Tuesday, 9 August 2011

Post-PDE - have the vets done well?

Simple....

The current issue of the Veterinary Record includes an interesting report on a topical debate that took place last month at a British Veterinary Association Council meeting. The motion: "Pedigree Dogs: the sequel - haven't we done well?"

Speaking for the motion was vet Steve Dean, the new Chair of the Kennel Club, who argued that many steps had been taken to address the problems - including health schemes, the Accredited Breeder Scheme, the new genetics centre at the Animal Trust, a limit on the number of C-sections, and that the KC will no longer register the progeny of mother/son, father/daughter and full-sibling matings.  Dean highlighted the collaboration between the various dog health 'stakeholders' as another positive step.

Professor Dean also urged: "We have focused very heavily on the registered pedigree dog, but that leaves something like 2.5 to 3 million dogs that are bred by puppy farmers that are unregistered, outside of any efforts that we're puting in, and that perhaps needs to be considered in future."

I'm not sure where Dean gets his figures from - but it's certainly not true that every dog bred outside of the KC system comes from a puppy farm, while the KC  by its own admission (when pushed) grants KC registration to an unknown percentage of unhealth-tested puppies produced in appalling circumstances. (There are no checks of premises or any health requirements for almost 90 per cent of the puppies the KC registers).

But Dean is still advocating the softly-softly approach. 

"Professor Dean noted that the issue of regulating commerical dog breeders was being considered by the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding, which would need to take into account that putting constraints on those with good breeding standards, whom they wished to encourage, could be counterproductive," writes the Veterinary Record.

Arguing against the motion was Dan Brockman from the Royal Veterinary College, who as a specialist in brachychepahlic airway syndrome has to deal with the unfortunate consequences of selective breeding on a daily basis.

The profession, he said, had to some extent turned a blind eye to the problems and that, while he welcomed new impetus: "There's a lot more work to do and we've barely scratched the surface."

Vets, he suggested, needed to look at the population as a whole and play a role in educating the consumer so that the profession was not "sleepwalking into a perpetuation of demand for breeds that are inherently diseased".

Professor Brockman also questioned : "Do the breed standards as they currently exist include or embrace pathological states? If we think they do then as a profession surely we can't just sit back and let that continue?"

In terms of control strategies, Brockman pointed out that while some efforts to eradicate disease required much expertise, others could be dealt with by more straightforward means. There was, he said, a potentially simple fix for brachycephalia: "We outcross these dogs with dogs with noses."

Come now, Dan - then you'd just have mongrels. Sure, mongrels that can breathe but....

As Barry Offiler, Chair of the Peke Club, told the Times not long after Pedigree Dogs Exposed: “If it’s got a muzzle it won’t be a Pekingese, and if we have to breed dogs with a muzzle which breed do we cross with them?  We are talking about a breed that is popular worldwide. This will prevent us showing dogs abroad and will stop overseas competitors entering Crufts. We all support improved health, but we don’t know what damage the muzzle might give to the breed.”

So who won the BVA Council debate  - Dean or Brockman?

"From a show of hands, it was clear that a majority of Council members felt that there was still much to do," reports Vet Record.

28 comments:

  1. x = 5. Elementary. But the drawing isn't a 3,4,5 triangle.

    The real question isn't simple and data are insufficient to form rational judgement. Note RATIO is part of 'rational'. We need to get a better sense of proportions before forming judgements. What fraction of dogs are Pedigree in the KC sense? What fraction are pedigree, in the sense of deliberately bred working dogs or carefully bred cross breeds or intermediates in outcross/backcross breeding (ie health checks done, lineage known), what fraction are casual breedings or from oops litters (dog jumped fence, or 'I have a girl and want to have puppies . . . can I use your boy', with no health checks or understanding of lineage? What fraction are from for profit puppy farm that ignore pedigree, Pedigree, health and temperament?

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  2. “we don’t know what damage the muzzle might give to the breed.” I’m afraid I nearly choked on my breakfast when I read this.

    What is the problem here? Why is the KC not simply changing the breed standard to ensure that in future, brachycephalic dogs have the benefit of a muzzle.

    Maybe I have missed something, but I have to confess I am completely mystified.

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  3. Pippa M "“we don’t know what damage the muzzle might give to the breed.” I’m afraid I nearly choked on my breakfast when I read this. " one wonders if again you misquoyte a person out of context (as you are want to do) for Pipps digestion and the sake of honesty perhaps you should stop that bad habit!

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  4. Dan Brockman and the majority of the vets think there is a lot more work to do. Do you have any more information about what kind of work they were thinking of? And do they expect the KC to take the lead and impose/encourage change? Or do they think there are things Vets themselves could/should be doing to improve the health of dogs? Or vets and KC working together as in BVA/KC schemes?

