Tuesday, 30 August 2011

Nein! German Kennel Club gets tough re Bulldogs

Extroardinary news from Germany. Following the airing of what has been hailed as "the German PDE" (watch it online here), the VDH (the German Kennel Club) has announced that it is taking over the English Bulldog breed club.

The reason? Bulldog breeders' reluctance to acknowledge and tackle the breed's many health issues.

Full details have yet to be released, but one imagines that the VDH is only going to permit the breeding of Bulldogs that meet a certain criteria from now on. What these criteria will be remains to be revealed. Hopefully some kind of measure of genuine fitness, not just the passing of the usual health/DNA tests - and hopefully also to include some limits of C-Sections as here in the UK.

In the UK after Pedigree Dogs Exposed the Kennel Club made a number of changes to the Bulldog breed standard, despite core resistance from breeders.

The KC also cites the Bulldog Breed Council here in the UK as evidence that Bulldog breeders are pulling together re health. In fact, the Council runs a Health Testing Scheme which encourages breeders to have their dogs checked by a vet, particularly before breeeding. Some breeders and bulldog puppy ads do now menton that their dogs have been checked under the scheme. What they might be a little slower to volunteer is that there is no pass or fail of this test.

I also see the Council has not changed information I highlighted last time I blogged about Bulldogs. Here are some snippets:

What is the average life expectancy?

The average life expectancy is between 8 and 10 years, some live much longer past 14 others unfortunately like any living creature can develop illness and reduce its life expectancy.
Average life expectancy 8-10 years? This is stretching it a bit given that the KC/BSAVA survey in 2004 found the median age of death to be 6.29 years. There is mention of a further 2006 survey on the Breed Council website but no results published there and there is no current health survey.

I find it astonishing that the KC simply doesn't insist that breeds such as the Bulldog that are on the high-profile list run an ongoing health survey - or otherwise make more effort to gather and collate information on health issues, as does the excellent Dachshund Breed Council.
Are Bulldogs Healthy?
The Breed Council with its responsible Breed Clubs and their members have developed a basic voluntary health examination prior to breeding. It should be noted that despite all the negative publicity given to this breed with regard to health, the bulldog does not normally suffer from any one of the general canine diseases that the BVA and the KC routinely require or recommend screening.
This is weasel-wording - as well as untrue. The Bulldog's mean hip score is 45 (ie. dreadful) and hip dysplasia is most certainly a "general canine disease that the BVA and the KC routinely require or recommend screening." Of course, according to Bulldog breeders, Bulldog hips are a special case to which the normal rules do not apply - ergo they don't need to be tested and they seem to have convinced the KC of this, too. In fact, only three Bulldogs were hip-scored in 2010 - and only 25 have been tested since the hip scheme began. Last year, the KC registered around 5,000 Bulldogs.

The KC does not require Bulldogs bred under the Assured Breeding Scheme to have undergone any tests at all. The KC merely recommends the Council Health Testing Scheme which, of course, the dogs do not actually have to pass.

This despite this breed being - unquestionably - in the top five unhealthiest breeds.
Can Bulldogs mate naturally?
Of course they can!! Breeders prefer to handle them during mating, as is the case when most pedigree dogs are mated, to ensure there is total control of the situation avoiding any accidental damage occurring to either of the valuable animals involved. There is a great deal of nonsense being printed about this procedure however no artificial means are necessary.
Well yes, they can sometimes mate naturally. But they very often don't - artificial insemination is really common in this breed and it's done to reduce the stress on both dog and bitch. This - and their unnatural conformation - is also why they are handled when they are mated naturally and it can take three to tango: one to hold/support the dog; one to hold/support the bitch and - and, often, one unsqueamish soul to guide the penis into the vagina.

Here's what one outspoken Bulldog breeder has to say on the matter.

Or see for yourself:



Can Bulldogs give Birth Naturally?
Many bulldogs can self whelp, many do, however conditions such as primary inertia and small litters can cause the need for veterinary intervention, some breeders also prefer to trust in today’s skilled veterinarians and modern advances in surgery to avoid any possible whelping problems and request that bulldog puppies are delivered by Caesarean Section. If you have bred puppies before in any other breed it is quite possible to try to safely self whelp a bulldog bitch as your past experience would identify if you needed to seek help. Whelping a Bulldog as your first breeding experience without experienced help is not recommended for novices
The 2004 KC/BSAVA health survey found that more than 85 per cent of the breed is delivered by C-section; the result of breeding for a dog whose conformation is often incompatible with mating or giving birth naturally.

From next year, the KC will no longer register puppies from bitches that have had more than two C-sections. This will, hopefully, encourage the breeding of bitches that can free-whelp and it was good to see some notices on the Bulldog benches at Crufts earlier this year boasting that particular dogs had been born or given birth without veterinary intervention. A small glimmer of hope in a breed that continues to cause great concern.

The German Kennel Club's statement on the Bulldog (in German) can be found here.

110 comments:

  1. Jeez Jemima, I was wondering when you would give in to the temptation to showcase the amazing photos of Sir Blue Pleatherpants and Son of Blue Pleatherpants manipulating a sleeping (hypoxic?) bulldog's John Thomas into a strapped-down vulva. The little epigraphs about "love" sent me to a hot shower with a brillo pad and some bleach.

    Or, in a word, Ewwww.

    I am NOT brave enough to play the video.

    Seriously, why even the conceit of "natural" mating? Is a syringe too expensive?

    I bred a petite bitch to a medium-sized (and rather tall) stud this spring. There was about a 20# weight difference. Somehow they managed to figure it out. Rosie was not crushed, and no one had to get "hands on" to make it happen.

    A "natural" mating is one in which two dogs are introduced in a room, kennel, yard, or cow pasture and they take it from there.

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  2. I appreciate the breeders honesty, but the point is you shouldn't have to hold down a bitch or put her on a "cradle".
    It appears that true unassisted natural matings are rare in this breed, and that is not how it should be.

    I wish the KC had the guts that they do in Germany, just get change happening immediately.
    Just hearing a bull dog breath sounds labouring. I know they know no different, but its no where near my definition of healthy.

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  3. Ok ... that's disgusting and very sad. But here's a really stupid question. Are those dogs breathing like that because of the excitement of what is going on, or is their breathing normally that audible?

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  4. Based on the bulldogs I have met, its normally that audible. My dog once got right freaked out in a Petsmart because he could hear a bulldog breathing from across the store. I had to go out of my way to socialize him to snort-ey dogs. Very, very sad, and unlikely to change because every bulldog owner I have met just loved how their dogs snored and snorted and had jaws whose teeth didn't meet in any way. They all think its "adorable!"

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  5. Oh, that video. How to make the viewer laugh and cry simultaneously. Knotty Dogs, the breathing is probably that audible normally from what I've seen of other bulldogs. To my eye, the dogs appeared to have the libido of stuffed toys, so I don't think the breathing is passionate. How the owner's head doesn't explode when he says both "natural is best" and "he [the dog] couldn't do this without help" in nearly the same breath is beyond me. Then again, he did say bulldogs are the most beautiful breed in the world.

    I'm with Heather about the bleach and brillo pad needed after visiting the outspoken bulldog breeder's website. The position of the helpers seemed a little, ah, suggestive, too.

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  6. "normal" depends on who are you asking.

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  7. hmm I noticed in your mixed breed article on Tollers that there was an assistant in that breeding shot.. someone was holding the bitch or maybe it was the dog.. but they certainly were not out in some cow shed alone..
    If you cannot watch a breeding you should not be breeding dogs.. leaving them alone in a cow pasture is dangerous to both dog and bitch. I guess if you do not care about your dogs.. either one.. you can just turn them loose in the yard.. in fact I am sure that is where the term "backyard breeder' comes from.
    I would NEVER allow my precious animals to be is a risky situation of breeding without supervision.
    A natural mating with assistance is the best way to produce puppies..AI ( Heathers use of the syringe) also works well but not as well as an assisted natural mating. I also use a breeding bench when I do not have an assistant.. it is for the PROTECTION of the animals.. who can be seriously injured if turned loose to "take it from there".
    If watching a breeding makes you want to scrub yourself with a brillo pad.. you should take up sailing or knitting. I cannot even imagine what you would do at a whelping..
    as for limiting c sections.. certainly some animals, both bitches and puppies, will die due to this restriction but anything for "health" even if it means dead bitches and puppies.
    If you look hard enough you can find pictures to support anything.. including the one Heather speaks of..that does not mean all breedings in any one breed occur this way.. and please before anyone say it.. there is no such thing as a "rape rack". The use of that term is demeaning to women and is incorrect as well.
    Breeding dogs is not "disgusting" unless of course you feel that breeding is somehow connected to humans.. hence your use of "unsqueamish" to describe the person who might be touching the "boy part" also known as the penis.. funny thing that.. many vets make a good living doing just that all day long..

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  8. during lambing season it is normal for us to insert our hands and arms to pull out lambs. if we don't intervene, they would die, if not the ewes as well.

    this is not for the average mild mannered housewife, and i can tell you that you really do need to scrub down with a brillo pad after pulling out 5 lambs on a friday night!

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  9. That's a revealing post, Bestuvall. So your bull terriers need help to mate?

    I think you'd be surprised just how many breeders of conformationally-normal dogs do indeed leave them pretty much to it, with supervision being visual and with rarely any need to inervene physcially. Some even allow a degree of mate choice - a good thing in my view I am disturbed by how strangely acquiescent this bitch is and wonder if she has been sedated.

    As for C-section limits resulting in dead bitches and puppies, yes it's possible, but the alternative, for me, is even more gruesome - the acceptance that in making this poor breed conform to some human defined notion of what it should be (one that is entirely based on whim as clearly there is no functional advantage in the phenotype), we have robbed it of the most important test of any species' survivability: the ability to reproduce.

    Jemima

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  10. I would never, ever under any circumstances allow someone to use one of my Pointer stud dogs without a holder for both dog and bitch. If that is somehow contributing to your notion of what is and isn't proper, then so be it.

