve if we don’t get rid of the politics, the immaturity, and sensationalism. Same for the Kennel Club, health won’t improve if we don’t work together.
I am not saying to shut up, and bow down to the “show ring breeders”. I’m saying take a different approach, and stop looking at this issue from one side. Stop being so negative, along with being a bad sport.
The show ring needs to change, and of course the breeders who are breeding these dogs need an intervention to moderate and make their dogs healthier.
And for the ones who are completely rude and snobbish towards each other, feel free to comment on my post, you would make great examples of what I’m trying to say.
Change can take a generation. Grass root education is required. Dog welfare (companion animal genetics and behaviour) in Biology is long overdue. I like the example of wildlife and environmental groups targeting children in schools regarding endangered species. The education has a chance to become cuturally embedded and the children acn then become ambassadors for change, empowered by knowledge. A new understanding then becomes the norm.
Deletehttp://news.mongabay.com/2013/0127-black-macaques-recovery.html
The problem in our society is that we have become so familiar with dogs and the established PEDIGREE breeding practices that we have willingly accepted this as the norm. Familiarity does not equal understanding. There is ample empirical evidence to suggest that we are actually driving the domestic dog breeds to a genetic dead end.
Usually, the government will regulate and intervene when things get out of hand. But that never addresses the root cause....
Until things improve, I will vote with my feet. I won't buy a pedigree dog.
I don't hate breeders though. I am frustrated at the lack of accountability and personal responsibility within the dog breeding world and the hostility directed at those who are wanting to drive change and improve the situation.
I'd like more imput from veterinary world please!
Just because there are two sides, doesn't mean the ideal must lie somewhere in the middle (the golden mean fallacy.)
DeleteYou could argue that the pedigree dog show people are one extreme, the animal rights people are another extreme, and the moderate middle are the reformers. The AR would see the reformers as the polar opposite to them, as would the show people. It's all a question of perspective.Which is why it's not necessarily a useful argument.
You'd need to pinpoint where in the 'middle' you want to stand, and for which issues.
Otherwise you end up with just a toothless, general injuction to 'be polite'. Politeness is one strategy, but not the only strategy, and it's so vague as to be easily twisted. Even having the discussion about stenotic nares is probably offensive to someone, no matter how civil or unemotional people are about them.
If someone's doing something wrong, it's not being negative/a bad sport to call them on it. It's being productive.
And sensationalism, provided it doesn't stray into falsehood, is a legitimate tool to get people interested in an issue, to catch them and educate them. Dickens was pure sensationalism, and his writing is still influencing how people think about social justice.
Plenty of people at the time wrote worthy pamphlets on workhouses, child abuse, poverty- what we remember is 'Please sir, I want some more'. The idea of it being an unforgivable sin for a starving child to want more food. That's the power of sensationalism.
Another problem in our society is some people are drawn to the unusual, rare, and unique. This has led to the development of breeds based upon genetic mutations (i.e. Rhodesian Ridgeback, Shar-Pei, Fainting Goats, etc) and the breeding of rare mutations like albinos, double merles, etc.
ReplyDeleteThe dogs photod at Discover Dogs are show dogs owned by a championship show judge who incidentally was the only judge to have his Best of Breed fail the vet check no wonder!!!
ReplyDeleteHi anon 20:52, wouldn't it be great to hear from the breeder of the dogs shown to hear their viewpoint. If what you say is true it underlines the totally lack of responsibility from the breeder and the KC. When closed nostrils are currently highlighted one would have thought that all of the braccy breeds on display would have had had open nostrils, even if they say had a droopy ear, or miscoloured or whatever harmless non standard attribute. When the public see what is before them, they will want a puppy that matches what they have seen at a KC licensed show or event aka DiscDogs. They will look for closed nostrils in their puppy because they will think that makes the dog typical of the breed and thus it goes on and on and on. Subconscious is a funny old thing, we don't realise what we see but when something is presented that is slightly different we are suspicious, so we go for the option that is "safe" because we saw it at a KC sponsored event. Aka if there is an opened nostril puppy in a litter we will think it is a "runt" because all of the other puppies have closed nostrils??????? KC breed standards are a form of brainwashing in a funny way, conforming with the herd makes us safe, veering away causes problems that the majority don't want to face???
DeleteTo be honest I did think french bulldogs and dogues where supposed to have nostrils like that , like a trait of the breed & didnt think of it affecting their breathing until it was pointed out on here.
Deletecan any one remember a documentary may years ago before PDE in which a bloke was trying to set up a new breed that wood make a good family pet and be free from exaggeration . He went round crufts and a bulldog owner was talking about them having good heads. but could not explain what was good about a head that caused whelping problems
ReplyDeleteMy choices for bringing about change at the rate its needed would be to
ReplyDeletea) Change the K.Cs constitution to allow for more balanced view points( ie: allow breeders to breed out side of the registries if they so wish, among other other changes)
or
b) Pass laws that dogs may not be discriminated against based on breed in any competition, or
c) start an alternative registry based on purpose alone.
The K.Cs policies have isolated them from mainstream "consumers" and polarized the dog world. This polarization and mutual animosity is causing all factions to attack each other rather than foster any sort of community, so badly needed. Instead, collectively, we erode the dog loving community and any chance of actualy learning from each other.
I suspect much of the big picture in dog world politics is demographics. Seems like the powers that be in the KC, AKC, etc. are mostly over 60, and recruitment to the show scene is doing poorly. Meanwhile the fashionable, monied set is buying trendy breeds, including the short-haired brachys and designer dogs, without much attention to pedigree (though the pedigree itself has some sort of snob appeal). There's a more Progressive set that favors mutts and adoption, and has appeal to both young and old. Then there are breed fanciers who just want a dog like the one they grew up with, and both actual working dog people (guess, more older than younger) and competitive dog sports people (more younger than older).
ReplyDeleteThese various groups listen to different music, so to speak, and if you want reform, I don't think you'll get it by playing the same tune to everyone. As an oldie, myself, I feel entitled to say that if you're looking for change, you're probably better off forgetting the oldies. We're hard to change, and not-much-listened to, and we'll be dying out over the next few decades anyway.
But I'm an "oldie" too, and I don't think we have decades, going by the changes I have witnessed in my own life time.
DeleteI have kept working breeds all my life and became active in this debate after seeing my breed go from the obvious choice for the job to no longer fit for function within 20 years.
The 'shape"of dog ownership has changed and there is no common,unbiased authority to advise on balanced breeding practices or owner expectation to guide us into a future.
While the dog owning public remains divided and on the attack, the only target is the dog owning public. Eroding what we love isn't getting us anywhere.
