Thursday 15 March 2012

Pekes 1964 and Crufts 1934

A couple of gems from British Pathe...

RACING PEKES


"At the home of Mrs Phipps-Hornby, her five pedigree Pekingese dogs are put into traps, then race around an enclosed track in her garden, greyhound style. Several people watch and cheer them on as they jump over lots of little grassy hedges. Commentator says the guests come here "before watching the real thing at Goodwood race week".

So here's the challenge: anyone got any modern-day Pekes that could do this?

GREATEST OF ALL DOG SHOWS

(Crufts 1934)


Check out the Golden Retriever (extraordinary how they've changed in the UK, although I think this dog will be recognisable to many in the US) and as for the Bull Terriers... How on earth can they think that the head on today's dog is an improvement?

The Bulldog? Probably not an example of a dog from yesteryear to hold up as a template today's breeders should be be aiming for...

39 comments:

  1. They look like tiny Tibetan spaniels.

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  2. At a recent fun day for dogs here in Canada we had several Pekes that tried lure coursing. These were all show champions and they did just fine and were not worse for the wear afterwards. Pekes are not hothouse flowers, they are tough, althletic funny little dogs.

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  3. My ten month old Peke bitch (whom I show) and I tried agility for the first time and she was a natural! Off lead and so keen!

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  4. What was the name of the golden retriever in that clip?

    I couldn't pick it up from the distortion on my computer's speakers and my North American anglophoneness.

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    1. Sounds like Daleside Vetch, which I googled and found http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=36313

      Maggie

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    2. Sire was Michael of Moreton, perhaps the first popular stud in the breed. Michael also had a curly-coated retriever about four or five generations back in his pedigree.

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  5. Sorry to disappoint you Jemima but have had pekes that lived well into double figures ,exhibited at Crufts and did flyball .All we had to do was use table tennis balls.Also had a bitch recently who hunted , caught and ate more mice than the cat.Ch Oula Of Alderbourne , born 1913 ,had coat to the ground, as have many others before, you have unfairly sullied the whole breed .

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    1. that sounds very dangerous, table tennis balls are too small and could block the airway

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    2. Oula of Alderbourne arrived in York in 1917. She was in "dying condition" when she hit port. That means she died in at the age of three or four.

      Source: The CRS Blue Book of Dogs (you can Google it).

      Great paragon of breed health there!

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  6. When a breed has radically "evolved" from what it looked like decades ago to the odd, excessively skinned, droopy-eyed versions of today, does that mean that the breed has improved? And that it should have looked the current way always but was it just a matter of getting to where it is now? Or, does it mean that the breed now is truly mutant, like a mutant gene, and is fast approaching the end of its ability to exist independently of intensive care? -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA

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  7. You are quite right about the Bulldog Jemima, a heavy nose rope that seems to obscure his eyesight.

    But hang on, doesent this prove that the Bulldog has change for the positive?

    That seems to conflict with every thing you have been saying?

    I am confused........

    Carol

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    1. Some breeders are clearly producing bulldogs with less exaggerated nose rope, but just looking at Jemima's blog pictures on the "bulldog breed council statement" thread clearly shows some are not.

      Hope that clears up your confusion.

      Were those English Bull Terriers???? Look like they have a slight stop on muzzle.

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    2. Well I would hope, Carol, that it shows that I can discriminate between good and bad... I do often think that dogs from decades ago look better, but there are exceptions and this Bulldog is one of them.

      Jemima

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  8. There do seem to be pekingese about that are similar to those above....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPj8Mg-KIg4&feature=channel

    They look nothing like the show type........

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzTKKVVq02U

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  9. Intersting. The Pekes have longer legs and less hair....but still no faces so is it wrong to assume the current respiratory problems are linked soley to short muzzles? There are still Goldies like the one picture working in the field. And proof that some breeds have had a problem for a long time in the bulldog. Hence it will take a long time to 'fix' them. Thanks for the peke racing.Brightened my morning!
    VP

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  10. "but still no faces so is it wrong to assume the current respiratory problems are linked soley to short muzzles? "

    It is scientific fact that canine respiratory problems are caused by breeding for extreme brachycephalia. Additional problems can be added to this such as stenotic nares and being on the chubby side.

    ps; my pug is in stage 3 laryngeal collapse. She is not hooked up to an oxygen cylinder, in fact was never cyanotic ( yes dogs in respiratory distress do not necessarily look blue). She can also run, yes run around the garden and jump (maybe a little better if it wasn't for her spinal problem).

    Respiratory problems in brachycephalics are progressive.

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  11. What pretty little dogs! I'd own one of those, if it didn't have breathing problems.

    I wouldn't consider the modern ones. Anyone who's ever had a bad cold or seen a loved one with COPD or asthma should know that respiratory problems are seriously unpleasant, and something to avoid at all costs.