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  11. Revealing? LOL you are funny.you make the "assumption" that my dogs need help to mate..and that is not what I said at all..I said I WANT to help them as I do not want damage done to my dogs by letting them go about their business in some yard or shed... what I am revealing is that like most breeders I know we value our animals and we take care to make sure they are protected at all times and that includes during breeding. Some people ( and I am sure you know them) let their bitches whelp in a barn or under the front porch too.. that is not me..nor anyone I know..
    Mate choice? LOL.. yes that occurs.. on the streets of many poor countries.. where mate choice is not only made by the dogs but is sometimes made by MANY dogs.. but then many here probably think that is a good thing.. makes for "genetic diversity" and "healthier dogs". right?
    Obviously you have not seen many breedings.. many bitches are very quiet.. they don't need to be sedated..
    the ability to reproduce by only natural means is long gone.. even for humans.. frozen semen, in vitro, AI's etc have long taken over.. thank Dog for science.. for dogs and humans.. we are better for it.. not worse.
    ps .. thanks ANON 21:55 you are one smart breeder.one who protects your dogs from harm

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  12. Well hey ho jemima if you think they should be left to it let all the dogs take it in turns with bitch after all that's what they would want to do, really what a silly comment of course you would want to supervise it's a totally different thing to assisting after all I wouldn't want my lad to be dragged round by his diggery doo if the bitch got spooked.

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  13. @ChveiotEwe.. yup breeding and birthing is a messy business no matter what the animal.. Jemima you need to get into the fray and actually do some breeding and whelping.. heck I will even buy you a box of Brillo pads.

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  14. By mate choice, Bestuvall (and I'm sure both you and Anon @ 22.15 understood really) I meant that if the bitch refuses the male that her decision should be respected.

    In "SOS The Purebred Dog", Johan Gallant argues that we should consider this more often - because a) otherwise it is stressful for the bitch and b) because the bitch may know better than we do about whether or not a particular male is a good mate. Certainly wolves seem to have this ability.

    As for your acceptance that human intervention is perfectly acceptable, whether human or dog, we will just have to disagree.

    Jemima

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  15. All this talk of "holding the bitch/dog, and helping them" or however you want to phrase it, reminds me of my irresponsible neighbors who have just bred their JRT's for the second time. Neighbor one owns the male, neighbor two owns the bitch. I was told by the mother of the woman who owns the bitch that she didn't want to stand last time and they had to hold her in place so she would not run/struggle. The bitch in question had her litter that her owners were so desperate for, but the poor little thing has been damaged from her forced encounter. She barks at ANY dog that gets to close to her behind, she's very skittish, constantly looking around her, reactive. So what did her owners do a few months ago? Yep, forced her to stand again for yet another mating.

    I realize that they're the definition of BYB's, but reading what some people are saying here ( Anonymous who physically restrains her Pointers?? ) makes me instantly think of my neighbors, who purposefully restrained their poor, terrified JRT too.

    Louise

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  16. Most pedigree dogs have assisted matings as the others have stated,however Bulldogs can and do mate naturally but its not something any responsible breeder would do,what a pity you had to find a breeder in the USA with two noisey breathing bulldogs to put on your blog Im sure we have breeders here who do matings without talking such nonesense,we have breeders who always self whelp too and bulldogs that are every bit as active as any other dog take a look at this link
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Bk6JrE2O4

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  17. I don't consider "natural" to be having dogs breeding in my lap with me helping by guiding the penis into the vagina. If that's the only way to make it happen, then perhaps it's not meant to be and should be left alone.

    Holding on to the dogs while they're mating? What is wrong with you people???? Provide a nice, quiet spot for them while you sit and have a beer. They'll be fine.

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  18. "I was told by the mother of the woman.. who .. yadayada".. another case of not knowing anything about breeding dogs "damaged from forced breeding".. yikes.. lets arrest those nasty dogs who are raping others..as far as my experience goes .. my bitches will not stand if they are not ready.. nor will the dogs breed a bitch that is not ready.. you can "try to force" them all day long.. not ready?/ nope.. not gonna happen..have you ever really held a dogs penis and tried to force it into a bitch.. nope.. nada.. not going to do it.. a dogs penis is constantly erect.( one of the few species that have a bone in their penis). but it has to be out of the sheath in order to breed or ejaculate.and yes they can be dragged around by their "diggery do" (LOL) and far worse.. if the dog breaks his penile bone it is a very serious matter.. dogs who are experienced will not breed any bitch that is not ready..why bother? Dogs breed for reproduction and procreation .. not as a recreational activity.. no matter what the animal rights groups tell you.
    Pregnancy is a natural state for bitches after they go out of season .. in fact their uterus does not know the difference if they have been bred or not.. it acts the same.. which is why some bitches who "rest" between cycles get pyometria and die..or at least get very sick.. People here need to get real and understand what dog breeding is all about.. blood, sperm, semen, and more blood.

    and really "mate select".. what.. turn your bitch out with a group of males ( make sure they are all health tested of course) and let her choose? her "choice should be respected" HUH.. are you breeding animals or getting married? which is one reason I do not let unexperienced owners stay for matings.. I had one parent whose children danced around and sang.. LALALA.. XXX is getting married. So I guess if the bitch had 'refused the dog I would tell the owner the wedding is off? No matter that they drove 14 hours and stayed for two days at a motel..paid a fortune in health testing and progesterone.. Breeding dogs is a serious business. it should be looked at that way..
    Bestuvall

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  19. "Holding on to the dogs while they're mating? What is wrong with you people???? Provide a nice, quiet spot for them while you sit and have a beer. They'll be fine."

    you obviously care little for your breeding animals if you even have any.

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  20. Again you are twisting what is being said, I said supervised not assisted I no way would I just leave them to run free I stay in the room with them and am on hand to settle the bitch if indeed she decides to take off mid tie, anyone who restrains a bitch is a assistant to rape which is totally different to supervising and being on hand if that should happen bt ofc you people would rather believe that you have the moral highground.

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  21. Ah, two dogs who manage the natural act of procreation without manual assistance from some "fancier" (or three of them) are now the poster-puppies for dog neglect. Love it.

    They are dogs, not porcelain figurines. They are not going to break.

    Or if they are, you have a problem. It's not a problem my dogs have. And here's a hint -- the "problem" is not "How do I get more of these made?"

    Bestuvall fantasizes that my disgust at the manually managed rack "matings" translates into some sort of incompetence at midwifery. Perhaps there's some version of "truth" in this. I'm sure I have less experience with uterine inertia, surgical deliveries, deformed or fading puppies, cannibalism, and all-night neonatal death watch than any average bull terrier breeder.

    Agree about supporting mate choice. I will not breed a bitch who won't or can't stand naturally, or a dog who won't or can't achieve a tie by himself. Part of that is giving the bitch the right of refusal. Inconvenient, but better in the long term. I have an uncommon breed, and stud dogs who meet my criteria are not exactly thick on the ground. It has has involved a lot of costly travel to get natural breedings (actual natural breedings, not whack and rack affairs) every time. I don't rule out a long-distance AI in the future -- but only for proven natural breeders, and I'm frankly loathe to do it.

    This litter I took Rose a day's drive to a relatively inexperienced stud. I had a backup stud a few hours away from that one in case she didn't like him. When the jungle drums fail to beat for a healthy, fertile macrosmic animal, that's generally their lizard brain figuring out that that guy's MHC is too similar. One ignores that sort of evolutionary wisdom at one's peril.

    You might, for example, end up with a snorting sow-like bitch forcibly strapped into a ... errr... device while you try to jam a comatose dog's apathetic penis into what will, best outcome, be a neglectful and unwilling dam.

    Most you know, sane, people do not want to go there.

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  22. Just so we're clear I believe in using assisted matings which basically is me holding onto a collar and maybe propping up a bitch if the stud is heavy or she is a goofy maiden bitch who doesn't know what to do with herself. It is the best way to go and not bad husbandry in that it prevents injury to both parties. That said my dogs can figure it out on their own as well I'm sure because they have natural enough anatomy to figure out what goes where.

    I doubt that bitch in the video was sedated. She is simply in standing heat and odds are this isn't her first go around at the breeding barn.

    Seriously, self selection of mates? A bitch will happily be bred by her father, brother, uncle, along with any other intact dog in the neighborhood while in standing heat. I remember that much very clearly from the school yard.

    I'm game and agree with a ton of information on your site Jemima. This is just one practical topic where you really don't know what you're talking about.

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  23. yep - we also do assisted matings - assisting has nothing to do with conformation ( my breed is about as 'natural' a shape as you can get ) it's simply the responsible thing to do to avoid any kind of injury to either the dog or bitch - but then Jemima as you have never bred a single dog you'ld hardly know that !!


    ".....and unlikely to change because every bulldog owner I have met just loved how their dogs snored and snorted and had jaws whose teeth didn't meet in any way. They all think its "adorable!" ...."


    hit the nail on the head there - as long as the demand for brachy breeds remains they will continue to be bred - the VDH can take over the breed club and perhaps prevent registration of Bulldogs that don't fit their criteria but as long as there is a market for the 'real' version of the breed there will be breeders who breed them - after all the Pit Bull is illegal here in the Uk yet they continue to be bred - why ? because the demand for them is there - it's market forces - brachy breeds are amongst the most fashionable, they command the highest prices and their registrations have soared - people LIKE their snorting, waddling, pop eyed drooling charcateristics - put a whole load of pups in a room and it will be the Bulldog pup that people coo over most - I just don't 'get' it personally but there you are - draconian rules by the German kennel club or indeed our own will not change a single thing - it's a change in public taste that needs to happen .

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  24. "As for your acceptance that human intervention is perfectly acceptable, whether human or dog, we will just have to disagree. " says Jemima
    really? you disagree with in vitro for humans.. for people who desire their own children? Harvesting sperm for people to use when they cannot have their own children? Children for same sex couples? children for handicapped individuals who cannot conceive? You disagree that science has moved us forward benefiting both man and beast? Well then yes we will have to disagree.. as I have several friends who have benefited greatly from reproductive science..both for themselves and for their dogs.
    Bestuvall

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  25. Bestuvall, Some dog people (and I´m sure you know them) are arrogant to the point of being stupid.

    You are saying you are an experienced breeder, but you don´t see the difference between supervising a mating between to physically capable and very willing dogs, most importantly staying them during the "tie" to avoid injury to either - and on the other hand actually doing it for them???

    Agree with Knotty Dogs - what´s wrong with you?