What is wrong with the culture that we do this?
I believe it is traced back to the K.Cs rulings on cross breeding . As a registry only, such rulings are outside their charter. They change the focus from breeding better dogs to closing lines. They cause "a registry only" to seek to influence whats outside.
Aussie.
Me too, I'll get in line! But seriously we are talking about the benefit of improving damaged stock, bred to be different, in some cases just bred to generate money, not for the love of the breed. The KCs should publicly be seen to publicise the benefits of dogs in our society, a society that is falling around our ears in essence. Dogs do so much to bring stablility, honesty, friendship into so many people's lives, regardless of whether they are pets or dogs on Government missions and everything in between. The fact that the whole World is becoming influenced by different cultures is beneficial to us all, it brings understanding and compassion in the main. What I fear though is that some of the cultures are strongly anti dog, fearful of them and fear spreads outwards. I was in Reigate recently staying with my cousin ,it is an affluent, well heeled part of the UK and multi cultural. I took my Team of Three, love me, love my dog attitude I'm afraid, anyway I was shocked by some of the reactions of the people in the street. The dogs were on leads, well behaved, tails wagging eager because we were heading off to the park and there were lots of people to meet and greet. The ridiculous behaviour of some of the adults was astonishing. Grabbing their children out of the way, glaring at me, muttering something abusive I am sure. If the dogs had been off lead slavering, growling beasts of huge stature I might have understood, but a Parson Russel - Jemima, a Working Cocker - Phoebe and a dotty old Dalmation - Totty hardly make for a terrifying sight - perhaps it was just me dressed in mud spattered country casuals that they were afraid of!!!! Would you believe it but we were picked up in the park by a policeman who came over to talk to us because he had seen what had happened and was not amused by the reactions. He told me has two GSDs and because he too experienced some of the silliness he walks them early in the day to avoid any problems - and he's a policeman! Anyway we walked the dogs up on Reigate Hill, where there are miles of free galloping and lots of normal people who love their dogs. But isn't it a nonsense, we live in a free world and yet we are becoming increasingly influenced by outside cultures who want to instil their beliefs on others and are outwardly hostile if those "others" ignore them. Dogs are wonderful, wonderful creatures, the blind child shown recently on television who has taken a guide dog after much persuasion because a guide dog would free up the child so much and give him the independence that he craved, his family were terrified of dogs because in their culture they are "unclean", they soon changed their mind when they saw the benefit for the child and the loyalty of the dog. The dog was even allowed in his own special bed in a part of the mosque, he was a lovely ambassador, quiet, dignified, noble a delightful dog.
DeleteOne day the KCs will awaken from their slumbers, they will realise that if they don't act constructively and be as loyal to the dog as the dog is to them they too will just fade from view. They are not a legal body, they survive on the goodwill of dog breeders who want to use them as a reliable authority in dogs, the breeders will drift soon and save huge sums of money currently paid to the KCs. Having a KC registered dog will become worthless unless they start to do a great deal more so that the General Public can see and hear the benefits of owning such a dog that there truly is monitoring of breeders, a scale, a yardstick - whatever.
As perhaps the oldest, and most universal body for dog breeders, the K.Cs are, unfortunately, seen as " The reliable authority on dogs" by many.
DeleteIn my opinion,the rules against cross breeding create a paradox in their charter.
Knowledge and monitoring of practices can be given back to the communities who love dogs and not be held to ransom by a group whos charter pushes for ownership, yet can't meet the needs of its environment.
Legislation can only favor commercial breeders and serves to remove dogs from the communities that gave rise to them.
Dogs MUST be a whole community affair. The K.Cs rulings divorce dogs from their communities and can only continue to do so.
The ideal is supposed to be betterment of the breeds, yet they have closed their books on any research and development that comes from out side of known, closed lines.
As far as ethics, they teach that the 1st rule to become an"ethical" breeder is start with a listed pedigree and closed lines. So membership in a K.C itself is the most important step to being respected as a breeder, and none working outside of that membership deserve respect or have any entitlement.
This does nothing to improve the quality or knowledge of membership, or non members.Instead it encourages enrollment by those seeking to legitimize their breeding interest, whatever that might be.
The rules have corrupted the charter.
Pedigree dogs are denied comparison with any but their own,since competition is for the most part closed to dogs not registered with the K.Cs. With the short life span, how are new breeders ( or old! ) to say they have improved on qualities when they they can only be held up to their own generational peers?
I believe the removal of a few key rules in the K.Cs constitution would be enough to turn things around for the K.Cs AND for the communities they live in with out need for the increasing legislation we are all using to try to deal with the problems.
Legislation that only serves to take dogs further from the communities that gave rise top them.
Incidentaly, those rules give only one possible outcome for the K.Cs and that is their demise. Eliminating those rules forces change on no one, but does change the culture as its defined by their constitution.
There are rules for writing a successful constitution that were deliberately ignored when the K.Cs were formed. ie; Do not rule out side of your charter. The reason is that your constitution will no longer form a self sufficient population. It will have effect on, and be affected by, outside influences.Usualy their environment. It will change the directive influence.
As has happened.
The repercussions I feel are not fully understood. They are subtle.From my own observations on looking into this, there is a huge impact on welfare and how we view dogs in the community. That surely is cause for public support to force change to the K.Cs rules not just for pedigree dogs, but for a future for dogs of any stripe.
Aussie
the kennel club does register out crossed dogs where breed clubs have schemes to increase genetic diversity
DeleteYes, But in Auss at least, those dogs used may only come from ...closed lines.
DeleteBreeders need the freedom to experiment with the unknown if they are to learn anything new, or even develop anything new.
New traits, abilities, skills, are unlikely to be found in the old and tired lines.Likewise with the breeders using them.
Research and development is not realy that at all if it can only be carried out when results are pre-determined by a panel.
The communities these dogs are destined to live in have no say in their development.
Removal of those rules gives dogs back to the community.
If breeders have the freedom to carry on as they always have,BUT others are free to cater to the demands of their environment, we free breeders from the need to constantly defend themselves AGAINST their environment.
There is no more divorce. We are all free to concentrate on what is best for dogs, and what society wants from them. Breeders are no longer an isolated enclave. We can promote a dog appreciative society, concerned with welfare.
As it stands, registered breeders hold themselves apart from the community and we get now where.
Aussie
I have been looking at the problems in dog breeding for years. I believe that we must focus, not on the problems within the dogs, but on the problems with dog breederes, the dog buying public, and the dog show subculture.
ReplyDeleteAfter that, the problems with the dogs themselves will just be a piece of cake.
