***UPDATE 15/9/16***
If you cannot see the photos of Ivan below it's because they were embedded from Ivan's owner's Flickr album. M. Faucheron has now exercised his right to remove them at his end so they will no longer show.
If you missed them, they showed a "hyper-type" harlequin Great Dane with severe ectropion.
Just in case there is any doubt about how bad this dog's eyes are/were, here is the opinion of one of the UK's most senior veterinary ophthalmologists.
Just in case there is any doubt about how bad this dog's eyes are/were, here is the opinion of one of the UK's most senior veterinary ophthalmologists.
"There is marked lower eyelid ectropion and the dog would benefit from surgery (most simply as shortening of the lower lids). This dog will not be able to blink effectively and all kinds of rubbish collects in the ventral fornix, so chronic conjunctivitis is also a feature.
"Great Danes generally have rather poor eyelid anatomy and just look at all the loose skin elsewhere which gives a clue as to why they are so likely to have conformational eyelid abnormalities."
Et pour nos amis français (this dog's breeder is threatening to sue me for defamation - see comments section below):
"Il est marqué ectropion de la paupière inférieure et le chien bénéficieraient de la chirurgie (plus simplement comme le raccourcissement des paupières inférieures). Ce chien ne sera pas en mesure de clignoter efficacement et toutes sortes de collectes d'ordures dans le fornix ventral, la conjonctivite donc chronique est également une caractéristique.
"Les déformations des paupières graves sont celles associées avec soi-disant 'Diamond Eye', car cela provoque à la fois ectropion et entropion.
"Dogue Allemands ont en général assez pauvre anatomie de la paupière et il suffit de regarder toute la peau lâche ailleurs ce qui donne un indice quant à la raison pour laquelle ils sont si susceptibles d'avoir des anomalies de la paupière conformationnels."
(PS if the pix still show it is because you have visited before and your browser has cached them.)
The above picture is one of the first in a series of photographs by French Great Dane owner Arnaud Faucheron. The dog's name is Ivan de la Grisonniere (from a famous French show kennel) and the pictures below follow him from two months to about three years old.
That this dog is loved and has an amazing life in a beautiful part of the world shines through in these pictures - as does Ivan's spirit. But of course, it is overshadowed by how head-shakingly awful it is that anyone could think it was a good idea to breed a dog that looks like this.
The tragedy is that there are thousands of dogs like Ivan (and some even worse) being bred, shown and sold in Europe, where the "hyper-type" predominates.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see how you can help stop this.
That this dog is loved and has an amazing life in a beautiful part of the world shines through in these pictures - as does Ivan's spirit. But of course, it is overshadowed by how head-shakingly awful it is that anyone could think it was a good idea to breed a dog that looks like this.
The tragedy is that there are thousands of dogs like Ivan (and some even worse) being bred, shown and sold in Europe, where the "hyper-type" predominates.
Scroll down to the bottom of the page to see how you can help stop this.
There is a petition calling for urgent action on the Great Dane. You can find it here.
Please, please sign it - and share this post as widely as possible.
I couldn't agree more. I have no idea why judges put up this type, nor do I understand why some breeders like this look.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't understand why Bloodhound breeding went the way it did. Nor do I know why German Shepherd Dogs that can't even stand normally win shows.
But I remember the words to an older song, something about: You can't spit into the wind, pull the mask off the Lone Ranger...
Maybe, before it is too late, a better idea might be to let the Neapolitan Mastiff types take over the Great Dane name.
One does what one can, not what one can't. Nobody can step in front of a speeding train and expect the train to be the one to crumple on impact. That's just not how things work.
Maybe, a more successful option might be to petition to form a new breed, or a break away variety, composed of only purebred Great Danes, but under a different standard and name.
Any name, maybe: Old Variety Great Dane, or German Boarhound, or English Great Dane, or English Carter's Dogs (pulls a cart), or Apollo' Lap Dog, or Canine Pony, or Giant Dog of Queen's Shire, or Hobbit's Pony Dog, or...
The point being to organize a group of GD breeders and work out a healthier new standard which forbids the laterally compressed head, saggy skin, and the red around the eyes.
While your at it, it would be nice to ban breeders and judges who don't care about the health and comfort of the dogs. But I don't know if that can be done.
Because the Neo type great danes are just poor dogs.
DeleteGerman Shepherds, Neopolitan mastiffs, and bloodhounds, they all have working lines there to preserve the breed (although I'd say working bloodhounds would not be easy to find)
If you invent a new name, it becomes a new breed.
Evident with the Fox terrier, Parson Russell Terrier and Jack Russell terrier.
Fox terrier and the JRT were the same breed, but because the KC quickly made the Fox Terrier useless for work, John Russell had his own working line terriers.
They were later registered again, this time as Parson Jack Russell Terriers.
However, they didn't take off, and so to coincide with the AKCs parson russell the name was changed to "Parson Russell"
This year the JRT was yet again registered.
Its a mess, but it seems wherever you change a name and have a different appearance, a new breed appears and if its popular enough, it will be registered again.
And if you can't win in shows, and the dog is not usable for work, who is going to want to breed it?
There is greater marketing potential in these over exaggerated danes, so even commercial breeders will breed them. All thats left would be pet owners, who wont really make an effort to try to preserve breed type and will breed whats available.
I guess it could work since american danes are much more moderate, but then it will be like the Akita, with two different breeds, The Japanese, and the American Akita.
Ninty percent of owners or or more Im are pet owners! This is what most responsible breeders outside of working dogs should be breeding for and not for the show ring as we know where that leads to.
DeleteNo one should want a dog that looks like this whatever it's called. The pain and discomfort in the eyes alone should be enough to put anyone off. It's qualzucht breeding. It shouldn't be humanly possible that anyone finds this of value, whether one yearns for the classic boerhound or the show dogs of yesterday or not.
It seems it's neccesary to point out that this is not OK which is the shocking part!
Yes as we can all see there is a delightful doggie in there.
What a monsterous thing to do to intentionaly burden a dog with a dysfunctional body.
By pet owners, I mean those that just own a pet and feel like breeding it. I don't know how to describe it, just a sort of irresponsible breeder except just an average Joe who isn't really breeding for much of a reason and without much of any knowledge at all. Sort of just puts his wonderful, "perfect" fidoette with this random dog from the same breed to produce a random litter with no knowledge or effort.
DeleteThat kind of breeder I mean.
And it is necessary to point this conformation in GD is not OK, because those that breed these dogs generally believe it is OK, I guess partly because of their own denial.
Their dogs can still move and see, and are relatively happy to their standards, so they don't see the issue.
Oh Ic. Strange I thought he had a nose like a hippo. Small mercies this lovely character could/can actualy breath at least they haven't taken that away from him.
DeleteYes @ 00:38 the show dog has always deviated from the Boerhound type.
ReplyDeleteIm a bit unclear on this series of pictures, though. Is this meant to show by the owner how badly formed this stoic dog has been from puppy to adult. Or is it meant as nothing more than happy snaps!?
Im not seeing happy snaps myself but who knows what the owners intent is with these pictures!?
I will definitely sign the petition, its important that there is awareness of this issue if nothing else. A large enough number making a big enough noise will always be noticed.