    Concerning the bitch - of course she should be respected! A bitch in mid-season (is that the right word?) is actively encouraging the dog. If she refuses him, either she is not ready to mate just yet, and any normal dog will accept that she chases him off and keep courting her for another day or two until bitch is ready - which of course is when breeder will have best chance of pregnancy and a good-sized litter.
    Or else she simply does not take to that dog, in which case bitch knows something about him - smells too much of her own kin? something nor right in his behaviour, too forceful or aggresive?
    She has better discernment on these points than we and should have her way. Also, it would increase breeder´s chance of a good-sized litter (if mate not too closely related) and of pups who inherit the normal behaviour programme.

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  26. ever read up about how racing horses are mated? its like a military operation....don't you people see that securing both dogs so that neither can damage the other during the process is appropriate?

    sorry jemima, this thread and your commments about natural mate selection are making you sound more and more like a peta-phile.

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  27. It is true that I had no idea that some breeders were so hands-on during mating, so happy to be corrected. I have not seen many matings - and those I have (all gundogs) have been supervised but unassisted.

    Bestuvall, I am of course grateful that we have science and medicine stepping in when things go wrong but absolutely do not think we should be breeding dogs or humans that are not capable of reproducing naturally. As for your claim that what is OK for humans is OK for dogs....now I admit I have limited experience here tooas I have never attended any human unions other than those I have been personaly involved with - but we dont muzzle women with a silk scarf and I imagine you would object if proceedings were interuppted by a stranger grabbing your penis to ensure completion.

    Mating and birthing are two key tests of biological fitness. We ignore them at our dogs' peril.

    Jemima

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  28. Kitty has just been told the meaning of human beings species name:

    http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/funny-pictures-cat-hates-what-he-sees.jpg

    (sorry, couldn't resist)

    Seriously I can't help wondering whether there is a connection between behavioural problems in dogs and insisting on mating animals who are clearly not mentally normal. If a bitch is so dog-aggressive that she'd rather fight him than mate there really are questions about whether it's desirable to reproduce her temperament in the next generation.

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  29. Thank you for apologising Jemima. This is a case in point of how it is often inappropriate to portray human emotions and opinions onto animals (in this case dogs)

    There was a quote from your first programme from a man who said something along the lines of ''There are things going on in dogs that would never be allowed in humans...'' I know that is only paraphrasing, but it is these types of dramatic statements which raise the hackles of caring dog breeders (of course we do things to dogs we would not do to people....euthanasia, desexing and cage confinement for a start)

    For you to equate muzzling a nervous maiden bitch to human rape is not only ridiculous it is quite offensive. To compare dog breeders to ''fiddling pedo's'' is also disgusting and frankly a disservice to the message you are trying to portray.....one that at its core is sensible and for the greater good but all to often finds itself swirled and entangled with hype for hype's sake.

    Horses are arguably a natural and unexaggerated animal on the whole. Nowadays AI's are commonplace and natural matings often involve several handlers. When they are born, From day one you are on constant watch as an owner for a myriad of physical accidents and disasters that can happen. Your vet needs to be someone you have the utmost faith in.

    Sorry to go off course, but my point is that there is an element of animal husbandry involved in breeding animals, and the techniques which we employ to do the job properly and in the animal's best interest should not be trivialised with wacky analogies for the bemusement of our less-rural members of society.

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  30. Brigand wrote: "There was a quote from your first programme from a man who said something along the lines of ''There are things going on in dogs that would never be allowed in humans...'' I know that is only paraphrasing, but it is these types of dramatic statements which raise the hackles of caring dog breeders"

    That was geneticist Professor Steve Jones making the point that inbreeding is inbreeding, whether human or dog and no more or less damaging whatever the species. He was right.

    I have not used the word "rape" (although others have and do). And I accept the need for a degree of animal husbandry. I just think that it's a shame that assisted reproduction has become so normalised.

    As for the "fiddling pedo's" quote, please go back to the source of it (a post about censorship), from which you'll see that it is being taken out of context by those who would rather indulge in ad hominen attacks than address the issues.

    http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/05/kennel-club-bans-dog-world-from-its-agm.html

    Jemima

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  31. Jemima, no need to compare what these people do to their dogs to what we would or wouldn't do to people. What is happening to these dogs is awful enough with no comparison needed.

    It seems we've gotten quite off topic. Getting back to bulldogs, these people are not just "assisting" (however one feels about that) ... they are forcing it to happen. First off, having the bitch over my knee and having them grunt and hump away in my lap makes me shudder. Bigger than that, though, what ever happened to natural selection? If these dogs aren't ABLE to mate, isn't forcing them to do so changing the course of nature? Maybe it's intended, then, that the breed disappear? Seriously, look how screwed up it is! The poor things can't even breathe! And people think that's cute?????

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  32. Katariina Mäki31 August 2011 14:17

    Brigand said:

    "ever read up about how racing horses are mated? its like a military operation....don't you people see that securing both dogs so that neither can damage the other during the process is appropriate?"

    I own Icelandic horses. They are mated by taking mares to the farm where the stallion lives and letting them graze freely together with the stallion for a week or two.

    Natural, non-assisted (but in the risk breeds of course supervised) and non-forced mating gives room for the very advantageous natural selection to work towards fitness of the offspring. It is the very first test of which animals should reproduce and transmit genes to the next generation in order to keep the species viable.

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  33. Anonymous 1.22 - "I was told by the mother of the woman.. who .. yadayada".. another case of not knowing anything about breeding dogs "damaged from forced breeding".. yikes.. lets arrest those nasty dogs who are raping others

    While you might find it funny, or unreal what happened to the JRT bitch i was referring to, it happened. Your dismissive attitude and sarcastic post doesn't say much about your concern for your bitches/dogs.

    Bodil Carlsson said it best - Or else she simply does not take to that dog, in which case bitch knows something about him - smells too much of her own kin? something nor right in his behaviour, too forceful or aggresive?

    A bitch not standing for a male does not just mean she's not ready Anonymous.

    While the little JRT didn't, for whatever reason, take to the male, she was physically restrained despite her struggles and her welfare was of little concern to her owners. Do you not find anything wrong with that scenario?

    Louise

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  34. A friend has just pointed out the irony of Germany taking over Britain's iconic breed (Churchill and all that)...

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  35. "I'm sure I have less experience with uterine inertia, surgical deliveries, deformed or fading puppies, cannibalism, and all-night neonatal death watch than any average bull terrier breeder."
    says Heather.. of course she would be wrong..
    bestuvall

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  36. Dgs should need little assistance to mate, but it is not sensible to turn them loose and let them get on with it! The courtship should be supervised and the bitches reaction watched; if she isn't ready a forceful male may try to force her and this can result in injury to one or both dogs. I tend to let my dogs (spaniels)sort out the mount and insertion themselves, but as soon as the tail flags I want the bitch owner to hold and comfort his bitch and I look after my dog. The tie is an unusal and uncomfortable position for a maiden to find herself in. Some try to lie down or roll which isn't nice for my dog. It's amazing how little size differences matter; my 19inch tall male took a few goes to cover a larger labrador bitch but they worked it out between them!(Yes, I made a litter of health tested cross breeds) I'm sure they'd manage without me there at all but why take risks? The same goes for the whelping; ideally the bitch does it all herself but I had to help a cocker whelp earlier this year ( a 'normal' breed?) the pups were not too big and her womb was pushing well but as soon as they reached the birth canal she would just stop pushing because it hurt meaning myself of her owner pulling out each pup. (She won't be bred again). Bulldog breeders need supportive vets to encourage them to try self whelping, hey need to learn how to assist at whelping and they need to accept that if an emergency caesar is required it will cost more. I'm sure with support more can do this. A good breeder/vet combo will lose no more pups at emergency than by planned casear. I have helped a breeder produce a self whelped litter of bullys and very satisfying it was. She chose a self whelped bitch and put her to a male who has produced self whelped litters. We scanned the pups and measured them around the due date to check for oversize then let nature take its course with strict instructions that after 20minutes unproductive straining the bitch was to be taken straight to the OOH clinic or to ours if it was daytime.
    Don't lets loose the bulldog...let's just improve it a bit.
    Hey, you don't think it's tit for ta do you after the nasty things the UK has said about GERMAN shepherd dogs?!
    Vicky P

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  37. one of the quotes in PDE was to Ronnie Irving .. "would you have a baby with your own daughter" a vile piece of journalism.. and quite appropriate for this topic ans yes.. bitches in standing heat will and do breed quite readily with their brothers, fathers and sons. "Mate Select' does not work most of the time in the dog world.. now wolves.. that live in the wild.. maybe so let's drop that before it gets started..People are the ones reviled by inbreeding.. not dogs.. I have never seen a dog refuse a bitch or vice versa because they "smelled too much kin".. that is anthropomorphizing at its very best..
    as for the use of the word rape when it comes to dogs.. it is DEMEANING TO WOMEN to compare the breeding of animals to the CRIME of rape.. if every woman here cannot see that.. how sad is that?
    "Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse, which is initiated by one or more persons against another person without that person's consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority or with a person who is incapable of valid consent"

    Honestly I have to agree with Brigand .. this site is more like an animal rights forum every day..
    Bestuvall

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  38. ^^I cannot agree with the 16:47 post more with the exception of this sounding like an ARA website. There will always be a variety of opinions this website attracts and the unknowing opinionated (ARA's) will be one of them. The best strategy to deal with them is to dismiss anthropomorphizing when it crops up and call the crap where you see it.

    Do I think there is something fundamentally wrong with a breed of dog who is incapable of breeding, breathing, whelping, swimming, and just being a natural creature on it's own? Yes, absolutely. I would encourage change there because any notion of these traits having a purpose is asinine, pure and simple. No english bulldog has had a bulldog job in decades if not a century or more in this country or any other country. No one even uses them as crosses for a purpose driven reason, that's how far they are from function. Their current form is nothing more than human vanity run amok.

    That said, I have seen some impressively improved bulldogs lately outside of the show ring. These dogs are fit, with good eyes, and are active as any other dog of similar size and undoubtedly english bulldogs. So it can be done.

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  39. Bestuvall, what else is forced mating but rape?
    Terminology may differ but the act is still the same!

    Your omniscience posts never cease to amaze me!

    -labpack-

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  40. As my mother used to say, Bestuvall, you are very trying.

    I asked Ronnie Irving if he would have a baby with his daughter to try to point out the nonsense of being deeply offended by this while continuing to endorse (as the KC was at the time and the AKC still does) the mating of first-degree relatives in dogs. The answer of course is no he wouldn't - and for good reason. The taboo against incest, while partly cultural, is largely driven by pretty much the same thing that drives the inbreeding avoidance that is evident in so many species. It usually ain't good for ya.

