Tuesday, 17 January 2012

KC film: the verdict

I posted earlier today about the release today of the Kennel Club's counter-film to our Pedigree Dogs Exposed update and promised a "review" when I'd had a chance to see the whole thing.

So what did I think?

Not bad, actually. It is quite well made and I would imagine the KC considers it money well spent in order to show the world what it is doing to secure the future health of pedigree dogs.

I also welcomed the acknowledgment - quite strong in places - that there are problems (if a little bemused by the buck-passing to the judges and breeders as if, somehow, they are not KC-appointed/endorsed).

And I was pleasantly surprised to hear the news that the Kennel Club has decided to ask breeders who register five or more litters a year for a copy of their council license, although it was not made clear what action the KC will take if those breeders fail to comply (have asked the KC re this so will edit in their answer if I get one).

So that's all good. And, in all honesty, it's about as reasonable a puff piece as one could expect any organisaton to make about itself.

Can you feel a "but" coming on?

You bet your bippy.

But as I'm busy, it's late and pictures speak louder than words,  I will simply post some pictures taken (not by us, I should say, given that we were refused access) at the Richmond Champ Show last year... that's the show featured in the film at which KC Chairman Steve Dean sings the praises of the hound group and dog shows in general.. where we, a little unexpectedly, see only level-backed German Shepherds..and where the Neapolitan Mastiff judge raves about how improved the breed is.

(Click the pics to expand)

GREAT DANES


Is this a double merle?
 CLUMBER (this one won BOB)


 GSDs

Reserve Dog CC




 NEAPOLITAN MASTIFFS



Am I being selective?  Yes, I am.

The point, of course, is that the Kennel Club has been, too.

For a written, rather than visual, commentary check out Terrierman's blog on the KC's film.

67 comments:

  1. Nice pictures! They say it all -- the Kennel Club has a LOT of work left to do. It started reform 100 years late, and what little progress that has occured in the last three years has only been done because of the tremendous exposure and shame heaped on the Kennel Club after Pedigree Dogs Exposed was first shown in August of 2008.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. At 23:17 "So If they find that they've got a dog that has an inherited problem, then they cannot breed from that dog without the risk of us coming down on them and ejecting them from the [ABS] scheme"

      When did that rule get added? Last I checked there was no requirements for a good test result, you only have to do the test.(for those breeds with compulsory tests.)

      Delete
    2. Once "ejected" from the ABS, can puppies from the bitch with a known inherited problems still be registered with the KC and therefore in the eyes of Jo Public still have what they see as the KC stamp of approval?

      Delete
    3. I concur. PDE has been the primary impetus for whatever health-related efforts the KC has done, and PDE2 is the impetus for the new video. Too bad for the KC that it did not wait until PDE2 was broadcast, because now Jemima has more than just an empty chair to respond to. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA

      Delete
    4. P Burns, are your lovely JRTs PLL tested? And do you reckon that the KC and PRT breeders that register with the KC and FCI gave a lot of money to the AHT to find a test for PLL?

      The same is being done right now to find a test for Late Onset Ataxia.

      You like to criticise a lot, but, like they say in my country, "you spit in your own plate" (meaning biting the hand that feeds you). Not all is ideal, but a little praise for the really good stuff the KC and the "pedigree breeders" do, wouldn't hurt.

      Delete
    5. The research for a PLL test began in September of 2001 with a donation from the Jack Russell Terrier Research Foundation, an offshoot of the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America, which is in no way affiliated
      with the AKC. The JRT-RF cut a check for $6,400 to start the ball rolling, and more money followed. Perhaps more importantly, it was the JRT-RF that supplied most of the canine swabs and gene samples
      that were the basis for the PLL test work.

      The breakthrough for the tests did not occur in the UK, but in the U.S. and was announced in October 2009 at the University of Missouri,College of Veterinary Medicine.

      In thanks to the Jack Russell Terrier Research Foundation, JRT-RF members were given deep discouns on tests after they were developed.

      Delete
    6. P Burns, I donated and helped raise funds for this. I saw the studies, and kept up to date with the research. I know the dogs that were instrumental in mapping the gene (specifically the progeny of one affected very well known sire).

