I will start by saying that about 10 years ago, I was one of those people that wanted a pug. I was just in a position where I felt a small breed was best (even though Im a big dog person at heart, I didn't have the lifestyle for one back then) and Im not a fan of terriers or tiny fragile toy dogs that can break legs jumping off sofas. I wanted a small breed that had a happy, easy going nature, and was chunky and robust looking rather than frail and spindly. The pug seemed to tick the boxes for me. I knew the flat face wasn't normal or natural, but I naively assumed that it didn't cause too many issues, because you never see pugs looking as utterly miserable and painful and stressed out as you'd expect an animal who can't breathe to look. The stoicism of dogs fooled me, as I expect it fools pug owners today.
Then I got online and actually really researched the pug properly, and realised the truth, and felt guilty about ever wanting one. Seeing the first PDE also brought home the severity of the issues breeding for that face can cause; I have done a complete 180 on the breed now. In my defence, I never went for the idea of a pug based on its 'cute smushed in face' anyway: I don't find human babies cute, so Im not going to find a dog poorly emulating one to be cute either. I looked to the pug for its personality and 'sturdy' appearance, and I do still think they have lovely personalities.
My issue isn't whether they're 'ugly' or not, and my dislike of the breed is not based on whether they personally appeal to my sense of aesthetics; its not that simple. Its purely a welfare issue. Its sad that people have to brush the welfare concerns under the carpet by implying people only dislike the breed because they think they're ugly. I don't actually CARE if an animal of mine is 'ugly'. I don't have pets for their looks, and no animal here has ever joined our family based on their looks alone. I don't care what my animals look like as long as they're healthy, happy, and their temperament and nature suits my lifestyle. Looks are extremely low on my list of priorities, if they feature at all.
I have a doberman now, a breed I selected, again, not for looks but for temperament and nature. I think my doberman is far cuter than any mashed-faced breed, and I have the added bonus of knowing that he's not struggling to breathe while Im enjoying his cuteness, and that kinda makes a big difference.
These pug people, the sort that make garbage pictures like this, MUST be smart enough to realise that people don't oppose the breed through some mean spirited, shallow, aesthetic reasons; they oppose it on welfare grounds. I cannot look at a pug and find it cute when I know what those deformities result in. Its a mental block; I cannot shut off that part of my brain thats looking at its little squashed nose and non existent nostrils and going 'how does that poor dog breathe?' I can't shut that off now I know the truth.
I just honestly do look at pugs like a 'normal' dog with some horrendous birth defect, ie, I have sympathy for them and a kind of 'bless his heart, it isn't his fault he has to live like that' My reaction isn't one of squealing cuteness but rather one of sadness. And in no way am I being derogatory to the dog by saying I don't like the way it looks; dogs don't care what we think of their looks, its OWNERS who get offended. Possibly because they know we're right? But I can find a being's deformities offputting without hating that being. A dog with a nose that can run and breathe normally is far cuter.
Dobes are definitely a step up structurally but let us not forget they now have a DCM rate of 58% within the breed. To say nothing of HD, wobblers, and problems associated with albinism, blue coats, etc.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's important to remember that the problems created for so many dogs is more than skin deep. There are all those maladies at the genetic level.
The first time I learned just how many dobermans have DCM, I was shattered! Such a good, once very widely used utilitarian breed, brave, loyal, ruined by poor breeding. I have to believe that the deep chests created by the show, and even some of the "working" dogs, have a connection with the heart issues.
Look at old pics of the dobes from the 1900s and you won't see so much exaggeration in the chest.
Ziggy you have literally just described my EXACT feelings about brachie breeds. I've never really been able to put my feelings in words until YOU said the words for me.
"I cannot look at a pug and find it cute when I know what those deformities result in. Its a mental block; I cannot shut off that part of my brain thats looking at its little squashed nose and non existent nostrils and going 'how does that poor dog breathe?' I can't shut that off now I know the truth."
The only brachie breeds I can really look at without wanting to cringe are: Olde Boston Bulldogge, Olde English Bulldogge, Catahoula Bulldog, Banter Bulldogge, Leavitt Bulldog,, the APBT(when it actually has it's proper long nose), the Staffie(when it also has a proper nose) Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, and deer headed chis vs their apple headed brachycephalic counterpart. Basically meaning all the brachie breeds that are still supposed to be free breathers and free whelpers. I don't cringe when I see them because when I see them it gives me hope that one day that dog's that are able to breath well and breed/whelp naturally will be the norm rather then the odd ones out.
UrbanCollieChick, I do agree. I am under no illusion that my breed has superb health, but at least some of these conditions can be tested for; I ensured my boy came from health tested lines, and my breeder was very hot on DCM. He actually told me how he wanted to try breeding dobes to greyhounds or a different breed to get rid of DCM, much as was done with the dalmatian and the pointer in an attempt to eradicate the urinary issues. He was quietly confident you could do similar with dobes and DCM, but he knew he'd be roundly abused by some dobe purists for it, and as he was elderly by then he said it just wasn't something he'd get to do in his life time. He died a year after I got my boy, but he had had dobes for 30 years, and his parents before him. The first thing he told me when I met him was to sit me down and explain about DCM and ensure I knew about it.
Im not sure on the deep chest being related to the heart issue, I don't imagine its that simple; I've known dobes without very deep chests to get DCM just as frequently as deeper chested ones. It is a real issue though, and although my boy is only 2, and has been bred as carefully as possible with regard to the condition, Im still prepared for it to show up perhaps when he's older.
Most breeds do have some kind of condition that plagues them, and at least some of the dobe ones can be tested for. But for some reason, conditions like that don't bug me as much as conformation based ones, presumably because people didn't know DCM was going to pop up in dobes, and never did anything to encourage it, and it is certainly not embraced or appreciated in the breed. With breeding extreme conformation, people KNOW what they're breeding, they know that there is no such thing as a brachy breed that doesn't suffer, but there is such a thing as a dobe that doesn't die of DCM at 5. If all dobes were suffering from birth onwards with an inability to run or play properly, and all the other issues brachy breeds suffer, I'd have to grudgingly accept that they shouldn't be in existence either.
But my boy is 2, fit as a fiddle, runs for miles every day, and there is nothing a dog should be able to do that he can't do. He may well succumb to a disease later in life, but I don't see it the same as brachy dogs because of the above reasons. Obviously dobes need help on their health, which I why I so fiercely defend good ethical breeders who health test, but sadly for every one that does, there are tons who don't bother :(
>people didn't know DCM was going to pop up in dobes, and never did anything to encourage it, and it is certainly not embraced or appreciated in the breed.
I would argue that inbreeding and overusing popular sires count as doing things to encourage it. They might not be deliberately breeding for DCM, but when you are engaging in those breeding practices, you are deliberately increasing the risks of rare harmful recessive diseases becoming common. And when it happens, it's on you.
Yes, I agree. And, actually, Dobes very nearly made it into PDE. The rate of DCM is eye-watering and it's particularly distressing (to their owners) because of the way they die (they drop down dead).
The research we did suggested that it is in ALL lines. Unavoidable. The onus on Dobe breeders is to outcross as a matter of urgency.
Jemima, this is what my breeder really wanted to do, he sat me down and talked about how it would work and so on, but he was in his mid 60s then, and felt he was too old to be the one to take it on, and he died a year later :(
I think what I meant about it not being 'as bad' as breeding brachys is that no good dobe breeder would intentionally breed a dobe that they knew would get, say, wobblers, but even a good brachy breeder is still breeding dogs they know will have a life altering issue from birth onward, just for looks.
Maybe in some people's eyes dobes are just as bad as pugs. But I look at my 2 year old dobe who is CONSTANTLY full of beans, and can run all day, then I look at the 2 year old pug we see down the park that can barely run for more than a minute before it has to have a rest. Both breeds have issues (well, all breeds and crosses of those breeds do) but I suppose its the severity of the condition and how much it affects their day to day life. A dobe dropping dead of DCM is really tragic, and something needs to be done. But honestly, if my boy drops dead at 9 from DCM, at least I know he's had a long, active, normal dog life until that point and not suffered any chronic horrible issues that impaired his day to day doggy life. Basically, I know he's had a good life. Pugs seem to suffer life long, chronic issues from puppyhood onwards, and its unavoidable if you want them to 'look like pugs' and I wonder if they ever really have a 'good' life.