    "Male Select" by the way, is the name of the KC's good new initiative which allows you to look up health test and inbreeding info on KC dogs - not the kind of willy-nilly free-for-all that some here are continuing to erroneously suggest is being advocated here.

    It is true that thanks to our selection many dogs have lost the ability to discriminate - although some most definitely do. And why not mention wolves? They are the dog's ancestor; they practice inbreeding avoidance and there is evidence that females are able to smell out the more genetically diverse mate when faced with, say, two males that on paper are similarly related. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061221074654.htm)

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  41. I should say.. that Heather is wrong. The longer you breed dogs the more problems you will encounter. Dogs have multiple births for a reason.. because Mother nature does not expect all of them to survive.only the strongest.. so perhaps we should do the same.. let our bitches whelp outside .. in the field or barn.. and let the weakest ones die off without intervention.. now as breeders we take a different stance.. we try to SAVE as many puppies as we can.. so yes.. the longer we breed dogs.. the more dogs we try to save.. so if an emergency section is needed. we do it.. we do not let the bitch suffer and the puppies die.. every breed ( and non breed) has some dead puppies somewhere along the line and most breeds have some sort of deformities as well if the breeders are willing to admit it....uterine inertia happens in ALL dogs.. as well as cannibalism.. as for a neonatal death watch.. I have not a clue what Heather is speaking of..
    If you breed dogs long enough you will suffer the sadness of death.. and the joy of life.. no matter what the breed.. so Heather.. I will continue with my Bull Terriers.. with all of their foibles as you say.even though you highly exaggerate.. and I wish you the best of luck in your breeding endeavors what ever they are as well.Believe me I won't be criticizing what you do as I am sure it is perfect for you and your needs.
    Bestuvall

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  42. My bitch refused to mate with a stud dog on 2 occasions - separate seasons, both times she had been premate tested and was ovulating. She did allow him to mate with her once but never again. She had no puppies from that mating. She was never forced to mate and I accepted her judgement. Following her refusal to mate she required surgery to remove a stone she'd swallowed. The vet was curious as to why she had refused to mate/hadn't conceived from the one mating (she was ovulating!) and checked her uterus. That particular vet suspected endometrial hyperplasia but another thought her uterus was simply swollen after her season. Whatever it was I decided then I would not mate her again as something told me it wasn't the right thing to do. The welfare of my dog is more important than puppies! The strange thing is she will follow my own male dog about when she's in season and stand perfectly for him. He's neutered but I have no doubts she would mate with him if he was able. I've also been told of a case where 4 people held a bitch down while the stud dog mated with her. This mating resulted in a very small litter as, most likely, the bitch wasn't ready and IMO she was violated = raped! Change one word in that para Bestuvall and this incident completely meets that definition. FWIW I could not have stood back and allowed people to hold my dog if she was unwilling to mate and was screaming. There are serious welfare issues at play with the people who allowed that to happen.

    If you take the time to watch the video you will actually see the mating of the Toller with the Aussie; perfectly natural mating....you will also see a mating of 2 bulldogs where semen is collected. The bulldog can hardly breathe after the event.

    Do I think Bulldogs need to change drastically - yes! Do I think that dogs are capable of deciding if a particular chosen stud is to their advantage - yes! The latter I have experienced with my own bitch.

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  43. Brigand, I do know a bit about how racing horses or show jumpers are bred. In some places, at least. The mare is tied up, movement restricted by walls or by people holding on to her, legs hampered by ropes, so she won´t be able to kick at the precious stallion.
    Our mare was bred by the method Katariina Mäki describes. Stallion grazing along with other mares, plenty of space for everybody to move about in, and the only important precaution was to take the mare´s halter off quickly, to prevent the stallion catching a front leg in it, if the mating should take place on the spot.
    It didn´t. It was her first time, perhaps she wasn´t quite ready, but anyway she made it clear to him he had better be polite around her. He danced away. After a few attempts, he sort of resigned, invited her to share a nice spot of grass with him, which she accepted with a gracious ladylike air...:-) and then, after the male had proved to the female he was all right in the head, off they went and set about their business.
    Animal husbandry? I would say so. A very wise method, I think, in any kind of animal where you value a normal behaviour first, because the animal resulting from the mating will live in interaction with humans and perhaps will even be handled by kids. More than anything, you´d want them to be right in the head, surely?

    Our mare is a Shetland pony and so was the stud. They are none of them valuable moneywise. No family income depends on the stud fees, or the sale of foals. They can be allowed to be horses and not money machines to be be kept from any possible risk of injury or mishap. That´s the difference. It´s nothing to do with animal husbandry. The same goes for dogs.

    Of course mating and birth should be supervised. Of course inexperienced animals may need to be encouraged. But if you disallow all chance for the female - mare or bitch - to choose, you disallow the selection of temperamental traits and social behaviour that are the most important in a family dog or a family horse.

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  44. Most stud dog owners want to see a bitch held once the dogs have tied. This is purely a sensible precaution to prevent injury. It is a world away from the kind of forced mating described in the article.

    The comments here have certainly gone around the houses, but surely the most important point is that we should not have created a breed of dogs, a large proportion of which risk death when giving birth naturally.

    Having recognised that we have made a grotesque mistake, surely it is important that we put this situation right without delay.

    If the best way of doing this is to restrict the number of caesarean births that can be registered, then well done to the KC for taking this step. I wonder though, why they are waiting until next year to introduce this measure?

    Pippa

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  45. Great blog Jemima!

    On supervised or assisted breedings.

    While Shar Pei can and do breed "naturally",
    we typically supervise our breedings and in some cases do assist. These are dogs, thus behavior (even in those with excellent temperaments) can be unpredictable in breeding encounters and in some cases (especially with the more "body dominent" females who dont take well to being mounted AND are at this time raging with hormones and thus already more reactive) breeding attempts may be rebuffed and it is always possible that minor altercation could occur resulting in injury. It only takes one little "nip" from a reluctant bitch to scar a show dog for life.

    Of course minor altercations during breeding are hardly exclusive to purebred dogs. This can happen even with wolves mating in the wild and can especially happen in domesticated canids that are subject to miscommunication in body language & responses to such due to paedmorphism (arrested development beyond juvenile traits both physiologically and psychologically which may leave them lacking the development of certain language, body postures, etc. of their wild cousins and thus less socially adept). Also breedings with non pack members (unfamiliar outside dogs/bitches) also does not allow for the same courtship and bonding process that occurs in a natural pack dynamic and this too can make the breeding process more stressful and behaiors during the interraction less predictable.

    We also sometimes run across females that are VERY squirrelly even during the "standing heat" period they simply wont stand still. This too may be attributed to paedmorphism related "immature" social behaviors. We have one female here now that is this way. She is ALWAYS squirrelly and my poor male exhausts himself chasing her around when all she wants to do (24/7) is play, play, play. When they do tie she would drag him all over the yard and house (by his penis which HAS to be uncomfortable and stressful) if we didnt step in and keep her calm and in one place.

    Thus we do not take risks of allowing free-breeding, especially with dogs that are unfamiliar with each other. Even when we have those that free-breed, we step in when the tie is acheived to minimize stress and risk of injury for the male who is especially vulnerable during a tie. This kind of "intervention" in the process is, IMO responsible as we should ALWAYS act to ensure our dogs are in the safest, most stressfree circumstances we can provide at all times...we owe them this.

    With regard to hip scoring. We OFA certify every single dog we breed but far too many do not do so. Now, in the US I have found hip checking is MUCH more commonly done in Shar Pei than those UK Pei breeders. I cannot tell you how many times I hear "Our dogs do not have any hip issues, they have great movement and so we dont need to hip check our dogs". REALLY????

    This type of circular logic does NOT serve the breed. A Pei is structured (built square with strong rear muscle mass) so that one can rarely determine structural soundness by watching movement in a young adult. I have known of Pei who won nationals because of their outstanding movement yet were diagnosed with severe HD upon xray.

    I think the KCs SHOULD make hip check and other relevant health testing of parents a part of their criteria for registration of litters. I really hope that the UK KC will implement such criteria and hopefully AKC and other national KCs will follow suit.

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  46. Bestuvall said:
    as for limiting c sections.. certainly some animals, both bitches and puppies, will die due to this restriction but anything for "health" even if it means dead bitches and puppies.

    Now perhaps I have this wrong, but my understanding is not that a C section will be withheld for a dog that needs it, but simply that KC registration for those puppies will not be available in the event that the limit has been exceeded. No vet is going to refuse a life saving C section if needed, so I think it disingenous to suggest that animals will lose their lives. Simply that those breeders who have chosen to ignore the limitation would not be able to sell those puppies as KC reg.

    Once (if ever) this breed is to achieve a healthier anatomical construction which naturally bring about the ability to self whelp, the situation would not arise.

    By the way, I had a look at the bulldog council website. When I clicked on the page that asked for breeders to take part in health studies, that page comes up with an error message.

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  47. A friend of mine has a border collie who had her first litter last year. She did not want to accept the first stud offered to her (on two separate occasions). She had a reserve stud lined up and she accepted him immediately. It went very smoothly, by and large I think because she was not resistant to the stud dog. The mating was supervised, which I think is a sensible action, but not assisted or 'forced'.

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  48. I would be worried that a bulldog would have a heart attack if it attempted a normal mating, judging by the breathing of that dog in the video who WAS being supported and still sounded as though he could expire at any moment. How on earth does anyone consider an inability to breathe properly normal or cute? Madness, utter madness.

    Good on the German Kennel Club for saying enough is enough. I will be interested to see developments, and I hope JH that you will update on their efforts in the next few years. Shame our Kennel Club is so ineffectual.

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  49. ..medical procedures on pets should be made by the owner of the pet and the veterinarian treating them.. period..
    clubs and the like can make "rules" but when they do they risk losing people who care deeply for their dogs but think that they know what is best for them..
    as it stands now the clubs make the decisions for the breeders when it should be the other way around.
    so many rules and regulations will surely come to bear on YOUR breed one day.. not just bull dogs.. in fact it already has since many here see breeding humans the same as breeding dogs..except of course for the health testing part.. in that case dogs should be tested.. but who cares about people? seems ass backwards.
    as for breathing heavily during "mating".. ever seen two really large people.. and wondered.. how the heck??