      I can't understand why you can't assume that the funding from the UK Kennel Club Charitable Trust and from the AKC Canine Health Foundation was what allowed for the test to exist. You surely can't believe that $6.400 from the JRTCA was the main contribution for the research.

      Delete
  2. Jemima Said:

    "I also welcomed the acknowledgment - quite strong in places - that there are problems (if a little bemused by the buck-passing to the judges and breeders as if, somehow, they are not KC-appointed/endorsed)."

    Actually judges aren't 'KC Appointed/Endorsed' as such. At the most basic level, anyone can judge, if invited by a show organiser. Get to Championship show level, and rules are a little stricter, based on rules imposed by the Kennel Club, but still not KC 'appointment' as such. At least in my breed anyway.....

    First you have to have judged a pre-requisite number of classes, including specified numbers of dogs at a breed club show. (Remember, no KC approval for jugdging at Open/Limited shows).

    Secondly, you have to have attended set seminars, or which there are three. Titles may not be strictly correct, but these are basically:-

    Judging Rules
    Conformation and Movement
    Breed Specifics

    Thirdly, you must have carried out stewarding at a pre-requisite number of shows (basically to put into practice ring rules I guess)

    Once this criteria has been met, you can apply to the BREED COUNCIL (note not KC) for approval for inclusion on the relevant judging list.

    Once on the list, you are eligible to be invited to judge at championship show level, at which point your appointment will be put to the kennel club for 'approval'. I am not aware of anyone being rejected by the KC once Breed council approved.

    Of course other breeds may be different, but in essence it is show organisers that appoint judges.

    As for the pictures, I am not au fait with the breeds shown, but I would ask, what age are the specimens? There will still be animals out there in the show ring that are 'pre-PDE', being that it is less than four years from the airing of the program.

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  3. Annie Macfarlane17 January 2012 11:39

    I think most definitely that one of the Great Danes is a puppy! For reference I contacted the KC yesterday after watching the film to enquire about what sanctions they would give to ABS breeders who bred from unhealthy stock. I cited a case where there was a very high COI - along with hip dysplasia - and I got a lecture about the inheritance of hip dysplasia and the fact that there may be reasons for considering the use of a particular stud dog with exceptionally high hip score. No mention of sanctions; despite Ms Kisko's assurances that breeders who breed from unhealthy stock will be dealt with. I got the usual response really and nothing that put my mind at rest that any real changes were going to be happening soon. Nor did I feel confident that the KCAB scheme was not just another money making project for the KC....with no teeth.

    The sad fact is that the KC can bring in all the initiatives it wants, all the compliance etc., - but if it ain't gonna do anything to those that refuse to comply then nothing will change. I do agree with Patrick...what has happened over the last few years has come about because they were shamed by the distressing scenes featured in PDE.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually, my own opinion is that very little has changed.

      OK, the 'initiatives' are more public, but has anything REALLY changed?

      Delete
  4. I have mixed feelings about the use of photos to make a point. If you show a photo of a dog with ectropion , it shows the reader what ectropion is , and it catches the eye and the reader will remember what they have seen, and continue to associate ectropion with that breed. But it doesnt really constitute evidence of how widespread the problem is in the breed, unless you have reliable figures of the incidence of the problem to accompany the photo.

    For every photo that Jemima shows, of course the KC can come up with another one that shows something different (GSDs with level backs, for example)

    If however I write a post stating that around 50% of all Irish Setters tested for rcd4 (Late onset PRA) are either carriers or affected, which can be confirmed by checking on the KC website, most readers, other than Irish Setter owners, will have forgotten that by tomorrow.
    The photo has more impact than the statistic, ideally what one needs is photos backed up by figures

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 'For every photo that jemima shows of course the KC can show one that shows somthing diffrent'

      Is this not what jemima does, such as the pictures of the neapolitan mastiffs from crufts last year. Only showz what she wants to show. Tbe invite is still there to visit my healthy dogs nearly a year later.

      As for statistic, Im still waiting for you to produce them, fully support your condemnation of the breed

      Delete
    2. You're a Neapolitan Mastiff breeder? Well please invite me again - I have asked to film with NM breeders and have been turned down.