"this is what my breeder really wanted to do, he sat me down and talked about how it would work and so on, but he was in his mid 60s then, and felt he was too old to be the one to take it on, and he died a year later :( "
So sad. I think some breeders do want to change, caught between the show world and the "unknown". Some have changed too of course already.
I didn't know about DCM in Dobermans but I haven't been paying close attention as I stopped liking the breed quite awhile ago. They come across as overly neurotic sensitive to movement light anything which Im sure is due to inbreeding. Like the thoroughbred they can be quite dilly. Not a very peaceful in it's skin and often with a chronic lack of substance. I've never trusted dilly dogs for protection but around homesteads it's a big no.
However I have know some good Dobermans. Some breeders I new where breeding a very good Doberman strain. They had outcrossed to other breeds not exactly sure which. It ended up a quite a large dog only black and tan by design (dark tan) none of the dilutes or liver etc and with very good health and bone but most importantly stable temperaments making them highly suitable for the job of guarding. Looks where all Doberman a large robust Doberman the nose less snippy than the show number too.
They were very popular for a time as watch dogs in Southern Africa where crime is it's very worst in South Africa even maybe in the world. The original breeders emigrated to Australia in fact because of crime so I don't know what happened to their dogs could be they are still out there I will look them up.
My sister had three, I like them very much for Dobs. She lived on a farm in South Africa. One day they were given time out to relax and play as usual so all three set off to patrol the forested area of her garden, which usually meant chasing the poor Nyalas to distraction. Only two ever came back.
John the largest never returned. Im wondering now if he didn't drop dead with DCM. It was very strange and a mystery. He was in his prime. Even though the garden had well maintained electric game fencing around the entire perimeter, leopard proof too as they cut a wide break his body was never found.
Then his sister dropped dead. At that time my sister and her family also emigrated to Australia because of crime so they didn't pursue it or get an autopsy or anything like that. The last of the three lived a good long life in suburbia (always safer LOL).
Could be it's quite difficult to get DCM right. I believe humans also get it.
I will never have a pedigree dobe again, while I can have this. But if some in the K.Cs have their way, such breeding will be illegal. "Some" Dobe breeders are very fair and open minded, one even commenting on "how she wished she was a pedigree so I could use her, shes so beautiful". But the way the K.C rules are written, I could never have achieved what I was after in my life time as a K.C member.
Not a breed that lends itself to a mass breeding program, with their intense bond and intelligence. And to introduce an out cross under K.C sanction, thats pretty much how it would have to be done.
It would be nice if there were avenues open to demonstrate the difference a bit of new blood can do, what could be had.......... But there are none..
River P, I do know what you mean about a lot of dobes being quite neurotic and flighty these days; I've noticed it too. My boy is from euro working lines, as thats what my breeder was primarily interested in; he's a high drive dog, and insanely intelligent. He is wonderfully protective, and by that I don't mean protective to a huge degree, but protective at the perfect times when it matters. He won't bark at every little noise or react when it is not necessary, but he has an amazing understanding of when something or someone is 'not right', and thats when he steps up to assess the situation.
But even he, who I consider a very 'stable' dobe compared to many, has a few little niggly things such as intense short bursts of tail chasing when he's excited, (and dobes are a breed where OCD has been recognised) and he can have his anxious times when his routine is changed and so on, but as I suffer from anxiety, I wonder how much is him picking up on me..... But suffice to say, I do know what you mean, as when I meet other dobes, the owners often report they are timid or have severe separation anxiety issues or other anxiety issues. My boy is aloof with new people and gives them a wide birth, but he certainly isn't what I'd call a timid or nervous wreck of a dog as some dobes are; he is quite prepared to put on a show of bravado if he feels its warranted, and certainly seems to think very highly of himself :P
I've read in the last year or so about a possible genetic test being developed for DCM, but haven't heard much about that since.
The ONLY thing I can say for DCM is that, often, it is quick sudden and all over in seconds. I know a lot of dobe people who report their dog was running after their favourite ball one moment seemingly apparently healthy, and dropped dead the next. When my dog does go, I would very much hope it would be quick and while he was doing his favourite thing in the world, with no prior suffering or drawn out illness for months beforehand.
Yes. I was looking up standards for Dobermans and "calm" is mentioned in character, I reckon that went out the window awhile ago especially in Showing Dobs.
Same thing with Great Danes strangely enough.
There was for a time the greatest Doberman breed club on the planet, in South Africa. Unfortunately it was during the apartheid regime in that country and most of its members all of which were white of course tended to be Afrikaans white supremacist fascists.
Putting it very mildly the dog was hugely popular. Rallies were held where hundreds many hundreds and hundreds of people came with their Dobermans. All sorts of appraisals, trials and sports, tests including the very popular shutzhond trials and sulki-racing, dogs in harness.
I have nothing against shutzhund trials and performance testing in particular is the way to go but then It was considered the German wunder dog just right for their purposes of rule by fear.
Now things are different and that club is battling to even keep afloat.
Yes it's nonetheless true the dog was far more healthy then as it was pure performance based testing and promotion. However registries were never open but of course.
Now a strain of Doberman, Rottweiller and Shepherd is popular some even use bloodhound and larger mastiff types Danes and the like. I cant imagine all are having a healthy input but the dogs aren't bad some of them.
Whoever created that meme, has know understanding of animal health or welfare. It would be unfair to label any person or creature "ugly," but if pugs seem ugly, it's because they are victims of a breeding program that has intentionally riddled them with birth defects. Obviously, that realization has not gone mainstream yet, but it should, and the sooner the better.
I don't think pugs are ugly, but I don't think we should accept as normal a dog who can't breathe well. It is beyond me that people can hear a dog wheezing, panting and gasping for breath and think that is acceptable. I walked a shelter bulldog today with stenotic nares (not to mention, heartworm) and he plowed along gamely while trying to get air through his deformed breathing apparatus. It hurts to see or hear a sweet dog in this condition, and we need to understand that it doesn't have to be this way.
pugs make me sad, pug owners who think their wheezing gasping pug is the cutest thing ever & cannot see their dog is half dead even boasting about how he makes that cute noise 24 hours a day make me cry. When they proudly breed from said pug I want to strangle them.
Fascinating ... looks like the puggles of today somewhat resemble the pug of the 19th Century. Too bad breeders chose to select for congenital defects in these animals (although the muzzle was still too short, even then). But even without this drift in "fashion," closed registries inevitably lead to death through inbreeding, anyway.
At the end of the day, dogs are southern wolves domesticated 30,000 years ago. And like any animal, be it wolf, cat, cow, chicken, or goldfish, there's a certain amount of change in behavior and appearance that facilitates domestication. Anything beyond that weakens the animal, making it more vulnerable to disease and predation. Today's pugs and many other breeds may be unhealthier than their ancestors by design, but as in this case, even the ancestor was not particularly healthy, anyway.
Shrunken, short-faced domestic wolves (dogs) are not going to be as healthy as their larger, more normally shaped cousins. Dogs come from southern wolves, like the Arabian, Indian, and Iranian, which naturally weigh 40-70 lbs in the wild. That seems to be the ideal size for dogs, too. Any smaller, and they get preyed upon by larger carnivores. Any larger, and they develop cardiovascular and musculoskeletal disorders.
Most of us here realize that muzzle length, ear shape, posture, etc. are all very important for the health of the dog. The historical pug was better in these areas, but it was still highly altered in these respects from the more wildtype morphology of a primitive, working, or sporting dog. I am also arguing that a medium-to-large size is also best for dogs, and the historical pug was still rather small (around 20 lbs, like their descendants today).
At the end of the day, the more you alter the domestic wolf, the more you weaken it. So, although the historical pug may have been better off than today's pugs, it was not as well off as, say, a husky, shepherd, or retriever.
The avarage life span of dogs is different for each breed. The most common life span of dogs is about 12-15 years. Pugs are said to have the avarage life span of 9-14 years but that is only if they manage to die from old age. If you also count the ones who die from things like heat stroke, breathing problems or other things that are related to their genetics or body structure (and not taking things like accidents into account) the average life span of pugs is only 6.5 years. That is the problem.