If it wasn't so sad, I would laugh at myself. It seems that I spent years trying to defend the innocent (ignorant) public from the crazy dog breeders who produce puppies who will grow up to be unhealth dogs. Now, I am not sure that most of the public cares at all - at least nont until they get a big vet bill....
...I guess it might be a bit like high heeled shoes.
ReplyDeleteDoctors tell women that high heeled shoes are not good for their feet or legs, and that they can cause injury to the ankles if one twists. Yet, women continue to wear high heeled shoes.
With some breeds, like the peke, people compare their breeding to foot-binding (look it up, it cripples women).
Sadly, dogs are not shoes. Shoes can not suffer. Dogs do.
What dog breeders remind me of is a trip I took ages ago to Latin America.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't understand the sense of time there. (This was right after digital watches had come out, but had not yet reached where I went).
I had a regular wind up watch (they never needed batteries or recharging, but you had to remember to wind them once a day, or the watch would stop and then you would have to re-set the time before winding it up).
People were always asking me what time it was. Most of these people were wearing watches. I would have normally guessed that if a person who was wearing a watch asked the time, it must be because he needed to re-set the time on his watch.
But these people didn't stop and re-set their watch. So maybe their watch was broken? But who would wear a broken watch? What good would it be? So I looked at some of these people's watches. Their watches were often working but weren't set to the right time.
Finally one local man (I'll call him "Red") explained it to me, the way he saw it.
He said the people there had seen American movies and saw that Americans wore watches, so they bought watches too. But they didn't live in a time based culture, so there was no reason to set the watches. (People there had jobs like "Come over on Mondays and cut the grass.").
'Red' also told me how he had reasoned the people in his (mostly class-less culture) into English classes.
He placed people who wore a watch, but never wound it so the hands would move, on the bottom class, because he felt they did not understand that a watch was not just decoration but had a use.
He placed people who wound the watch before wearing it in the middle class, because they understood the the watches's hands should move.
He placed people, like himself, in the upper class, because their watch told the correct time. He had me check his watch to make sure the time was correct. He said he wound his watch every morning so that the time stayed correct, and he clearly looked down on people whose watch wasn't set to the correct time.
Of course, 'Red' could not tell time. And he didn't know how to set the time on his watch (they were really easy to set, you just turned a knob until the hands got to where you wanted them).
I am not sure where people who could tell time and set watches fit on 'Red's' class list - I think he just called all of us "Americans".
'Red's' words were very helpful to me. It helped me understand. But my languages skills were far too few to allow me to explain to a woman who wanted to know why "Americans" like watches hands too move, what was the point? the hands move so slow what difference did it make?
It would have been like trying to explain the difference betweeen green and yellow to a man who was born blind. It is nice, flattering, when someone tries to adopt your culture and customs, but I felt with the men who asked "Why would anyone care what time was? because there is only morning, and late day, or tomarrow."
People breed dogs. Sometimes they even spew words about "fit for function". But if your dogs don't actually do the work they were bred to do, then it is like wearing a watch that isn't ever set to the right time.
If it wasn't so sad, I would laugh.
See, it isn't good enough for a person here or there to understand what dog breeding is really about. Everyone who breeds dogs must understand, or at least, they must have some way to be lead to choose the right pairings for their dogs.
ReplyDeleteIt is as useless as nipples on a bull to ask people to imagine which of their dogs would be best at herding sheep, IF they had sheep, or to IMAGINE which of their hounds would be the best tracker IF they actually ran their dogs in a pack, or to imagine which of their terriers would be best on a fox IF they used their dogs on foxes...
People MUST enter dogs in USEFUL events, if dog breeds are to be anything but unhealthy props for clownish owners who want to look silly and cruel.
By "useful", what do I mean?
ReplyDeleteMany people are injured in war, car wreaks, falls, old age, or they are born handicapped. Dogs are naturally the helper of people.
Dogs can lead the blind and those with fuzzy vision. Dogs can pull carts/wheelchairs. Dogs can lead people home who would be lost because of a stoke they are recovering from.
Dogs can be the ears, eyes, hands, legs, memory, and comfort for people whose lives they can enrich. And dogs will happily help their person all day, every day. Dogs are usually happier being out with their person, instead of waiting at home.
Why don't we just let dogs help us? And make these abilities the basis of dog shows. Because dogs need to be trained, and we need to have them with us.
And if helping the handicapped isn't your thing, how about protecting your city?
Dogs are very suited as sniffers. Dogs can easily be trained to sniff for bombs, guns, ammo, cancer, insect infestation, drugs, spoiled food, sick cattle - you name it, and dogs can be trained to alert people to it. These type of sniffing contest would be easy to get started. What are we waiting for?
And if longer nosed pekes and longer nosed bulldogs are better at this game, then people will breed to win - they will breed for healthier dogs, for dogs fit at this function.
And then there is also tracking skills. It is more physical, but it can be a sport in itself.
Today's dog shows are boring, useless, ruining several breeds, and most of all, WE AND ALL THE DOGS ARE MISSING OUT ON THE UNIQUE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN OUR SPECIES.
And handicapped people and the people who protect us are missing out on the help and usefulness that wellbred well trained dogs could be giving us.
So many good, thought provoking ideas. The most relevant point being that perhaps people need to be physco analysed before they can breed dogs. I think that there are lots of issues surrounding dogs where people are concerned. Take out of the equation the greedy, nasty selfish people who just want a dog to make money from, they are what they are. The genuine people who want a dog to show and possibly start their own bloodline are in the main good people and want to do the best by their dogs and their progeny. It is the people who have producedf the like we see above, people who continue to breed "sick" dogs, a sort of, and excuse my lack of spelling, "munchousen syndrome", they know they are doing it, want to do it, enjoy the attention a sick dog brings etc etc. It wouldn't be possible to weed these people out so perhaps the answer is that dogs just become dogs, this type, that type, just as loveable, just as loyal but just dogs and not breeds. KCs disbanded and dogs move forward amongst people who love them for just that and not because they generate kudos and wealth. I'm not blinded by the belief that crossbreeds are healthier or any of the other possible problems associated thereto. But one good outcome if this was undertaken would be that there would be a lot less misery and painful conditions for dogs to endure.
ReplyDeleteI visited the French Bulldog Site. It is very good, very informative and the advice appears to be sensible and honest. Perhaps the KC could adopt some of the ideas therein, and to be fair to them, their input on the site is also worthwhile for new owners or people browsing to gather info before buying a FB. I was, in truth, quite impressed by what I read. So come on KCs step up, open your ears and eyes and march forward in a positive way for the benefit of the dogs from whom you earn a very healthy living indeed.