      Jemima

      Delete
    3. No I am not a breeder. I am a pet owner who on occassions shows. Despite this I eye test, and am about to hipscore and heart test. I would love you to visit, however the whole visit would have to be shared with the public. Im first to admit their are health issues in the breed, but there are also healthy dogs, a point you never cover. When will you ever report on the good work many are doing?? Also can I ask how much profit from your work goes.towards animal charities, or health reserch? These mutants of mine as you called them, when you called for them to be banned, oftern take part in charity events to help raise money for a number of causes

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  5. Jemima, before anyone accuses you of doctoring photos or some other such ridiculous thing, I wanted to post the link to the Clumber's website ... where the owner has a very similar photo posted of that dog. http://www.tweedsmuir.org.uk/konnie.htm. Sad.

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  6. I don't believe anything Steve Dean is saying, as long as he doesn't get BT breeders and owners to send DNA samples to ongoing epilepsy research in Finland. I don't live in the UK but it seems to me that there is no difference between our kennel club and the UK kennel club in letting lay persons do the job to get folks informed and to ask them to participate in research. The researchers have already found putable gen loci which could be responsible for this disease, but they are in need of more DNA samples to find the exact mutation(s) and to develop a genetic test. But no kennel club comes forward with this information (except the American, Dutch and Finnish ones, I think). We would need action here, not words telling that maybe this disease affects more breeds than the border terrier or that this disease is not real or not really significant to the breed's health... I've got a border terrier with this disease, and I'm fighting and working to get people involved in the DNA research by sending samples, but I'm frustrated that lay persons (as I am) have to do this work. Why not the kennel clubs?

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  7. Has Steve Dean been asked for help with this? Is this Spike's Disease you are talking about or something else?

    If you give me more details, I am happy to blog to ask for Border Terrier owners to come forward to help with the research.

    Jemima

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    Replies
    1. Yes, it's called Spike's disease and Canine epileptoid cramping syndrome. The Finnish researchers call it epilepsy. I have learned that Steve Dean is both a breeder of border terriers and a veterinarian, so he should be familiar with this and he should keep himself updated. I'm neither breeder nor veterinarian, only owner of an affected dog, and I know this. It's not a secret. Take a look here: http://www.akcchf.org/research/funded-research/1425.html or contact Dr Hannes Lohi from the University of Helsinki (firstname.lastname@helsinki.fi)

      Delete
    2. Does anyone know how to feed an in-whelp female that has Spike's? Our girl has not had an episode since we switched to Euk. lamb & rice. She *may* be in whelp (we find out this next week), and if she is, then she will require an increase in protein, but how can we do this without causing her to have an episode? Is there a certain food or recipe that they handle well, that will also nourish the growing fetuses well enough?

      Delete
    3. Concerned about CECS Border terrier female6 August 2012 23:48

      Just read this,did you find out if your poor CECS suffering border terrier bitch was in whelp after? Please post with a update on her!

      Delete
  8. As someone that has been involved in the breed for so long and sadly seen such little change, thank you from the bottom of my heart for continuing to include the poor Neapolitan Mastiff in your highlighted breeds.

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    Replies
    1. Jemima, might I suggest that it may be something to do with your very blinkered opinions of this breed that is preventing the breeders from welcoming you into their work environment? if a more open and mutually respectful attitude was displayed then perhaps you might find a more willing welcome.
      changes ARE happening for them now, huge changes, and this is still being under reported. You have only to approach the health co-ordinator of the club for a full run-down on whats happening. Maybe worth your time checking out the facts from the horses mouth rather than relying on a one-sided already bias proven source.

      Delete
  9. Border Terrier research

    DNA Samples needed (Europe)
    Dr. Hannes Lohi and his research team at Helsinki university in Finland are looking for DNA samples from Border Terriers with a diagnosis of Canine epileptoid cramping syndrome (CECS) / Spike's disease or epilepsy - and from older, healthy Border Terriers from the same lines as the affected ones.