No dog should be bred like that, Great Dane, Basset Hound, Neapolitan, Coon Hound, St Bernard, Shar Pei.....no breed, it's a travesty.
Look at his eyes. That poor dog...
ReplyDeleteI have been to a few shows since you first raised this issue and am happy to say that the majority of Danes I have seen here (UK ) do not appear to be anything like this type, and hopefully with the heads up on this trend UK breeders will stick to the breed standard part of which says of heads: "....Cheeks showing as little lumpiness as possible, compatible with strength. Underline of head, viewed in profile, runs almost in a straight line from corner of lip to corner of jawbone, allowing for fold of lip, but with no loose skin hanging down......." and shy away from this exaggeration.
ReplyDeleteOMG! His eyes!
ReplyDeleteI have seen many Great Danes at shows in America with very laterally compressed muzzles and saggy lower eye lids.
ReplyDeleteBy "laterally compressed muzzles" I mean: look at the dog while he is facing you, look at the muzzle not the head, does the muzzle appear deep because there is so little distance from the left to right side of the dog's muzzle?
From the side a Great Dane's head might look too Mastiff, yet still be far too narrow in the muzzle when viewed from the front.
Im not so sure this travesty is all about muzzle length, but rather about big and extreme, excessive hanging skin. There are many dogs with much shorter muzzles without this problem from spitzes to moderate brachycephalic breeds even labradores.
DeleteSome (not many) more moderate showing GDs muzzles only look longer because they dont have that curtain of flew, but the Axe shape of the flew etc seems very popular in America already.
I think they were talking about muzzle width not length. There are however plenty of breeds with narrow muzzles without excess skin - so the issue still isn't about the width of the muzzle it's the deliberate breeding for excess skin that is the problem.
DeleteWhy, oh why would anyone do this? Why? Just why?
ReplyDeleteAttention, des poursuites sont engagées contre vous pour de vol de photos
ReplyDeleteThat poor dog can't see properly except for a few seconds while he's running and his skin folds flap up... He's going around most of his life with his eyes half shut... it must be very uncomfortable as well to have air, wind, dust etc constantly getting to the inner part of his eyelids...
ReplyDeleteWhy would anyone want a dog like this?
I have found the perfect quote. I will think of it again, repeatedly, whenever I read about the problems in purebred animal breeding.
ReplyDelete"Mitt der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens" - Johann Christoph Friedrich
Of course, I read it in English: "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain".
Une plainte à été déposé contre vous pour diffamation et utilisation de photos frauduleusement
ReplyDeleteje suis chantal maudrich et j'ai déposé une plainte auprès du procureur pour diffamation de mon élevage et utilisation frauduleuse de photos sans autorisation
ReplyDeleteJe ne vous crois pas. Et voici pourquoi: seul le propriétaire du droit d'auteur peut intenter une action pour violation du droit d'auteur et clairement le droit d'auteur de ces photographies reste avec Arnaud. (De plus, la façon dont je partage les est légal). En ce qui concerne la diffamation ... bonne chance! Si quelque chose est vrai, il n'est pas diffamatoire.
DeleteWhat happened to the photos? They are showing as "no longer available"
ReplyDeleteSee update above, Yvette...
DeleteDroit d'auteur et copyright
ReplyDeleteLe terme "copyright" désigne la notion de droit d'auteur dans la loi américaine (dans le Titre 17 du United States Code). Contrairement au droit d'auteur en vigueur en France, un dépôt est nécessaire afin de le faire valoir aux Etats-Unis. Les oeuvres ayant fait l'objet d'un dépôt de copyright peuvent ainsi afficher le symbole ©, suivi de l'année de publication, puis du nom de l'auteur (ou de la société ayant déposé le copyright).
Ce formalisme est autorisé en France dans la mesure où il s'applique à toute oeuvre soumise au droit d'auteur. Les mentions "Copyright", © ou "Tous droits réservés" n'ont pas pour autant d'influence sur la protection de l'oeuvre et permettent uniquement de jouer un rôle informatif vis-à-vis du public. D'autre part l'absence de sigle ou de mention du droit d'auteur ne signifie pas que l'oeuvre n'est pas protégée ! Ainsi tous les éléments présents sur Internet (images, vidéos, extraits sonores, textes) sont soumis de facto au droit d'auteur, même si leur accès est libre et gratuit et qu'aucune mention ne précise qu'ils sont protégés !
Mise en garde
Il est essentiel lors de toute utilisation d'une oeuvre ou d'une partie d'une oeuvre d'avoir le consentement de son auteur, au risque sinon d'être condamné à payer des dommages et intérêts pour contrefaçon.
I suggest you read this. The pictures above were *embedded*.
Deletehttps://edri.org/cjeu-embedding-copyright-infringement/
Pas complétement sur que le terme "d'image intégrée" s'applique sur le droit d'auteur en France.
DeleteDans tous les cas, mes images ont été supprimées sur Flick'r (votre source) depuis hier soir. Si elles continuent d'apparaitre sur votre blog, ce n'est plus de l'image "intégrée". Vous êtes donc responsable de leur publication sur votre blog à partir de ce jour.
Salutations.
Arnaud Faucheron
Si vous pouvez encore les voir parce que votre navigateur les a mis en cache. Si vous supprimez votre cache et actualisez la page, vous verrez qu'ils sont allés.
DeleteSi seulement vous pouviez montrer une telle énergie en ce qui concerne l'obtention de vos yeux des chiens réparés.
Are these people even aware of what they're doing? Or are they actually out to see how many ways they can inflict suffering in an animal's life?
ReplyDeleteThat poor dog.
entropion, ectropion and macroblepharia are disqualifying faults according to the FCI breed standard.
ReplyDeleteSo technically no dog suffering from these can be claimed to be a typical specimen of the breed, and therefore should not be sold, advertised or reproduced as such.
It would misleading to the public. To say the least.
Not to mention the European convention against torture breeding...
So a breeder claiming this is a Great Dane according to FCI Standard No. 235... hmmmmmmmm.
A dog that doesn't conform to the Great Dane standard simply isn't a Great Dane.
European convention against torture breeding would only useful if it was enforced. When it comes to it, when all the "officials" support the practice it will not be.
Delete> Si seulement vous pouviez montrer une telle énergie en ce qui concerne l'obtention de vos yeux des chiens réparés.
ReplyDeleteOui! Absolument raison. Cet éleveur est délibérément élevage de chiens d'avoir des difformités physiques douloureuses. Il devrait consacrer plus de temps à étudier les questions de santé et moins de temps se plaindre de «diffamation».