ReplyDeleteSince French Bulldogs were developed by selecting for two genetic mutations (two forms of dwarfism) why is it surprising to anyone that the breed has health issues?
ReplyDeleteDaschunds and shih tzu's are also selected for two forms of dwarfism. Not problem free, but generally pretty healthy, and both breeds (unlike Frenchies) have longer lifespans than your average large breed dog.
DeleteMany (most?) breeds were developed by selecting for mutations. Double dwarfism is also found in Daschunds and shih tzus .. . both of which have some health problems, but nonetheless enjoy longer life expectancies than the average large dog, and much longer life expectancies than giant dogs.
Deletep.s. I thought posted this, but it didn't show. Not sure what happened.
Most toy breeds were developed by selectively breeding dwarfs.
DeleteAll flat faced breeds were developed by selectively breeding one form of dwarfism.
Other breeds with unique appearances were also developed by selectively breeding for mutations, for example shar pei and ridgeback.
Do you really think life expectancies tell the whole story about the quality of life for those living with genetic mutations?
I believe people concerned with where dogs are heading have an opening to bring change.
ReplyDeleteThe rules in the K.Cs charter against breeding anything ineligible for registration mean that the K.Cs have ruled against anything outside of their charter.
That is their environment.
The environment for dogs are the communities that gave rise to them.There are no dogs with out a community that values and understands them.
You can see the more obvious effects in that the K.Cs do not involve their broader communities to take part in what they do ( breed, show, demonstrate abilities etc ) Nor will they allow any who choose to work outside of their charter to have any credibility, apart from some working dog registries who are tolerated.
Membership is discouraged from involvement in community outside of the K.Cs.
Of course the communities attitude to dogs is changing. They are told they have no business meddling in what they don't understand. Any who feel they DO understand are allowed no credibility unless they sign up for membership and all that entails under the K.Cs constitution.
So we get a drift of what expertise remains to a K.C stance.
I believe as long as those rules remain a part of the K.Cs charter, there is no other outcome than that the K.Cs attack their environment, the communities, in an effort to define what they do in opposition.
Consider The K.Cs a population. Those rules introduce an antagonist to the population that must be eliminated. But the antagonist is their environment and the 2 CAN'T be separated. So we have an endless downward spiral.
The only thing that automaticly defines a K.C breeder against another is a pedigree,and closed lines.Thus the pedigree is of more value than the dog it represents
This means that they are changing the environment, their communities. Taking dogs from their 'Natural environment' to place them in K.Cs preserve.Closing lines.
This affects us all and surely gives grounds to fight those rulings in court of law?
eg: Regarding working dog registries who still work with open stud books.-The K.Cs stance reduces the gene pool from which those registries are able to source outside stock.So they still work with ever decreasing lines.
This is what I see happening in Australia. The effects of rulings outside the charter may vary in other cultures, but the end result, according to science based arguments, is almost like a self fulfilling prophesy. No breeding outside of The K.Cs charter.
The only other opening we are leaving for breeders is a commercial one, since they are able to adapt to any restrictions placed on the breeding of dogs, and still meet the needs of the environment.
The communities need to be involved in the process to understand it, appreciate it, and nurture it
Aussie
Just checking that you have the permission of the owners of the dogs photographed to use the pictures, Jemima? Or are you breaking the rules of attendance? If so it puts you in an untenable position regarding complaining when other people break rules.
ReplyDeleteI think exposing dogs being shown under the umbrella of the KC Discover Dog Event that look like the above and with the KC recently removing them from the High Profile Breed list, that makes Jemima's position very much defensible.
DeleteSo Mary, its okay to break moral the rules and breed dogs born into misery from your desire for them to look a certain way but its not okay if someone breaks the rules to expose this cruelty.
ReplyDeleteWith the best will in the world even if they had it the KC is never going sort this out . Just the turmoil over the minor /superficial /window dressing changes they have attempted to enact shows that the vested intrusts are to entrenched to move voluntarily and will block /undermine these changes. Monetary considerations may be a motivator for some but other powerful motivators are at work.
ReplyDeleteThe vested interests( breeders, club officials, judges ) are too emotionally ,psychologically invested in there positions. They have invested time and energy into their dogs and is part of how they see themselves and there place in the world. People struggle to accept change if it undermines there identity and any sense of self .It is not therefor surprising when looked at from a psychological perspective that when some one comes along and points out the king has no clothes they become agitated wanting to burn Jemimar and other heretics at the stake . logic and evidence will not move many of them. The evidence of this entrenched position is painfully evident in the discussions in blogs
this. Try to persuade a religious fundamentalist that the earth is more than 6000 years old and see how far you get
.The only way forward is to isolate these people and offer the dog buying public an alternative, To make the ownership/ breeding of such defective dogs like the FBD a social stigma and deflect people from them before they have any emotional/ financial investment in them.
The $6m question is how?
An alternative registry, with groupings based not on breed, but purpose and willing to involve the community in dog related activities to foster the various interests and show suitability.
DeleteAussie
What is a French Bulldog?
ReplyDeleteI know what a "bulldog" is, it is a dog that is bred to bait bulls - an illegal and uncommon sport for many decades now. And I know where France is, and I assume bull-baiting is illegal and uncommon there too.
So what is a "French Bulldog"? I'm guessing it is meant to be a "Dwarf French Bulldog" or a "Double Dwarf French Bulldog". Or, since the dwarfism breeds true, maybe a "Double Dominant Double Dwarf Bulldog".
But what is the profession of the breed? Was it always an exibit breed, bred for shows? Was it a fashion breed? A family pet breed? How does a club preserve the fitness of function for a breed with no visable function?
Scotty, over on Retrieverman's blog mentioned that the Lundehund is being allowed one outcross in its home country, because they want to preserve the breed. But how many people use Lundehunds to climb cliffs after Puffin birds?
If a breed is no longer used for its original function, and no modern use has been found for the breed, them what is being preserved? The look of the breed? That's like making antique cars, but not making them with an engine - preserving the look but ignoreing the function.
If the bulldog breeds had a function, almost any function, they wouldn't have these problems. They need to heel, sit-stay, fetch dumbells, or track people running through the woods. They need to have some selection outside of a show.
All dog breeding needs to be based on some function, or we have show breeds that wobble, gasp, break down, have skin problems, die young, have mental/emotional problems, or who can't digest normal food well.
French Bulldogs were not bred for hunting , tracking guarding etc. They were bred solely as a companion dog, hence their delightful nature.
DeleteHi Alistair Hunter,
ReplyDeleteYou are correct. The Self Appointed Old Guards of Dogdom (some might say "dogdumb") are not looking to change, and many of them might not be able to learn modern tricks. (The people, not their dogs).