    They already have found at least two interesting chromosomal regions in Border Terrier DNA from Finland and in Border Terrier DNA they got from the University of Utrecht. In order to investigate these regions further they need more DNA samples from both affected dogs and their older, healthy relatives. Main goal of these studies is to develope a gene test for this disease.

    If you want to participate, please get the necessary information and documents at their website: Participate in Finnish genetic studies.

    Thank you very much for participating!

    ReplyDelete
  10. Steve Dean was the Health Coordinator for the Border Terrier Clubs before he became KC Chair, so he should know about this.
    According to the KCAB scheme there are no requirements for Border Terriers, of course this could be because they have no problems

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  11. "I have mixed feelings about the use of photos to make a point"

    Fair enough. Are the dogs pictured here dogs that were being shown, as sterling examples of their breed?

    Or were they spectators?

    Because if a photo of a flaw (those eyes, those poor dogs) is of a dog that someone is hoping to win a ribbon? For shame. Because how could they resist going home and breeding that on? It's a WINNER!

    Jenn

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    Replies
    1. At most shows, spectator dogs are not permitted.

      Delete
  12. It is very common to breed harlequin danes together. Both the harlequin gene and the merle gene are troublesome when inherited as homozygous, though the harlequin is less so-- it's fully lethal in utero, so no puppy is born. However, double merles are a different issue.

    Chris, over at Border Wars, did a great analysis of the Great Dane culture, which often celebrates breeding double merles:
    http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/07/something-is-rotten-in-harlequin-danes.html

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. how common is common? Statements like this are obviously made with no knowledge or facts or back up but so many like this are made here they go by unnoticed.. and sadly accepted as gospel.Just as a photo does..
      Believe half of what you see .. none of what you hear.. and I would say.. none of what is written here as well
      The Great Dane Culture? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? you don;t really know.. so I would say 'something is definably rotten in Denmark" Denmark being this blog

      Delete
    2. re: Harl x Harl "how common is common"

      This is clearly something that the registry could easily publish as they have access to all the records. Of course they won't, but we need not stop there.

      Why don't you do this little exercise yourself:
      1) Find the top 10 Harlequin Danes in your KC this year
      2) Look at their pedigrees
      3) Count how many Harl x Harl breedings are on those pedigrees

      That's what I did, I started right at the top and looked at the top winning Harl dogs at the time of my post and I reported what I found.

      Harl x Harl was NOT a rare occurrence and I even found dogs on the pedigree that could easily have been double merles themselves given how little color they had.

      And it's not just an issue of what is SHOWN in the ring, it's an issue of what was bred to produce dogs that get shown in the ring. I've uncovered a double merle blind and deaf stud dog in the USA that has never been shown but his progeny are being shown quite often and to great rewards.

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  13. I think the thing is you have to know what you are breeding to what...? Dogs with health problems shouldn't necessarily be removed from a breeding programme - After all if that was the case in some breeds COI would go through the roof!

    Genetics is complicated and even dogs affected can consistently produce puppies without health problems if their stock is DNA screened for and breeders know whether genes are Dominant, repressive, which dogs are affected, which ones are carriers...Careful breeding programmes need to be used and breeders need to be knowledgeable about how genes work - some breeders already are knowledgeable in this field and some are not. Genetics has advanced tremendously in the last few decades and hopefully people are starting to become better educated in this field.

    It would be interesting for the KC to put together a genetics programme to educate breeders so breeders have understanding of how genetics work so they can be aware why things go right sometimes and why things go wrong. Of course there are no guarantees with genetics as there are so many variables but it is a game of chance, doing things the wrong way greatly increases likelihood of problems.

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    Replies
    1. The Kennel Club does hold seminars and they are well-attended, but an online tool would be extremely useful.