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  50. maybe I should have said LIE instead of die .. as that will surely be the case as well..want to force people underground to make sure they breed dogs that are unhealthy.. make a few more rules..and of course more regulations.. that should do it
    Bestuvall

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  51. to the Pei breder:
    well done.. actually admitting that dogs sometimes actually FIGHT during a breeding.. now people will tell you that you have forced them or else that would not happen.. you should allow the bitch.. no matter how "squiggly" to accept or refuse the male you have chosen for her.. or perhaps drag him around the yard.. who cares if he is your best stud dog and your most valuable animal.. let them be DOGS for Pete sake what kind of "pet parent " are you..? nice post.. but really Shar Peis.. don;t they have "too many wrinkles" and stifles that are too straight.. and horrible skin.. and so on.. you can find out all about Shar Peis right here on this blog..
    I love the breed myself.. find them wonderful dogs..but then I like almost all breeds of pedigreed dogs.
    Bestuvall

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  52. "They can be allowed to be horses and not money machines to be be kept from any possible risk of injury or mishap. That´s the difference. It´s nothing to do with animal husbandry. The same goes for dogs."
    WHAT?/ people who want to protect their pets are now in it "for the money"? Please spare me..while in Australia a few months ago.. a friend of a friend bought his mare over to be "grazing bred".. the horse injured the mare and she was shot..
    I don't know about you but that had zero to do with money..and everything to do with husbandry,

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  53. Bestuvall - So now we establish that poor dogs and puppies aren't going to die, (that was a LIE)you were just being sensationalist (isn't that what you accuse JH of?)

    Then you say: maybe I should have said LIE instead of die .. as that will surely be the case as well..want to force people underground to make sure they breed dogs that are unhealthy.. make a few more rules..and of course more regulations.. that should do it

    You are on to something here. Certainly the breeders that want to continue to breed unhealthy dogs WILL LIE - no doubt. So we must ask ourselves, what does that say about the breeders ? Hopefully the KC will soon introduce DNA identification, and then you and others won't be able to 'lie' your way around any rules that are being brought in for the benefit of the dogs quite so easily. Why would a breeder do that anyway? one can only assume it is to preserve income from the volume of puppy sales, let's not be coy - it isn't about what's good for the dogs at all is it?

    Talk about give breeders a bad name, not all are like this (but far too many are), some (just a few) are trying to accept the very valid ills that exist in their breed and are striving to do something about it. BTW to whoever said 'your breed may be next' - my breed already is on the watch list, and I wish the KC were doing more, because SHOW breeding is ruining it, faster than it will ever be able to recover.

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  54. as for breathing heavily during "mating".. ever seen two really large people.. and wondered.. how the heck??

    Yep, and quite often they do have heart attacks during the act. Some really large people are warned against having sex (or other strenuous activity) by their doctors, for that very reason. LOL

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  55. "I wonder though, why they are waiting until next year to introduce this measure?

    Pippa " does this person NEVER think things through?? all changes to any scheme should give a "fair" amount of notice, dont try and put conspiracy theories to all changes introduced by the KC (after all isnt that JH job!). The KC have tried to introduced this policy for over 20 years but have never had the support of the vets in the past.

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  56. Anonymous of 01:49, can you read?
    I have not the faintest what might have happened to you friend´s friend´s mare. In what way did the stallion so injure her and what exactly would have gone better, if the mare had been tied up, held and roped? If the stallion downright attacked a mare in heat - is it good animal husbandry, as you see it, to breed from him?

    I can tell you what happened here a number of years ago. A pony mare was to be bred to a full-size stallion, since the demand for larger riding horses was greater and so were the prices one could ask for the foals. So mated she was, in the traditional way, tied up and prevented from kicking. Owners noticed consequences next day, when they realized that the funny thing hanging out from the vulva was the intestine, the ileum... as that large stallion had not only penetrated the vagina of the small mare, but disrupted it and there was now a free passage from the vaginal top to the abdominal cavity. Yeah, she had to be shot.
    Why pretend that restraint is "protection" ?
    Restraint is danger. The protection in this case, and as I understand it in all cases where horses are bred in such a manner, is protection of profit: you want to make absolutely sure that the mare is bred and the valuable stallion is not in the attempt. Bank account husbandry?
    I don´t have the slightest objection to people making money out of breeding good animals, and as I already stated, of course mating and birth should be supervised. Obviously, we choose the TYPE of mate - that´s the whole idea and history of animal breeding, isn´t it? Obviously, when inexperienced animals are involved, a bit of encouraging assistance should be provided when needed. So yes, we stood watching for an hour or two while our mare and the stud got acquainted. Yes, when the foal was born a bit suddenly, we ran to make sure they were both all right and yes, when the placenta failed to come out, we had the vet help the mare and give her a shot of penicillin to prevent lethal infection and yeah, we stayed up very late that night making sure the foal had learnt its way to the milk and the mother was well and comfortable. And NO-I would NEVER accept for her to be restrained! I would NEVER accept for anybody to hold a bitch down by force so my dog could mate her. It´s too risky, it´s too bad practice, it is biologically stupid and not just unethical. That makes me an ARA?

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  57. You want to know how my dogs mate? I turn the two of them out in the dog run and let them get on with it, keep an eye out from the kitchen window just to make sure they get a tie. It takes Archie about 90 seconds or less to get tied to a willing bitch, a bit longer if he has to chat up the bitch fist. He got tied to one visiting bitch before her owners had even got their coats off and sat down after a 400 mile trip to get here. Sandy is not quite as fast as Archie, he prefers to chat the bitch up first, but gets there within five or ten minutes
    If a bitch doesnt want to be mated, she doesnt get mated, I dont help. If she doesnt want to be mated, there is usually some good reason, either she wont make a good mother, or there is something wrong with the dog, or some incompatibility in the mating, or the owner has got the dates wrong
    Result, the matings are successful, ie they produce decent size litters, healthy puppies
    I have far more problems stopping my dogs from mating when I dont want a litter, than in getting a litter when I want one. Archie has been known to rip planks out of locked kennel doors, leave the house by an upstairs window, demolish dog crates, and open car doors to get at bitches. Isnt that the way we would prefer our healthy dogs to be?

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  58. Bestuvall says.....
    "....as for breathing heavily during "mating".. ever seen two really large people.. and wondered.. how the heck??...."

    The difference between bulldogs and large people is that large people have the ability to lose weight - the bulldog is trapped in the body that "we" gave him.... There's nothing he can do to change it - "we" have to do that for him and for the breed. End of story!

    I do find the fact that you take completely innocent remarks, twist them and re-hash under your own interpretation.....very trying indeed.

    There's no reason why the KC had to wait until 2012 to make changes to the C section rule. This could have been implemented in a short space of time - just like the close mating rule was implemented.

    I would also add that I think that 2 litters by C section is more than enough for any bitch. Any bitch that needs to whelp by C section should only have a maximum of 2 litters - for HER welfare. I would even go as far as to say that my own view is that one C section is enough. A bitch that cannot self-whelp should not be in any breeding programme as this is one of the most basic elements of survival.

    We have made the bulldog what it is today and this should never be considered acceptable. One of my neighbours owned a bulldog when I was growing up and it looked nothing like the dogs in that video. One of my neighbours owns a bulldog now and the dog is severely limited in what she can do. The bulldog from my childhood used to run around with us kids and play all day long during the holidays, but sadly this isn't the case with my neighbour's dog now. She has to restrict playtime with her children due to the dog's inability to breathe properly when excited.

    Dogs deserve more than this....

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  59. Thanks, dalriach! You just restored my belief that the majority of dog breeders are normal, reasonable people looking at a world I recognize ... :-)

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  60. Bodil, I'm just very old fashioned, grew up in a far distant world over sixty years ago, when gundogs still worked for their living, and got fed on biscuit and horsemeat and what ever their owners could shoot to feed them, and litters were culled back to the best six puppies because that way it was the best and strongest puppies that gew up and became the next generation of breeding stock, and it was considered cruel to let a bitch attempt to feed a litter of 12 puppies! And if dogs didnt mate naturally, enthusiastically and without help, one didnt breed from them. And vets had much the same ideas about how to breed healthy litters
    I'm glad we have all the modern knowledge about genetics to help in making informed choices about dog breeding, but sometimes I think there was more common sense around among dog breeders when I was a child

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  61. I find the video absolutely grotesque. Here in Austria during our judges' seminars we were told years ago that all breeds should be able to reproduce naturally.

    If I had to do anything similar with my PRTs I would balk.....I would not have that breed.

    My dogs act exactly the same as dalriach's do---and if a male does not want to mate a female, I figure he has some good reason and that's the end of it.

    Sometimes I hold the dogs as they can have a very long tie and, being a very active breed, they often do not have the patience to wait till it's over.

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  62. Bestuvall said:maybe I should have said LIE instead of die .. as that will surely be the case as well..want to force people underground to make sure they breed dogs that are unhealthy.. make a few more rules..and of course more regulations.. that should do it

    Yes, maybe you should, as you were blatantly lying when you made that statement. There is no doubt in my mind that some breeders would lie in order to continue to breed more unhealthy dogs, despite rules *for the betterment of the breed)being brought in.

    That says more about the breeders than anything else don't you think?

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  63. Sometimes I hold the dogs as they can have a very long tie and, being a very active breed, they often do not have the patience to wait till it's over.

    AFTER the tie. That's the key. Not in order to create a tie that the animals cannot or will not accomplish themselves.

    If a breeder wants to take hold of a dog or bitch by the collar while they are in a long tie, I accept THAT as protecting the dogs' health. It so often looks tedious -- the dogs' expressions will be "Ah hell, why did I think this would be such a great idea just a minute ago?" Of course a normal, healthy dog forgets that part in a few hours, or a few minutes for the very enthusiastic.

    I've not found it necessary. I just tell my own animal to stay if she starts moving. Three stud owners have also possessed this mysterious power. The morning mating can proceed while the humans have their coffee and toast, no free hand necessary, and then my bitch joins her mate du jour, and I join his owners and my hosts, for chores. We generally look to get a tie on each of three consecutive days, to be as sure as we can be of conception. I get a nice holiday on someone else's farm, and always learn something useful about farming to take home. They get a semi-skilled helper for a few days. Nobody has to masturbate a dog.