You can argue on how a great dane should look like or how better breed the gd are in the UK, but the main reason why my family is hurt and mad at you is because you make them look like horrid persons that really don't care about their dogs. You are just so wrong. My dad went all thru europe to bring new blood to the breed and he is not famous for winning so many tittles but for his love of the gentle beast. My parents have spend their lifetime loving the great danes, spending nights, shedding tears on sad loss of a dog, who are you to point them out and critising their life achivements to make a point. Ivan is loved, well taken care of. Did you also notice that both his grandfathers were from other famous french kennels ? No of course not. So yes our great danes are this way, they looked differently 40 years ago, I know my house was filled with them, but this is how they are now. Do you want to kill them all and start over ? no, then you should maybe think twice before posting pics of somebody's else dog and making such hurtful comments, on how it might affect them. We are all nice intellingent persons, ready to discuss on how to help improve breeding, but how you did proceed does not show much respect for European breeders like my parents. My name is siegrid Maudrich Duranel. Available anytime to discuss further with you on this subject. And by the way the truth can be also diffamatory in France. If you want to mention famous breeders names of dogs with the same eye pb we can send you a long list in order for you to have a better overwiew of the problem and write an article with real reseach done. And if you think that breeding great dane made my parents wealthy, think again. You are just hurting nice guys
ReplyDeletegood people can do something for what they think is a good reason, but the results wont automatically be good.
DeleteThe fact is, nothing you have done when breeding the dogs has been good at all. And I don't feel the need to censor myself and my opinions just to make some stranger breeding dogs like this happy.
Your dogs are terribly bred. Cry about it if you like. You may love them, but it doesn't mean you are breeding good dogs.
Coming from a famous kennel means nothing. Famous kennels are also run by people, and people are flawed. Just being well known does not remove these flaws.
We want you to stop breeding them to look like this, and to breed healthier dogs. Of course, not kill them, but stop breeding them with this head and body.
Yes, we want you to start over.
Why did you even breed your dogs to look like this? People have already mentioned the health problems with this type of face.
So, Siegrid, your defence is that there are lots of other show-bred Great Danes out there with awful eyes so it's unfair to single you out?
DeleteIvan was picked out because someone sent me the pictures, very upset at how bad his eyes looked. Eyes like this lead to chronic, lifelong discomfort. The point is that Danes never used to have eyes like this and it should not be permitted today. Today's breeders of the "hypertype" Great Dane have made this breed worse. This breed has not been improved in any way. They still die young; still get osteosarcoma; still get bloat; still suffer heart problems.
May I also ask: if the dog is loved, why has he not had surgery to correct it? Perhaps he is no longer alive?
Why would you do surgery? It's "normal" for the breed. And obviously don't kill them, but neutering would be nice.
DeleteYes, Jemima stop hurting those nice guys (What are you like), who like dogs that have eyes that hurt all the time. They really love those deliberately bred deformed dogs and they love everyone to know that as well. Have you any idea how much time, patience and how many healthy puppies that are culled in a breed to end up with a dog looking like above. It ain't easy culling a healthy pup you know, it takes a lot of love of your breed to do that.
DeleteDon't you know that the more deformed you breed a dog, it means it needs more care and love than those rather common looking, run of the mill healthy dogs. Never mind the dog's feelings, how could you be so insensitive to seigrid. lol
Just to make clear... this blog is not suggesting that Ivan's breeders cull healthy puppies.
DeleteIf you want to see what some Great Dane breeders consider controversial, try this photo, said to be in public domain.
ReplyDeletehttps://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fawnequin.jpg
So where do all the fawnequin (and brindlequin) Danes go...?
DeleteI'm not sure I want to know the answer.
Anyone know how common they are?
Off-colour puppies are often the strongest in the litter, while the show coloured puppies lay about their mother, the off colour puppies go exploring, even when they are first born.
DeleteThis seems to cause many of them to end up drowning in the mother's water bucket.
Great Dane breeders of Harlequins, have assured me that Harlequin to Harlequin is the proper way to breed for Harlequin Great Danes. (Hey, you can hear all sorts of ridiculous things ringside).
DeleteOne very winning Harlequin Great Dane breeder said this yielded "100% Harlequin coloured puppies, but you get smaller litters". (Not exactly true, unless the unwanted coloured puppies accidently drown in the water bowl).
Merle (like Harlequin, but without the same white spotting gene) occurs in Collies and Shelties too.
If you want to get up to speed on the problems of Merle to Merle breeding, Chris over at borderwars (Border Collies), has killer posts and trains of comments on the subject.
www.borderwars.com/2014/03/wyndlair-double-merle-collie-kennel-closes.html
Because Merle is a dominant gene, you only need one copy to get a Merle. Merle is a somewhat semi-lethal gene, meaning that a dog with two Merle genes is white, has rectangular pupils (the black spot in the eye), and sometimes has terrible health problems.
To properly breed Harlequins you need to breed a Harlequin to a Mantle coloured Great Dane, but mantle WAS a disallowed colour, so people bred Harlequin to each other, or to black Great Danes (but that produced other not allowed Great Dane colours like Merle and mantle).
Why the club didn't allow fawn or brindle to Harlequin, I don't know. I have seen one fawniquin, and she was beautifully built.
They join their friends the ridgeless Rhodesian Ridgeback, and you know where that is?
DeleteReally? They are still culled today?
DeleteI don't know how many fawnequins are born, nor do I know how many survive, but breeding by GD club rules should result in no fawnequin puppies being born ever.
DeleteFound another photo of a fawnequin:
www.doggenetics.co.uk/harlequin.html
Great Dane breeders usually consider their breed as if it were divided into varieties according to colour.
DeleteBrindle & Fawn are like one variety.
Blue (and some Blacks) are like another variety.
Harlequin and some other Blacks are together in another.
And pure Black variety are another.
Mantle coated Great Danes have been added to the Harlequin variety in some countries, but I don't know if that is true everywhere.
I was told that this was to prevent the Harlequin gene from getting into the Brindle and Fawn Great Danes.
If you look at breeds (like Collies, Shelties, Aussies) that have both rust markings and the Merle gene, you can see that the Merle gene only works where the dog's coat is black.
The rust markings (red stockings, chest spots, under the tail, cheeks, and eyebrow spots) all remain rust coloured.
Since Merle wouldn't always be noticeable on totally red dogs, a breeder could, unknowingly, get double Merle (often handicapped) puppies from breeding two red dogs who have no sign of Merle.
This is why fawnequin is so intriguing. Merle shouldn't be able to work on red, so are Great Danes, not red, but yellow (fawn)?
But if Merle (a dominant gene) does work on fawn Great Danes, then the excuse for keeping the colours separate disappears.
That fawnequin Dane is beautiful - tight eyelids and flews. I could happily admire that dog for a long time, whereas I feel horror and sadness looking at Ivan.
DeleteTo Anon at 17 September 2016 at 05:49, your description of what colors are affected by merle is somewhat off. The color Australian shepherd breeder call "red" is the "small b" of the "brown" gene and is definitely affected by merle. Red merle is one of the 4 acceptable colors (trim colors not included in the four).
DeleteMerle effects are less obvious on lighter-colored dogs like the Great Dane fawns. Sometimes they're more visible on puppies but fade on the adult coat. The lower visibility is one good reason for discouraging sable merles (or in Danes, fawn merles). If the merling has faded into the base color, then people may unwittingly breed two merles together and end up with problematic double merles.
2 Great Danes both with the Merle gene should probably not be bred together. Some of the double merle puppies have problems with hearing or vision.
DeleteLook at the eyes of this Great Dane, one eye is covered with red haw, but look at the black pupil in the center of the other eye.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dogge_Merle_homozygot.jpg
Not all double Merle (homogeneous Merle) dogs are unhealthy.