      I will blog re this separately at some point as it is worth highlighting, but there's some really useful info for breeders here:

      http://www.seppalakennels.com/articles/population-genetics-in-practice.htm

      Jemima

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    2. Brilliant reply. most here want people to only breed few litters in their lifetime.. restrictions make it so that most people will do just that..no back to back.. no more than blah blah.. no more c sections than...restricted breeds.Judges who have been judging more than most of us have been alive being "watched" by people who probably don't have half of the experience.. it is a wonder thy have not said enough and thrown their resignations into the ring.. I know I would if I thought someone was watching my every move when I judge. etc.. the more rules you make the more people do one of two things.. ignore the rules.. or stop doing what they were doing as it is just too much trouble.... so most people will breed one litter and call it quits. it is a HOBBY to most people and if people say it NOT a hobby then they are called BYB's..and puppy farmers out to make a quick buck.You really cannot win. so very few will actually know about genetics.. why should they .. dog breeders who want to be knowledgeable and take the time to learn are reviled if they dare to say they might make one Shilling on a a litter.. yet they are expected to go to seminars, take time out to whelp litters from "day jobs" and more.
      The AR's are slowly but surely squeezing us.. they may want to outlaw "constrictor snakes" but they certainly know how to act like one. slowly but surely the fun and the art and the desire to breed dogs is squeezing the very life out of those who do the very best job..and the AR snake is smiling all of the way to the death.. waiting to swallow his prey whole.

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    3. So are you going to revise your opinion in view of the later blog post that says it's shameful for someone to revile breeders for that reason?

      I would still be 'on the fence' to a certain degree on this issue, if it wasn't for the comments by some of the Anonymous to this blog. What with phrases like 'bum chums' and calling people who actually support breeding dogs, eating meat etc "the AR snake" because they- shock horror!- oppose unethical breeding and breeding for poor health (as do most pet owners and breeders in lots of breeds), I now know where I want to stand.

      Delete
  14. So, if you have been selective with your evidence, and you believe the KC has too, perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

    Anyone can make something look dangerous (or rosey) if they are selective with the evidence they choose to present.

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  15. Thank you for the link to that site Jemima, haven't had chance to read it all yet but it looks like an interesting read.

    When I said "programme" I was using the term loosely. What I meant was a video that was easily accessible to everyone, I know the KC hold many seminars but sometimes they are so far away for people and not always held on days when people can make it. I think the more easily accessible the information is the better. As you pointed out an online tool would be very helpful. The mate select is a very good start but at the moment doesn't give a huge amount of information but it could potential be turned into a most valuable resource for breeders.

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  16. I'd estimate that the second Dane is a double merle, there's just such little color visible anywhere, and it's most certainly harlequin on top of that. It might even have piebald and Irish white as well.

    I've written about the issues in these dogs: Harlequin Danes.

    Both Harlequin and Merle are most often lethal in the double dose and crippling when not lethal. Breed two dogs that are single H and single M together and you're looking at litter sizes that are about half the size they would be without those two genes.

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    Replies
    1. Agreed, that is most certainly a double merle, without a doubt. Just remember, merle itself is not a lethal gene, its when its not responsibly bred, that it is lethal. I must say as well, that video in Terrierman's post, it made my day. Meaning, it was hilarious.

      Delete
    2. There is nothing to suggest the Danes, or indeed any of the dogs in the uncaptioned pictures, were being shown. If they were present Not For Competition, there is little relevance in posting the pictures.

      Delete
    3. Julia -

      Being shown is really not an issue. These dogs are being produced in the process of creating dogs that are shown. Simply look at the pedigrees of the top Harlequin Danes in your area and count how many Harl x Harl breedings took place on that pedigree to produce the top winning dog.

      Don't try and pretend that there are only some rogue evil backyard non-show breeders doing this. I found numerous Harl x Harl breedings in the top US show dogs. I imagine if I investigated the top Harls in the UK I would not come up empty handed either.

      Delete
    4. You are right, unfortunately. I swear it seems like a new thing, I don't remember seeing harl x harl breedings in the past, but now I'm seeing them more and more, and the breeders seem perfectly fine with having at least one deaf puppy... It is really sad. Even moreso that breeders are wanting to remove the merle gene from breed standards all together, because of these irresponsible breeders... They just keep crumbling.

      I don't even see the point either. The only reason I could see them doing it is because they think doing double harls will produce a better pattern, but the pattern is totally random and has nothing to do with inbreeding... Inbreeding can only affect the structure, coat, and personality, but not the coat pattern, at least in the case of harlequins. (If both dogs had a recessive gene, it would affect the pattern, but harl is not recessive.)