Lifespan data are hard to come by and often subject to reporting bias (dogs dying from accidents, or as puppies often don't get counted). The Finnish KC keeps comprehensive records and publishes them online. According to this source, many breeds have lifespans under seven years. Pugs average 8 yr 7 mo, which isn't bad . . . beats, for example, the AmStaff, at 5 yr 2 mo. Almost all molasser breeds are much worse. See: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmTerveystilastot.aspx?R=286&Lang=en
I know the Volpino Italiano and New Guinea Singing Dog can easily live past 20, so mid-late teens should be "average", if it wasn't that the vast majority of dogs today are pretty much bred to be unhealthy.
Personally, I think some (not all) pugs are gorgeous - there's something generally very friendly about their expression and disposition. They're not striking dogs like, say, the husky or a Golden, but they have a certain charm. I may be a bit biased, having met quite a few pugs and always finding them to be friendly, affable and sweet natured. They're beautiful on the inside!
Having said that, I wouldn't own a "showy" pug, certainly not a super flat faced one, but then I've met some pugs with apparent "faults" such as uncurled tails and few wrinkles that I'd take home. I wouldn't want to buy a pug though, even with their lovely temperaments it would feel a bit like paying in to animal cruelty.
Im afraid I just love that little dog. Eyes always get me and these also don't look good sadly. My JRT has an upturned whip nose like a fox and beady button eyes compared and I love it too.
Obviously its a silly picture whose aim is too pull on your emotions to what end Im not sure as I don't know the context if there is even any, but it does certainly make light of the fact that dogs like these really suffer. Uninformed and not funny.
I find all dogs charming some more than others but aren't they all even the "ugriest".
Of course I can see this dog has problems due to the actions of unscrupulous pedigree dog breeders, it could be an ex champ same same but being an equal opportunities kind of person I believe with very little effort they could be vastly improved too.
Fourteen years at the vets no no no and NO.
No I wouldn't go out of my way to choose a puppy/dog bred like this not even from a shelter, never not my game.
Dogs live far too short a life at the best of times and get into all sorts of trouble doing so robust health as a starter has to be my number one priority.
Thing is the pug even the show pug has definitely got a lot going for it, it's incredible lust for life. They are a busy, happy, affectionate little dog some might even say hyper, now if only their health didn't let them down so horribly.
It's honestly just so unfair.
Wouldn't that be wonderful for such a lovely little dog a long, healthy life. I would probably have three by now all black.
This could explain some of the hyper but not all. Im sure the friendly loving gentle yet enthusiastic nature is there.
I have befriended a few pugs. One who lives at the hardware store on Tung Choi it's an elderly charcoal sooty sort of colour pug, they said he was twelve four years ago! Very small little girl eyes not too good, anyway she comes out from the warehouse snorting and puffing to greet me every time. Snuffles up and cuddles and still has that playful "Im so glad your here" attitude even at her what must be great age for any dog.
The owner just calls out my name and she comes running, well more like hopping almost on the spot but she gets there snorting and puffing face bright and happy looking for me.
Most seem absolutely delightful little characters IMO anyway.
I knew a very well known botanists/naturalist (now dead) who had amongst others black pugs as house dogs, they all had something badly wrong with their eyes. All five where completely blind having huge disks of almost solid black for eyes. Even with this they were the most cheerful funny charming little things on four feet. They got around the house entirely by smell and hearing.
Without fail they were always all over me within five minutes of arriving, it was a large house too so they had to come some distance from the Kitchen to the library. My reeking of dog and horse no doubt helped a lot too.
It is sad and such a pity for such a charming breed. When they could be so healthy.
Thanks to Jemima, now that I know what I'm looking at, I don't see cute bug eyes - I see deformed eyes that POP OUT easily, and are prone to a shopping list of congenital diseases. I don't see a cute smushy face - I see a muzzle that has disappeared, nostrils that can't open wide enough to breathe, and folds of skin that will develop infections. I don't see a dog that is a 'house dog' - I see a dog that can't go outside if it's over 75 degrees because it might keel over in the heat. I don't see a pedigreed treasure - I see the brutal result of man's selfish indifference to everything but his own pleasure, a fellow creature whose very genetic structure has been altered with little hope for salvation. I don't see one hurting animal - I see an entire breed brought to the brink of ruin for no other reason than vanity and amusement. So no, I don't see cute - I see suffering at the deepest level.
My heeler x rottie bitch is no beauty; many would call her "plain" or even "ugly". She's thickset and somewhat resembles a tank. When she runs and chases the other dogs and/or the quad bike she's beautiful to watch. She's sleek and shiny and runs like the wind. She jumps across logs and through fences. She bounces at the other dogs and plays chase with her favourite cat; sometimes one in front, sometimes the other. It's her love of life and joy in movement that's beautiful. She's a ball of muscle and one of the fittest dogs you'll ever see; that to me is beauty. So sad that this simple happiness is denied to some dogs.
I find this genetic deformity unaesthetic. It does not please the eye. It is not harmonious.
The dog is ugly.
To put it bluntly, if people were not constantly presented with images of such deformity, to the extent that the mutant features became commonplace and unremarkable, we would all startle and shriek a little in shock if we once saw a dog so afflicted.
Not that I disagree particularily or anything as much as good looks are indeed rather subgective as long as it has symmetry we seem to like all sorts but "the look" brachys have (preferably not extreme) is apparently instinctualy attractive to humans.
Its one of the reasons babies apparently look like they do, large bulbouse forehead, tiny blob of a nose on a sunken upcurved nose (great push back) bridge, big wide eyes spaced apart, when we see that our instincts apparently kick in to protect. Well most of us.
Maybe thats why they have been so popular and people go ga ga over dogs like these?
It could be we are simply hard wired to adore? LoL
I guess I'm not human then because babies and brachies are instinctively ugly to me. I have the urge to run away rather then protect them. Give me a teenager to take care of any day over a baby. TO ME babies look like little aliens with their giant googly eyes, large forehead, big cheeks, and chubby appendages.
I think River P is correct - most humans and animals are hard wired that way to find neotenous features emotionally over whelming - our instinct is to protect them, even though we may not even be genetically related. How powerful is that?! We are mere envelopes for our genes and there is stuff going on at a genetic level that we are not conscious of.
However, humans through the process of an amazing evolution have developed a massive pre-frontal cortex in our brains with highly developed frontal lobes and that allows us self awareness. Therefore, just because you FEEL a certain way about something ( emotionally pulled towards brachycephalic dogs/animals/babies) you don't have to ACT on it. The logical part of my brain allows me the following rationality when it comes to having an opinion on these deformed animals - to understand the education I've had regarding evolutionary biology and apply it in context; the values I hold regarding animal welfare and the evidence that proves these types of creatures suffer. Therefore, I make a RATIONAL decision to not support this type of deliberate cruelty, even though I may find some types of brachycephalic dogs 'cute' to look at. Frenchies just do it for me. But I would never buy one! In fact, if they quit breeding them tomorrow it would be a GOOD thing in my humble opinion.
There are a lot of people in the world who do not understand how to use their brain effectively and safely. I would say that the people who continue to breed deformed and sick dogs and make them look 'human' are emotionally incontinent and not very self aware.
I had a hard time gathering my thoughts on this one.
Okay, yes, many people, myself included, have hard-wired instincts to find this sort of deformity cute rather than ugly. But we also have a responsibility to overcome our "programming". Those same instincts that tell us babies are adorable, also tells us that their crying is stressful and cannot be ignored - http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/17/crying-babies-hard-ignore - and activates the primitive parts of our brain associated with flight or fight responses. But we do not okay people who have a melt down and shake their baby. We should not okay people who breed for this deformity.
Thank heavens I can over ride my instincts not least the urge to murder people who rush into lifts before they have emptied. I dont think its natural to live like this in Hong Kong. There must be a maximum persons per square foot before we go primitive and start eating each other.
All dogs are cute because they have that neonatal thing happening as a result of domestication. Wolves I find unless they are in fact cubs rather alarming to look at. This also attracts and not only neccesarily like baboons around a python but in it's shadow you feel safer somehow for making its aquaintance.