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  64. I have a question.. what do you do when using frozen semen.. or chilled semen.. how do you let the bitch "choose" in that case or all of you against using these methods?
    Do any of you use progesterone testing?
    Bestuvall.. the obstreperous one

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  65. The delay in the introduction of the 2 ceasar rule was I think to allow breeders and vets time to get ready. There would have been outcry if had been introduced overnight; what about the bitch who has had two caesars and was in pup again? The suspect the fear was that that breeder would go to caesar late (if required) risking the bitch and her pups. Of course, no decent breeder would think of putting their bitch in pup afer 2 caesars so here we have a piece of KC legislation which shouldn't even be required!
    As a vet I can see this rule will be even trickier than the reporting of conformation altering proceedures. Most practice management software doesn't have a box for KC name or number. Many vets share out of hours work or use dedicated out of hours practices so again geting the details may prove tough. We'll have to rely on breeder honesty and as said before the good breeders aren't putting their bitches through multiple caesars....only the bad ones.
    Why set the limit at 2 not one? I think it was thought that if a bitch had needed a casear because of one large pup, or a dead pup there was a good chance subsequent matings would result in a natural birth but 2 casears suggest she's not going to whelp naturally. Vets need to be helping owners make good decisions about subsequent matings; bitches with primary inertia should not be mated again for instance.
    Vicky P

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  66. "I would NEVER accept for anybody to hold a bitch down by force so my dog could mate her. It´s too risky, it´s too bad practice, it is biologically stupid and not just unethical. That makes me an ARA?"

    Then don't .. but stop telling others what they should do.. I am about 115 pounds.. When breeding two BT's in my backyard.. yes I am a "backyard breeder'(LOL) sometimes I NEED to use a bench and I make no apologies for it.. sometimes bitches come in and the owners have to leave.. sometimes I pick up the bitch for breeding.sometimes I am doing the breeding by myself...I will not risk injury to the dogs or myself.. and the bench is just another tool in my toolbox to accomplish what needs to be done..none one is forced.. if the bitch won't stand.. or the dog won't breed her.. then we wait.. test for progesterone and watch for signs of readiness. Even using the bench I have never been able to breed a bitch who was not willing.. or have a dog "force" himself on a bitch that was not ready.. the idea of "rape" is an human idea.. dogs are not raped.. even this bulldog breeding was not a forced breeding no matter how distasteful t you and yours..the "my breeding is better than your breeding" is very evident on this blog..good thing it is not a blog about parenting.
    Does it make you an ARA? that is up to you..to me ARA's are people who seem to know what every other person should do about pets..while actually hating both people and pets.. so no I don't think that is you according to what I read .. but them I don;t know you.. just as you do not know me..

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  67. "Nobody has to masturbate a dog."
    says Heather.. you are lucky to live so close to your chosen stud dogs.. or to have the bitches live so close to you that come for stud work.. you are lucky to have the days off from work to mosey about another farm doing chores if you need to be gone for a few days at a time.sound's very bucolic.Yet not all people have that luxury and yet they still want to breed dogs.. should they not do that? Do you ever use frozen semen?? chilled? If you do then someone had to "masturbate a dog".. also it is recommended by many stud dogs owners ( and repro vets) that the dog be "cleaned out' every so often to facilitate constant sperm production and of course to be tested once in awhile for production and quality. Would you want to fly your bitch to a stud dog.. or drive 14 hours and stay the prerequisite three days taking time off of work and find out the stud dogs sperm was .. gone!.. I wouldn't..I read that most of you are not breeders who do much reproductive testing.. preferring to "let nature take its course".. that is a good thing if it works for you.. it does not work for everyone.
    I suggest reading up on Dr. Robert Van Hutchinson works.. along with a couple of canine sperm bank site .. a good one is www.caninecryobank.com.
    The world of dog breeding is wide indeed for may breeds, encompassing almost every continent in the world.. Jemima.. would make a good topic.. does the use of frozen semen benefit the world of pure bred dogs?
    Bestuvall

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  68. Hi Vicky:
    you say:Why set the limit at 2 not one? I think it was thought that if a bitch had needed a casear because of one large pup, or a dead pup there was a good chance subsequent matings would result in a natural birth but 2 casears suggest she's not going to whelp naturally. Vets need to be helping owners make good decisions about subsequent matings; bitches with primary inertia should not be mated again for instance."

    you say that a bitch with primary inertia should not be bred again.. and then turn around and say the owner should work with the vet. I agree that owners should work with vets...and vice versa.. that means to me that they and their vets make the decision about a bitch with primary uterine inertia. Why should it be a topic here..better to say I would not breed a bitch again that displayed primary inertia.. your bitch.. your decision..along with you vet
    I feel the same way about sections.. this is something that should be decided by vet and owner.. not the KC or any "governing body". Every case is different.. we cannot box in breeders and vets by making them the "section police".
    The data should have been made known.. perhaps it has.. about what percentage of bitches have more than 2 sections over their lifetime.. and what the outcome was for the bitch and pups. If this has been done over a ten year period.. I would love to see the data.. Thanks if you have it for posting it here
    Bestuvall

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  69. "The bulldog from my childhood used to run around with us kids and play all day long during the holidays, but sadly this isn't the case with my neighbour's dog now. She has to restrict playtime with her children due to the dog's inability to breathe properly when excited.

    Dogs deserve more than this"



    you mean like this???
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSsOUOn3ywM or this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLclGPr7fj4

    if you cannot link to these go to youtube and look up Tillman the surfing skateboarding dog.. if nothing else it might bring some levity into this blog..
    Bestuvall

    not every bull dog is like your neighbors dog..

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  70. Dalriach, this is off topic, but where are you - in the UK? Do you have a website where you and your dogs can be found? I grew up in another distant world, but perhaps it wasn´t so different from yours. One of the first things I was taught was to respect animals - in the first place, their power and potential to cause harm, but also their right to have a decent life in return for the service they did. A man who beat up his horse or mistreated his dog was looked down upon.
    And yes, agree - if dog breeders had only had the common sense to breed what works well and lives long, dogs shouldn´t be themselves in this mess we´ve made for them.

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  71. Bodil, I'm in Scotland, I dont have a website, used to have one but got too many inquiries from people to whom I didnt want to sell dogs. Are you in Sweden? There are some of my dogs in Sweden, and most of the Irish Red and White Setters in Norway have my breeding behind them

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  72. Bestuvall:
    I think you know that Heather's "masturbation" comment wasn't based on AI. And yes, Tillman can ride a skateboard despite the shape of his face/skull. That doesn't change the fact that the breed as a whole has serious problems with breathing because of a phenotype selected by humans for no reason but whimsey.

    As far as your comment: "this is something that should be decided by vet and owner.. not the KC or any "governing body"..."

    Firstly, not allowing a dog to be registered with a KC is hardly infringing on your rights as a breeder. Secondly, it *was* left up to the owners and breeders and what we have is a bunch of dogs with serious structural issues. If you (the breeders of bulldogs) want the governing authorites to stay out of your breeding decisions, then I would suggest you take a long look at the dogs you are breeding and start making changes that will resolve these issues on your own.

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  73. Vicky P said.....Vets need to be helping owners make good decisions about subsequent matings; bitches with primary inertia should not be mated again for instance.
    Vicky P

    Bestuvall said......you say that a bitch with primary inertia should not be bred again.. and then turn around and say the owner should work with the vet.

    That's not what Vicky said Bustevall... you interpreted it wrong again! It was a suggestion that bitches with primary inertia shouldn't be bred again....

    If you would care to look at a previous post I said that my bitch was pre-mate (progesterone tested) and still refused to allow the stud dog to mate with her.

    We are not talking about frozen or chilled semen; we are talking about dogs being able to mate naturally.

    A dog riding a surfboard doesn't mean it can run around all day with kids.The surf board is doing the job his legs would do...

    Yes, all the bulldogs I have seen are the same as my neighbours although I saw some photographs last night of a very nice bulldog that was not as exaggerated as others and I will be asking the owner who bred it and if it was specifically bred to have a slightly longer face and less facial folds.

    I can see the decision of the KC re the 2 c-section rule being given, say, 4 months to come into play; bitches are in whelp but 9 weeks so even if a bitch was in whelp when it was announced she would have had the pups before the rule came into force. 2 years is far too long to wait because during that time more bitches will be sectioned. The same thinking supposedly surrounded the close mating rule and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think breeders were given a 6 month run-up.

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  74. Nobody has to masturbate a dog."

    says Heather.. you are lucky to live so close to your chosen stud dogs.

    Yes, central Oregon is so convenient to Pennsylvania. Easily reached in an hour or so by turnip truck.

    Which is beside the point. The distance the bitch travels has nothing to do with whether she is strapped down and treated as a piece of fancy, fertile meat.

    I suggest reading up on Dr. Robert Van Hutchinson works.

    The brilliant Herr Doktor Professor Hutchinson is our "local" repro specialist. He's currently furiously courting the custom of the burgeoning central Ohio puppymill market. Good times. He prolly doesn't mention that to the show fanciers who flock to him so they can extract yet another generation of hothouse flowers from unwilling canine flesh. Two highly objectionable professional activities in one! He'll not see a centavo of my cash.

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  75. Heather Houlahan said "....Yes, central Oregon is so convenient to Pennsylvania. Easily reached in an hour or so by turnip truck...."

    Loved this Heather!!!

    Heather also said "...The brilliant Herr Doktor Professor Hutchinson is our "local" repro specialist. He's currently furiously courting the custom of the burgeoning central Ohio puppymill market. Good times. He prolly doesn't mention that to the show fanciers who flock to him so they can extract yet another generation of hothouse flowers from unwilling canine flesh. Two highly objectionable professional activities in one! He'll not see a centavo of my cash...."

    Oh dear. That's very sad :-((

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  76. Anon 19.25 - Loved your post! You're exactly the type of caring, ethical, breeder i'm looking for with my next dog.

    The welfare of my dog is more important than puppies!

    I wish all breeders were the same. While i'm sure a great majority ARE, there does appear to be a few here that clearly do not care or want to acknowledge the welfare of the bitch. They want those puppies and that's all that matters!