      Delete
  17. The co,mments re Danes show that Breeders need to be experts in what they put together. After all if a particular mating is likely to be 'lethal' what is the point.

    It was interesting to read the comment re dominant genes.

    One of my favoured breeds, the labrador retriever, was at one point only accepted as a black. Anything else was considered 'non pure' and destroyed at birth.

    In the distant past, yellows were accepted, and we gained the 'Yellow Lab Club' in the UK. In my own life the 'chocolate' lab has become accepted. In the last few ears we have seen 'silver' labs, although the thought has been these are weimeramer cross specimens.

    My pont?

    Well, whilst you can have a dominant gene for blacks, the only GUARANTEE of colour is actually the yellow lab. Breed yellow to yellow, you guarantee yellow. Cross any other colour combination and you get a situation where the result is not guaranteed.

    So, should we revert to the past, or are we actually more accepting of what can happen with genetics these days. Are we learning from past mistakes?

    ReplyDelete
  18. James Callingham18 January 2012 09:51

    Jemima, I have a couple of comments on some inaccuracies I have noticed in this post/comments/on Terrierman's blog.

    The KC does register all dogs, and has done for years! Anyone who has done even basic research into this would know that dogs can also be registered on the Activities register (as mine is), or more recently the Companion Dog register – both of which mean that crossbreeds (like mine) can be registered. I assumed this was common knowledge?

    Re back to back matings – I’d rather that the limit on litters for a bitch was just two or even one – but if someone is going to have four litters – I guess we’re talking about more or less ‘commercial’ breeders here - then I’d rather they had them in pretty speedy succession and then rehomed the bitch to a nice home (ie at the age of 3 or 4) than hung on to her to have 4 (or under the law 6) litters and sent her off to a new home at the age of 7 – what do you think the bitch would prefer?

    After watching the KC film it seems to me that they are taking decent steps to improving the health of dogs, but obviously this won’t happen overnight. I follow your blog and it often seems that you would rather just attack the KC instead of acknowledging that these issues can’t be dealt with instantaneously with a magic wand. It’s a collaborative effort and the KC are showing that they are putting substantial work in to weeding out bad breeding practices.

    Why shouldn’t they make a film to show the good work they are doing? As far as I can tell (and I feel I am quite on the ball here) nothing that was said in the video was untrue (despite what that imbecilic Terrierman may believe!).

    Let me know your thoughts,

    James.

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    Replies
    1. I think this is a case of how you define "all". The difference is I think whether you intrepret "all" to mean

      a) The KC has several differents registers which makes it possible for owners to register any dog they wish with KC. So KC has the potential and willingness to register all dogs regardless of their origin.
      or
      b)The KC registers all dogs in Britain i.e. all the dogs in Britain are registered in a KC registery.

      In this case a) would be true, b) not true (as I have understood it).

      Perhaps it is slightly misleading of KC to state blandly that "KC registers all dogs". Something along the lines of "KC is willing or KC is able to register all dogs" would be more accurate.

      Delete
    2. Well written James.

      I'm not generally in favour of back to back matings - too open to abuse, but in some situations I can see there is a valid reason for doing so and there is some evidence that this can be better for the bitch than long intervals between litters.

      The ABS, though not as good at potentially it could be, is still far and away the best means of identifying responsible breeders.

      It will take time to see changes. Dogs are not like cars, you can't simply manufacture a different model overnight.

      Delete
  19. I have a friend who had three pedigree great danes, none of them had these sagging faces.

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  20. Also my dad had a german shepherd, he lived till he was 12 1/2. He was a great dog, he did get back problems, but he was elderly when that happened.

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  21. With respect to the Clumber Spaniel. I've never seen a Clumber, but . . . perhaps cause they're a gun dog I've never seen, I find them interesting. From what I understand, it's a rare breed with a lot of health problems, and the fanciers community is working hard to improve health.