The most alarming animal I came across was a barracuda while snorkling off the keys of Florida, it looked like a large wolf I was petrified it would attack me at any moment out of the blue shadows of the deep. It was a monster. Something I would ordinarily happily catch and eat.
Brachys are cute to us safe and attracting. Less wolf muzzle.
How stupid is it to attack people's opinion and choice! If you think pug's are ugly it's your choice. If you think they are beautiful then it is a choice as well. Posting this reflects your true motive.... attack people's choice... nice one.
Not sure whose meant to be attacking who but Nonymouse do you find pugs attractive then?
I have to say on reflection there are some dogs I do find a bit scary looking bulldogs for one.
This is because one pushed me over as a child smothering me while trying to hump me.
I couldn't lift him off or get away for ages, all I saw was a big wide toothy slobbering grin bearing down on me. It had clasped onto me like a giant grinning rutting toad. The grass was wet so I kept slipping back down a bank with him on top.
I was about ten I suppose and William who never left the gardeners cottage used to rush at me every time I rode past on my pony. That one fatal time the gate was mysteriously open and I was on foot.....I made a run for it but to no avail.
It was one functional bulldog is all I can say, they certainly don't make them like that anymore.
He used to sprint incredibly fast like a train only sideways, a 400 meters sprint from the house then slam on breaks just before the closed gate sending gravel flying, huffing and puffing like a bull.
I was terrified that day, but oddly enough now Im older I can see he must have really liked me too in a gay kind of way.
I often find looking at a lot of brachies rather distressing. I see their bulging eyes, stenotic nares, sometimes bowed legs, and hear there labored breathing and I want to cry. My ears are quite sensitive and very loud breathing is incredibly bothersome to me. I have asthma, so often times when I hear them huffing and puffing I get a sort of tightness in my chest. If I'm around long enough MY asthma may even start to act up. Something so distressing can NEVER be cute to me no matter what my "instincts" are telling me. I instinctively want to run away from the noise that is so distressing to me. The fact that people find brachies "cuter" to me then dogs and/or Cani Lupus like the New Guinea Singing Dog, Carolina Dog, Canaan Dog, Korean Jindo, and Dingo is confusing to me, but people are entitled to their own opinions.
Daniela. I would never refer to the list of dogs you mention as 'cute.' perhaps beautiful, magnificent, noble, breath taking. But not cute. Something cute reminds people of how babies or young animals look. Hence why we are inclined to go 'awwwwww'. When I see a Siberian Husky I don't think about cuteness, I think about how I respect his magnificent nature. When I see a Frenchie I tend to react with a primal and primitive cute reaction. However, my education and rational approach to using my brain to alert me to reacting emotionally knows that the dog is actually a walking wreck and that cute feeling quickly turns to sympathy. It is distressing to see them suffer, that's why it is so important to be honest about the human psychology and to empathise and understand why people want to own and breed them.
Or as is so often the case simply uninformed? This is also not necessarily their fault either.
They may be attracted to the cute little neonatal puggles puppy (or not) and not realise what they are letting themselves in for. Granted no one should buy a dog purely on an emotional pull but it seems to be very common.
We the consumer seem to take health for granted in pedigree dogs and we should imo given the often high asking price and hype. The reality is very very different though as we mostly all here by now know.
I wouldn't go so far as to call people who buy them "evil sons of bitches" and in fact I feel desperately sorry for some of them. Its after all very heart breaking to have your little muggsel battle to breath end up paralysed or in any kind of pain at all. It is, its very distressing all round. It's also prohibitively expensive for a lot of owners causing even more distress as they want to do everything possible to help.
What makes it all so ridiculous is even if you do your homework and a bit of research you are still left as vulnerable as if you bought that puppy straight from a window display.
Breeders, clubs etc will even list all the ailments their breed suffers from as though this is normal. Its like reading side-affects on a packet of pills. Instead you incorrectly assume in this case that none of it will happen to you if you buy from a "responsible breeder". Even better one who has had success in the show ring, those dogs must be healthy they're winning!
This is what they tell you to believe, that they are the responsible option! With an AKC or KC or KKUSH stamp seal of "approval".
Buyer beware.
I think people who show and breed dogs knowing full well that their breeding practises are causing the diseases defects and misery are "indeed evil sons of bitches". That's anyone who in fact in-breeds and line breeds.
As far as I understand it there is no pedigree dog breed or mutt or "type" alive where this can be considered "responsible" even short term. It does however give the breeder a quick track to success in the show ring. This is deplorable that they are rewarded by these kennel clubs.
Even zoos try and avoid inbreeding at all costs. The survival of some species depends on it.
The buyer, consumer and the dogs are who suffer.
With few exceptions the "responisble" show breeder has a ready market of suckers and is rewarded.
That picture strikes me as being a conscious attempt to parallel campaigns against mobbing children who look different - "If you think redheads are ugly, it´s because you´re stupid". "If you think a child with Down´s syndrome is ugly, it´s because you´re stupid". Whoever made it should be ashamed. I contribute in a small way regularly to an organization that provides free corrective surgery for children born with a congenital deformity, a cleft palate. Whenever the reports from that organization come and I see the before-and-after pics of those kids, I feel this deep joy and contentment. Somewhere a child can eat and drink and smile again and it´s more beautiful to see the restored faces than I can put into words. Does anybody think I feel like that because I think that the KID with the cleft palate is ugly? The only ugly thing about the modern pug version is the callous ignorance of people who breed for deformity.
People have different opinions and tastes of dogs looks,it's nothing new-some people think Pit bulls,Greyhounds,Borzoi and plenty of functional dogs as ugly,the issues with Pugs really have little to do with looks. Some Pugs do look ugly to me,the one in the pic not as much but the issue is is that their "cute" looks often relate to health problems. Kind of like dogs with stenotic nares do not look any worse than dogs with open nostrils,and if it had no health reproductions I would have no issue with it,but it's just not the case.
I wonder if some breeds or types draw unnecessary focused by other dogs simply for the way they look, though.
A bit of a tenuous connection but my Borzoi coursed one of my grandmothers Cairn terriers with tragic consequences. His eyesight was perfect. Obviously gameness led him to believe she was some kind of hare darting through the veldt. Poor little girl she insisted in not being left behind and coming with on long outrides. It was heart breaking. I screamed my lungs out trying to stop him but it was all so quick.
She was a very fit little dog growing up with assorted hounds it came naturally to want to join in. The Borzoi wasn't aggressive at all to our dogs a perfect gentleman but was very anxious about strange dogs and hyper keen when he spotted jackal. We lived on a farm and none of our dogs were or needed to be socialised except the little ones that took permanent front seat on trips to the village.
Maybe looking the same colour and size of a rabbit is not the best idea.
Pug lovers should breed pugs to have better conformation: a longer muzzle, more open nostrils, less round more normal for a dog head, regular back length to shoulder length ratio - not so short of a back, a normal tail, normal dog eyes - not popped eyes. But they can still keep the Pug nature and coat. Pugs will still be Pugs, but better.
I think that pugs, while being cute are also struggling constantly to breathe. And I agree with you, maybe like if they had longer noses and a face that wasn't so smooshed they would do better.
If you think pugs are cute... It's because you're naive, misinformed or ambivalent about animal health and welfare.
ReplyDeleteI will start by saying that about 10 years ago, I was one of those people that wanted a pug.
ReplyDeleteI was just in a position where I felt a small breed was best (even though Im a big dog person at heart, I didn't have the lifestyle for one back then) and Im not a fan of terriers or tiny fragile toy dogs that can break legs jumping off sofas.
I wanted a small breed that had a happy, easy going nature, and was chunky and robust looking rather than frail and spindly.
The pug seemed to tick the boxes for me. I knew the flat face wasn't normal or natural, but I naively assumed that it didn't cause too many issues, because you never see pugs looking as utterly miserable and painful and stressed out as you'd expect an animal who can't breathe to look. The stoicism of dogs fooled me, as I expect it fools pug owners today.
Then I got online and actually really researched the pug properly, and realised the truth, and felt guilty about ever wanting one. Seeing the first PDE also brought home the severity of the issues breeding for that face can cause; I have done a complete 180 on the breed now.