    Louise

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  77. so Heather.. I see you do have the time and the ever important money to travel to breed your dogs..I guess then you do not use frozen semen.. or chilled.. as you are able to travel wherever you need to go in order to complete your breeding program..... Lucky you..
    I also see that Dr Hutchinson is not your favorite person.. well he is one of mine.. I would not have had my foundation bitch without his help.. perhaps you think that then I should not have had my foundation bitch but I am forever grateful to him for my wonderful girl.
    I see you too have fallen into the trap of Godwins law.. "Herr Doktor"// Really Heather??
    Those of you who read this and think Dr Hutchinson is some sort of money grubbing Nazi like monster..think again.. He is a well respected veterinarian who is highly educated in his field as well as many other aspects of veterinarian medicine.. he shoud not be trashed on a blog like this.. although he does have a good sense of humor and would "prolly" think it pretty funny..
    "unwilling canine flash".. LOL..We should all be so lucky as to have a caring "Herr Doktor" like Dr.Hutch and his wonderful staff as our "local" resource.
    Thanks Dr Hutch..
    Bestuvall

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  78. Bestuvall:
    I think you know that Heather's "masturbation" comment wasn't based on AI.


    >> Really then what was it based upon.. no one has to masturbate a dog UNLESS they are doing an AI I didn't read that in her statement.... why else would you do that? Well maybe you would to check a dogs sperm count or semen quality.. or is that just too much for most of you?..actually putting your hands on your dogs "privates"..

    And yes, Tillman can ride a skateboard despite the shape of his face/skull. That doesn't change the fact that the breed as a whole has serious problems with breathing because of a phenotype selected by humans for no reason but whimsey.

    >> there are many dogs like Tillman. He is not the only Bull dog who lives a normal life.. although what he does is probably not normal for any dog.. You have to admit.. he is fit.. and full of himself.. and pretty darn cute on that board..or maybe the doom and gloom people here will say he will die soon..

    As far as your comment: "this is something that should be decided by vet and owner.. not the KC or any "governing body"..."

    Firstly, not allowing a dog to be registered with a KC is hardly infringing on your rights as a breeder. Secondly, it *was* left up to the owners and breeders and what we have is a bunch of dogs with serious structural issues. If you (the breeders of bulldogs) want the governing authorites to stay out of your breeding decisions, then I would suggest you take a long look at the dogs you are breeding and start making changes that will resolve these issues on your own.

    >> really? so if the KC says NO to registrations..you think people will stop breeding what you call exaggerated Bulldogs.. nope. they will do it.. only now they will do it underground or without any need for "paperwork".. you are correct.. it will not infringe upon their rights.. it will take their rights to the streets where they will be no supervision.. and more unhealthy dogs of all breeds.. we are not just talking about bulldogs.. we are talking many other breeds as well.EDUCATION and SUPPORT is what works.. not rules and regulations that cut off communication with the very people that should be involved..

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  79. I think the point, Bestuvall, if if companion dogs were selected from stock that were able to whelp naturally and with ease, then there wouldn't be a need for such a vet speciality. Should you let your bitch die if she struggles giving birth? Of course not, but you shouldn't breed her and you should think long and hard about breeding her offspring. To have a dog who has difficulty with conception or birth as you "foundation bitch" is worrisome.

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  80. Anonymous of 18.15, for crying out loud! Why should "you and yours" - meaning, I guess, myself and some unidentified others I don´t know - find it distasteful to touch the genitals of an animal, particularly? Do you think dog breeders are the only ones ever to have assisted at a birth, human or animal?

    I don´t think that the bulldogs shown in the video were treated in a cruel or distasteful or objectionable way - possibly the pair seemed to be a bit lacking in enthiasm and drive, if I may say so. I do think that putting a whole breed of animals into a state where assistance by hands "is the only way they could do it" (as the breeder says) and assistance by scalpel is the common way they for them to give birth is cruel, distasteful and objectionable.

    I also think it´s stupid. Bulldog breeders would have less handiwork and more puppies, if their dogs were allowed back to being dogs again.

    Bijou makes an interesting comment when she says that it´s all market forces, the brachy breeds are what people want to buy and therefore what breeders aim to sell. So buyers should be educated. Is not this very close to saying that the public is educable by reason and ethics, dog breeders only by their wallet?
    Hope to god she´s wrong...

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  81. I am sure Dr Hutch is lovely and has helped many people's dogs have puppies - but I question the whole idea of repro vets. Repro vets are rare here in the UK where the prevailing view is that if dogs cannot reproduce without help then they shouldn't be reproducing. I hope that doesn't change (although fear it will) Just to read the list of drugs that Dr Hutch routine uses to, eg, induce oestrus, makes me very uncomfortable.

    Jemima

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  82. maybe you should contact him.you can reach him here:

    Animal Clinic Northview
    36400 Center Ridge Road
    North Ridgeville, OH 44039
    Ph: 440.327.8282 Fax: 440.353.0331
    Emergencies: 440.452.7743
    Email: repro@northviewvet.com

    . and tell him about your concerns. Dr Hutchison is a Board Certified Theriogenolgist.. something I doubt very much if anyone here has accomplished or ever will..

    "Dr. Robert Van Hutchison is well known and respected in the show-dog community. As one of the world's leading experts in canine reproduction, he is recognized internationally for his work with canine frozen semen and reproduction.

    Dr Hutchison is regularly featured as a speaker at national specialties and dog club events throughout the country. He is the director of Animal Clinic Northview, Inc., and is director of the International Canine Semen Bank of Ohio. He is a reproduction consultant for the Veterinary Information Network as well as for several veterinary colleges.


    "Dr Hutchison has authored numerous articles on canine reproduction and various breed journals and magazines, has appeared on television, and lectured internationally on reproduction, whelping, pediatric, and canine/feline infertility.".. from his bio



    Lovely is not the word I would use.. EDUCATED far beyond most people here on this forum is..

    YOU, Jemima, question the "whole idea" of theriogenolgy.. ?? This is more ignorant that I thought possible.
    This science does not just "help peoples dogs have puppies" but why explain it here...it is shocking to think that a person who runs a blog and makes "movies" about dogs could wish that a science so important not be used to benefit dogs.

    Just in case you did not know...

    Theriogenology is the branch of veterinary medicine concerned with reproduction, including the physiology and pathology of male and female reproductive systems of animals and the clinical practice of veterinary obstetrics, gynecology, and andrology. Theriogenologists are veterinarians with advanced training in animal reproduction and obstetrics. Most are board-certified by the American College of Theriogenologists.
    bestuvall

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  83. "To have a dog who has difficulty with conception or birth as you "foundation bitch" is worrisome. "
    says Beth
    Hmm did I say she had any problem with conception or birth? I don't see that in any of my posts What I did say is that Dr. Hutch helped me with my foundation bitch and I would not have her without him .. that's all ..so you see those that accuse others of word twisting do it themselves. "Worrisome?".. to whom? to you? Don't worry Beth.. she whelped a letter naturally of lovely puppies, died at the ripe old age of almost 15 was never ill and had a wonderful life.. oh and yes she was a Champion show dog as well. as a post note all of the dogs in her litter are still alive and reaching 12 years old.. she has many wonderful and healthy dogs that have continued in her path.. and I hope for many more.. but thanks for worrying..just no need
    Bestuvall

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  84. Repro vets here in the states I primarily use for AI related stuff which is a fantastic tool since often the best stud available for a particular bitch isn't the one down the street or within the county but rather the one on the other side of the country.

    I imagine repro vets in the UK are rarer because unless you're doing overseas AI the dog you want to use is at least within a reasonable range of distance.

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  85. Jemima. the actual reproduction of puppies is not the only thing a theriogenologist does... surely you realize that.. don't you.. as for the prevailing view.. there was time when people thought the earth was flat and the moon was made of green cheese.. but those days are over.. aren't they?
    Meanwhile can you give us a list of those drugs that Dr Hutch "routine uses"? I have been to his clinic and found very little "routine" except the highest standard of care for all of his clients.
    Although we write about dogs here ( with the occasional horse thrown in) reproductive science influences all of the world of animals. How do you think we keep some species from extinction or from being endangered..
    To imagine that reproductive science or any science does not advance in order to maintain the status quo or even worse to revert to a day when breeding dogs was just going to the neighbors dog or turning your bitch in season loose is detrimental not only to dogs.. but to the world at large.
    Your fear of change is my expectation and hope for the future.
    Bestuvall

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  86. Bestuvall, I'd say there are many who don't share your view that such high tech intervention with the reproduction of domesticated species is for their benefit. It is most certainly for our benefit. One exception would be the use of A1 to facilitate low COI, but then that should only be used on parents who have previously reproduced normally IMO.

    Rather worryingly the use of repro vets in the UK is becoming more common and A1 is used routinely for some breeds that would not usually be seen to be 'difficult.'

    We certainly managed well is bygone years without this, general vets are well equipped to care for the welfare of individuals and any further intervention is just for human benefit.

    Endangered species, I know one researcher in this field who believes intervention in reproduction is doing only harm here too. One county in particular is employing it in an attempt to draw attention away from the massive habitat destruction that is the real reason for species depletion.

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  87. You might all be interested to know that the Swiss are trying to (re)create a politically correct Bulldog, i.e. : http://www.continental-bulldogs.ch/standard-e.htm They will probably ask for this "new" breed to be registered officially by the FCI in due course (as they also did for the White Sheepdog). There will therefore soon be an alternative, at least on the Continent, to the English Bulldog for those people who prefer them with longer legs, noses, etc...

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  88. "One exception would be the use of A1 to facilitate low COI, but then that should only be used on parents who have previously reproduced normally IMO."

    so let's take this example..
    you want to breed to a dog from .. say Australia.. .. you live in Romania..in order to reduce your COI. Neither dog nor bitch has produced a litter naturally but both have been fully health tested. so should you breed your bitch to the dog next door and have the Aussie dog bred to the bitch next door in order to fulfill your idea of natural reproduction. That makes no sense to me at all,but then I seem have a much broader view of the world than most of you. We managed well in "bygone years' with out vaccines, antibiotics and even aspirin.. perhaps we should go back to that day and age as well.
    I don't expect any of you to share my view about the use of science to improve the health and welfare of dogs. If you do not believe in the advancement of science.. then don't utilize it.
    But really can you prove that a whole country is employing using reproduction of endangered species as a "cover up" for something else and even if it were true does that mean that it should be stopped everywhere?
    Bestuvall

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  89. No Bestuvall, of course not all science is wrong or harmful but we do need to know where to draw the line when manipulating other species.

