It says that "Jenny" had an old and minor eye injury - incurred when she was a puppy. It has caused the dog no lasting irritation or damage.
It is obviously important to tread a little carefully here as I do not have the benefit of the vet report which has not been released. But if this is the case, and if there was no other reason for the dog's DQ, then her disqualification would seem unfair.
Overall, Jenny is a less exaggerated Bulldog; she was not panting in the ring and having seen some footage of her at Crufts uploaded to YouTube, she did, indeed, move freely enough. So did the dog CC, incidentally - Birmingham Prince at Midlandbulls - although this dog's right nostril looks stenotic which will not help his breathing and, as others have noted before, Bulldog teeth do not seem a big priority in the ring (perhaps because of the difficulty of achieving good teeth in a brachycephalic head).
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| The dog CC - Birmingham Prince at Midlandbulls |
Of course, as was made ultra clear by the Kennel Club, it was not the independent vet's job to rule on exaggeration - or even stenotic nares - so the fact that Jenny is better than some is not the issue here. The vet's job was to pick up lameness, obvious respiratory problems; skin issues and debilitating eye problems. Does an old, healed eye injury fit this bill? No, it doesn't. But what's needed now is not litigation (after all, everyone entered knowing the vet decision was final and referees in every sport from cricket to tennis to football get it wrong from time to time - you just have to take it on the chin).
What's needed is a sensible discussion about how to make independent scrutiny work. The decision to make the checks independent was last-minute - prompted in part I believe by the widespread scepticism that if they weren't it would be a whitewash. After all, the Chief Vet at Crufts is a former breeder/exhibitor of pugs who is on the record saying he doesn't believe that hemivertebrae in the breed has anything to do with a breed standard that says that a double curl in the tail is desirable or that having a ridiculously flat face causes breathing problems.
Below are a couple of other pix from the Bulldogs at Crufts, showing that this breed has a long way to go, overall, particularly regarding the very short muzzle. But there has been some progress made regarding leg-length/athleticism, and there's no doubt that gasping waddlers are much less likely to be rewarded in the ring today. And, yes, the Bulldog Breed Council was working on this before Pedigree Dogs Exposed.
It was unfortunate for them, really, that PDE - Three Years On was able to show a dog with obvious eye and skin-fold problems (not entered at Crufts, I note, despite having qualified) winning at Newbury last year (BOB and Group 1). It is evidence, though, of why we need vet checks. If they had been up and running last summer, the Newbury champ would not have won.
What's needed is a sensible discussion about how to make independent scrutiny work. The decision to make the checks independent was last-minute - prompted in part I believe by the widespread scepticism that if they weren't it would be a whitewash. After all, the Chief Vet at Crufts is a former breeder/exhibitor of pugs who is on the record saying he doesn't believe that hemivertebrae in the breed has anything to do with a breed standard that says that a double curl in the tail is desirable or that having a ridiculously flat face causes breathing problems.
Below are a couple of other pix from the Bulldogs at Crufts, showing that this breed has a long way to go, overall, particularly regarding the very short muzzle. But there has been some progress made regarding leg-length/athleticism, and there's no doubt that gasping waddlers are much less likely to be rewarded in the ring today. And, yes, the Bulldog Breed Council was working on this before Pedigree Dogs Exposed.
It was unfortunate for them, really, that PDE - Three Years On was able to show a dog with obvious eye and skin-fold problems (not entered at Crufts, I note, despite having qualified) winning at Newbury last year (BOB and Group 1). It is evidence, though, of why we need vet checks. If they had been up and running last summer, the Newbury champ would not have won.
Bulldogs at Crufts 2012
The thing to take from this is that everyone did their best to make the new regulations work. The judges did their best to promote more moderate dogs ( a job that will be easier next year as fewer dogs with extreme confirmation are eligible for Crufts). The vet or vets were also reasonably generous or so I thought. The GSD in particular struck me as the recipient of such generosity. I don't know that I would have passed him despite his confirmation being better than many.
ReplyDeleteHopefully both groups will continue to cooperate and enable this process to move forward.
Interesting blog - if it is indeed the case that the independent vet got it wrong (and as Jemima rightly says, mistakes do get made across the board), then hopefully the Bulldog Breed Council will raise the issue with the KC in a mature and rational manner. There are always going to be teething problems with any changes that are introduced, but the health of the dogs should come before anything else.
DeleteI agree here, the Bulldogs looked great in the ring, and it was nice to see the emphasis on health as well as the characteristics that make them so popular.
