Here are some more pix of Mabel, taken in the past few days. As you can see, her topline looks much better now. She has also filled out a bit, but is still a leggier, more athletic-looking Bulldog than you tend to see in the showring; she also has a longer muzzle and a smaller nose-roll than many, good clear eyes and wide open nostrils. The sum total results in a very active dog that can and does race about without suffering on even a warm day.
I'd be interested to hear what the show-breeders think of Mabel now. Would she have a fighting chance in the show-ring today?
Let's give Mabel's breed standard a chance.
ReplyDeleteMost likely, your request for breeder input will be ignored. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
ReplyDeleteWell I hope not.. I am genuinely interested in their opinion.
DeleteJemima
I think you will have to seek them privately, face-to-face. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
DeleteI like her lighter build and overall athleticism. The back still concerns me, but of course I'm not very much aware of bulldog conformation and someone may offer an argument as to why it might be structurally sound in her case. Even so, I would think it would be easy enough to breed back in a straighter back (since it's the norm in dogs rather than the exception).
ReplyDeleteI especially like the fact that her facial structure allows her to (apparently) breahte more normally.
Beth, a completely level topline is not normal - in any breed (although it has been selected for in some instances). I do agree that Mabel's topline did look a little odd in the earlier pix, but I think it looks just fine now.
DeleteJemima
When I compare her to pictures of other short-backed athletic dogs trotting, she still seems to have more curve in her back in some of the pics than most. In another pic it just looks like she's a bit higher behind than in front. I'd like to see a picture of her in a more neutral posture, standing. Or video, to get a clearer idea of how she's moving. It may just be how I'm looking at it.
DeleteHer weight, face, and front leg are definitely a huge improvement over most show bulldogs, absolutely agreed.
Or to put it another way, her topline looks more like what I'd expect in a longer, lighter dog like a Whippet. Not knowing too much about bulldogs, I don't know how that translates to a bulldog in terms of long term soundness.
DeleteBy the way, I think her back would not look nearly so rounded if she were stacked. I think because we see her with her hind legs reaching under her, it accentuates what curve is there. Any dog looks rounded when in the contractin stage of a gallop stride.
ReplyDeleteI prefer Mabel's structure over the exaggerated bulldogs you see in the showring. Mabel's definitely more athletic as Beth points out and she's able to breathe freely. Which brings to mind Dr Oechtering's comments in the documentary. Why anyone would find a pushed-in face desirable is beyond me.
ReplyDeleteSorry, she may be less exaggerated than most of the bulldogs in the show ring, but I still wouldnt want to own ANY brachycephalic breed. To me brachycephaly is an abnormality , just as the short deformed legs of dogs with dwarfism are an abnormality . Even with the less squashed face her tongue is still protruding, except when she is carrying a ball in her mouth. OK just a personal view, not wishing to be offensive to lovers of bulldogs, pugs , boxers et al :))
ReplyDeleteAble Mabel. You go girl! She is a awesome bull dog.
ReplyDeleteJemima
ReplyDeleteWould you think Mabel's face structure also be perfect for other flat faced dogs such as Pugs Pekes Frenchies and ect?.
I don't think Mabel's ace structure is perfect - just better. Re Pugs, Pekes, Frenchies - certainly they all need more muzzle, but I think every breed has to be considered individually.
DeleteJemima
"the young Mabel appeared to have quite a rounded "cartwheel" topline which some Bulldog afficionados maintained was likely to leave her crippled as she grew up"
ReplyDeleteI think this highlights 2 things
Either: The breeders do not understand dog conformation and structure and are unable to adequately assess conformation on any animal
or
They were determined to find fault because they wished to disparage the dog because she was such a more athletic and healthier example of the breed, so needed to find an excuse to label her a cripple. It reveals ignorance whichever of the above it happens to be.
Anonymous, neither of your options is correct.
DeleteThe third (and correct) alternative was that, as the first pictures showed an immature dog, it was hoped that her then imbalance would improve with maturity - thankfully for Mabel that has proved to be true and now she shows a far healthier and more appropriate topline. An adult dog with her previous topline would have been at risk of excessive spinal stress in maturity especially if allowed to become overweight. It's very pleasing that time has corrected it.
Knowledgeable people realise that puppies don't grow at a uniform rate and their proportions change as they develop.
It should maybe be pointed out that a less exaggerated form of Bulldog called the "Continental Bulldog" is currently recognised on the national level by the Swiss Kennel Club (FCI member), which is in the process of obtaining international recognition for these dogs as an FCI breed.