In my defence, I never went for the idea of a pug based on its 'cute smushed in face' anyway: I don't find human babies cute, so Im not going to find a dog poorly emulating one to be cute either. I looked to the pug for its personality and 'sturdy' appearance, and I do still think they have lovely personalities.
My issue isn't whether they're 'ugly' or not, and my dislike of the breed is not based on whether they personally appeal to my sense of aesthetics; its not that simple.
Its purely a welfare issue.
Its sad that people have to brush the welfare concerns under the carpet by implying people only dislike the breed because they think they're ugly. I don't actually CARE if an animal of mine is 'ugly'. I don't have pets for their looks, and no animal here has ever joined our family based on their looks alone.
I don't care what my animals look like as long as they're healthy, happy, and their temperament and nature suits my lifestyle. Looks are extremely low on my list of priorities, if they feature at all.
I have a doberman now, a breed I selected, again, not for looks but for temperament and nature.
I think my doberman is far cuter than any mashed-faced breed, and I have the added bonus of knowing that he's not struggling to breathe while Im enjoying his cuteness, and that kinda makes a big difference.
These pug people, the sort that make garbage pictures like this, MUST be smart enough to realise that people don't oppose the breed through some mean spirited, shallow, aesthetic reasons; they oppose it on welfare grounds.
I cannot look at a pug and find it cute when I know what those deformities result in. Its a mental block; I cannot shut off that part of my brain thats looking at its little squashed nose and non existent nostrils and going 'how does that poor dog breathe?' I can't shut that off now I know the truth.
I just honestly do look at pugs like a 'normal' dog with some horrendous birth defect, ie, I have sympathy for them and a kind of 'bless his heart, it isn't his fault he has to live like that' My reaction isn't one of squealing cuteness but rather one of sadness. And in no way am I being derogatory to the dog by saying I don't like the way it looks; dogs don't care what we think of their looks, its OWNERS who get offended. Possibly because they know we're right? But I can find a being's deformities offputting without hating that being.
A dog with a nose that can run and breathe normally is far cuter.
Very well said.
DeleteDobes are definitely a step up structurally but let us not forget they now have a DCM rate of 58% within the breed. To say nothing of HD, wobblers, and problems associated with albinism, blue coats, etc.
DeleteTwo wrongs don't make a right, but it's important to remember that the problems created for so many dogs is more than skin deep. There are all those maladies at the genetic level.
The first time I learned just how many dobermans have DCM, I was shattered! Such a good, once very widely used utilitarian breed, brave, loyal, ruined by poor breeding. I have to believe that the deep chests created by the show, and even some of the "working" dogs, have a connection with the heart issues.
Look at old pics of the dobes from the 1900s and you won't see so much exaggeration in the chest.
Ziggy you have literally just described my EXACT feelings about brachie breeds. I've never really been able to put my feelings in words until YOU said the words for me.
Delete"I cannot look at a pug and find it cute when I know what those deformities result in. Its a mental block; I cannot shut off that part of my brain thats looking at its little squashed nose and non existent nostrils and going 'how does that poor dog breathe?' I can't shut that off now I know the truth."
The only brachie breeds I can really look at without wanting to cringe are: Olde Boston Bulldogge, Olde English Bulldogge, Catahoula Bulldog, Banter Bulldogge, Leavitt Bulldog,, the APBT(when it actually has it's proper long nose), the Staffie(when it also has a proper nose) Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, and deer headed chis vs their apple headed brachycephalic counterpart. Basically meaning all the brachie breeds that are still supposed to be free breathers and free whelpers. I don't cringe when I see them because when I see them it gives me hope that one day that dog's that are able to breath well and breed/whelp naturally will be the norm rather then the odd ones out.
UrbanCollieChick, I do agree. I am under no illusion that my breed has superb health, but at least some of these conditions can be tested for; I ensured my boy came from health tested lines, and my breeder was very hot on DCM.
DeleteHe actually told me how he wanted to try breeding dobes to greyhounds or a different breed to get rid of DCM, much as was done with the dalmatian and the pointer in an attempt to eradicate the urinary issues. He was quietly confident you could do similar with dobes and DCM, but he knew he'd be roundly abused by some dobe purists for it, and as he was elderly by then he said it just wasn't something he'd get to do in his life time.
He died a year after I got my boy, but he had had dobes for 30 years, and his parents before him. The first thing he told me when I met him was to sit me down and explain about DCM and ensure I knew about it.
Im not sure on the deep chest being related to the heart issue, I don't imagine its that simple; I've known dobes without very deep chests to get DCM just as frequently as deeper chested ones. It is a real issue though, and although my boy is only 2, and has been bred as carefully as possible with regard to the condition, Im still prepared for it to show up perhaps when he's older.
Most breeds do have some kind of condition that plagues them, and at least some of the dobe ones can be tested for.
But for some reason, conditions like that don't bug me as much as conformation based ones, presumably because people didn't know DCM was going to pop up in dobes, and never did anything to encourage it, and it is certainly not embraced or appreciated in the breed.
With breeding extreme conformation, people KNOW what they're breeding, they know that there is no such thing as a brachy breed that doesn't suffer, but there is such a thing as a dobe that doesn't die of DCM at 5.
If all dobes were suffering from birth onwards with an inability to run or play properly, and all the other issues brachy breeds suffer, I'd have to grudgingly accept that they shouldn't be in existence either.
But my boy is 2, fit as a fiddle, runs for miles every day, and there is nothing a dog should be able to do that he can't do. He may well succumb to a disease later in life, but I don't see it the same as brachy dogs because of the above reasons. Obviously dobes need help on their health, which I why I so fiercely defend good ethical breeders who health test, but sadly for every one that does, there are tons who don't bother :(
>people didn't know DCM was going to pop up in dobes, and never did anything to encourage it, and it is certainly not embraced or appreciated in the breed.
DeleteI would argue that inbreeding and overusing popular sires count as doing things to encourage it. They might not be deliberately breeding for DCM, but when you are engaging in those breeding practices, you are deliberately increasing the risks of rare harmful recessive diseases becoming common. And when it happens, it's on you.
Yes, I agree. And, actually, Dobes very nearly made it into PDE. The rate of DCM is eye-watering and it's particularly distressing (to their owners) because of the way they die (they drop down dead).
DeleteThe research we did suggested that it is in ALL lines. Unavoidable. The onus on Dobe breeders is to outcross as a matter of urgency.
Jemima, this is what my breeder really wanted to do, he sat me down and talked about how it would work and so on, but he was in his mid 60s then, and felt he was too old to be the one to take it on, and he died a year later :(
DeleteI think what I meant about it not being 'as bad' as breeding brachys is that no good dobe breeder would intentionally breed a dobe that they knew would get, say, wobblers, but even a good brachy breeder is still breeding dogs they know will have a life altering issue from birth onward, just for looks.
Maybe in some people's eyes dobes are just as bad as pugs. But I look at my 2 year old dobe who is CONSTANTLY full of beans, and can run all day, then I look at the 2 year old pug we see down the park that can barely run for more than a minute before it has to have a rest. Both breeds have issues (well, all breeds and crosses of those breeds do) but I suppose its the severity of the condition and how much it affects their day to day life.
A dobe dropping dead of DCM is really tragic, and something needs to be done. But honestly, if my boy drops dead at 9 from DCM, at least I know he's had a long, active, normal dog life until that point and not suffered any chronic horrible issues that impaired his day to day doggy life. Basically, I know he's had a good life.
Pugs seem to suffer life long, chronic issues from puppyhood onwards, and its unavoidable if you want them to 'look like pugs' and I wonder if they ever really have a 'good' life.
"this is what my breeder really wanted to do, he sat me down and talked about how it would work and so on, but he was in his mid 60s then, and felt he was too old to be the one to take it on, and he died a year later :( "
DeleteSo sad. I think some breeders do want to change, caught between the show world and the "unknown". Some have changed too of course already.
I didn't know about DCM in Dobermans but I haven't been paying close attention as I stopped liking the breed quite awhile ago. They come across as overly neurotic sensitive to movement light anything which Im sure is due to inbreeding. Like the thoroughbred they can be quite dilly. Not a very peaceful in it's skin and often with a chronic lack of substance. I've never trusted dilly dogs for protection but around homesteads it's a big no.