ReplyDeleteA massive shame about the vet check panning out the way it did, surely some common sense with the 'high profile' breeds, such as producing a historical record from their vet (although sceptics will arguer they could be forged or incomplete)will have alerted the 'checking vet' at Crufts that there was no eye problem hostory, just an injury. The same goes for the Clumber, I was saddened to hear the owners interview where she stated her dog wasn't confirmed due to it's eye looking a little red, and after all the hours it spent in the ring I'd expect most of them to feel hot and flushed, most of the humans were afterall! and again, common sense would tell the vet that a hot dog does get reddening of the eyes. Some work left to be done but nevertheless, it's work that has started.
Emmett, Worcester.
The owners should release the report.
ReplyDeleteThere is so much spin going on about so many of these dogs.
Exactly. If it's just an old eye injury, why on earth haven't they released the report?
Deletethe gsd was adisgrace to dog breeding .... sorry but it has to be said.
ReplyDeleteAs you can see in the picture of the red/white pied male(centre), he has good width of jaw allowing the teeth to be evenly placed in a line in the mouth with good width between the canines.
ReplyDeleteHis mouth is open but he is not gasping for air or rasping, his tongue is not exposed. His nose rope is not heavy, his nostrils are wide, his head and general shape is not exaggerated.
He is nearly 4 years old now and todate has a clear vet record, only seen for kennel cough inoculation and yearly jabs.
A photo represents one moment in time, we have pictures with him in the living room with a forelimb in the air...is he lame.....NO!
Emmett in Worcester - the Clumber owner stated quite clearly that "Clumbers are MEANT to have red eyes", so it was nothing to do with the dog being a little too warm. The vet certificate which is in the public domain, stated quite clearly that the dog had bilateral ectropion, particularly marked in one eye and with secondary conjunctivitis.
DeleteMark Keegan - if you want to send me pix of the dog (for publication or not - your choice) showing me that the dog has more wide open nares than appears to be the case in the above picture, I will remove the reference to stenotic nares.
Deletejem@pedigreedogsexposed.com
Jemima
I think it is very important when you put photos on something like this that you make sure they are all taken in the same position and with them standing in a way that the problem area can actually be viewed properly. With regard to the dog in the second picture, the way the photo has been taken does not show the length of his muzzle enough for anybody to judge or make comments on. I have actually seen this dog in the flesh and he does have a good length of muzzle. He is a very happy and healthy dog, who has no breathing problems whatever.
Deletethe only thing you would be getting from me is a letter from my solicitor. You are not a vet.. you have no right to make a statement like that without proof. Your hubris is gotten out of control. I think only a really good lawsuit will take you down
Delete3:50
Delete... this statement "although this dog's right nostril looks stenotic" is an opinion and we are all allowed to have an opinion, be it negative or positive, in the countrie(s) we live in. I could go on but the key word in the above is the word "LOOKS"... not has.
hmm I wish I had a screen shot.. that is not what it said before but the offer to change the statement if a photos is sent to show something else indicates that the blogger knows what she writes about...and that a different photo would allow her to make a different assessment
DeleteTry Wayback Machine. I have not edited that sentence since I posted it. And of course the offer remains (just made to the co-owner, too, who has written threatening to sue). Show me other pix of the dog's nostrils/teeth and I'm happy to amend.
DeleteJemima
are you a vet?? no have you been over the dogs you so rudely mention in your statement...No.. so how can you comment on a dog you know nothing about.
DeleteThey should sue you as you are mentioning dogs names and not thinking on how this could affect the people who own these dogs. If a vet says the dog is healthy and they are issued with certificates etc who are you to comment when you know nothing about the breed!!
You stick your cross breeds!!!!!
@ Mark Keegan:
DeleteWhy are you flipping your lid when it appears that Jemima didn't claim that your dog had any of the problems listed in this article? From what I can see she is only showing the bulldogs of the ring of that time and place. And did she not complement some of the advancements that the bulldogs seem to be making? I think you're taking her critical view which seems to be of the entire breed a bit too personally.
@ anon 0350:
If you are Mark, again, you're taking this way out of proportion. She did not claim that your dog had a nare problem, what she said is that it seems as though he might have a problem in the right nare. She is stating an opinion and makes clear that her opinion of your dog is not a fact. Therefore you really have no ground to sue her on.
bulldog havoc
DeleteIt appears that wires are getting crossed on this thread. I wrote my original comment about the dog in the centre of the group of three pictures together.
All the other comments are from other bloggers.
I believe Jemima is speaking about the first dog in the top picture and the owner.
6 dogs failed, only 2 really being commented on.. Think that says a lot for the first time vet checks have been in place.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day unless the vet report is released we can't know for sure why they were DQ can we. I doubt any owner would want to admit a worse reason than previous injury for DQ.