ReplyDeletePreviously, that same Kennel Club got the FCI to recognise the white Shepherd (which used to be a GSD colour that was declared undesirable in the 1930s). Given that these dogs have been bred outside GSD show circles since, their toplines look nothing like the abomination that is the show GSD's. May be worth a blog entry, too ;-)
Yes, met some Continental Bulldogs in Stockholm recently and they look pretty good - although I was disappointed to hear some noisy breathing. Never met a Swiss Shepherd but certainly from pix, they don't have the extreme angulation seen in the show Sheps.
ReplyDeleteJemima
i have both a swiss shepherd and a german showline gsd, and their toplines are extremely different. the swiss shepherd is straight backed and build like working gsds but lighter and less muscle-y whilst the gsd is almost roached back with angulation commonly seen in german showlines. the swiss shepherd is 3 now and the gsd is 1, I'm hoping that her muscles tighten up and increase in definition as she matures, but if given a choice, i would've gotten another swiss shepherd
DeleteShe wouldn't have a chance at the show ring. Just look at her, she is BREATHING! Ew. That clearly is a mix breed and has nothing to do with the original bull fighting dog!
ReplyDelete*sarcasm mode on*
Anna, I do think some show Bulldogs have improved; I saw no bulldog in obvious respiratory distress at Crufts this year and many were trotting round the ring comfortably (indeed the BOB really did move quite well). That's why I am interested in the show breeders' views of Mabel. Do they still "see" a Bulldog? Would they accept a dog that looked like this in the ring? Maybe we should encourage Mabel's owners to enter her and see what happens?!
DeleteI had a private email yesterday from a Boxer breeder yesterday who thought she was prob a Bulldog/Boxer cross - but I have been assured that she is purebred (and indeed bred by a breeder that shows).
Jemima
I'm not a bulldog breeder but as a vet I'd like to say how much I like Mable. She screams 'bulldog' but she also has less detrimental exageration. If I wanted a bulldog I'd want one like this! As a purebred dog she also proves there is hope for all breeds....maybe even without outcrossing!
ReplyDeleteVP
Her head doesn't seem quite as massive as well which is nice to see, but alas would likely out her from the showring..but certainly she is closer to dog as a result. She even seems to have some leg..a refreshing looking bdog..and I don't need no stinking standard to like what I see.
ReplyDeleteMary, exactly my point. A knowledgeable person, breeder or otherwise would not label an immature animal a cripple, since he/she is still developing, it was indeed foolish to do so, and showed immaturity, lack of knowledge or both.
ReplyDeleteMary - Edited
ReplyDeleteI don't believe for one minute that those who stated that they thought that Mabel would be a cripple 'hoped' that her 'then imbalance' would correct as she matured. Quite the reverse I would wager.
"Quite the reverse I would wager."
DeleteYou'd lose that wager too, I'm afraid, because I was one of the ones concerned with her spine, and am glad to see it has improved with maturity!
BORING... evaluation by pictures. boring.. boring and meaningless.. the internet has reached an all time low and as for the blogger .. who cares if she wins.. who cares about dog shows.. who care about any of it.. does she have correct kidney function??? how is her heart?/ ..liver values.. ?/ bet someone on here can tell me.. just by looking at a picture.. meaningless and boring
ReplyDeletewhy so nasty Anon? The pictures allow people to assess external conformation, which is what a dog show judge (at any level from the fun local fete to crufts)assesses. Any dog from a very inbred pedigree to a heinz 57mutt can have have unseen internal health problems. I am sure a breeder who is concerned about breeding a bulldog with a healthier outer conformation would not breed from those with known kidney or heart problems.
DeleteVP
no you cannot.. you are not a trained judge.. nor have you ever had your hands on this dog as a trained judge would do.. you cannot assess movement at all ..nor the body condition of the dog without actually touching her.. ( although i will say her tail looks damaged or worn raw) bogus.. like "arm chair quarterbacking"
DeleteConsidering what show Bulldogs look like, trained judges seem to be particularly ill-qualified to assess movement and body condition in these dogs.
DeleteI may not be a 'trained judge' (whatever the hell that means anyway)but I am a trained vet who spends their day dealing with dogs with movement problems and in my spare time I work spaniels who have o be in every ay fit for function. Of course it is only by getting your hands on a dog you can truly tell what it is like but give me a photo of this girl and a photo of some bulldogs assessed by 'trained judges' to be good specimins and, even from a photograph I can point out the differences and how these are likely to affect the dogs health.
DeleteVP
thanks for admitting that no one can assess a dog by photos ...'likely" is not a term that I agree with as there is no scientific basis for "likely".. perhaps you as a vet can comment on the bald spot on her tail.