DeleteI saw a very large little of Great Dane puppies that had 2 double merles with the rectangular pupils (like in goats), both were white with a few Merle patches.
Both were normal healthy puppies. But they both seemed much more intelligent than the other Great Dane puppies in their litter, and much more intelligent than other breed puppies.
For example, when I closed the gate to the pen, both double Merle puppies ran over and tried to work the lock with their mouth.
So I got treats and returned and tried to get the single Merle GD puppies and regular coloured GD puppies to come to the gate and try to get out.
All they did was whine, try to dig under, or try to push the gate.
Even when I tried to show them how to open the gate and used very good smelling treats, none of them could learn.
But when the double merles were lifted back inside the fenced off part of the yard, they quickly found clever ways to get out.
So I spent some time trying to evaluate them. They were simply better at figuring out problems - much better.
Hi Anon 1621,
DeleteI'm Anon 5:49 (Grandpa Anon must have gotten around, because there are so many of us Anons!). Thank you for replying to my comment.
I do understand that Aussies have the chocolate gene and that it does Merle, and now that I think about it, I have heard it called "red", but my mind automatically thinks "chocolate" which is the word I first learned for "bb".
Perhaps, instead of typing "black" being the colour that Merle works on, I should have said "black, or chocolate - sometimes called bb red"? But I was thinking about Great Dane colours at the time.
There are chocolate Great Danes, and some of those also have the Merle pattern, but I have never seen one. There is one site online from a woman who breeds them, they are pretty, and I guess no different from the Merle gene on black or on black mantle, except these also have " bb" chocolate.
But I didn't know about fading, that could be a problem because it is important that breeders be able to see which dogs have the Merle gene and which do not.
The fawniquin in the link looks obviously either pied or Harlequined.
But I have seen a red Chihuahua, said to be purebred, with a bit of blue colour in one eye, said to be from having one Merle parent, and therefore, having a Merle on red coat. I was also shown a tiny bit of grey fur, guessed to be from the Merle gene, making that Chihuahua a cryptic Merle who could pass on the Merle gene, though she didn't appear Merle herself.
Technically, I guess we could have say "The Merle gene only works on eumelanin pigment, not on phaemelabin pigment", but that would fail to get the information across to other people who need to hear it, and I fear it might read a little off putting.
@Anon 16:21
DeleteIn australian shepherds it is brown.
But cream/yellow colour is caused by either recessive red (ee), found in border collies and labradors for example, or sable, found in rough collies as an example.
Hi Sunny Dogs,
DeleteI'm not Anon 16:21, but I thought I'd reply to your comment.
Yes, I guess bb should be called brown, not chocolate, not bronze, and not red.
"Brown" does start with a b, so it should be easy to associate with the letter b.
But breeders sell puppies to the public, and people generally like to say "My new puppy is chocolate", instead of " My new puppy is brown", so I'm guessing the word "chocolate" is going to be in use for years to come.
Besides that, people can think up all kinds of cute yummy names for a chocolate puppy.
It's not science, but it'll probably win anyway.
Maybe we should change the Great Dane standard? Or just the way they are judged.
DeleteI have found sites that have photos of healthy double merles.
According to some of them, double merles without any white markings are often healthy.
In person you can see white markings on a white dog, if he has them, and if you look close.
Merles without white markings can be seen more often in Catahoula Hounds (Louisiana, USA).
If double merles without white markings are less afflicted, we need to start favoring the Harlequin Great Danes who have patches all over their body, instead of favoring the clean white front.
If we did this, maybe double merles wouldn't suffer so.
Here are some double Merle photos and information.
homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/merle.html
@Anon 32:20
DeleteWell, I called it brown because thats the name of the gene, but really it can have a huge range in its colour, including a red-like colour.
@Anon 02:52
Double merles are not healthy, because it removes a lot of the white in the dog. This white can cause problems with lack of pigmentation and can cause hearing and seeing difficulties when it affects the eyes.
Double merles are FAR more likely to cause deafness and blindness than a dog which isn't. Its not right to breed dogs with a higher chance for these problems.
Merling is random as well, and you can't just breed it so the merling covers the ears and eyes.
There is a good reason its banned, which is to stop this breeding.
By photos, you cannot tell if the dog is deaf or blind. And being a double merle doesn't mean with 100% chance the dog will be born deaf or blind, it means the risk is much, much higher.
A double merle without any white markings would be extremely difficult to find.
So we are on the same page, this is a double merle dane with harlequin gene: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/photos/harlieg1.jpg
And this is a double merle dane without harlequin:
http://equinetapestry.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/doublemerle1.jpg
"removes a lot of the white in the dog. "
DeleteI meant to say removes a lot of the pigment in the dogs coat.
Hi Sunny Dogs,
DeleteI looked at your 2 linked photos of double Merle Great Danes.
Interesting, as a dog could have a dominate Harlequin gene, but it wouldn't be seen on the dog, because it is said to only be noticeable on Merle dogs. Which raised the question, what if a red dog, which showed no Merle, had double Merle genes, which didn't affect the coat colour and had the Harlequin gene? Would this triple whammy on the coat color have any noticeable effect on the dog's red colour at all?
But in Catahoula dogs, which are usually Merle, the white gene referred to is the white spotting gene like in Irish White and Piebald White. It is thought that this white gene is harmful when combined with Merle.
In Great Danes, the show bred Harlequins (at least in the US) are preferred to have a more extreme form of the Irish White Spotting gene, which whites out colour everywhere on the dog except on the mantle/blanket area on the back.
It is thought that the percentage of badly affected double merles in Great Danes is higher than that in Catahoulas because the double merle Great Danes also have the extreme Irish White genes and the Harlequin gene.
Perhaps, it would be better for Great Danes to remove the Harlequin and the white spotting gene from the merles?
Or to remove both the Harlequin and Merle genes? Myself, I find the grey/black merles prettier than Harlequins.
So, Siegrid you know more "breeders" that do this sort of thing to dogs ? Tell him to read the standard they are supposed to be breeding to ! Entropion . ectropion , macroblepharia are disqualifications - physical abnormalities are a disqualification - FCI guidelines call for dogs fir for purpose without excessive features - time these so-called "breeders" and judges actually read the damn thing ! Instead of shedding crocodile tears when they're caught raping the breed they purport to love !
ReplyDeleteWhile we're at it please tell your nearest Dane fan that this is also just not OK. Ear mutilation. Makes me sick to my stomach!
ReplyDeleteThis French American import has got so much going on that's wrong with it and they still mutilate its goddamn ears! Looks like a bread knife was used.
The eyes look like they've been sewn up too tight, not sure but the eye opening is too small and narrow for it to see properly.
Does this mean they love this dog, any dog? I sincerely doubt it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/130843288@N06/sets/72157656750535378/
It's a complete horror story from beginning to the end. I find it completely unacceptable that in the year 2016 puppies are legally having their ears butchered in America.
One very good reason to toss any slush fund you have lying around PETA's way!!!
Oh yah PETA apparently don't want anyone breeding dogs at all! Very good idea it would be too if it was true as it's patently obvious many shouldn't be. They shouldn't even own a dog either!
PETA is a charity I and many others would never support. There are far too many good underfunded animal welfare charities which exist without Peta's twisted background philosophy and goals to support. That's all I'll say on the subject.