However I have know some good Dobermans. Some breeders I new where breeding a very good Doberman strain. They had outcrossed to other breeds not exactly sure which. It ended up a quite a large dog only black and tan by design (dark tan) none of the dilutes or liver etc and with very good health and bone but most importantly stable temperaments making them highly suitable for the job of guarding. Looks where all Doberman a large robust Doberman the nose less snippy than the show number too.
They were very popular for a time as watch dogs in Southern Africa where crime is it's very worst in South Africa even maybe in the world. The original breeders emigrated to Australia in fact because of crime so I don't know what happened to their dogs could be they are still out there I will look them up.
My sister had three, I like them very much for Dobs. She lived on a farm in South Africa. One day they were given time out to relax and play as usual so all three set off to patrol the forested area of her garden, which usually meant chasing the poor Nyalas to distraction. Only two ever came back.
John the largest never returned. Im wondering now if he didn't drop dead with DCM. It was very strange and a mystery. He was in his prime. Even though the garden had well maintained electric game fencing around the entire perimeter, leopard proof too as they cut a wide break his body was never found.
Then his sister dropped dead. At that time my sister and her family also emigrated to Australia because of crime so they didn't pursue it or get an autopsy or anything like that. The last of the three lived a good long life in suburbia (always safer LOL).
Could be it's quite difficult to get DCM right. I believe humans also get it.
This is what I have done.
DeleteI will never have a pedigree dobe again, while I can have this. But if some in the K.Cs have their way, such breeding will be illegal.
"Some" Dobe breeders are very fair and open minded, one even commenting on "how she wished she was a pedigree so I could use her, shes so beautiful". But the way the K.C rules are written, I could never have achieved what I was after in my life time as a K.C member.
Not a breed that lends itself to a mass breeding program, with their intense bond and intelligence. And to introduce an out cross under K.C sanction, thats pretty much how it would have to be done.
It would be nice if there were avenues open to demonstrate the difference a bit of new blood can do, what could be had.......... But there are none..
River P, I do know what you mean about a lot of dobes being quite neurotic and flighty these days; I've noticed it too. My boy is from euro working lines, as thats what my breeder was primarily interested in; he's a high drive dog, and insanely intelligent.
DeleteHe is wonderfully protective, and by that I don't mean protective to a huge degree, but protective at the perfect times when it matters. He won't bark at every little noise or react when it is not necessary, but he has an amazing understanding of when something or someone is 'not right', and thats when he steps up to assess the situation.
But even he, who I consider a very 'stable' dobe compared to many, has a few little niggly things such as intense short bursts of tail chasing when he's excited, (and dobes are a breed where OCD has been recognised) and he can have his anxious times when his routine is changed and so on, but as I suffer from anxiety, I wonder how much is him picking up on me.....
But suffice to say, I do know what you mean, as when I meet other dobes, the owners often report they are timid or have severe separation anxiety issues or other anxiety issues. My boy is aloof with new people and gives them a wide birth, but he certainly isn't what I'd call a timid or nervous wreck of a dog as some dobes are; he is quite prepared to put on a show of bravado if he feels its warranted, and certainly seems to think very highly of himself :P
I've read in the last year or so about a possible genetic test being developed for DCM, but haven't heard much about that since.
The ONLY thing I can say for DCM is that, often, it is quick sudden and all over in seconds. I know a lot of dobe people who report their dog was running after their favourite ball one moment seemingly apparently healthy, and dropped dead the next.
When my dog does go, I would very much hope it would be quick and while he was doing his favourite thing in the world, with no prior suffering or drawn out illness for months beforehand.
Yes. I was looking up standards for Dobermans and "calm" is mentioned in character, I reckon that went out the window awhile ago especially in Showing Dobs.
DeleteSame thing with Great Danes strangely enough.
There was for a time the greatest Doberman breed club on the planet, in South Africa. Unfortunately it was during the apartheid regime in that country and most of its members all of which were white of course tended to be Afrikaans white supremacist fascists.
Putting it very mildly the dog was hugely popular. Rallies were held where hundreds many hundreds and hundreds of people came with their Dobermans. All sorts of appraisals, trials and sports, tests including the very popular shutzhond trials and sulki-racing, dogs in harness.
I have nothing against shutzhund trials and performance testing in particular is the way to go but then It was considered the German wunder dog just right for their purposes of rule by fear.
Now things are different and that club is battling to even keep afloat.
Yes it's nonetheless true the dog was far more healthy then as it was pure performance based testing and promotion. However registries were never open but of course.
Now a strain of Doberman, Rottweiller and Shepherd is popular some even use bloodhound and larger mastiff types Danes and the like. I cant imagine all are having a healthy input but the dogs aren't bad some of them.
Whoever created that meme, has know understanding of animal health or welfare. It would be unfair to label any person or creature "ugly," but if pugs seem ugly, it's because they are victims of a breeding program that has intentionally riddled them with birth defects. Obviously, that realization has not gone mainstream yet, but it should, and the sooner the better.
ReplyDeleteI don't think pugs are ugly, but I don't think we should accept as normal a dog who can't breathe well. It is beyond me that people can hear a dog wheezing, panting and gasping for breath and think that is acceptable. I walked a shelter bulldog today with stenotic nares (not to mention, heartworm) and he plowed along gamely while trying to get air through his deformed breathing apparatus. It hurts to see or hear a sweet dog in this condition, and we need to understand that it doesn't have to be this way.
ReplyDeletepugs make me sad, pug owners who think their wheezing gasping pug is the cutest thing ever & cannot see their dog is half dead even boasting about how he makes that cute noise 24 hours a day make me cry.
ReplyDeleteWhen they proudly breed from said pug I want to strangle them.
If you look at pictures of pugs of the 1800's you can see how beautiful these dogs used to be. They had longer muzzles, long legs and no wrinkles.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_Bernard_Chalon_-_A_favourite_Pug_bitch_%281802%29.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Henry_Bernard_Chalon_-_A_favorite_pug_%281802%29.jpg
Why on earth people weren't satisfied when they had pugs like those and decided to make them flat-faced fraks?
Fascinating ... looks like the puggles of today somewhat resemble the pug of the 19th Century. Too bad breeders chose to select for congenital defects in these animals (although the muzzle was still too short, even then). But even without this drift in "fashion," closed registries inevitably lead to death through inbreeding, anyway.
DeleteAt the end of the day, dogs are southern wolves domesticated 30,000 years ago. And like any animal, be it wolf, cat, cow, chicken, or goldfish, there's a certain amount of change in behavior and appearance that facilitates domestication. Anything beyond that weakens the animal, making it more vulnerable to disease and predation. Today's pugs and many other breeds may be unhealthier than their ancestors by design, but as in this case, even the ancestor was not particularly healthy, anyway.
Shrunken, short-faced domestic wolves (dogs) are not going to be as healthy as their larger, more normally shaped cousins. Dogs come from southern wolves, like the Arabian, Indian, and Iranian, which naturally weigh 40-70 lbs in the wild. That seems to be the ideal size for dogs, too. Any smaller, and they get preyed upon by larger carnivores. Any larger, and they develop cardiovascular and musculoskeletal disorders.
Most of us here realize that muzzle length, ear shape, posture, etc. are all very important for the health of the dog. The historical pug was better in these areas, but it was still highly altered in these respects from the more wildtype morphology of a primitive, working, or sporting dog. I am also arguing that a medium-to-large size is also best for dogs, and the historical pug was still rather small (around 20 lbs, like their descendants today).
At the end of the day, the more you alter the domestic wolf, the more you weaken it. So, although the historical pug may have been better off than today's pugs, it was not as well off as, say, a husky, shepherd, or retriever.
What is the average lifespan of a dog? Most pugs live on average until the age of twelve
ReplyDeleteThe avarage life span of dogs is different for each breed. The most common life span of dogs is about 12-15 years. Pugs are said to have the avarage life span of 9-14 years but that is only if they manage to die from old age. If you also count the ones who die from things like heat stroke, breathing problems or other things that are related to their genetics or body structure (and not taking things like accidents into account) the average life span of pugs is only 6.5 years. That is the problem.