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  5. These are questions we will be asking the vets in PDE2. I am sure they are aiming for a collaboration - but I also believe they are exploring their own initiatives, particularly how vets may help with consumer education/data surveillance. Indeed, VEctAR is one independent initiative that is already up and running - and being rolled to a growing number of practices

    http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/

    Jemima

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  6. Just for Anon... here's the original reference to the peke muzzle quote:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4902952.ece

    This article also highlights the differences between the previous standard and the one pushed through after PDE:

    OLD STANDARD: head large, skull broad. Nose short and broad. Wrinkle, continuous or broken, should extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose. Muzzle wide with firm underjaw. Profile flat with nose well up between eyes. Eyes large. Short body heavier in front than rear. Coat long, with profuse mane extending beyond shoulders

    NEW STANDARD: head fairly large. Skull moderately broad. Nose not too short. Slight wrinkle may extend from the cheeks to the bridge of the nose. Muzzle must be evident, but may be relatively short and wide. Eyes not too large. Relatively short body. Coat moderately long, with mane not extending beyond shoulders.

    Three years on, are Pekes making progress? I'd be interested in hearing from those in the breed what they think.

    Jemima

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  7. I have 2 pekinese, one is 7 and one is 5. both have been good dogs and only to the vet for their jabs. id be lost without them as my wife passed away a year ago and these dogs are my best friends and always there for me.

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  8. Dear Mr Dean,

    My partner and I were thinking of going away for a break and wondered if you would look after my pug Olive for a couple of weeks.

    A few do’s and don'ts;

    1. Make sure she gets plenty of walks. She needs to stay as slim as possible as this helps with her breathing problems.


    2. On said walks please ONLY use a harness as her square head gets out of a collar, but more importantly a collar rubs on her already grade 3 collapsed larynx.


    3. Only walk her if it is cool. Don't think that just because it is cloudy and cool in the morning that it will be ok to leave it until later. Also, even if it is cloudy, if it is humid she will suffer.


    4. Be prepared to change your plans if you take her out for the day because we all know the British weather changes quickly, oh and you will need an air conditioned car.


    5. Best place to walk is on a pavement or short grass. She loves the beach, but if it is windy the sand gets stuck to her eyes.


    6. On walks be careful of approaching dogs. Many go for her. Not sure if this is because they misinterpret her snuffles for growls.


    7. Always carry tissues. She has proprioceptive deficits in her back end and often when she poos she doesn't get rid of all of it and you have to "help". (she cannot reach her own bum to clean it either).


    8. Watch her at all times when eating. Sometimes food gets stuck behind her palate and you have to help her by slapping her side or rubbing her throat.
    (sometimes she will burp up her food too).


    9. Be prepared for a noisy dog. Snoring is apparently "normal", but any excess snoring and panting will further damage her airways.


    10. Don't be alarmed when she constantly clears the back of her throat of phlegm that builds up (especially after a walk). Think it's due to the excess rubbing of her thickened tongue and soft tissues. Apparently normal though.


    11. Re the snoring; She sleeps in the bedroom so I can provide you with ear plugs, but the trouble is she has idiopathic epilepsy, and you know that seizures tend to occur at night. If you wear ear plugs you may sleep through the seizures.


    12. Her seizures are unpredictable, so best not to leave her alone for too long, but we will leave you rectal diazepam at hand. IF she has one, best thing to do is hold her, comfort her and keep her cool. So far she has managed to recover from each seizure, but you never know what the next one will bring.


    13. She loves to play with other dogs, but please be careful as she is prone to eye trauma. A third of each of her eyes is already pigmented, and sewn up so her vision cannot be 100%.


    14. Any medical problems; she is with direct line insurance, but please call me first as any further anaesthetics need a specialist as her larynx is
    grade 3 collapsed.



    Finally, expect to be inundated with smiling people approaching you when out with Olive. They all say “she’s soooooo cute I want a pug”. My advice is to tell them to do more research than I did. I thought I’d done enough, but obviously I didn’t and my heart took over my head.

    PS; Olive is the sweetest little dog you will ever meet.

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  9. "My advice is to tell them to do more research than I did. I thought I’d done enough, but obviously I didn’t and my heart took over my head."


    ....ummmm am I missing something here ? .....what 'research' did you need to do ? ...just LOOKING at the breed would surely have given you some clues as to any likely problems ....I'm afraid that you and the rest of the dog buying public who see short faced breeds as 'cute' must take some of the blame - the equation is simple - if folk did'nt WANT their dogs like theis then breeders would have to change them or stop breeding - the fact that registrations for Pugs , Bostons, French and English Bulldogs have gone through the roof in recent years tells breeders exactly the opposite !! - you don't need a degree in veterinary science to know that Pugs etc have breathing difficulties in hot weather - just stnad next to one ! - but hey it's not your faulst you found them so 'cute' ...

