This sequence never made it into Pedigree Dogs Exposed: Three Years On which was broadcast in 2012.
The reason? There was a lot of great material vying for the space and it wasn't as strong as other sequences. But it seems timely to release it, for three reasons.
The first is, obviously, that GSDs are in the news following Crufts 2016.
The second is that it captures rather neatly the prevailing view from within the breed that outside critics are ignorant.
And the third is that I hear that GSD breeder David Payne, featured here (Videx GSDs), bans people from one GSD forum he helps administrate if they so much as mention my name.
The first is, obviously, that GSDs are in the news following Crufts 2016.
The second is that it captures rather neatly the prevailing view from within the breed that outside critics are ignorant.
And the third is that I hear that GSD breeder David Payne, featured here (Videx GSDs), bans people from one GSD forum he helps administrate if they so much as mention my name.
As you can see, though, he was perfectly happy to be interviewed for the sequel (indeed it was quite a fun, sparky interview) and he was much meaner to me than I was to him...
So, haven't they made great progress (not) in the intervening years to address the problems he smilingly 'admits' to. All smoke and mirrors, and the good old KC fall for it every time.
ReplyDeleteHis arrogance and patronising attitude is sickening. Horrible man.
ReplyDeleteThis breeder (Payne) lashed out at you in a defensive manner with the classic logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem; attacking a person instead of their position. He basically was saying that someone like him knows what is right, and someone like you doesn't, just because of who and what you are, i.e. a non purebred GSD breeder. That is a foolish statement, because as you showed, there is reason to believe that altering the canid body plan in this way causes unhealthy deformity, and not merely an aesthetic difference. Therefore it should not be done ... and that's something anyone can understand.
ReplyDeleteALMOST 4 HOURS OF FILMING AN INTERVIEW WITH ME - AND YOU GET HOW MUCH ON HERE IN JH VIDEO - A FEW SECONDS. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE VIDEO DID NOT SUIT JH SENSATIONALISM. IGNORANCE OF THE GSD BREED IS DEMONSTRATED ON A COLOSSAL SCALE, MAINLY BY PEOPLE IN OTHER BREEDS OR NO BREEDS. THOSE IN OTHER BREEDS USE THE CRITICISM OF THE GSD TO DETRACT FROM THEIR OWN BREEDS MORE SERIOUS HEALTH PROBLEMS. THERE CAN BE NO DOUBTS THAT THE GSD IS FUNDAMENTALLY A VERY HEALTHY BREED. LOOK AT THE FULL HEALTH ISSUES "NOT" JUST CONFORMATIONAL DISLIKES. SELECTIVE REPORTS BY JH ON SUCH CONFORMATIONAL ASPECTS CAUSING ILL HEALTH ARE JUST THAT "SELECTIVE" AND SENSATIONAL TO SUIT HER CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE GSD. READ THE ABOMNABLE CANCER PROBLEMS IN HER OWN BREED OF CHOICE "FLAT COATED RETRIEVERS" AND THEY HAVE NUMEROUS OTHER GRAVE HEALTH PROBLEMS INCLUDING A DEADLY KIDNEY DISEASE WHICH AFFECTS ALMOST 100% - LARGELY UNDETECTED BECAUSE THOSE THAT DIE HAVE LESS THAN 50% OF KIDNEY FUNCTION. AS WE KNOW EVEN HUMANS CAN LIVE WITH ONE KIDNEY.
DeleteYikes... do stop shouting Mr Payne.
DeleteNot quite sure why you would presume that I would be protective about my 'own' breed? I assure you most people in flatcoats feel the same way about me as you do for highlighting the problems in the breed. Cancer is a truly enormous problem in Flatcoats (and actually the reason why I would never get another Flattie pup). Kidney disease is also an issue in the breed and needs monitoring very carefully but the DNA test that identified almost all Flatcoats as having it has been widely discredited and, to date, only a small number of dogs have died of it.
I appreciated you inviting me to your home David (slightly sad that you didn't let us film your dogs but I can understand). And I really did listen to everything you said.
Bottom line though, you did nothing to convince me that the type you like is either correct or good - but accept there is still not enough evidence to call it.
I hope you will volunteer your dogs for the University of Surrey research which aims to explore the issue in some detail.
We do already know from Dr Fischer's locomotion study that the showline build is less efficient/more costly in terms of energy, but I accept that at that moment there is no proven serious cost the dog.
Hopefully, that's what the Surrey study (and I believe there's another one in Germany in the offing) will be able to show one way or the other.
Tragedy is the KC are still repeating exactly the same lines with little or no result.
ReplyDeleteWhat they're doing about it is sticking their fingers in their ears and going, "LALALALALALA can't hear youuuuuu!" Apparently.