ReplyDeleteThese Bulldogs definitely look better than some I have seen, but it's not good enough, every breed deserves to have a proper muzzle surely, one where there can be no mistake about breathing difficulties whatsoever.
"These Bulldogs definitely look better than some I have seen"
DeleteAnd so should surely be applauded rather than penalised.
"but it's not good enough"
Genetic change doesn't happen instantly; it takes generations. Even the vet who was interviewed said it would be unreasonable to expect much noticeable change within 10 years.
face it it will never be "good enough:" for most of you until all dogs look like mongrels
DeleteA dog doesn't have to look like a mongrel. If I want a dog with the english bulldog looks ill get a bulldogge. Its about health! Why is it so hard for some of you to understand that? This isn't just talk this is science. Prooven facts!
DeleteScience?? Science?? you mean like in the Thomas Dolby song.. yes I can see that.. LOL "Prooven facts" are "science"
Delete@ anon 0313:
Delete"face it it will never be "good enough:" for most of you until all dogs look like mongrels"
whoever here is claiming that Jemima wants the dogs to be "mongrels" when all she is asking for is improvement of the breed? Need anyone remind you that your preferred breed seen here, the english bulldog, was once breed from mongrels known as olde english bulldogges or what we might call today pit bulls?
I personally would prefer the olde english over the "improved" english bulldog... Take a look at the leavitt bulldogs. They are functional and have fewer health problems due to having wider hips, longer legs, less wrinkles, and more muzzle/
@ anon 1259:
Delete"Science?? Science?? you mean like in the Thomas Dolby song.. yes I can see that.. LOL "Prooven facts" are "science"
I would suggest that before trying to make an argument you make sure that it has a real basis and footing as well as decent punctuation and grammar. You don't have to be perfect in either but your response is a mere ad hominem as you offer no real basis for its existence.
"Even the vet who was interviewed said it would be unreasonable to expect much noticeable change within 10 years."
DeleteAre you serious? You can breed a completely different breed into another breed, and have the dogs looking back to normal in something like 4 generations. It does NOT take 10 years to change phenotype in dogs. Granted, it might take 10 years for everyone to admit that it has to change and get with the program.
Birmingham Prince at Midlandbulls does not have Stenotic nares as Jamima Harrison mentions in her above report!
ReplyDeleteDont think its fare to publish any personal opinions/comments on any breed that qualified for crufts and won a cc!!!
You obviously dont own the breed else you wouldnt write aload of nonsense that no one actually wants to read!!!!!!!!!
Sure it's fair! I bet if they were positive, you'd be thrilled.
DeleteI just took in a Bulldog in need of a good home, from finished champion lines from the states. At only two years of age, he is already slated for surgery to correct his airway to although breathing, open his nostrils, remove a portion of his tail due to screw-tail, and skin medication to control his skin, which despite regular cleaning likes to retain moisture in the folds on his face. Especially after dealing with his problems (a 5K dog sold with full show and breeding rights), I will never again touch a Bulldog with a ten foot pole. I'm sure his breeder will enjoy his father's show ring success and continue to completely deny his problems (their excuse was that "he is a bulldog, they have health issues").
ReplyDelete_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
I do agreed with this post - I also feel that the vet checks could have been held in a much more professional manner, and should have been a requirement given before dogs entered the breed ring. If not available already, there should be a form available in which old injuries can be noted. I happen to find that bitch that won the class very moderate, and although moderate is extreme in any other breed, a moderate is much better than the extreme version I see everywhere here.
I would say that the first pictured dog wasn't over exaggerated in fact looks like a perfect example we would want to see the breed going , yes he is short in muzzle but no were near as bad as some, he looks very nice his nostrils which can be partly seen look wide ,yes he has a nose roll but not exaggerated in any way . so i really feel this dog shouldn't be placed there.
ReplyDeleteGet rid of the back yard breeders & the people who care how the breed is going will continue to better the breed...
no what will happen is this.. the GOOD breeders will drop out .. the basset winner already said they are quitting ..to make room for the less adept breeder.. A move carefully planned by the animal rights groups.. Top breeders show their dogs.. they are "easy pickins".when they have been destroyed. they will take care of the rest by legislation that will eventually outlaw all breeding of dogs because of "puppy mills and "backyard breeding"
DeleteIt isn't the backyard breedes who are responsible for the current state of the bulldog. For 25 years the Kennel Club has been trying to get breeders and judges to breed less extreme dogs without success. It is the choices of show breeders that have led to this situation so they should suck it up, stop whining and stop blaming others for their mistakes.