    There are a myriad of other breeds that you and all those others could have chosen ( and plenty with muzzles !! ) ...but the conclusion must be that you LIKE your dogs this way - and thats why they will continue to be bred this way !

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  10. Spot on Bijou.

    Cannot defend a crap choice, BUT can try to educate others.

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  11. ps;

    Bijou; what do you think (for example) should be done apart from educating the "rest of the dog buying public", to help these breeds?

    Deregister? Outcross? Educate the breeders that produce these dogs?

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  12. "Three years on, are Pekes making progress? I'd be interested in hearing from those in the breed what they think."

    I wouldn't expect much easily discernable progress unless breeders are breeding often, and young dogs at that. I'm not sure what kind of progress would be expected after only three years. Better public education? Breeder seminars?

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  13. There is of course some variation so progress to me would be in terms of the dogs winning - are judges picking out the more sound/easier breathers? Is there now more acceptance of the new standard etc?

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  14. "There is of course some variation so progress to me would be in terms of the dogs winning - are judges picking out the more sound/easier breathers? Is there now more acceptance of the new standard etc? " less than 2% of ANY breed is shown, the vast majority of dogs have nothing to do with dogs that have or are shown, so why think what dogs are inthe ring will make such an impact on the breed, if that is all you are going to feature agian, you knowledge of dogs is the one that has clearly not improved

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  15. "Bijou; what do you think (for example) should be done apart from educating the "rest of the dog buying public", to help these breeds?

    Deregister? Outcross? Educate the breeders that produce these dogs?"

    none of these - the solution has to be a reduction in public demand for dogs that look this way -now that the majority of dog owners no longer need to choose a dog because of the way it can work most will choose on the way it looks - hence the rise in breeds where 'cuteness' is the most valuable asset and it seems at the moment that the physiology of the Pug, Boston etc etc is the ultimate in cuteness !- it works in the same way that public demand for instantly available, cheap and no questions asked puppies keeps puppy farmers going ......as long as buyers want that squashed faced look , those bulging eyes and that funny snorting noise breeders will continue to breed for it ...

    thre are HUNDREDS of other breeds to choose from - why are the Schipperkee the Buhund the German Spitz the Cairn, the Tibetan Spaniel and the Swedish Valhund not more popular ? - these are all sound, free moving and good tempered breeds - go figure !.........

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  16. "Deregister? Outcross? Educate the breeders that produce these dogs?"

    "none of these - the solution has to be a reduction in public demand for dogs that look this way -now that the majority of dog owners no longer need to choose a dog because of the way it can work most will choose on the way it looks"

    Yes agree. Education, like telling the truths about the breed. But be prepared for abuse along the way.

    Why not an outcross or de-register?

    For the dog's sake I mean.

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  17. Professor Brockman also questioned : "Do they breed standards as they currently exist include or embrace pathological states? If we think they do then as a profession surely we can't just sit back and let that continue?"

    I think breed standards absolutely need to be re-examined and if necessary changed to better serve the health, longevity & functionality of the dogs. Unfortunately every time I suggest this all I hear is about how difficult it is to do this. WHY? Breed standards are NOT (as some seem to think) an edict handed down from God...they are just a bunch of ideas set forth by imperfect humans thus changing them to eliminate major health issues should be an easy process.

    So glad you are shedding light on this.

    :)
    Jan
    Blessings CSP

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  18. bujou said
    >>thre are HUNDREDS of other breeds to choose from - why are the Schipperkee the Buhund the German Spitz the Cairn, the Tibetan Spaniel and the Swedish Valhund not more popular ? - these are all sound, free moving and good tempered breeds - go figure !...

    many short faced dogs have been selected not only to look cute, but to act cute and have cute personalities, aside from the Tibetan Spaniel, the dogs you mention are 'purpose' dogs - not selected for many generations for their companionship ability. People are attracted by looks and personality. They just need educating to buy from breeders who test for the relevant disorders and have a few generations living at home for buyers to meet. Why is it the pet buying public don't RESEARCH these good breeders out?

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  19. I wish insurance companies would charge premiums in realistic proportion to that breed claiming. At the moment, my understanding is that whilst high-risk breeds do cost more to insure, owners of low-risk breeds still sub the owners of high-risk breeds.

    This is rewarding people for buying health-wrecks and penalising people for making responsible decisions.

    If pugs and the like were exorbitant to insure, people may eventually get the message.