IMO, the easiest way would be to form a new dog club based on event titles which dogs could earn.
A Duck Retriever is a dog which retrieves shot ducks (not just a dog who had ancestors who might have fetched a dead duck or two). A Fox Terrier is a dog which goes into the earth and usefully confronts foxes.
Pet dogs have their place too - they should show that they: allow themselves to be handled for grooming and petting, walk well on a leash in a city, run loose and come back when called from a field, and play nicely in a dog park. Any other tricks are frosting on the cake.
People need to set up such a club ( any kc COULD set up event based breeds too). It wouldn't be much work: putting workable ideas into words, legal paperwork to get everything in order, and popularizing the events.
It would be nice to find people who love dogs and who plan to stay with the club for at least 20 years, or to make it a lifelong love.
(I have given up breeding, and am undergoing changes in my life - moving etc). No reason it would be any more work than setting up any other type of club. But, right now, I wouldn't be able to give it the time it would need. It would need married women with a working husband and lots of free time, retired people, or paid employees for the club.
REMEMBER: focus on the people, not the dogs. Redoing the dogs is a simple mental exersize, changing people is hard work.
People will be happier if you leave the unchangable with their breed based KCs, and form your own function based KCs. Some people will never change, but their ways will fade away as new generations take their place.
ReplyDeleteIt will need a core group of people to start the change (and money), if no established KC is going to pick up the ball and put it into play.
Anyone else want to add their wishes/ideas for a new club, or improvements for an existing club?
I'd be willing to get involved with a club breeding pet dogs fit for purpose. Screening for SA is also important. So many dogs are stressed at being left alone.
DeleteNot one person has actually noticed that the Frenchies pictured are not struggling for breath or even panting unlike some other breeds seen at DD. It was quite hot at DD and the French Bulldog booth was usually 6 deep with people all around.
ReplyDeleteNOTE not one Frenchie is breathing through its mouth or showing any signs of labored breathing . The French Bulldog Clubs are trying to educate the GP and have a comprehensive heath scheme in place for the last 3 years. It will take some years to make improvements that the genuine breeder want. The problem is not with club members/breeders its with GREEDERS those who exploit the popularity of the breed just to make money to buy a new car or a flash holiday, with no care for the health or future of the breed.
I think what you done there is known as deflection. I sure there are breeds in even a worse state than the French Bulldog that is not the debate here.
DeleteYou made a lovely point though that there where dogs at Discover Dogs on stalls showing disress by breathing through their mouths or panting just sat still right under the nose of the KC.
Could you tell us the breeds you saw breathing through their mouths and panting just sat still ?
To those who think breeders of French Bulldogs do not care.......are any of you aware that the French Bulldogs are taking part in research into Brachycephalic Obstuctive Airway Syndrome with a team at Cambridge Vet. University . http://www.frenchbulldogclubofengland.org.uk/uploads/1/5/9/2/15927418/boasposter.pdf
ReplyDeleteThe French Bulldog Show Breeder created the problems in this breed, so it would be nice to see them doing something about it.
DeleteI believe this is a volountary scheme and like other recommendations it will be interesting how many breeders of these dogs take part. In my experience of Show breeders they are pretty big on rhetoric but can be found lacking when it actually comes to the doing part.
The sad thing about the study as it seems focussed on managing the problems that occur from being brachycephalic when vets should be telling you to stop breeding dogs to be brachycephalic. It serves no purpose other than to predispose the dog to serious health issues.
How about that, breeding French Bulldogs that are not brachycephalic ? A good breeder with sound genetic understanding could do that in a couple generations, unless you feel that being brachycephalic is what defines them ?
"The long-term aim of this study is to improve the health and welfare of brachycephalic breeds by reducing the incidence of severe BOAS and give them a better quality of life."
DeleteThe language here is interesting. It's not about eliminating BAOS. It's not even about reducing the incidence of BOAS in generall. It's specifically about reducing the incidence of severe BAOS. Sounds like a tacit acknowledgement that Frenchies will have BOAS.
Anons 01:22 and 01:37. I personally looked at the FB site and was impressed at the information displayed therein and if I was looking for a FB I would feel that the Club members love the breed and are concerned and willing to put right health issues. In the main. The KC's input seems positive too. But words are easy, action is not, as many others have pointed out, it's the owners aka people who are difficult to change mindsets. Greeders is a brilliant description for people who buy a popular breed just for money accumulation. I see "fit for purpose" as a dog who can breathe easily, have uninterrupted site, move easily, have good digestion, healthy skin. I don't see FFP as breed type as such, tho' expecting an FB to run like a Greyhound, or scent for miles like a Basset would be ludicrous. Toy/companion type dogs don't have to be disabled to be companions, as they currently appear to be, it is just as distressing as seeing the GSDs who are a running breed crippled by the ridiculous desires of the people who breed them on.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the comment about the dogs pictured not struggling for breath, it takes a millisecond to take a photograph, so an invalid comment, two of the photographs have hands near the dog's mouths and three out of three definitely show closed nostrils, which must compromise their air intake, it just must. Pinch your nostrils and breathe through your mouth for 5 mins. I did, it was horrible. My mouth dried out, my throat got sore because of the dry air intake, really quite unpleasant. Try it, tell me how you get on. The nostrils of the dogs above seem to be dry too which could lead to cracking and soreness, another unnecessary condition to live with. I looked again at the Pets4sale site, visit it, FB's hundreds of adverts, claiming the unusual colours are best tho' the FB page decries them and warns people away from them, it is how to stop these puppies being bred and the public purchasing them is the problem. Perhaps the FB club should contact P4H's directly and express their genuine concerns for the puppies bred???? I don't doubt for one minute that the natures of this breed/type of dog is endearing, they look charming, but one thing did bother me on one of the youtube's of the breed was the puppy rolling around on the floor trying to get on to her feet, she couldn't, like a sheep, physically impossible. Is this a problem with them too????
Dog World's take on the Building Better Brachycephalics conference. http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/104537 -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link and I just read the article. Bill Lambert just cracks me me up when he says, "was surprised at the inclusion of the Cavalier and Stafford among brachycephalic breeds."
DeleteHe also thinks that dog folks and the KC's definition of brachycephalic may not concur with the researchers. So the KC cannot even agree what is actually brachycephalic.
I breed Cavaliers and can vouch that they are brachycephalic and I'm sure all vets will agree on that with me. I will add I breed for longer noses and also started cross breeding 5 years ago in an attempt to improve the health of this breed.
KC you are not fit for function if you think that Cavaliers are not brachycephalic.