DeletePETA also euthanize the majority of their dogs they receive in their shelters. And by majority, I mean over 80%.
Deletehttps://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof-peta-kills/#virginia_investigates
https://www.petakillsanimals.com/proof-peta-kills/#petakills
Its both terribly ironic and idiotic at the same time.
PETA support killing dogs simply for the way they look supporting Breed Specific Legislation. Effectively culling dogs due to looks. Something to bear in mind before recommending them.
DeletePETA also save the lives of millions of animals every year through education and activism.
DeleteSomething to bear in mind before slagging them off
To Anon 18 Sept. at 20:10:
ReplyDeleteThe fact that PETA supports BSL is a mark in their FAVOR. First of all, BSL has nothing at all to do with "culling" (i.e., killing) dogs--you pit activists love trying that tack. As I'm sure you know, BSL is to enforce spay/neuter, leashing, fencing and liability insurance for owners of fighting-breed dogs.
And far from BSL being "on looks," these fighting breeds (pit bulls and their close relatives) have been bred to maul and kill anything in sight, without warning or provocation, for 500+ years. Every pit bull in the world today is just a few generations away from being used for dog fighting, as they were extremely uncommon as pets until dog fighting was made illegal in all 50 U.S. states a mere 15 or so years ago. Until the 50's (or maybe later), every pit bull registered in the USA had to win 3 dogfights to gain registry.
Pit bulls are a very pure breed, with breed champions, a written standard, and judges... just like a layperson can Beagles, Poodles, or Golden Retrievers, there is no special "magic" involved in recognizing the physical characteristics of pit bulls and their close relatives. In fact, a recent DNA-based study by the ASPCA showed that 96% of untrained shelter workers could immediately and correctly spot a dog with at least a quarter pit bull in it. I'm sure that far surpasses most peoples' accuracy with other breeds. This shows that pits are quite recognizable to the layperson, as well as to the show judges that have awarded thousands of conformation championships to them.
Back to your "looks" comment: Just like Border Collies have the instinct to circle prey and use eye... and Pointers point at birds... and Jack Russells go to ground after foxes... pit bulls are not immune from their extremely long genetic history of killing. I don't have to "train" or "neglect" my Border Collie for it to circle sheep. And nobody on earth has to "train" a pit bull to maul. That's what the 500 years of genetics are for. The most dangerous thing about pit bulls is how they give no advertisement of when they will attack, often biding their time for years and then killing somebody on their first attack. Unlike other breeds, there are no growls, no barks, no lunging. Just standing around, wagging tails, being petted. Unril they turn and sever the owner's arm, jump a fence and rip limbs and head off a passing dog, etc. I've been studying serious dog attacks daily for almost 5 years now and have spoken with the owners of the pits, as well as the victims. Most are victims themselves of the pit bull advocacy, which tries to claim that pit bulls are "misunderstood nanny dogs" with no recent (or even past) history of violence at all!
The facts show that pit bulls are 150x more likely than other breeds to hospitalize or kill you, and even more likely to kill your pet. Pits kill about 24,000 pet dogs every year in the USA--about 65 a day. Numbers for cats and livestock are similar. Anybody who truly loves dogs will do anything they can to fight FOR BSL.
"...The most dangerous thing about pit bulls is how they give no advertisement of when they will attack, often biding their time for years and then killing somebody on their first attack..."
DeleteInteresting point but have you considered the normal "tell" are things like tails and ears which are often cropped in the States? How about banning cropping ears and tails unless for medical reasons?
I agree 100%.
DeleteWouldn't help a "good" Pitbull in this instance though as they have been bred not to show any threat displays. "A unique breed due to its absence of threat displays when fighting and its docility towards humans" Massey, Wil (2012). Bloodsport and the Michael Vick Dogfighting Case: A Critical Cultural Analysis (M.A. thesis). East Tennessee University.
It's the triggers you have to avoid, various things trigger this fighting response. I don't think of course that they actively bide their time before an attack. Most dogs deal with this in a normal way, very quickly sorting rank and file if allowed to unrestricted. In a game pitbull there's no such thing as rank or warning. Much like that JRT that thinks it's larger than a Rottweiler, or even your average miniature wire haired sausage dog.
If you're not versed in the triggers things very quickly turn into chaos. I've certainly been there done that with a pitbull. Even if you are versed in their behaviour you're never in time. They are very, very, remarkably athletic, something that would be sad to lose. Almost a primitve vitality, strengh, endurance.
Dogs just are at times completely inscrutable, though.
I borrowed two broken coated JRTs from my father which purely as company I was taking down to the coast with me at the time. I stopped off at botanist couple, friends of mine half way for some refreshments and a chat. Besides spending their days saving endangered African Cycads and publishing books on the topic they were trying in vain to breed AK47 resistant Boerboels which I was eager to witness.
While we were having cream tea and discussing critical flora, between these two charming JRTs, Gabby and William and four nameless large prototype Boerboels they almost completely destroyed my vehicle. It was an old but very reliable jeep, Landrover, short wheel base, the type they still built like tanks. Completely gutted. I had to borrow a plank to sit on.
The couple didn't dock as is customary with these types but only because the nearest vet was 300-miles away and they didn't think it a problem. In the end, in fact a mere three months later both died and it wasn't surprisingly an AK47 that got them but rather more fittingly for my Jeep at least it was another vehicle. They both died on the "motorway" not three miles from the farm.
Their boerboels live on of course and have played a vital role in the diversity of the breed. I know they would be extremely pleased.
Start by saying I'm all for strict controls on dogs and owners where necessary. Simply that they should not be breed or look based.
ReplyDeleteS.K.Y you obviously do not know dogs well. Define a pitbull? It includes a multitude of different breeds, not a single one. It also includes crossbreeds and mongrels. In both the US and the UK it's not a breed, it's a type or look. Use a search engine for "Police forced to put down their own sniffer dog because it was an illegal breed" for one example.
Would love to know where you get your figures from. Often Center for Disease Control figures are used. The CDC opposes BSL and notes that fatal attacks represent a tiny fraction of about 4.7 million dog bites Americans suffer annually and that it's difficult to accurately calculate bite rates for specific breeds as recognition is often false. Dogbites.org figures are based on scans of news reports for it's figures failing to recognise that media rarely reports on dog attacks which are not "pitbulls". Maybe you should look at National Canine Research Council study which "Examines the Pit Bull Paparazzi: Fear vs.Fact". Recent case in the UK where pitbull vs beagle in Boston USA made the news here but dog vs dog attacks are not unfortunately uncommon, they simply do not get into the media. There are no official bite statistics which can be used as there are no official figures kept.
There's an argument that pitbulls bites cause more damage but again, people have looked into that. The Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs in colorado show that dalmations and even dachshunds actually cause more damage when they attack.
There are no professional dog bodies which include looking at behaviour which agree with BSL.
If killing based on looks is not culling, I do not know what is. That is basis of BSL, not spaying etc.
Here's the rub, PBTs were for hundreds of years bred not to bite humans but to fight dogs. A very strict culling protocol was followed. Dogs that bit their owner or a handler anytime were culled. The dogs needed to be handled safely at all times, during fights and also by complete strangers. If dogs were latching onto the arms or legs of handlers, their own and or the opponents, never mind the madly enthusiastic gambling gentry of the time, dog fighting would not have been terribly feasible.