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    1. There are Show Clumbers (like the one pictured) which have been bred to a KC breed standard. These dogs are generally too large and slow to work and many have poor eyes and flews which cause them to drool. There are also Working Clumbers which have been bred for their ability to work and not for conformation. These dogs are lighter with clear eyes and will work as a spaniel should, hunting and retrieving. See http://www.workingclumber.co.uk/ for details of the working type. None of these dogs would win anything at KC type dog shows, but they are all fit for purpose and regulary work.

      Delete
    2. Unfortunately so many of the working bred Clumbers now make an incestuous brother x sister mating look out bred. Many may have better eyes, hips in general aren't a problem (not all) but many have well over twice the breed average COI, which is already high. A ticking time bomb that considering about half of all Clumber pups being bred in the UK now have COIs of 30-38% according to Mate Select. Wonder when the KC will stop such high matings.. for the breed soon hopefully.

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  22. Some working Clumbers owned by George V in the 1930s. No loose eyes, less loose skin on the head, longer legs. The King expected his dogs to work on the shoots at Sandringham 4 or 5 days a week. But some of his Clumbers were also shown at Crufts, the most successful was Sandringham Spark who got dog CC and BOB in 1935
    http://www.pbase.com/owahl/kings
    Beautiful dogs, but slightly heavier I think than the working Clumbers bred today by people like David In the 1950s R.V. Garton bred some good Clumber/Springer crosses. He said the Clumbers had better noses than the springers but were handicapped by their weight for a full day out shooting. His crosses were more leggy and faster than Clumbers, and nice looking dogs with a good nose, and I believe at that time RV Garton was able to register them with the KC . They deserved to be more popular than they were , but by the 1970s the aversion to cross breeds was growing, and in 1978 the B register was done away with

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  23. Annie Macfarlane19 January 2012 21:04

    I've had the privilege of meeting an adult working clumber spaniel and a puppy. I couldn't get over the differences between them and the show type clumber - which is all I had ever seen previously.

    They are lighter dogs with a more compact body which is a lot shorter than the show type. Their eyes have no ectropion or entropion and they generally looked a lot fitter than those I have seen around the show ring. I consider them to be a very handsome dog.

    These dogs were bought to try and breed a working line here in Scotland. It's almost as if they are a different breed but I think that about show cockers and working cockers - the latter being my preferred type for health and working ability.

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    Replies
    1. Jemima blogged about the difference a couple of years ago.

      http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2010/11/clumber-at-discover-dogs.html

      Sad.

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  24. We really need a PDE here in the U.S., although honestly I don't think the AKC would do near as much as the KC has done in response to it. We are even more entrenched over here than you are in the UK. :(

    Jemima, would you consider coming to the States to film the third installment? :)

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    1. The AKC should have started preparing a response the minute that it became clear that PDE was causing a public outcry in the UK. They did not, so now we have Wayne Pacelle, in the New York times Bulldog article, saying "if the A.K.C. and breed clubs won’t act, it’s inevitable that animal welfare groups will push for legal standards addressing inbreeding and the physical soundness and genetic health of dogs."

      If PUPS manages to pass you can bet that they'll push any other dog breeding legislation federally as well.

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    2. Romany Dog.. with all of the negative publicity do you actually think any good AKC breeder would allow themselves to be filmed. Jemimas affiliation with the HSUS and other animal rights groups do not make for a very popular person to be running around with a camera at a dog show. Of course there are always those who are publicity "hounds ( excuse the pun)who will do anything to be on camera.
      Jess although Wayne may refer to himself and HSUS as animal welfare most of us know better. HSUS is an animal rights groups with a vegan agenda I agree that PUPS would be a travesty for dog breeders of ANY type in the USA. It is HSUS written and HSUS backed with millions of dollars not available to the average dog owner. However, one thing Americans have in their favor ( so far) over Brits. They cherish their freedoms and are less susceptible to the "nanny state' that so many countries seem to favor.

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    3. Well a few good KC breeders have, Jan, and I know of quite a few American breeders who were supportive of PDE.

      Can I ask you to please stop insisting that I am affliated to the HSUS or "other animal rights groups". It is simply not true.