It was really heartening to read that the veterinary profession are putting pressure on the KC and breeders about breeding dogs to be brachcephalic. Its sad though that the KC still wants more research before being seen to change breed standards. What more do they need ?, just open your eyes KC. We all make mistakes in life KC but what defines us is what we do when we realise our mistakes. Come on KC lets see evolution not devolution.
I think that the brachycephalic problem with the CKCS is compounded by the "accordion effect", meaning that not only were the breed's ancestors' muzzles "downsized" from the wolf model to produce the King Charles spaniel (English toy spaniel), but then that compressed KCS muzzle was elongated to produce the CKCS. So we not only have the initial jumbling of mouth and nasal contents produced by the downsizing, but we have that followed by the haphazard re-elongation of those same contents.
DeleteThis has not only produced the garden varieties of brachycephalic issues, such as elongated and fleshy soft palate (the CKCS' biggest BAOS problem), but also possibly PSOM (glue ear).
If you don't think BAOS is a problem for the CKCS, consider this factoid: In a 2010 report of BAOS surgery on 155 Australian dogs, the cavalier was the most common breed (29 dogs, 18.7%). All of those cavaliers had an elongated soft palate. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
Can any one think of a land race or wild dog that is a brachycephalic . I am struggling. Not sure why they need a conference. isn't the answer not to bread them.
ReplyDeleteWhy breed deliberate dogs with defects which this is.
answers please . ps it looks cute is not a valid answer
I think the Bush Dog is brachycephalic ... LINK TO PICTUER OF SKULL
Deletehttps://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bush+dog+skull&rlz=1C1CHFX_en-GBGB452GB453&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4gKRUo6tJIGThQenloDICw&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=652#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=rAgnDAR2LiCgUM%3A%3BiffV9EDSn-WCNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.takingthelead.co.uk%252Fgallery%252Falbums%252Fuploads%252FAnatomy%252Fnormal_bush-dog-skull-lg.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.takingthelead.co.uk%252Fgallery%252Fdisplayimage.php%253Falbum%253D4%2526pos%253D14%3B399%3B251
List of brachycephalic dog breeds
DeleteAffenpinscher
American Bulldog
American Cocker Spaniel
American Pit Bull Terrier
American Staffordshire Terrier
Boston Terrier
Boxer
Brussels Griffon
Bulldog
Bullmastiff
Cane Corso
King Charles Spaniel
Chihuahua (apple-headed)
Chow Chow
Dogo Argentino
Dogue de Bordeaux
French Bulldog
Japanese Chin
Lhasa Apso
Neapolitan Mastiff
Newfoundland
Pekingese
Presa Canario
Pug
Shar-Pei
Shih Tzu
Tibetan Spaniel
Looking the length of the cranium seems longer enough than the width of the cranium, so I don't think this wild canid is brachycephalic. Found this link about them http://www.arkive.org/bush-dog/speothos-venaticus/#image-G131821.html. The head is very close to the badger and in some they look almost fox like.
DeleteLast night, while flipping through the channels, I came across a program which had a woman with a French Bulldog standing on her lap/legs. She had a cell phone on, and I guess she and the dog were being seen while she talked to whoever was on the other end of the phone.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first got to that channel, the actress said something about the dog sneezing on the cellphone screen. She seemed to find that cute.
But, having been reading about French Bulldogs on PDE, I focused on the French Bulldog's nares/nostrils. Big enough and OPEN. Unfortunately, I focused so much on its nostrils, that I can't commment on any nose-roll or other possible problems, but the nostrils looked good.
It wasn't a Boston Terrier because it was mostly white with some color around the ear or head. I didn't see the tail area, as I was so over-focused on watching the nostrils.
It would please me if ONLY dogs with open nostrils won anything in dog shows. What is the chance of that?
Surgically opened nostrils is another problem - what happens when the public buys a Frenchie and can't afford or don't bother to get the dog medical attention?
Suffering little doggies.
What would a French Bulldog look like if it wasn't brachycephalic?
ReplyDeleteWould Frenchie lovers still love Frenchie puppies if some were born with a mutation back to the 'wild' type? Or would the puppies be trash canned like so many ridgeless ridgebacks?
It could be possible to get a non-brachycephalic puppy - many mutations are where a small piece of DNA gets twisted backwards, or one amino acid gets in wrong, so mutations back to the wild type COULD happen. The breeder would probably assume the puppy had a fence jumping sire.
I think that a non-brachycephalic Frenchie would be just as cute.
I have been cross breeding brachycephalic dogs and it seems evolution is still very much at work because if the bitch is the brachyphalic dog in the mating and she has sperm from a non brachycephalic dog, the offspring in our breeding all have a longer nose than the mum, most are non brachyphalic with some mildly brachphalic. I believe this quickly reverts away from being brachycehalic because it is a defect and when the egg is allowing sperm into fertilise the egg, if the chioce is varied the egg will invariable go for the sperm without defects.That is why I think if you want to keep defects in a breed as the KC and showing fraternity wish, you have to cut down choice and this has been done by inbreeding because if you give the egg lots of choice it will invariable chose sperm with the least defects, so pure breeding is about cutting down choice and only presenting the egg with sperm with the defects you desire. We now now from research that the sperm entering the egg is not a violent act but is the egg opening the wall to sperm it choices to let in.That is basically pure breeding very simplified.
DeleteBreeding defects is harder than you think and trying to keep those defects actually means the defects will get more pronouced each generation because you only give selection to the egg for that defect,so it condenses. Hence what we see with brachycephalic breeds.
I believe that a lot of problems in pure breeds can be helped in just a few generations with allowing more natural selection at fertilisation. You will get variation of look but believe me if you cross dogs of similar size and temperament you are going to get offspring with a similar size and temperament. Its actually easier to breed healthier dogs than defective ones if people are willing to give it a go but they won't look like book ends.
No because even dogs with longish noses like cavalier king charles and rottweilers are still brachycephalic.
DeleteThough extremely flat faces do have to be bred for otherwise they do revert back to a longer type
brachycephalic is not either / or, it's a matter of degrees. The problems seem to set in with extreme brachycephaly. Rottis may have a cephalic index above 80, but generally they don't have trouble breathing. I don't know what the typical cephalic index for a show pug is, but I'd guess it's over 100. You can't judge the degree of brachycephaly from a front view photograph (all the photos above), you need a profile.
DeleteFrom memory, I've seen Frenchies that were not entirely flat faced, and I would not be surprised if quite a few of them could breathe naturally with no problems. Hope the above makes sense.
Anonymous21 November 2013 11:43
Deletethat sounds like a load of rubbish , i doubt the egg has any concious ability to choose sperm & how would it know what DNA was being carried?