ReplyDeleteAfter bull and bear baiting was banned dog fighting took off as did organised ratting all needing a smaller lighter feisty dog. The types often mixed.
The resulting dogs were as a result incredibly "game", or animal aggressive but absolutely 100% safe (as any other dog at least) around humans, children, strangers. This did endeared them somewhat to the public of the time when dog fighting was also 100% legal. Of course it remained a deadly killing machine when it came to anything that wasn't human, though.
So it's always been a breed those breeding and handling has been strictly managed within the confines of the dog fighting and working community. There are many such breeds even today used for vermin eradication that have basically similar characteristics, they are also not all particularly human aggressive for the same reasons. In fact a good small game PBT or what was then known as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier before being exported to America is still in demand today for ouctcrossing to produce more gameness and tenacity in some hunting breeds where fine tuning a type is still the order of the day. This involves mostly terriers and hound types. This of course also varies and people have vastly different ideas across the globe what to use and how to go about it etc. None of which particularly interests me here, it's also a highly emotive subject and not one Im attempting to provoke. No tape measures at dawn for me.
Ultimately though unfortunately for the fighting terrier after dog fighting was banned they found themselves mostly in the wrong hands and mostly on the wrong side of the law and the Atlantic where dog fighting was much slower to be outlawed. Breeding ultimately lost it's strict culture of selection and culling along the way.
However in America you do have the show American pit bull which is not animal aggressive at all, nor is the showing pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terrier of today. These dogs are not considered useful for out-crossing to produce working dogs as they have lost the gameness needed. They do make reasonably healthy pets even though inbreeding has taken it's toll in some respects.
This is all completely off topic here anyway. However the explosion in unpredictable Pitbull types in America and else where has necessitated that culling become the horrifically sad reality it is. Of course it's not the breeds/type/dogs fault, it never has been. But who is willing to take the risks unless they know the dog inside and out and even if one does and it works it's still pretty foolhardy in this day age to allow oneself to become the opposite extreme, a Pitbull apologist.
Unfortunately BSL doesn't work either, certainly not for preventing or reducing dog bites, it just causes more misery for dogs and dog bites are on the increase.... I expect there are many reasons for this but it has simply proven not to work.
Fighting APBTs that bit their owner were not culled - that is an insidious myth. There are multiple Champion, Grand Champion and ROM fighting dogs who were famous "man eaters" and many stories from dogmen of dogs that would even try to attack their owners (let alone innocent bystanders, the owner's family members or anyone in the pit that was dumb enough to get too close to the dog's jaws). They were excellent fighters though and won their owners loads of money in the pit, so of course they weren't culled (who culls the goose that lays the golden egg just because it bites a little?). A dog that doesn't win AND bites its owner was likely culled though... maybe that's where the myth started?
DeleteMaybe that's what went wrong with the PBT in America, manbiters weren't culled after dog fighting was banned, or possibly even while it wasn't?
DeleteHowever ask any genuine old school fighting dog expert (I don't imagine there are too many left in America alive) and they will tell you these were not human aggressive dogs.
Interestingly in America dog fighting was for the longest time considered a healthy socially acceptable past time much of it confined within the ranks of the American police forces and fire fighting departments. This very British breed was considered something of an American national hero, considered to be an ideal dog for children, a nanny and a boys best friend etc etc.
I don't think we should rewrite or try and negate their history because of what the breed might or might not have become today. Look what the Americans did to the Cocker Spaniel!? Try getting that to flush in dense gorse thicket without hanging itself. Doesn't mean they weren't originaly extremely good at flushing birds and in fact working lines still very much are!
To Anon 20 Sept. 2016, 16:18
ReplyDeleteLaughable that "I do not know dogs very well." I have an M.S. (and did all my Ph.D. research, minus dissertation) on animal behavior, have competed in a dozen sports at elite levels, beginning in 1977, have 85+ titles in these sports with a wide variety of breeds, taught 700 dogs in classes and worked with nearly 300 aggressive dogs in their homes. I've been an expert witness in court for dog aggression cases and have appeared as a guest expert in print and radio. And, as I mentioned, I've just spent time every day for the past five years studying maulings and fatal attacks by dogs, the VAST majority of which are pit bulls.
Let me address your point. You say you’re for “strict controls, but not breed or look based.” So you think equal amount of time and money should be spent protecting people from my 9 lb. Papillon as from a pit bull? Papillons have never killed a human or another dog in history. A bite from a Papillon would be ¼ inch deep, at most. How about my Border Collie? He’s a larger dog, but his breed has also never killed a human in history. If one has ever killed a dog, I’ve certainly never heard of that, and it might be a once per decade event. By comparison, pit bulls kill 50+ people a year. Just in the U.S., they kill 24,000 pet dogs a year—not in fighting pits, but at dog parks, pet supply stores, by jumping fences to kill leashed dogs on walks with owners, and by literally breaking through plate glass to kill pet dogs (and humans) in their own homes.
Your statement is like saying “all guns can kill,” and then including water pistols, novelty cigarette lighters and photos of guns in the same group with loaded AK-47s.
>Define a pitbull? It includes a multitude of different breeds, not a single one. It also includes crossbreeds and mongrels. In both the US and the UK it's not a breed, it's a type or look.
This is a famous red herring put out by the pit bull advocacy. Can’t fool me—I showed dogs at top levels in the #1 pit bull registry in the world—the UKC—and have been around thousands of show pit bulls. A pit bull is a single breed: the American Pit Bull Terrier (the name used by the UKC), which is the same breed as the American Staffordshire Terrier (the name used by the AKC). There are many dogs that are show champions in both registries under the two breed names. The APBT/AmStaff has a 500 year history, has been registered and shown in conformation since 1898, and there are thousands of breed champions. The APBT is every bit as purebred and has as recognizable a physique as any Beagle, Pug or Samoyed.
On top of this, there are a bunch of dogs that are a mix of APBT and mastiff. For example, the Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Boerbel and American Bulldog. Many of these come complete with an invented multi-century history that doesn’t name the pit bull as an ancestor, but DNA tests would easily show the truth. And there are some especially ugly pit bulls that have been bred for exaggerated features in the past few decades and then registered under new names to appear as a “rare breed.” For instance, the “Alapaha blue blood bulldog.” All of these breeds are much less common that pit bulls, but kill humans and animals at rates similar to pit bulls per capita. So if you want to include them as pit bulls, be my guest. All pit bulls and pit bull relatives should fall under the BSL umbrella.
There are some assumptions in what you say but I will get to them later if i have the time. I dont have too much time so keeping it short...
DeleteOn the culling practises, I think you need to understand that after bull and bear baiting was banned (we're talking about the UK here not America) was when dog fighting took over. However interestingly enough dog fighting only really took off in a big way in the UK when dog fighting itself was banned. Dates and years will have to be forgotten for the moment as I don't have the time to do the research. The fact that dog fights are a portable feast and didn't/don't need much space, the back of a bar, down a side alley etc means it was impossible to police the ban with a great deal of effectiveness However importantly here as it was for the most part illegal very little remains by way of documentation and a great deal by word of mouth instead.