Delete"perhaps you as a vet can comment on the bald spot on her tail."
DeleteI'm not a vet, but the patch on her tail appears to be the perfectly normal oily gland that dogs (and bitches) have on their tail. Many websites will tell you that this doesn't exist in dogs, but nobody has told the dogs that!
that would be my guess if asked for an opinion, and I would, of course recommend seeing their own vet if concerned.
DeleteVP
Oh wow! She is BEAUTIFUL! I mean REALLY beautiful! I am amazed. She can actually run and breathe!
ReplyDeleteShe is beautiful! So lovely to see such a gorgeous and indeed, healthy (looking) boxer!
ReplyDeleteErm ... she's a bulldog, not a boxer!
DeleteSee what I mean, Jemima? You're not going to get any substantive comments from breeders via this medium. Just sarcasm and un-clever quips. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
Deletepity no pictures of her mouth/teeth as she looks very very undershot
ReplyDeleteIs she ment to have such and arched and curved back? or is that as a result of the silly harness thing she has been put in, a well trained good tempered dog need nothing more than a collar and lead.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHead is not to different from many in the ring but has less nose roll if she had rose ears would look more bulldog good tail and length of body would like to see some photos of her stood for showing
ReplyDeleteHow many times has Kate Price judges Bulldogs or indeed any breed to explain the difference between undershot and very very undershot. I suspect that the dogs roach back means it would never could be shown let alone win. The still pictures of its movement would appear to make it look quite unsound too, but a quick video on youtube could confirm or reject this view.
ReplyDeleteHi jemima did you find out if less skin folds on the outside meant less on the inside very interested as a breeder always trying to improve health but don't want a bulldog that looks like a staffy
ReplyDeleteHi Anon..Thank you for reminding me. Yes I did find out. Here's the answer from top brachy expert Prof Gerhard Oechtering: "Yes and no ;-) The exaggerated reduction of the bony framework causes an excess of soft tissue in- and outside the nose – but we could not find a relation between "in- and outside" – would be nice – but is not reliable."
ReplyDeleteHe went on to say this: "Unluckily – it is very difficult find the magic line between still-tolerable short and too short although length of nose (upper jaw) definitely plays a predominant role.
"The former surgical techniques in brachycephalics (the first published only 50 years after the founding of kennel clubs) do not help any longer in an increasing number of dogs. The former way of approaching and classifying the problem was: there is a hole, a little bit to narrow – and we "snip" the problem surgically away. I did exactly this starting nearly 25 years ago and it worked more or less for about 15 years – but in the meantime breeders succeeded in designing and creating the "noseless dogs" – what we call today "extreme brachycephaly" – and this changed everything. From 20 years ago (snoring a bit and feeling uncomfortable during heat) to the present time of having respiratory distress even at rest and collapsing above 20 degrees C.
The former "snip" the little problem away is not working anymore. Last week we received written referrals for 23 dogs (mainly pug & Frenchy) age ranging from 5 months to 2 years. 80% of them already underwent the "regular" brachycephalic surgery."
I believe that Rowena Packer at the RVC is looking at "how short is too short" in brachyce[phalics - in other words, at one point does too short yield too high a likehihood of problems? The hope is that that will help guide conscientious breeders like you who are committed to improving health find the point where the dogs still look recognisably like the breed they love, but do not present too much compromise in terms of health and welfare.
I'd be interested to hear if Mabel is sufficiently bulldoggy for you if you feel able to answer.
Jemima
Jemima, the excerpt above from the professor literally made me feel ill, in the sort of way you do when you read an awful news story or the like.
DeleteI really do believe that in their way, breeders of these extreme dogs love their dogs. But I don't understand for the life of me how you can consistently produce dogs who need surgery just to lie around on the couch and somehow feel proud of that?
I got in a huge online argument once with a non-bulldog breeder who was defending the need for C-sections in virtually all bulldogs. I was just baffled. This is someone who would absolutely nail a "backyard breeder" to a cross for not doing hip checks. Don't get me wrong, I think hip checks are important (at least in many breeds). But how can someone in good conscience pillory someone for breeding a dog who might be unsound by accident, while steadfastly supporting people who breed dozens or hundreds of dogs who are unsound on purpose?
I don't understand. There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on there, and I don't know how one can break through that. My experience from political debate is that when someone holds a firm belief, the more evidence given against that belief, the more that someone simply dismisses the source of the evidence as somehow unreliable or part of a conspiracy, and then retrenchment sets in.