If traits like brachycephaly are influenced by a few genes that means the dog has less chance of inheriting the full set to make it extreme unless the population is inbred enough for most dogs to carry all the same genes.
if their is variety in the population there is less chance for a dog to inherit all the exact genes it requires for a trait ( I believe I read albino requires 3 or 4 genes ? )
Anonymous 11.43 please take a look at the article at this link http://www.pawpeds.com/pawacademy/general/naturalprotection/
DeleteYou don't need a concious ability for selection to happen.
Nina, I meant the link for you not myself,Anonymous 11:43.
DeletePlease read this article at http://www.pawpeds.com/pawacademy/general/naturalprotection/
Hopefully it will shed some light on what I was trying to say.
Thanks Rod Russell,
ReplyDeleteI also looked at the Dogworld site. I liked what I read about how willing to change the brachycephalic people were - but I'll believe it when Puggles and peke-a-poos are openly mentioned and accepted (or some other crossbreds).
I have this mental picture of purebred dog breeders' reactions to the idea of crossbred/ hybrid dogs - and it's not pretty or friendly.
But if the various KCs are slow to jump into the only boat which isn't leaking (or in some countries "sinking" - read Terrierman's reports on who well the AKC ISN'T doing), then it would be POSSIBLE that a dog magazine MIGHT be able to start and become the future main dog club. But again, I don't hold out much hope.
People enmeshed in the current dog culture are like the fish who asks "What's water?" because he can't imagine a world without water, and so he never sees water, and like people once not noticing air, the fish can't have a concept of water.
What is needed in the dog culture is a total paradigm shift. It seems that in many situations, there comes a time to tear down the old building and start over with a totally new building. A time comes to stop patching up a favorite jacket, and buy a new one. A point is reached when instead of re-fixing a boat, you let it go, and get another. You tell your daugher that when her boyfriend is not good for her anymore, to drop him, and get a better one.
Related to the idea of not throwing good money after bad, at some point, people need to start over. If the kennel clubs (I am not pointing any fingers at any particular KC) can't or wont do what needs to be done, then it would perhaps be better to leave them sink and work out what is needed in a new dog club.
In other words: a reboot.
"brachycephalic is not either / or, it's a matter of degrees. The problems seem to set in with extreme brachycephaly"
ReplyDeleteOr perhaps, humans are unable to sense issues in dogs with brachycephalic until it is extreme. It's not like you can ask them how they are feeling nor is it unusual for dogs to hide health effects until they are extreme.
Genetically, dogs are brachycephalic or not.
ReplyDeleteLocalization of Canine Brachycephaly Using an Across Breed Mapping Approach
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009632
"Across breed mapping, followed by permutation testing and selection of the best locus (>100 more significant than the next highest), successfully identified genomic regions of association for brachycephaly. Fine mapping confirmed and narrowed the interval and two genes, THBS2 and SMOC-2, were implicated."
"Of the two genes associated with brachycephaly, the most promising candidate gene was THBS2. Thrombospondins (1 and 2) are expressed in bone and cartilage during development and in the adult skeleton."
more reading
ReplyDeleteVariation of BMP3 Contributes to Dog Breed Skull Diversity
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002849
So many doggone traits: mapping genetics of multiple phenotypes in the domestic dog
http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/R1/R52.full
If you read the Schoenebeck (BMP3) article carefully, it supports the concept that brachycephalic tendencies fall alont a gradient. Look, especially at figure 1, which puts breeds on a scale of increasing brachycephaly. Note also the range bars on different breeds. Some breeds, notably the Boston and Rotti, have a long downward extension on the range bars, suggesting the genes for longer muzzles are present in the breed population.
DeleteSure, they've identified some genes. But the way those genes are expressed is not a simple on/off switch that makes a dog brachy or not.
Dogs that do not have the key gene which turns on this mutation are not affected. Dogs that have the key gene are affected.
Delete*****This means there is an on/off switch for the mutation and dogs with the mutation can and do pass this mutation onto their offspring.******
How each dog is impacted by the mutation can vary; this is true even for simple genetic mutations like the autosomal recessive mutation CEA. Dogs can be CEA affected and never have diminished sight which is great for that individual dog but one would never want to breed this affected dog.
When it come to genetic mutations one must consider the impact on the entire gene pool not just the individual dog.
PipedreamFarm thanks for the links
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that an egg "chooses" DNA. But it is possible for there to be a difference in puppies depending on which parent has the mutations.
ReplyDeleteFor example: hinnies and mules both have one parent who is a horse, and the other parent who is a donkey. Yet hinnies and mules are very different.
A mule is a "freezer" like his father, a donkey. A hinny is a "runner" like his father, a stallion horse. So these mental, emotional, and behavior traits are inherited from the father.
(yeah, I know it is unfair, since the mother does the work of being p.g. and nursing. but most all female wild horses and female wild donkeys have babies, but only the best males get to breed, so it is in the best interest of the future for their species to take after the sire.).
Hinnie and mules have the same type of tail as their father too. Horses and hinnies have hair all over their tail. Donkies and mules have tails like a cow or a lion - short hair except long hairs and the tip.
But both hinnies and mules can bray like a donkey - but horses don't.
Mules have very long ears, but hinnies have inbetween ears - unless the horse parent is an Arabian horse with little ears - the little ears trump all others (are most dominant).
The offspring of a female tiger and a male lion is a "liger" and they are bigger than either parent. The offspring of a male tiger and a female lion is a "tion" and is not so large.
It is SAID TO BE common in many species (some say people as well) for many eggs to get fertilized, but for the weaker eggs to fail to implant, or for many eggs to implant at the same time, but for the womb to shut down many of the eggs.
The eggs doesn't think about this - it is automatic.
Please read the article at this link http://www.pawpeds.com/pawacademy/general/naturalprotection/
DeleteIt is believed by geneticists that the egg has the ability to select.
Fertility is one of the things thrown aside by the pure breeders in many species and they now reap what they have sown. Fertility is the foundation of breeding, forsake at your peril.
When I said selection away from defect I should of said selection away from exaggeration, you could argue in some cases they are the same thing.
DeleteI have taken a look a Hinnies and Mules and you can see genetic variation but no real exaggeration, so you reinforce the fact that the egg will select away from exaggeration even when matings are done between animals that would not normally mate with each other in the wild state.Genetic variation (not exaggeration) is what you will get when you give the egg more genetic choice, its a very good survival tactic.
The two examples you give though are crosses that in most cases produce sterile offspring due to being different species. Breeding with domestic dogs, although there are closed off gene pools (pure breeds) all domestic dogs are the same species I believe.