Anecdotal evidence to the contrary that you offer concerning fighting dog breeding is the exception that that doesn't in fact prove the rule here.
In America this might have been different breeding dogs might have been different I don't know, but it was legal for many many many years longer than in the UK, as you say just banned a mere 50-years ago...?
Of course there might be more documentation I'm not able to access or have time to but fighting dogs are still bred along the original lines elsewhere, where Im more familiar with, in China for example. it's roots in the South prinrily being from the colonial days of British empire....
Far as the use of the pitbull in the Boerboel breed is concerned it's simply not true, they might share some DNA dating back to the 1920 settlers and beyond but that's about it. Dog aggression has never been desired and where it became a problem the line was discontinued. Strange human wariness is desired and not the "everyone's friend" so typical of PBTs. It's just not the appropriate mix. Many BBs have been exported to America how things have proceeded there is a different story perhaps. This is a family homestead guardian which includes livestock and other dogs. They do need appraisals to be considered suitable for registration so do their offspring so unless drugged dog aggression doesn't go easily unnoticed as appraisals for the most happen for convenience sake with many other dogs in attendance.
Continuing in answer to Anonymous22 September 2016 at 02:05 bellow......they make a very good point I feel which is pertinent to the breeding of pitbulls in America today and those associated with it......
Strange how such an expert can be so wrong on so many fronts then expect people to believe them. Dog aggression is not the same as people aggression. A Greyhound has a high prey drive, doesn't mean it will attack a person as soon as they go faster than a snail pace. To ignore the thousands of mongrels which may look like "pitbulls" pretending they do not exist. I could of course pull out a newspaper article on bloodhounds killing children back in the 19th century and use it to justify banning and murdering all bloodhounds. I will not however as dogs change and more important the environment and conditions change. Environment and conditions are, as any decent behavioural specialist will tell you are the key factors of a dogs behaviour, not breed. Look at any dog attack and their are normally common environmental factors. Breed isn't it.
Delete(continued from the above):
ReplyDelete>Would love to know where you get your figures from. Often Center for Disease Control figures are used.
I don’t use CDC figures, as the pit bull advocacy bullied them into stopping recording the breed of biters right around the time pit bulls became pushed as family dogs. The CDC hasn’t tracked bites by breed for decades, long before the massive spike in maulings and deaths. There are numerous good sources for mauling and fatality data that I use, including peer-reviewed studies involving hospital and police records. Dogsbite.org reports EVERY dog-caused human fatality regardless of breed… but it’s easy to see from their blog and stats what breed is responsible for almost every fatality. So of course, you pit bull nuts are opposed to them, though you can’t actually name anything whatsoever that is unfair about their data.
And no, don’t try to say that the news “only” reports pit bull attacks. Believe me, if a Golden Retriever or a Schnauzer ripped off somebody’s arm—a thing that pit bulls do every week in the U.S.—it would definitely make the national news. By contrast, pit bulls ripping off an arm are now so common that they frequently don’t make more than the local village newspaper today.
>Maybe you should look at National Canine Research Council study
Why would I want to look at a website belonging to the pit bull advocacy? Talk about bias!
>The Coalition for Living Safely with Dogs in colorado show that dalmations and even dachshunds actually cause more damage when they attack.
Now I think you likely have mental problems. In my research, I have seen hundreds of graphic photos of dog bites, maulings and fatal attacks on humans, as well as on dogs. I’ve also witnessed many attacks and been the victim of bites when working with (non pit bull) aggressive dogs. It is absolutely LUDICROUS that anybody would believe that Dalmatians and Dachshunds cause more damage than pit bulls. Pit bull victims that survive an attack don’t just have a few puncture wounds. They have every bit of flesh ripped off their living arm (only bones visible), entire scalps and face ripped off, an entire foot or leg detached from the body. The “minor” wounds from pit bulls involve half-cup scoops of flesh removed from the body with each “bite.”
>There are no professional dog bodies which include looking at behaviour which agree with BSL.
Why not? Follow the money trail. 100% of groups that are against BSL make their living off having the maximum number of pit bulls in circulation. Shelters in the U.S. (60% pit bull occupancy) would have to cut staff if there weren’t pit bulls taking up cage space and justifying their jobs. Vets make money from both pit bull owners and from the tens of thousands of dogs brutally mauled by pit bulls each year.
>If killing based on looks is not culling, I do not know what is. That is basis of BSL, not spaying etc.
There is no BSL program on earth that involves killing peoples’ pet pit bulls. You are completely making this up. BSL is spay/neuter, leash laws, fence laws and mandatory liability insurance, as well as no pit bulls at off-leash dog parks, where they kill a dozen or so dogs in the U.S. each week. Every BSL law grandfathers in existing dogs, so they don’t have to move. You just can’t go out and acquire more pit bulls.
If you love pits, you should love pit bull spay/neuter. Of the 4 million dogs and cats (combined) euthanized in U.S. shelters, 1 million are pit bulls. From another view, 1 in 3 pit bulls in the U.S. is euthanized each year. So if you don’t want more pit bulls—the breed that is least likely to be spayed/neutered of all breeds in the U.S. (25% vs. 90% for other breeds), you should be all for BSL.
It's obvious you'll ignore any data which doesn't match your prejudice. The majority of scientific facts as well as statistics indicate BSL fails and is based on falsehoods to begin with.
DeleteYou state that witnesses recognise a pitbull is completely false. Why is it that experts are needed as frequently they cannot specify a dog's breed even when they can study a dog closely yet alone only glimse it?
Dogs are killed while BSL does little to protect the public from dog bites. What breed is next on the list, huskies or even pomaranians, both have killed people. Do you need the links for sensationalism? Why not have policies which reduce dog bites, mauling and killings, including those of pitbulls rather than a policy of breed demonisation?
Let's look at a transcript from Ontario in 2012.
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/committee-proceedings/committee_transcripts_details.do?locale=en&BillID=2552&ParlCommID=8962&Date=2012-04-18&DocumentID=26206
"...Second, the current legislation has resulted in the unnecessary euthanasia of over 1,000 dogs and puppies in Ontario. Many of these had no history of violence against people or other animals..."
This quote shows you are totally wrong when you state as fact that no BSL program on earth involves killing pit bulls. Try the Uk with even a police sniffer dog in the UK killed as someone decided it matched a checklist of looks. Doesn't sound like spaying to me. Neither do all the memorials for dogs killed by BSL available. Dogs with no aggression issues, simply killed as they looked a certain way. BSL is killing dogs for no reason.
You use the argument that anybody else whose data doesn't support BSL is biased for financial gains. So can you name professional who support BSL when the following are against it? American Dog Owners Association, American Humane, American Kennel Club (AKC), American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA), American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA), American Working Dog Federation, Association of Pet Dog Trainers, Best Friends, Center for Disease Control, Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, International Association of Canine Professionals, National Animal Control Association, National Animal Interest Alliance, National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors and National Canine Research Council and that is just in the states.
Animal control is interesting since they are the ones who would frequently need to handle these so called deadly dogs.
BSL is flawed, it builds on prejudice and pretends other breeds are safe. It doesn't protect the public. Far better solutions which do work to protect the public including protecting people from "pitbulls" exist.