ReplyDeleteDon't know what's worse seeing these poor crippled GSD's hobbling round with back legs that could knit a jumper OR seeing how stressed the dog is in the show ring.
ReplyDeleteI see from Dog World that the KC is launching an online Acadamy for breed information and KCAI training. It states 'Led by the KC's Training Board . . . promises consistent and high quality standards of education and training in every activity.' You notice the statement 'high standards.' Breeders of the 'ilk' shown above will probably go on line, follow the KC instructions on what they beleive to be good breeding practice and then declare themselves a KC examined good breeder. What a fallacy. I suppose the KC has to conceded it is not an awarding body, so this is the best they can come up with. It's what I have always said, their exams and training are like doing a postal course (which of course gives no 'clout' at all)and is about as useful as a chocolate teapot. Ask any of the known awarding bodies whether they would accept this. the polite answers would be interesting. All breeders need to put some proper science behind wht they are doing and that means going out of the KC and doing it under a proper awarding body.
ReplyDeleteYou can tell there is no hope for the GSD, just the smug I know better than you attitude which prevailed then and prevails now gives a very clear message.
ReplyDeletePayne looked smug and self satisfied, Hannan looked shifty and uncomfortable. Jaw dropping stuff
ReplyDeleteIt seems that nobody in the show world or the KC is capable of answering a direct question any more. That judge made my blood boil. I wish he'd been made to go through the breed stadard, word by word, with his BOB and a good example of a working-lines GSD side by side. He may have had himself something of an Epiphany.....
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that these breed standards are unscientific, and following them is like a religion; you accept and defend them on faith. How else can you explain breeders and judges completely failing to see how dogs like the GSD, English bulldog, Great Dane and many others have been completely ruined when compared to their ancestors, other types of dogs, and wild canids. They're blind to objective reality because of these awful standards. What do you mean these crippled GSDs are "more correct" than working dogs? They can barely move! It's just ridiculous and disgusting.
DeletePeople base their identities on particular beliefs and ways of doing things. Therefore, it takes incredible self-awareness and character strength to admit what they once believed and held dear is wrong. If you've bred sloped-backed GSDs because you believe this is the correct conformation and have this ideal consistently reinforced by your peers, then it takes a huge amount of self-awareness to take a step back and realise the detrimental impact you're having and that what you see isn't what outsiders see. This is especially so when the effects haven't happened overnight but have been the cumulation of breeding this way for decades.
ReplyDeleteThis is compounded by the fact that people are prone to confirmation bias - they only look for values and opinions that complement their current beliefs. We know from politics that criticising these beliefs only reinforces them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement_theory
Agreed. Any thoughts on how to get through to them?
DeleteMy thoughts are moving towards conflict resolution, based on what needs people are trying to meet through their actions. Coming from the premise that all human actions are an attempt to meet universal human needs, by identifying what these needs are we cam choose more helpful strategies for meeting them. https://www.cnvc.org/[ogname]/how-does-nonviolent-communication-differ-other-types-conflict-resolution-jeff-brown
DeleteMy guess is that belonging is one of these needs. Dog shows are like a club and the breeders/handlers get their need for belonging met by being in this club. Belonging has a strong survival component due to there being safety in numbers - until very recently, being outcast from a group meant certain death for that person. Whatever our thoughts and opinions are about this in modern times, our brains are still hard-wired for survival and, therefore, the need to belong.
Harmony among your peers is probably another need. For many people breeding and showing is a hobby and they want to enjoy it, not spend their weekends arguing with other breeders/handlers over the practicalities of genetic diversity.
Thank you for your thoughtful input on this thorny issue, Fran.
DeleteGSDs came into being in an unusual way. Most breeds are standardised forms of an exsiting type, that evolved to perform a fairly specific function. They either remained as types (with some healthy variation within the gene pool) or were 'discovered' (nooooooo!) by enthusiasts who wished to show them and became recognised breeds. If they were lucky, they remained true to their working roots and maintained a following of owners who wished to work them. If they were unlucky, they became a parody of their former selves as the show ring took over. The GSD was created from a range of working shepherd dogs in Germany and came to prominece after WW1, when it was used as a working dog of a very different kind. I don't want to appear an iconoclast, but wasn't old VS a tiny bit arrogant in thinking he could create the ultimate 'working dog' that could turn his paw to anything and breed an animal that would breed true-to-type? Add to that the more exacting standards of the show fraternity, whose idea of 'breed type' evolves with the whims of the in-crowd every few decades and no wonder the breed is in a pickle. Personally, I don't think GSDs should ever have set paw in a show ring. I don't think it has done them any favours at all. It's difficult enough for a breed with a clear, defined function to stay true to its working roots, let alone an animal that was created to be 'jack of all trades'.