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  20. "They just need educating to buy from breeders who test for the relevant disorders "

    no they don't - you don't need a test to SEE that the physiology of these breeds is just all wrong !- you want cute then get a Papillon - you wnat personality -well the Norwich Terrier has it in buckets - there are loads of other companion breeds available - but you know what - the plain fact is that people LIKE their dogs squashed up like this - and those that buy them are just as culpable as those that breed them - one feeds off the other - if you truly want standards to change then just don't buy until they are -

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  21. And what role do you think the Kennel Club should play in this, bijou? Surely while pugs are being produced under the KC stamp of approval it legitimises their production.

    Jemima

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  22. I wonder if the BVA could publish details of the veterinary treatment typically required for each breed and how much each treatment costs.

    e.g. During the course of its lifetime a typical pug would require:

    Luxating Patellas: X treatment costing X hundred of pounds. 50% of pugs require this treatment.

    Eye Conditions: X treatment costing X hundred of pounds. 70% of pugs require this treatment.

    Ditto for collapsed larynx and the myriad of other complaints seen in pugs.

    [I'm making the figures up of course, but you get my gist.)

    This would therefore be an at a glance comparison between healthy and unhealthy breeds. If people knew before they purchased that Golden Retriever puppy, half the litter will eventually die of cancer, they may think again.

    I agree that people do have to be more responsible when purchasing puppies, but many breed clubs underplay the health problems of their breed. The UK Pug Dog Club website is a prime example!

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  23. in regards to patella luxation on the whole the dogs are not often operated on they usually live with it without much problems unless they are grade 3-4, most owners are never aware there pets have it until a vet points it out.
    I feel alot more research should be put into understanding PL, and all dogs used in breeding programs tested for it.

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  24. "And what role do you think the Kennel Club should play in this, bijou? Surely while pugs are being produced under the KC stamp of approval it legitimises their production. "

    nice try Jemima - but go on to sites like epupz and type in Pugs - there are 270 litters for sale - do you honestly think that most of those that advertise and buy from places like this really give a flying ferret that the Kc 'approve' of their breed ? - of course not all they care about is that they can make money out of the public's current love affair with brachychepahlic breeds - if the KC stop registering them then some other register will ....and lets not forget that by keeping breeds within it's umbrella the kc can at least try and work with breed clubs and breeders to improve things ....don't turn this into another of your KC bashing threads - it's the hypocrisy of those that buy breeds like this ( and mostly from puppy farmers NOT from show breeders! ) who then moan about the problems after - just like those who buy a puppy because it's cheaper ...or because they felt sorry for it ...or because it's just down the road ..and then turn round and demand that something is done about puppy farmers !!

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  25. Look again Bijou.......epupz.......third newest ad is a KC accredited breeder

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  26. In fact, most of the purebred pugs on epupz are KC registered, Bijou. So clearly they are not all puppy-farmers - or it's confirmation that the KC registers puppy-farm dogs. (In fact, both these statements are true).

    I understand the concept of keeping breeds under the KC's wings so that improvements can be made. And it would be wonderful if it really happened. But this simply has not happened in some of the worst breeds. Or rather, sure, there's been a few meetings and discussions with breed clubs, but you saw the pictures of the Neos at Crufts, am sure. A disgrace - and this a breed that the KC claims it has been monitoring ever since it was first registered. It would be laughable if it wasn't so dreadfully sad for some of these dogs.

    Another problem is that there is so little KC outreach to 'ordinary' breeders/pet owners and this really needs to change.

    There has been a 500 per cent increase in the number of pugs registered with the KC in the past 10 years: from 871 in 2001 to almost 6,000 last year - a figure that brought in over £70,000 for the Kennel Club in 2010. There are 192 (!) accredited breeders of pugs (for which there are no health test reqs).

    I am not "bashing" the KC. I am giving you the facts. And for all the world it looks like the KC is perfectly happy to endorse breeds like the pug and take the money to register them but do nothing like enough to ensure their health or to educate regarding the breed's issues.

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  27. ..."There has been a 500 per cent increase in the number of pugs registered with the KC in the past 10 years: from 871 in 2001 to almost 6,000 last year " .....and are you really saying that if the KC did not 'approve' this breed they would not be bred or bought ? .....of course they would and without any kind of monitoring at all - after all who apart from the KC and individual breed clubs are involved in health testing, research or breeding protocols for individual breeds - certainly not the alternative 'tin pot' registration systems out there !! -

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  28. It's probably not entirely fair to be singling out the pug here, but... what I'm saying is that there needs to be MORE monitoring; that the KC needs to be MUCH MORE proactive in improving the pug's lot. Being brachycephalic is a pretty awful thing to be for many dogs. At the moment the KC is like Ford continuing to churn out defective vehicles that too-often break down or die without taking appropriate measures to ensure that the next model is better; meanwhile blaming the consumer for buying them.

    To justify their production, you need to be doing everything you can to ensure their health. That is quite clearly NOT being done at the moment.

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