    And no I wouldn't say artificial reproduction should be stopped entirely for endangered species. If there was a case where very few remained in a population, and here's the crux - *used as a temporary measure* it could be beneficial to repopulate into a suitable habitat if that existed. But no, definitely not to keep a species going for zoos and circuses, if there were so little natural habitat left that a wild population wouldn't be sustainable.

    Your Aussie/Romania question. I would hope that there was an alternative to the dog next door. That's a very strange situation, I'm not sure it would arise often enough to make a difference. We are after all talking about the trend in pedigree dog breeding. The increasing use of artificial reproduction methods and how it could affect the population as a whole.

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  90. to Jackie:

    that is an interesting term "politically correct Bulldog".

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  91. Bestuvall, You really are a master of deliberate misunderstanding. No one, and I mean NO ONE, posting on this blog is against *using science to improve the health and welfare of dogs*. What people are objecting to is using science to allow dogs to reproduce, when those dogs are not fit enough, or do not have the appropriate body conformation or instincts, to reproduce naturally. I am a big fan of science, but I am also a big fan of nature, and I believe it is wrong to create dog breeds that are so UNNATURAL they cannot reproduce without extensive medical interventions. Do you disagree?

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  92. Dear Bestuvall, you certainly have a broad view of yourself. As to the world, I don´t know.

    The American College of Theriogenology is - as far as I can make out - a comparatively small private group of veterinarians specializing in animal reproduction. The group has the company Monsanto as its only sponsor, and while I´m a little surprised that vets working in what is not the least lucrative of fields should need a sponsor at all, I´m not surprised it should be Monsanto. Monsanto, after all, is not only the world´s largest producer of GMO seed, possibly the world´s most aggressive patent-rights protector - you know they sue farmers who have had their fields contaminated with GMO plants? But also, by sheer coincidence, they happen to be the largest producer of bovine GH hormone - all for the good of cattle, you see. Advancement of science. In 2008,Montsano were trying to sue dairies who did NOT use growth hormone on their cows in order to keep them from advertising that fact to the public.
    I do wonder now whether the company manufactures other hormones as well - would you happen to know, Bestuvall?
    Advancement of science, indeed! Never occurred to you that a lot depends on in which hands the knowledge is gathered and to what purpose it is used?

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  93. "Bestuvall, You really are a master of deliberate misunderstanding."

    Indeed.

    When you say "Dr. Hutch helped me with my foundation bitch and I would not have her without him" with Dr. Hutch being a reproduction specialist, its a logical conclusion that your dog needed the help of a repro vet to conceive or whelp. If you meant something different, well, either you are deliberately baiting or being obtuse.

    "What people are objecting to is using science to allow dogs to reproduce, when those dogs are not fit enough, or do not have the appropriate body conformation or instincts, to reproduce naturally."

    Yes. And surely even you, Bestuvall, can't have an issue with this.

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  94. Beth.. ever think I might have bought my foundation bitch from Dr Hutch? ever think I might have called him on the phone for advice and he gave it to about when to breed my dog.. ever think that maybe he ran a series of progesterone test so I would know when to breed her naturally? Do none of you use progesterone tests? Repro vets do more than inseminations you know. Conclusion are jumped to very readily on this blog.
    Romany Dog.. I guess we differ on what is "extensive'.. Helping a dog to mate or using science to determine when to mate to me is not extensive.. I used a surgical insemination to produce my last litter.. progesterone tested up to the time of the insemination.. had frozen semen shipped in from a dog I was wanting to use. He is no longer viable to collect.. ultra sounded at 28 days .. xrayed at 58.. along with another ultrasound to check viability of pups.. bitch whelped naturally at home. A successful venture that used LOTS of science.... my choice.. my dog..this would have been impossible 15 years ago.. were we better off then.. or now? I say now but I am betting most here will disagree.. by the way it was her first litter.. so she had never been bred naturally..should i have bred her to any dog just to "prove her".. or is it better to pick the BEST dog for her?
    Bestuvall

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  95. But no, definitely not to keep a species going for zoos and circuses, if there were so little natural habitat left that a wild population wouldn't be sustainable.

    hmm off topic.. but to be clear you are saying that a species should be allowed to become extinct if there is no "wild" area for it to populate? Interesting..

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  96. Bodil Carlsson, thank you for your eye-opening post!

    Revealing to know what is behind the scenes.

    "a lot depends on in which hands the knowledge is gathered and to what purpose it is used"

    So true!

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  97. Bestuvall said.... there was time when people thought the earth was flat and the moon was made of green cheese.. but those days are over.. aren't they?

    Yes, there was a time when people thought that pedigree dogs were healthy - and beautiful - at the same time.....but those days are over...aren't they?

    I have used progesterone testing and I reiterated that when you asked previously if anybody had used progesterone testing....sigh...

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  98. sorry I do not cling to every statement in every post. Why would you ever use progesterone testing.. the wicked vehicle of the "repro vet".. LOL

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  99. Actually it was my own vet and there are plenty of breeders that use progesterone testing here in the UK. Sadly my bitch did not take and I made the choice that if she had problems conceiving then this wasn't a good sign and it would be better to have her speyed.

    Progesterone testing is purely to ensure that the bitch is at ovulation and is more reliable that the pre-mate test. Nothing wrong with that but I wouldn't have gone down the avenue of hormone injections and the like because I feel that if a bitch cannot mate and whelp naturally then this is not a good thing for the breed - any breed.... I am not against breeders or breeding - nor am I against you using a repro vet - where did I say that?

    Once more you are making assumptions! I believe in using science for good - not to make my bitch become pregnant when she can't do it naturally. I shouldn't be shot down for having those beliefs; it doesn't make me a bad person.

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  100. I used a surgical insemination to produce my last litter.. progesterone tested up to the time of the insemination.. had frozen semen shipped in from a dog I was wanting to use. He is no longer viable to collect.. ultra sounded at 28 days .. xrayed at 58.. along with another ultrasound to check viability of pups.. bitch whelped naturally at home. A successful venture that used LOTS of science.

    And yet I'm somehow a privileged snob because I've taken the time to travel in order to (a) meet an intended stud in person (seeing him work his own stock, interact with his own family, etc.); and (b) ensure a natural, uncoerced, unassisted mating (including -- gasp -- ethologically normal courtship and the option of mate choice) as an integral part of conserving the breed's ability to "make more like this" without glugging down the drain of reproductive incompetence.

    It kind of reminds me of how rednecks who want protected wilderness opened up to be shredded by their $15,000 ATVs call hikers who do not "elitists" for wanting to walk in the quiet on their own two feet.

    The legal right to pursue all sorts of "options" in animal husbandry does not come with an attendant exemption from all value judgments by others for one's choices, nor the unassailable assumption that all that is done to extract offspring is done "for the sake of the dogs."

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  101. Heather.. I did not say you were a privileged snob.. I said you are lucky to have had the time and money to travel where others may not have that luxury and still want to breed their dog.

    I will let your statement regarding rednecks and "quiet walkers" stand for what it is.. a snobbish remark.. ever think that some hikers might need assistance to see and enjoy the wilderness. you know ones that don't have "their own two feet".

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  102. Ah, of course. Rejecting the notion that sloth and yahooism are ethically equivalent to the preservation of wilderness values immediately becomes an attempt to beat up the disabled.

    Naturally.

    Interesting parallels to the deliberate propagation of dogs who are handicapped by tragic birth defects -- err, sorry, "fancy traits" -- while claiming to "love" such animals.

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  103. What the comments on this thread have demonstrated to me is the extraordinary control-freakery demonstrated by some dog owners, in the name of 'caring' for their dogs.

    Get a dog. Breeding it? No? OK. Cut its balls off, cut its womb out. Cut its tail off, cuts its thumbs off. All in the name of 'care'.

    Get a dog. Breeding it? Yes? OK. Cut its tail off, cuts its thumbs off. Deny it access to mates of its choice. I mean, you might end up with MONGREL PUPPIES and then you'd have to kill them. Choose a mate for your hound. Tie the bitch down. Stick the dog's cock into the bitch's vagina. Hold them while tied. Cut the bitch open to get the puppies out, and if any of the puppies came a cropper because of your creepy obsession with 'blood purity', put them in a freezer.

    Sick, weird and very very wrong.

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  104. If you really love your dog you will love it the way he is...
    Nice post...

    Newfoundland dogs

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  105. I don't know a single responsible, ethical breeder who "just puts bitch and dog in the same room to let nature take it's course." And this is across ALL breeds. It's not about forcing an unready bitch into breeding, it's not about guiding the penis into the vagina, and it's not about holding anyone in place. Think of it as human acting as 'spotters." Both males and females can (and do) seriously injure themselves during mating, and that is why people supervise and "assist." Responsible breeders take no risks with their animals, and anyone too squeamish to be present and involved if need be have no business breeding in the first place.

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  106. PS, this guy is a classic puppy miller. He isn't breeding naturally because it's the right thing to do, or what he is breeding toward. He breeds naturally to save money, all while still charging $2500-$3000 to customers he doesn't even bother to screen or sell on limited registrations.

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  107. I thought I recognized the video, and when I tried to post a comment about the dogs barely being able to breathe, it turned out I had been blocked by the uploader.

    Seems I did see the video before, and wrote something he didn't want to hear...

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  108. I've kept bulldogs for years (and I've had my share of other pedigree and mixed breeds too) and I have to say that the breed has become the whipping boy for genetic problems in pedigree dogs. All my bulldogs can run, jump, play etc with NO DIFFICULTIES AT ALL. Yes, they snort a bit when winded (after a few laps of our half acre paddock) but this is just bulldog panting and is no different from other dogs panting from exertion and/or heat. I'd like to see how many of you critics could run around our field and not pant or snort a bit!!

    As far as health problems go, we've had one bulldog with cherry eye (repaired by surgery with no recurrence) and another who had a bit of a sensitive tummy and needed a more expensive diet to avoid gas and diarrhea. We knew when taking the breed on that we might well end up out of pocket with vets bills etc but I would say this is true of MOST pedigree dogs. Our dogs are happy, healthy and fabulous characters. Most true bulldog lovers will tell you that it's the dog's indominatable spirit and unique personality and character that they love most.

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  109. http://celticpride-bulldogs.co.uk/Health%20introduction%201.htm
    Awe the outspoken bulldog breeder mentioned PDE!

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