Is the French Bulldog really a dwarf? It doesn't have short legs like a basset hound.
ReplyDeleteThere are three genetic variations in the dog population that can be called 'dwarfism'. The Frenchie has two of them, but not the third . . . which the basset has.
DeleteSee
http://www.border-wars.com/2011/05/dwarf-dogs.html
I don't like throwing around the word dwarfism and mutation, with the inherent assumption that the mutation is deleterious. Many species have evolved in ways that make them smaller (the 'pygmy' species), sometimes through one or a couple of mutations. In some cases this has improved their survival rates in nature. With dogs, many of the small terriers have very long life expectancies, and relatively few health problems, apart from being feisty and accident prone ;-)
"I don't like throwing around the word dwarfism and mutation, with the inherent assumption that the mutation is deleterious."
DeleteIn the absence of the mutation deleterious health effects from the mutation are not possible in an individual dog or any of its offspring.
I saw what looked to be a French Bulldog in a vacuum commercial, and a Frenchie in a Lexus car commercial. Why so many Frenchies in ads?
ReplyDeleteI see it all the time as well. English bulldogs and pugs too. Brachycephalic breeds seem to be VERY popular in advertising and as motifs on decorations (saw lots just on a trip through town). Had a happy surprise the other day though, when I saw a greyhound lamp (they had a bulldog one too...) and a pillow with the UK flag and a bloodhound puppy of all things, on the flag.
DeleteAnd the frenchie in particular just boomsploded in popularity in 2007. I don't know about the US and UK, but in Sweden, their registration numbers basically doubled year after year from 2007 on. 2005 and earlier, hardly anyone knew what they were and they were just an ugly little weird-looking dog.
Too bad for the frenchie, that changed.
So I've read on Yahoo that the cava-poo-chon is all over the internet now. And I've seen 3 goldendoodles today - 2 different owners.
ReplyDeleteWhat would be the most popular lover for a Frenchie?
People like poodle mixes because they don't usually shed much, and because they are poodles without being poodles. They have the soft hair, smarts, and playfulness of the poodle, without the expatations of sylish grooming that the public expects of poodles,
and the owner doesn't have to say "I own a poodle". they are great dogs, but there is often a stigma about being a poodle owner, that the person is a fashion snob. A doodle doesn't have that "I care too much about my looks" stigma that people often give purebred poodles.
So what would be a good match for a French Bulldog?
dogbreedinfo.com has photos of hybrid/crossbred Frenchies. (no it isn't my site)
DeleteMost of the Frenchie crosses have been crossed with another snub-nosed dog - and you can clearly see that the crosses are half Frenchie!
The Frenchie/ Min Pin hybrids don't look so Frenchie. The photos of the Frengles (scroll on the site, there are several photos) don't look too Frenchie because they aren't snub-nosed.
It is weird how the beagle/pug (puggle) dogs look so different from the beagle/Frenchie (frengle) dogs.
The pinched nares come through to some of the crossbreds - but not so extreme as the ones here on PDE blog. Some of the hybrid Frenchies, who are part other bulldog, have a better nose.
There is a Frenchie/Pug photo too.
And other hybrids too. Photos of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels/ Poodle (cavapoo), and CKCS/ bichon frise (cavachon).
--------------------------------------
Choose your poison. (joke)
the majority of poodle crosses are bought because people want a stuffed toy with a cute name , most owners don't bother grooming them & their coats are much harder to manage than a purebred poodle.
DeleteIts also not compulsory to clip a poodle in a traditional trim
Having had and have Poodles and Poodle crosses in my experience of keeping both the Poodles coat is the harder to maintain than the cross. In most crosses with the Poodle the coat is less dense making it easier to clip and in some of the crosses no trimming is needed because genetically they have taken after the dog crossed with, that the coat only grows to a short length.
DeleteIn my experience most people like the non moulting aspect and statistical chance of a healthier dog. In my experience people in general are slowly getting more savvy and educated in aquiring a puppy and unfortanately most breeders do not give full disclosure about their breed or cross breed, this goes across the board from the top show breeders to the puppy farming breeders. The way forward is to expose this factor to potential buyers, education the public in buying a puppy will be the main driving force in eradicating bad breeders be that puppy farmers or show breeders breeding dogs with exaggerations that have no function other than the cute factor and predispose the dog to serious health issues.
Poodles don't really have dense coats.& unless they are terribly matted are not hard to clip ( you can't get clipper lines on a poodle & the clippers run through the coat easily ) they dry quite quickly too.
DeleteIts the crosses with lhasa's and spaniels that have thick coats , with undercoat that mats up
Anonymous 09:01, quoted from the KC breed standard for all the Poodles, " Coat: Very profuse and dense of good hard texture. All short hair close, thick and curly."
DeleteNobody buys a live dog when what they really want is a stuffed toy. Maybe what you mean is that people who buy fluffy dogs tend to be people who ignore the real exercise and action needs of their pets, and expect their pets to fufill whatever expatations the owner projects onto the pet?
ReplyDeleteThat is NOT limited to peole who buy fluffy dogs. Boyfriends and girlfriends do that to each other. Parents and children often expect the other to conform to their assumptions about what people in a certain role should have.
People often see the role but not the person/pet under it.
People buy a puppy to be a guard dog - and then expect it to be mean. Other people buy a puppy as a pet for their children and expect the dog to be good with their children. Yet both puppies could be from the same litter.
Advise from the All Creatures Great and Small series: "Before you buy the calf, take a good long look at the cow".
In inbred animals, it is most important to know the parents and grandparents. In mutts, inherited traits are still there, but they are more heterogenic and so less extreme.
People expect poodles owners to be different from pitbull owners, and both of these to be different from collie or beagle owners. Is there any truth in these beliefs?
I am not a dog groomer, but many people who have groomed their own purebred have chosen a mix for their next dog, and been happier with the ease of grooming in the mix.
Of course, many people love playing with their dog's hair/coat and ease of grooming is not as important to them as being able to get the results they want.
Believe me people do , when they get it neutered at 5 months because they " don't like boy things" & leave all the care to their 9 year old then take it to a groomers demanding its mats be painfully pulled out so it still looks like a "teddy bear" ( can't clip it , it wouldnt be cute ) it is because the kid wanted a toy that moves. They don't actually want a dog that has free will & bad habits
DeleteI have heard of people buying a cockapoo because their first dog was a pure cocker spaniel and its coat was too much!
ReplyDeleteDon't even get me started on show english cockers with their horribly thick greasy coats.
DeleteNo follow up post for building better brachycephalics?
ReplyDeleteWaiting on the official report... imminent!
Delete