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  12. My Peke (whom I show) recently tried agility as took to it brilliantly! Off lead and she lived it!

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  13. It occured to me whilst watching the second pedigree dogs exposed programme that the fashion for extreme brachycephalia is perhaps a (subconcious?) attempt to make dogs look more human. That some people find the faces of pugs/similar breeds appealing because they are baby-like.

    This, added to the logic error that breed standards create exaggeration, i.e. breed standard describes a feature of the breed compared to the average dog, and soon dogs more extreme in that feature are seen as matching the breed standard more closely.

    I'd imagine that as well as the short muzzles that it is also the excessive weight and hair of the show type that exacerbate the problem. I cannot imagine that the peke that won best in show a few years ago could do agility or run a mini-national. That's the problem, that it was seen as best of breed (and indeed best in show) when there are other perfectly fit pekes around.

    Those who respond to these posts with 'Stop having a go at my breed, my dog of this breed doesn't have health problems and can play all day and has lived to a grand old age' are missing the point. Jemima isn't saying all of your breed are awful, she's saying that all of your breed should be able to play and run and that some dogs can't because of inherited problems with the breed.

    She doesn't (as far as I can tell) want there to stop being Pekes, Pugs, Dogues, Bulldogs or any other breed, she just wants the dogs to be healthy and able to live the lives of regular dogs (whether as a pet or working) to a reasonable life span. She's not trying to destroy breeds, she's trying to save them from breeding to exaggeration and from lack of genetic diversity.

    She's not attacking the breed or even the dog when she posts photos of dogs that look like they are struggling (to see, to move, to breathe etc), she's saying 'hey, we're hurting these dogs, lets make sure health is a priority, we shouldn't be saying that a dog that struggles to breathe is best of breed. We ought praise people who breed healthy, good tempered, long lived dogs.'

    Pamela

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    1. sigh..It's so simply..even for brilliant people

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  14. That's a good final comment Pamela and very fair.

    It is natural to become 'defensive' when the critisism appears to be personal and sometimes Jemima does generalise or fails to highlight the positive as well as the negative - which was why PDE had such a negative reaction from the 'show world'. However, especially of late I've increasingly seen credit being given where it's due and that can only be progressive for all concerned. Just because dogs conform to a certain breed type does not have to mean they must be unhealthy. A few subtle changes to the finer points will retain recognisable breed type, without the issues connected with the ultra extremes. People can still own and breed pugs, bulldogs, Neopolitan Mastiffs etc and breed for health as well as type. It's when there is talk of breeds being 'banned', or changed radically to the extent they are unrecognisable that makes people feel threatened.


    In answer to the first part of your post, I'm reasonably sure it has been proven by scientific research that the underlying reason why short faced animals (of any species)appeal intrinsically to humans is their resemblence to human infants. Many of the brachycephalic companion breeds originated in the far East long before dog shows were dreamed up. People wanted a canine 'baby' to nurture. I think it's a very interesting subject and wish I could remember more about the study.

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    1. Nice reply. I think the anthropomorphic aspects of breed mutilation is undoubted, and can be spread further such that people should really ask themselves whether a particular look of dog (even crossbred) appeals as it is filling a weakness in their makeup. It may be unintentional, even harmless, but it will stop people expecting qualities in their dogs that do not exist, and overlooking problems that do!

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  15. yes. all of my pekes can do this and they love running around the park for hours on end.

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    1. tiny?? but you're right, especially when you compare tibbies of the very early 1900s

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  16. There are still a few working Golden Retrievers to be found in Scotland, similar to the one at Crufts in 1934. They are a darker golden colour than the modern ones, with a good waterproof double coat, unlike the platinum blonde plush coats seen today. And they are surprisingly fast moving dogs. Somebody in this area occasionally breeds a litter, and sadly has difficulty finding homes for puppies, hard to believe people prefer the modern Golden retrievers to these lovely sound dogs. Albert Titterington used to breed them in Northern Ireland,and showed them as well as working them but I believe he has now given up

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  17. Excellent post Pamela!
    I had a King Charles that lived until 15 without ever having a vet bill until the last month of his,excluding jabs. But does this mean there isn't a large problems within the breed- of course not!
    I also had a Bull Mastiff who lived until he was 11,fit,lean and active until the end but neither of these dogs would have gotten a 2nd look in the ring as they were both pretty moderate dogs.
    The point is we can all relate tales of heathy dogs within a breed but the fact is that these dogs aren't usually the ones out winning BOB's which imo*should* be about the the best there is and that doesnt mean dogs riddled with health problems and an inability to perform basic functions.
    I show my Border's so I'm not anti show/breeders in any way shape or form but people need to wake up and realises breeding for extremes, be it excessive skin hanging, huge heads,extreme brachycephalia etc is harming the dogs and breeds that a supposed to love!
    To put it simply if a dog can't perform basic functions like breath, run around and breed without human help or surgery and has a lifespan in single figures there is something fundamentally going wrong within that breed!
    On a positive note I thought the Akita which got BOB at Crufts was super and the young Mastino too pity the judge wasn't brave enough to award her top honours.