ReplyDeleteI think the idea VS had was quite sound as it was based on working ability and the form to fulfil it. It was not created as a fad, far from it, and as a breed it is hugely successful in a variety of areas, just as he wanted it to be. It is only the 'beauty pageant' aspect of showing that has reduced it to where it is now.
DeleteAnonymous 9:20. What a fabulous idea, to have Terry Hannon point out on the actual dog how it meets all the salient points of the breed standard. That I would pay to see.
ReplyDeleteHi Anon 17:59, it's Anon 9:20 here!Incidentally, I'm also Anon 14:02...I used to handle GSDs in the show ring 25 years ago, when there was much consternation at the emergence of the 'banana-backs' and a hard core of banana-lovers. There was also a dedicated band of folk who favoured a stumpy-legged, long-backed animal that looked like a giant corgi and a group in the middle, who refered to their dogs as 'middle of the road'. Each faction knew which judges prefered their type and showed accordingly. As a 20 year old, I spent hours reading and re-reading the breed standard and wondering how it could be applied to all three types! The kennel I helped out at did breed dogs that used German lines but these were, according to the breeders, more established, working German lines and nothing like the dogs with the roach backs and excessive angulation. After a few years, I packed in because the whole thing was getting farcical. As a handler, I spent a long time practicing and standing the dogs. I was told by 2 professional handlers that my handling was excellent and I'd got a real bond with the dogs (this handling was very different from flying round with the dog pulling out ahead on a long lead)but as I hadn't 'come up through the ranks' i.e. been a Junior Handler, my face wasn't known and I'd be lucky to be picked by the judge. I was also told I needed longer legs, because I would look better when I ran (surely the judge should have been looking at the dog?)Amazingly, both pros then persuaded the breeders to let them handle in the ring, but leave all the preparation and training to me! So, the show GSD world has been a farce for over 20 years and the Kennel Club have let them get away with it.
ReplyDeleteI grew up with GSDs and they taught me my first lessons in training. They bore no resemblence to the ataxic, roach-backed dogs shuffling round the show ring on their hocks.
ReplyDeleteI fear we may see many more dogs of all types suffering before showing dies of its own accord.
Entries are falling and we need campaigns as strong as those that are aiming to end puppy farming to dissuade people wanting pets from patronising such breeders and taking their rejects.
I wonder what would happen if dog shows were banned as of now. Maybe that is the only answer.
DeleteMaybe I'm being too much of an idealist, but I don't believe an outright ban on dog shows would solve anything. Who is to stop a group of breeders forming a club and holding shows? I do believe there are some breeds of dog that are just not suited to dog shows and should never be bred for the show ring and I include GSDs in that group. I would rather see them bred as working / sports dogs and sold only to appropriate homes, rather than the confusing array of GSDs we see today: the exaggerated show dogs; the slightly less exaggerated show dogs; the high-drive working lines that really only belong in experienced hands; the dogs being bred purposefully for unusual colours and long coats as a unique sales point (which to my mind is every bit as unethical as breeding only for the show ring)
ReplyDeleteThe Kennel Club and many dog owners and breeders seem to have learned nothing from the story of the GSD. What % of pups end up rehomed before they reach 2 years old? I bet its a frightening figure!
Yet, the show community are still bringing in breeds with a strong working heritage and pushing for full KC registration, so they can show them! Why not just leave them in their country of origin to do the job they were supposed to do?
Look at the Weimeraner and more lately, the Vizla. In the shooting world, they are very much niche breeds and those who do work them seriously tend to look abroad for their dogs anyway. In reality, the way we shoot in the UK means these dogs don't really fit in terribly well, so they are never going to have a big following amongst working dog people.
I think it is time the Kennel Club closed the Import Register and focussed on lessening the exaggerations in the breeds we already have in the show ring. If people wish to import or breed working-lines dogs for sport or competition, they can do so via the Activities Register.
Well the argument "what's to stop people forming clubs and having shows" is a bit weak... its rather like saying "whats to stop dogfighters forming clubs and having dog fights if we ban dogfighting?" Obviously assuming it was enforced, the law and the police would stop the illegal shows.
DeleteIf it was illegal to show dogs, less people would want purebred dogs as there wouldn't be the status attached to them any more of "my dog is from a champion bloodline" or any such nonsense. More people would opt for healthier hybrids or mix breeds. This can only be a good thing.
The few shady people that keep breeding for show and having underground dog shows will be thought of in a negative light and the whole ideology behind the dog show and the purebred will eventually crumble. We will still have specific breeds, they just won't be held on a pedestal as they currently are, and people won't be afraid to outcross them for health.
Well 2021 just about over,Sadly nothing appears to have changed regarding the gsd what can only be asphetics over function.breaks my heart,been around and owned this fabulous breed for 55 years.my current bitch I had to travel overseas to get what I and many regard as a true gsd.shame on Kennel club and crufts
ReplyDelete