DeleteMy bulldog IS from a breeder who showed, did health tests, ect. This didn't stop the dog from numerous health problems (see above post)... I would release the kennel name but at this point I'm trying to get at least some money from them to afford all his surgeries, so won't be releasing any information yet.
Delete3:17 - The "good breeder" needs to grow a pair and stop whining. I cannot get over the attitudes from these so-called "reputable"/"good" breeders. They get eliminated from ONE class at ONE show and suddenly the sky is falling and they have to get out. Grow up. They can either move on and change their ways, or get out completely. Their choice.
Lastly - who knew that asking breeders to not create a dog that requires frequent surgeries to correct throat, eye and structure problems was outlawing all breeding? Honestly, LOL.
if you adopted a baby would you be asking the agency to pay the health bills if your child had a problem
DeleteAnonymous at 3.17 pm: if they were good breeders, they'd know enough to be able to breed away from those problems.
DeleteThey wouldn't have dogs that would fail a vet check in the first place, or at least they'd know enough not to show them or breed from them.
It's like saying that requiring those who rescue to not have animal cruelty convictions will chase away all the good rescuers. It just sounds ridiculous to anyone who actually thinks about it.
Someone who breeds a dog with ectropion (for example), and holds that up as their best animal, obviously isn't a good breeder.
I don't see how you can think that isn't as bad as a byb throwing two random dogs together- at least if the byb gets a health problem it's an accident, rather than an aim.
Anon - 9:23
DeleteUm... the dog is not a child. The dog is a dog.
I did not adopt him, I paid 5K for a show quality dog with a health guarantee, which they are NOT honoring. So yes, they WILL be helping pay the vet bill with or without legal assistance.
@Anon - 9.23
DeleteNo, I would not. I would also not put the baby on a leash and put him on public display at a baby show, then put him out for stud on other babies I feel fit the standard of baby that I am looking for.
Im sorry, but why is it that everyone is so quick to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to the Bulldog – most of you have never even owned a bloody Bulldog!
ReplyDeleteI have owned 4, 1 of which I bred myself. Never to date have I had any of these supposed ‘health issues’ with any of them. All of them from different lines.
No one is saying all Bulldogs are healthy. We recognise our breed has issues and are working to eradicate these issues.
What we are not happy about is that based on 1 single snap shot you people are judging these dogs pictured above. 2 of the dogs pictured above I know personally and 1 I know extremely well. Well enough to state that he should not be reported on as insinuating the breed has a long way to go!
Bulldogs can still look like Bulldogs and have a happy healthy life. Its about research. No amount of health checks will ever secure a healthy dog, they are only there as a guideline to ensure you are breeding for as little problems in that future line. Every breed of dog has issues, you would be stupid to say otherwise! Are you saying that Bulldog breeders are happy to breed dogs with low life expectancy, numerous health issues, and knowing they are going to cause heartache? Dont be so stupid!
The reason BYB are referred to so many times as these people couldn’t care less what they breed as they only breed for MONEY! They talk the talk and will give you all the bumf of the day to make them look good, hell, they will no doubt be an Assured Breeder! Does this mean you should buy from them – NO!
I love how people are referring to owning a ‘healthy’ Bulldog they would get an alternative – im sorry but an Alternative is not a Bulldog. Its a variation of the breed. There is no background on them or standard apart from the Victorian and the Victorian Bulldog is the only one I will recognise as they believe in health testing and they go by a confirmed standard by their own registry body etc although in saying that, there is not enough knowledge about them to be able to confirm temperament, health, genetic disease, hereditary issues etc.
Anon 03:28 - I am jumping on the bandwagon and I have owned a Bulldog! I have a Frenchie, too, another breed prone to pinched nostrils and other health problems associated with their conformation. I have NEVER met a single breeder of Bulldogs who claims their dogs are 100% healthy in good faith and have no breeding issues (i.e issues with heat). I'd love to see pictures of your four Bulldogs with no health problems. They are a rarity, and one worth sharing with the world!
DeleteThere is actually a new (Swiss) breed of politically correct Bulldogs in the offing, which has not yet been recognised by the FCI, i.e. the "Continental Bulldog". This is a link showing its standard: http://www.continental-bulldog.ch/standard-e.htm . If you google "Continental Bulldogs" , you will also find several photographs...
ReplyDeleteNow that would seem to be the way to go.
DeleteBulldog breeders worked hard with the Kennel Club to improve their health and fitness. It was thus a slap in the face to have the Best of Breed at Crufts fail due to a healed eye injury as set out in the press release on the Bulldog Breed Council web site.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is never question the fitness of today's bulldog, this video http://youtu.be/724bBPyqS7Q will go along way to make people thing differently