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  18. "Looks like" they are struggling to breathe....Jut because, in someones opinion a dog looks a certain way doesn't make it the truth. I am new to this blog and PDE, but from reading Jemmimas profile I see nothing that qualifies her as an expert in anything. I do notice from reading back a few days that a lot of people agree with her just based on pictures which could be altered, or taken from a bad angle. Maybe people could think for themselves and visit the breeders, see their dogs at home and make their own assesments. I am in the US and our breeders are always open to having guests, answering questions and showing off health certificates. I don't think breeders in the UK are much different. I think people need to remember not to be blinded by the fact that someone had a TV show or 2.. Anyone with the money and time can make a documentary, it doesn't make them an expert.
    IDK why I bothered to type all this it prob wont make it by the mod..... Pam

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    1. have in mind that In America there's easily more than double the dog population than in UK and thus we have more genetic diversity, you obviously haven experienced how devastating can be to own a dog that due to inherited disease/complications cannot live a full and happpy life and just being alive comes with suffering just because breeders think it is ok as long as it looks good

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    2. Anonymous 09:07 said:

      'have in mind that In America there's easily more than double the dog population than in UK and thus we have more genetic diversity...'

      This is a common misperception. Greater numbers of individuals in itself does not automatically mean greater genetic diversity, especially in a closed-registry system that utilizes breeding practices that further reduce the gene pool.

      Because North American dogs are generally descended from dogs that were imported from other countries, they would logically be descended from an even smaller subset of the greater population. North American breeders use the same breeding practices as those in other countries with the same result: a reduced gene pool. Thus, it is entirely possible that North American dogs have a similar and possibly worse rate of genetic diversity than dogs in Europe, even if there are more individuals per breed.

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  19. Question, maybe when people state that something is a "Scientific Fact" the could quote the source. It will give the post more credibility, and the readers the chance to look it up on their own.. Anyone can say anything is a "Proven scientific fact". It doesn't make it true though.

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    1. Google the words "brachycephalic nasoturbinates". Take your pick of the papers written.

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  20. wow, these peeks look quite different from what I see here sometimes.
    There are not so many peeks where I live, but a lot of pugs and bulldogs and they all have some sort of problems, only exception is a continental bulldog.
    But the owners don't seem to see that.

    I talked to a owner of one some time ago, I startet the conversation because her peek had problems breathing.
    But she said he is allright and healthy and fit and can play and run.
    So I let one of my dogs play with hers and they started running and besides that her dog had no chance to be even half as fast as mine, her dog almost collapsed, breathing heavily after only like 2 or 3 minutes.
    It made me very sad to see this dog, wanting to run and play but he couldn't and his owner didn't even see it.

    I'm not against these breeds, but I'm will never understand why the way the dog looks is more important than health.

    I love dogs but after I saw PDE and read alot about inherited conditions, I have different view of dog breeding.
    I finally decided to adopt two mutts, yeah I know they can be ill too, but so far, mine have no Problems.

    I'm glad you have this blog, I'm glad you made PDE because lots of people aren't aware of all these problems.
    Great work you do.

    Ps: sorry for my sometimes bad english but it is not my native language.

    Lissy

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  21. Congratulations on admitting that the dogs of yesteryear weren't necessarily the sort of quality to aim for, and that the breeds might well be better now than then. :)

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  22. Pity no-one on here appears to read breed standards. Golden Retrievers should be any shade of gold or cream but never red or mahogany. There is nothing nicer than seeing all the permitted shades together in the show ring, all happy and healthy, which goldens usually are. Cream or gold doesn't affect their health, temperament or working ability which is surely more important than colour.

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  23. Yes my pekes do this over bamboo poles take a look at this years RCC winner doing the same

    http://youtu.be/f82mjdRpY0w

    Some may have more coat but they are still the same dogs of yesteryear

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  24. Sorry I meant the Shar Pei not Akita which won BOB at Crufts!

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  25. The dogs were cute and funny.

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  26. I am following your weblog for a while now and like the thoughts you express.

    There is one thing more that bothers me the last decade or so, I am all for try to breed as healthy as possible, doing health checks before breeding, vet checks at shows etc. But people who want a puppy seem to think more and more that they deserve a healthy dog, as if they are buying a refrigirator or washing machine...
    And they seem to have the laws on their side, as comsumers rights appley to live animals as well.
    But health is no right! Just like in humans sometimes things go wrong, sad, but true.
    This is not ment as an excuse for bad breeding, but something to consider too in this whole mine-field of opinions...

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  27. Those bull terriers are lovely! Are there any breeders that folks are aware of that are trying to get back to this type?

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