DeleteLifespan data are hard to come by and often subject to reporting bias (dogs dying from accidents, or as puppies often don't get counted). The Finnish KC keeps comprehensive records and publishes them online. According to this source, many breeds have lifespans under seven years. Pugs average 8 yr 7 mo, which isn't bad . . . beats, for example, the AmStaff, at 5 yr 2 mo. Almost all molasser breeds are much worse.
DeleteSee: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmTerveystilastot.aspx?R=286&Lang=en
I know the Volpino Italiano and New Guinea Singing Dog can easily live past 20, so mid-late teens should be "average", if it wasn't that the vast majority of dogs today are pretty much bred to be unhealthy.
Deletetake a close look at the photo - you will see damaged corneas. Discussion over? ;)
ReplyDeleteenlarge the photo and look at the nostrils...is my computer messing with my eyes or are the nares odd?
Deletejulie
Personally, I think some (not all) pugs are gorgeous - there's something generally very friendly about their expression and disposition. They're not striking dogs like, say, the husky or a Golden, but they have a certain charm. I may be a bit biased, having met quite a few pugs and always finding them to be friendly, affable and sweet natured. They're beautiful on the inside!
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I wouldn't own a "showy" pug, certainly not a super flat faced one, but then I've met some pugs with apparent "faults" such as uncurled tails and few wrinkles that I'd take home. I wouldn't want to buy a pug though, even with their lovely temperaments it would feel a bit like paying in to animal cruelty.
Im afraid I just love that little dog. Eyes always get me and these also don't look good sadly. My JRT has an upturned whip nose like a fox and beady button eyes compared and I love it too.
ReplyDeleteObviously its a silly picture whose aim is too pull on your emotions to what end Im not sure as I don't know the context if there is even any, but it does certainly make light of the fact that dogs like these really suffer. Uninformed and not funny.
I find all dogs charming some more than others but aren't they all even the "ugriest".
Of course I can see this dog has problems due to the actions of unscrupulous pedigree dog breeders, it could be an ex champ same same but being an equal opportunities kind of person I believe with very little effort they could be vastly improved too.
Fourteen years at the vets no no no and NO.
No I wouldn't go out of my way to choose a puppy/dog bred like this not even from a shelter, never not my game.
Dogs live far too short a life at the best of times and get into all sorts of trouble doing so robust health as a starter has to be my number one priority.
Thing is the pug even the show pug has definitely got a lot going for it, it's incredible lust for life. They are a busy, happy, affectionate little dog some might even say hyper, now if only their health didn't let them down so horribly.
It's honestly just so unfair.
Wouldn't that be wonderful for such a lovely little dog a long, healthy life. I would probably have three by now all black.
Perhaps the reason they seem so happy is oxygen deprivation ? It supposedly causes euphoria and the more they gasp the more hyper they seem to get.
DeleteThis could explain some of the hyper but not all. Im sure the friendly loving gentle yet enthusiastic nature is there.
DeleteI have befriended a few pugs. One who lives at the hardware store on Tung Choi it's an elderly charcoal sooty sort of colour pug, they said he was twelve four years ago! Very small little girl eyes not too good, anyway she comes out from the warehouse snorting and puffing to greet me every time. Snuffles up and cuddles and still has that playful "Im so glad your here" attitude even at her what must be great age for any dog.
The owner just calls out my name and she comes running, well more like hopping almost on the spot but she gets there snorting and puffing face bright and happy looking for me.
Most seem absolutely delightful little characters IMO anyway.
I knew a very well known botanists/naturalist (now dead) who had amongst others black pugs as house dogs, they all had something badly wrong with their eyes. All five where completely blind having huge disks of almost solid black for eyes. Even with this they were the most cheerful funny charming little things on four feet. They got around the house entirely by smell and hearing.
Without fail they were always all over me within five minutes of arriving, it was a large house too so they had to come some distance from the Kitchen to the library. My reeking of dog and horse no doubt helped a lot too.
It is sad and such a pity for such a charming breed. When they could be so healthy.
Thanks to Jemima, now that I know what I'm looking at, I don't see cute bug eyes - I see deformed eyes that POP OUT easily, and are prone to a shopping list of congenital diseases. I don't see a cute smushy face - I see a muzzle that has disappeared, nostrils that can't open wide enough to breathe, and folds of skin that will develop infections. I don't see a dog that is a 'house dog' - I see a dog that can't go outside if it's over 75 degrees because it might keel over in the heat. I don't see a pedigreed treasure - I see the brutal result of man's selfish indifference to everything but his own pleasure, a fellow creature whose very genetic structure has been altered with little hope for salvation. I don't see one hurting animal - I see an entire breed brought to the brink of ruin for no other reason than vanity and amusement. So no, I don't see cute - I see suffering at the deepest level.
ReplyDeleteMy heeler x rottie bitch is no beauty; many would call her "plain" or even "ugly". She's thickset and somewhat resembles a tank. When she runs and chases the other dogs and/or the quad bike she's beautiful to watch. She's sleek and shiny and runs like the wind. She jumps across logs and through fences. She bounces at the other dogs and plays chase with her favourite cat; sometimes one in front, sometimes the other.
ReplyDeleteIt's her love of life and joy in movement that's beautiful. She's a ball of muscle and one of the fittest dogs you'll ever see; that to me is beauty.
So sad that this simple happiness is denied to some dogs.
I'll say it.
ReplyDeleteI find this genetic deformity unaesthetic. It does not please the eye. It is not harmonious.
The dog is ugly.
To put it bluntly, if people were not constantly presented with images of such deformity, to the extent that the mutant features became commonplace and unremarkable, we would all startle and shriek a little in shock if we once saw a dog so afflicted.
Not that I disagree particularily or anything as much as good looks are indeed rather subgective as long as it has symmetry we seem to like all sorts but "the look" brachys have (preferably not extreme) is apparently instinctualy attractive to humans.
DeleteIts one of the reasons babies apparently look like they do, large bulbouse forehead, tiny blob of a nose on a sunken upcurved nose (great push back) bridge, big wide eyes spaced apart, when we see that our instincts apparently kick in to protect. Well most of us.
Maybe thats why they have been so popular and people go ga ga over dogs like these?
It could be we are simply hard wired to adore? LoL
I guess I'm not human then because babies and brachies are instinctively ugly to me. I have the urge to run away rather then protect them. Give me a teenager to take care of any day over a baby. TO ME babies look like little aliens with their giant googly eyes, large forehead, big cheeks, and chubby appendages.
DeleteI think River P is correct - most humans and animals are hard wired that way to find neotenous features emotionally over whelming - our instinct is to protect them, even though we may not even be genetically related. How powerful is that?! We are mere envelopes for our genes and there is stuff going on at a genetic level that we are not conscious of.
Deletehttp://www.livescience.com/19108-baby-love-human-brain.html
However, humans through the process of an amazing evolution have developed a massive pre-frontal cortex in our brains with highly developed frontal lobes and that allows us self awareness. Therefore, just because you FEEL a certain way about something ( emotionally pulled towards brachycephalic dogs/animals/babies) you don't have to ACT on it. The logical part of my brain allows me the following rationality when it comes to having an opinion on these deformed animals - to understand the education I've had regarding evolutionary biology and apply it in context; the values I hold regarding animal welfare and the evidence that proves these types of creatures suffer. Therefore, I make a RATIONAL decision to not support this type of deliberate cruelty, even though I may find some types of brachycephalic dogs 'cute' to look at. Frenchies just do it for me. But I would never buy one! In fact, if they quit breeding them tomorrow it would be a GOOD thing in my humble opinion.
There are a lot of people in the world who do not understand how to use their brain effectively and safely. I would say that the people who continue to breed deformed and sick dogs and make them look 'human' are emotionally incontinent and not very self aware.
I had a hard time gathering my thoughts on this one.
DeleteOkay, yes, many people, myself included, have hard-wired instincts to find this sort of deformity cute rather than ugly. But we also have a responsibility to overcome our "programming". Those same instincts that tell us babies are adorable, also tells us that their crying is stressful and cannot be ignored - http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/oct/17/crying-babies-hard-ignore - and activates the primitive parts of our brain associated with flight or fight responses. But we do not okay people who have a melt down and shake their baby. We should not okay people who breed for this deformity.