      Jemima

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  25. what happened to your post about Wayne and his judges Jemima

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    Replies
    1. I deleted it Jan... as you were absolutely right. Got my Waynes mixed up. It was indeed Wayne Cavanaugh, not Wayne Pacelle, who has invited me to talk to UKC judges.

      Jemima

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  26. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLScvGLR-Nc&feature=player_embedded#!
    Very sad example

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  27. I can see from the photos above that adjustments have been made to some of these images. I have met one or more of these dogs and know that the images above are not a true representation of the animals in question.

    I would also like to point out to those not computer literate that there is such a thing called ICC profiling, meaning the images you see on your monitors do not have accurate colour representation.

    So before passing judgement on ANY photo you see on the internet, insist on seeing the raw file format and ensure your monitor is calibrated with the appropriate hardware/software.

    I can tell you now, the images above are very inaccurate. (Profiled PC using Eye One software/Hardware and Im a photographer, I can see the photoshop work done on these images.)

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  28. Don't be ridiculous, Sizer. You cannot see the photoshop work because there was none.

    Jemima

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  29. Umm...take a good look...I can replicate the colour difference in some of these photos in under 30 seconds....only someone who isnt familiar with photography, profiles and something called white balance would make such a comment. You can continue to live in your naive little world but those with experience know better.

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  30. Out of interest Jemima, did you take the photographs yourself or were they sent to you...I suspect the latter whereby you have no idea what has been done to the images, what white balance settings were used or if in fact they have been edited or not. I can send in a photo and claim its as shot but that means nothing..... seems to me that you are accepting these images as gospel without the background information to verify their authenticity. If you are going to publish information you need to verify it.

    Like I said I have photographs of one of more of the animals above, taken accurately and they look nothing like the photos submitted above....they have been worked on or incorrectly shot enhancing certain colours to make the dogs appear differently from how they actually are in real life.

    I'm all for informative information but only and ONLY if it is accurate...the images above are not!

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  31. I usually admire the thrust of Jemima's films and blog’s, she is clearly dedicated to improving the health of ALL dogs.
    Jemima is obviously selective and quite sensationalist in making her points. However The Kennel Club are so full of generalities and politically motivated false impressions, in order to continue more or less as they have always have, to the point of being disgraceful towards genuine and meaningful measures to improve health of our Dogs.
    The world of dogs and particularly Pedigree Dogs needs the Jemima's of this world. Butts need kicking and crap needs exposing, through the most powerful media available, again and again, to get things done. It was NO coincidence that in PDE 3 years on, that the Boxer Breed Club and the King Charles Spaniel Breed Club acted in a similar disgraceful manner towards the very serious health problems in their breeds. Most Breed Clubs and unfortunately far too many breeders quite regularly get fixed in "DENIAL" about health problems in their breed.
    NOT ALL HEALTH PROBLEMS of course, as some breeds routinely do Hip & Elbow scoring, Haemophilia tests is another one that some do. BUT mentions a DNA Test for a serious disease, then sit back and listed to the multitude of excuses why they don't do it, or just listen (if you can) to the SILENCE!

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  32. I'm not a dog lover, but I watched this programme last night and I am disgusted that the people responsible for breeding such freak shows and ill ridden dogs is diabolical. you wouldn't do this to your own flesh and blood so what gives humans the god given right?? Money and vanity and I use vanity loosely springs to mind

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  33. I'm afraid that the photos of GSDs at Richmond were not at all representative of the dogs there - so, yes, you are being selective and it does you no favours. I'm a GSD owner and I was there and whereas I agree with much that you've said about GSDs before, to show still photos of a dog when it's moving or at rest isn't just disingenuous - it's basically fraudulent. But the sad fact is that if you pick on a breed as a whole you are going to upset all the people that are in that breed. The vast majority of those breeders showing at Richmond showed straight backed GSDs without hindquarter faults - and are dedicated to doing so.

    Perhaps you should investigate how the breeders of banana backed dogs have fixed the judging at all this year's championship shows so that only banana backs will get through to Crufts in 2013 - when the judge is known to favour straight backed dogs? Those of us in a minority are desperately trying to get this breed back to what it should be - and the sort of misleading photo you put out doesn't help our cause - or yours.

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