Hi I think if her ears were rose she would look better looks ok but hard to tell without going over her. I like fit looking bulldogs movement is important they have got to be dogs first .I show and also walk (run round the fields ). my dogs jump on off couch and in out car I will always let my bitches self welp ;yet I'm not blind to how much improvement is needed kc vet checks are pointless would rather see vet check before mateing or showing yearly but kc would loose money of entry's
DeleteI am surprised the vet hasn't commented on Picture 2, 4, 5, showing a redness in between the digits ..interdigital cysts ,and there is a patchiness in coat on the front forelegs as well as the tail,..allergies /dermatitis /pyoderma/seborrhoea?
ReplyDeleteI see one red patch in pic 4, but you're dreaming on the rest.
DeleteIt is hard to assess Mable in terms of "show" conformation with these photos. I am also no expert on the breed as I show sighthounds.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as a dog lover, who shows their pet dog for fun (though at champ shows), I have to say that Mable is the most appealing bulldog that I have ever seen. She seems fairly lithe, active and has a waist! I don't know if Mabel WOULD win in the ring, but in my opinion, only dogs like Mabel SHOULD win in the ring.
Credit to Mabel's breeder. They may be saving their breed.
Still pretty horrible looking, but a good deal sounder than any other bulldog I've ever seen. I guess at least she's a step in the right direction. Her back is too arched, I'd say - she's significantly rump-high standing at rest which might mean strain on her spine. Given the huge improvement in her head over other bulldogs I think that can be overlooked.
ReplyDeleteI think this is the first time I saw a Bulldog and thought that it was kind of cute.
ReplyDeleteDoes Anyone know who Mable's breeder is? I would like to know, in case I ever consider getting a bulldog I want a bulldog that looks more like this! Heck I wouldn't even care if it was a purebred I think really smooshed faces on dogs look gross, personally I like dogs that breathe well, produce on their own etc. I AM NOT CLAIMING MABLE can I'm just stating my preference. SO yeah if anyone knows the name of her breeder please tell!
ReplyDeleteImproving flat faced dogs is not thinking about how gross they look. It's about making sure if they have more comfortable breathing and lesser chances of having to undergo surgery (or surgeries). I really hope Mabel and other bulldogs in her breed standard have longer, happier, and healthier lives. Plus, I'm in hopes that she gets accepted. I would love to have bulldogs like Mabel. (and for all those fancier buffs, here is a pic from 1898 of a bulldog http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog%20Breed%20Historical%20Pictures/Bulldog/?action=view¤t=1898_Bulldog.jpg who looks a lot like Mabel ).
DeleteOh I'm sorry if I sounded like I meant to suggest I don't like flat faces just because they look gross. I mean actually I think they look gross because I know they are unhealthy for dogs to have. If a dog can get so excited they pass out from not getting enough air that is a deal breaker for me. I prefer my dogs not passing out and just in general being in good health. Example I dislike excessive wrinkles, corkscrew tails that dig into the dogs tush, really smooshed faces, and heavily exaggerated unnecessarily long and thick coats. All those breed traits which are abnormal and not good for the dog I dislike. And that was why I like Mable because she is the start of a healthier bulldog with longer legs, muzzle, and less skin obstructing her airways. That's why I wanted to know Mable's breeder especially if it could help me find ore people seeing to do the same with their bulldogs as that breeder is. I would congratulate them for wanting to make a healthier bulldog.
DeleteOh I forgot to mention those are some of the reasons I prefer Old English Bulldogs since as far as breed standard goes says they are to "Olde English Bulldogges are athletic and most importantly of very good health, males are free breeders and females are free whelpers.The Olde English Bulldogge is devoid of all breathing issues and is capable of enjoying outdoor activity without concern except in extreme heat or cold." Which I wish would be true of today's English Bulldoggs,as I said though think it's nice Mabel's breeder is going in the direction of trying to free his dogs from health problems resulting from the breeds conformation
DeleteIt's getting so annoying to me when someone is trying to make improvements and there is still extreme criticisms. Mabel may not be the sharpest stick in the box to some people; but she is definitely a more improved bulldog to others.
ReplyDeleteThis might not be constructive, particularly clever or breeder input, but I personally think Mable is simply beautiful. I don't get that "over-done", "gone too far" feeling when I look at her. Now, I know that's not particularly useful, but it points to common sense, something I kind of think is lacking in the whole dog-showing scheme.
ReplyDeleteAdorable. I love happy, functioning dogs, and she looks perfect.
ReplyDeleteAre there any news about Mabel? I wonder whether she was shown and, if yes - what judges thought of her. It would also be interesting to see her pups and to know how she gave birth, if she was bred.
ReplyDelete