Thank heavens I can over ride my instincts not least the urge to murder people who rush into lifts before they have emptied. I dont think its natural to live like this in Hong Kong. There must be a maximum persons per square foot before we go primitive and start eating each other.
ReplyDeleteAll dogs are cute because they have that neonatal thing happening as a result of domestication. Wolves I find unless they are in fact cubs rather alarming to look at. This also attracts and not only neccesarily like baboons around a python but in it's shadow you feel safer somehow for making its aquaintance.
The most alarming animal I came across was a barracuda while snorkling off the keys of Florida, it looked like a large wolf I was petrified it would attack me at any moment out of the blue shadows of the deep. It was a monster. Something I would ordinarily happily catch and eat.
Brachys are cute to us safe and attracting. Less wolf muzzle.
How stupid is it to attack people's opinion and choice! If you think pug's are ugly it's your choice. If you think they are beautiful then it is a choice as well. Posting this reflects your true motive.... attack people's choice... nice one.
ReplyDeleteSo attacking people who like to create freaks by torture breeding is wrong ackording to you?
DeleteNot sure whose meant to be attacking who but Nonymouse do you find pugs attractive then?
ReplyDeleteI have to say on reflection there are some dogs I do find a bit scary looking bulldogs for one.
This is because one pushed me over as a child smothering me while trying to hump me.
I couldn't lift him off or get away for ages, all I saw was a big wide toothy slobbering grin bearing down on me. It had clasped onto me like a giant grinning rutting toad. The grass was wet so I kept slipping back down a bank with him on top.
I was about ten I suppose and William who never left the gardeners cottage used to rush at me every time I rode past on my pony. That one fatal time the gate was mysteriously open and I was on foot.....I made a run for it but to no avail.
It was one functional bulldog is all I can say, they certainly don't make them like that anymore.
He used to sprint incredibly fast like a train only sideways, a 400 meters sprint from the house then slam on breaks just before the closed gate sending gravel flying, huffing and puffing like a bull.
I was terrified that day, but oddly enough now Im older I can see he must have really liked me too in a gay kind of way.
I often find looking at a lot of brachies rather distressing. I see their bulging eyes, stenotic nares, sometimes bowed legs, and hear there labored breathing and I want to cry. My ears are quite sensitive and very loud breathing is incredibly bothersome to me. I have asthma, so often times when I hear them huffing and puffing I get a sort of tightness in my chest. If I'm around long enough MY asthma may even start to act up. Something so distressing can NEVER be cute to me no matter what my "instincts" are telling me. I instinctively want to run away from the noise that is so distressing to me.
DeleteThe fact that people find brachies "cuter" to me then dogs and/or Cani Lupus like the New Guinea Singing Dog, Carolina Dog, Canaan Dog, Korean Jindo, and Dingo is confusing to me, but people are entitled to their own opinions.
Daniela. I would never refer to the list of dogs you mention as 'cute.' perhaps beautiful, magnificent, noble, breath taking. But not cute. Something cute reminds people of how babies or young animals look. Hence why we are inclined to go 'awwwwww'. When I see a Siberian Husky I don't think about cuteness, I think about how I respect his magnificent nature. When I see a Frenchie I tend to react with a primal and primitive cute reaction. However, my education and rational approach to using my brain to alert me to reacting emotionally knows that the dog is actually a walking wreck and that cute feeling quickly turns to sympathy. It is distressing to see them suffer, that's why it is so important to be honest about the human psychology and to empathise and understand why people want to own and breed them.
DeleteIt's not that pugs are ugly that is the isue but that people who breed and buy them are evil sons of biches
ReplyDeleteOr as is so often the case simply uninformed? This is also not necessarily their fault either.
DeleteThey may be attracted to the cute little neonatal puggles puppy (or not) and not realise what they are letting themselves in for. Granted no one should buy a dog purely on an emotional pull but it seems to be very common.
We the consumer seem to take health for granted in pedigree dogs and we should imo given the often high asking price and hype. The reality is very very different though as we mostly all here by now know.
I wouldn't go so far as to call people who buy them "evil sons of bitches" and in fact I feel desperately sorry for some of them. Its after all very heart breaking to have your little muggsel battle to breath end up paralysed or in any kind of pain at all. It is, its very distressing all round. It's also prohibitively expensive for a lot of owners causing even more distress as they want to do everything possible to help.
What makes it all so ridiculous is even if you do your homework and a bit of research you are still left as vulnerable as if you bought that puppy straight from a window display.
Breeders, clubs etc will even list all the ailments their breed suffers from as though this is normal. Its like reading side-affects on a packet of pills. Instead you incorrectly assume in this case that none of it will happen to you if you buy from a "responsible breeder". Even better one who has had success in the show ring, those dogs must be healthy they're winning!
This is what they tell you to believe, that they are the responsible option! With an AKC or KC or KKUSH stamp seal of "approval".
Buyer beware.
I think people who show and breed dogs knowing full well that their breeding practises are causing the diseases defects and misery are "indeed evil sons of bitches". That's anyone who in fact in-breeds and line breeds.
As far as I understand it there is no pedigree dog breed or mutt or "type" alive where this can be considered "responsible" even short term. It does however give the breeder a quick track to success in the show ring. This is deplorable that they are rewarded by these kennel clubs.
Even zoos try and avoid inbreeding at all costs. The survival of some species depends on it.
The buyer, consumer and the dogs are who suffer.
With few exceptions the "responisble" show breeder has a ready market of suckers and is rewarded.
That picture strikes me as being a conscious attempt to parallel campaigns against mobbing children who look different - "If you think redheads are ugly, it´s because you´re stupid". "If you think a child with Down´s syndrome is ugly, it´s because you´re stupid". Whoever made it should be ashamed. I contribute in a small way regularly to an organization that provides free corrective surgery for children born with a congenital deformity, a cleft palate. Whenever the reports from that organization come and I see the before-and-after pics of those kids, I feel this deep joy and contentment. Somewhere a child can eat and drink and smile again and it´s more beautiful to see the restored faces than I can put into words. Does anybody think I feel like that because I think that the KID with the cleft palate is ugly? The only ugly thing about the modern pug version is the callous ignorance of people who breed for deformity.
ReplyDeleteBodil Carlsson
People have different opinions and tastes of dogs looks,it's nothing new-some people think Pit bulls,Greyhounds,Borzoi and plenty of functional dogs as ugly,the issues with Pugs really have little to do with looks. Some Pugs do look ugly to me,the one in the pic not as much but the issue is is that their "cute" looks often relate to health problems.
ReplyDeleteKind of like dogs with stenotic nares do not look any worse than dogs with open nostrils,and if it had no health reproductions I would have no issue with it,but it's just not the case.
Like!
DeleteI wonder if some breeds or types draw unnecessary focused by other dogs simply for the way they look, though.
A bit of a tenuous connection but my Borzoi coursed one of my grandmothers Cairn terriers with tragic consequences. His eyesight was perfect. Obviously gameness led him to believe she was some kind of hare darting through the veldt. Poor little girl she insisted in not being left behind and coming with on long outrides. It was heart breaking. I screamed my lungs out trying to stop him but it was all so quick.
She was a very fit little dog growing up with assorted hounds it came naturally to want to join in. The Borzoi wasn't aggressive at all to our dogs a perfect gentleman but was very anxious about strange dogs and hyper keen when he spotted jackal. We lived on a farm and none of our dogs were or needed to be socialised except the little ones that took permanent front seat on trips to the village.
Maybe looking the same colour and size of a rabbit is not the best idea.
Pug lovers should breed pugs to have better conformation: a longer muzzle, more open nostrils, less round more normal for a dog head, regular back length to shoulder length ratio - not so short of a back, a normal tail, normal dog eyes - not popped eyes. But they can still keep the Pug nature and coat. Pugs will still be Pugs, but better.
ReplyDeleteI think that pugs, while being cute are also struggling constantly to breathe. And I agree with you, maybe like if they had longer noses and a face that wasn't so smooshed they would do better.
ReplyDelete