Luckily BSL is slowly dying as people realise it's not effective. Over 100 municipality bans have been overturned as it is recognised it doesn't work.
Of course PETA are happy to support BSL. All dog ownership and any pet ownership amounts to slavery.
River P, I agree with you on most subjects almost all the time. However, I both agree and disagree with points from your post.
ReplyDeleteYou mention human-aggressive pit bulls being culled throughout history. I used to believe this, too. However, my research has never found a single case historically where this happened. Not a single mention of a single dog being put down for human aggression. In fact, I have seen numerous ads from the early 19th century where man-biting pits were prized, as were their offspring. One of the top pit bull breeders at the time had a dog that killed his own nephew, but continued using the dog in his breeding program. Statistically, I'd guess that over half of all pits in the world go back to his dogs, if not more.
I read an account from a German traveler in the 1500's who lived for a while in the UK. He went to bull- and bear-baiting events. If you look at paintings or read accounts from the time, these dogs (then called "bulldogs," but completely unlike the English bulldogs of today) were 100% pit bulls, unchanged in ANY way from today's pit bulls. They look like them, act like them, attack other animals the exact same way today's pit bulls do. And this German traveler talked about how these "bulldogs" were super dangerous, as they were famous for escaping any type of confinement and killing children and adults without provocation or warning.
Numerous Victorian-era ads, cartoons, etc. all show pit bulls as dangerous man-biters. (NEVER nanny dogs). You can see tons of these by perusing http://americasdog.blogspot.com.
An ASPCA study found pit bulls were 16x more likely than other dogs to escape confinement, and--as I mentioned--they are 150x more likely to send somebody to the hospital than the average dog. Nothing has changed in 500 years.
********
You also mentioned that BSL "doesn't work for preventing or reducing dog bites." Well, that's not its purpose. The purpose is to prevent maulings, limb loss and fatalities. And it does this VERY well, everywhere it is enforced. The vast majority of bites by regular dogs are a minor scratch or bruise. These will always be around as long as we have dogs. BSL is designed--and WORKS--to keep people safe from being disfigured for life. Cities that have passed BSL have gone from dozens of disfiguring maulings a year down to 0 maulings and 0 fatalities, as soon as pit bulls are out of the equation.
River P, I should also mention this about culling. The same pit bull advocacy that claims the man biters were culled... are the same ones that are spending $50,000+ on legal representation for pit bulls that maul and kill people.
ReplyDeleteFor example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2588655/Phoenix-judge-spares-life-dog-mauled-child.html
Mickey was a pit bull that had recently killed another dog. He was left chained next to a sidewalk (pavement). A babysitter and young boy walked past. There is ZERO evidence the boy did anything, though the pit bull advocacy made up a story that he "tried to take the dog's bone, and therefore deserved to die." Mickey attacked Kevin, blinded him permanently in one eye, shattered his face bones and did a lot of other damage.
A few weeks on, the dog had 65,000 Facebook fans and over $50k in donations and a pro-bono New York lawyer. Kevin, who was from a poor family and was uninsured, had received less than $5k in donations towards his medical expenses. The local sheriff kissed the dog on TV and set him up in a swanky private kennel for life, with a 24/7 video camera so the dog's admiring fans could view him any time.
Similar things have happened for pit bulls that actually KILLED people. Many have been legally taken by the pit bull advocacy through court procedures and adopted over state lines.
This behavior by pit bull fans makes me STRONGLY doubt that man-biting pit bulls were ever culled at any time in history. Either excuses were made, or the man-biting was promoted as something to make the puppies more expensive. At any rate, I have not seen one tiny shred of evidence of a single pit bull ever being culled by the owner for man-biting, either historically or today. (Unless you count the 1 million pits being euthanized in shelters in the U.S. each year, probably many brought in for biting; but there are many more biters still in public and being bred).
So as usual, it comes back to the identity of a breed, and the identity of its supporters.
DeleteNot promotion of common expectations for either.
Instead of teaching common responsibilities to the purpose of keeping dogs, we accept that some 'breeds' and some cultures are 'fixed' or 'set' and so haven't an ability to respond to common expectation. ( no responsibility) That leaves only one direction available- to reject the identity of that breed or the culture that keeps it.
Breed specific legislation is the only direction open if response to the problem is unavailable.
Mirrors the cultural shift we have today in humanity, where acceptance of diversity is taken to mean 'some cultural identities are set and fixed, unable to respond to 'common' expectations of humanity because they have an identity distinct from the rest.
Identity politics.
Where a group of people take on an identity that sees itself as distinct from its environment.Not responsible to humanity 1st, but to the group they choose to identify with. Feminist, Black, Jewish or 'Privileged' white. Then proceed to respond to others as that identity would, in opposition to conflicting 'group' identities.
Acceptance of diversity doesn't work through identification and acceptance of differences. Differences can't unite people. (or species)
Acceptance of diversity can only come through acceptance of common values as a human species 1st. Differences are accepted on the basis of any values they bring to humanity, in common.
Our 1st responsibility AS HUMAN BEINGS is to treat others with the dignity and respect A HUMAN BEING should learn to expect. A woman, a Black, Jew or privileged White should expect the same treatment as any other human being. Its discussion of what those common expectations are that teaches those values.
Cultural differences don't remain a problem long term, so long as there are values from each that can benefit the whole integration through common expectation. There is no integration if values are seen to be some thing distinct and separate, only division through the 'price' or 'cost' of accepting values that are contrary to best interests of humanity as a whole.
The same thing is happening in the 'Dog World'. Maybe thats where it started?
Personal responsibility to the SPECIES is lost, because we don't share common expectations and values FOR the species. There are only expectations on group identities- be they breed or culture. We are reacting to the identities of groups and not expecting PERSONAL responsibility, regardless of group identity.
While any 'Group Identity' insists on autonomy from humanity, we are forced to accept humanity AS a series of forever divided identities, with out common goal or purpose. We can only react through rejecting the costs imposed, if we can't share the values that make integration work for EVERY one as a Human being 1st.
Yes quite correct Anonymous22 September 2016 at 02:05.
DeleteIn fact there has already been a major shift in breeding PB type dogs in America. Bully breeds are stealing the limelight and in fact some might find this even more appalling but showing these dogs has become a very popular past time too. These dogs are not registered with the AKCs of this world but are taking the canine world previously only associated with aggressive unmanageable dogs and dog fighting by storm.
I can't say I know too much about the dogs themselves but some definitely are not heading Pedigree Dogs Exposed's warning or the fate of the pedigree dog associated with dog show and breeding paradigm in general. Some very messed up examples particularly in the bantam divisions where the French bulldog has been heavily used, possibly even the pug.
Worse some think it it's a fitting honour that the dogs get recognised by the likes of the AKC! Bad guys made good. I guess the same same old will win over, some will and some wont, breed splitting blah blah.
I used the term "bantam" to rile S.K.Y knowing of course she wouldn't take the bait quite so easily. It's in fact "pocket" and nothing to do with fighting at all. Regardless of size, "Pocket", "Standard", "XL", "Classic" or "Extreme" bionic or what ever they are called they are meant to be according to the ABKC, "American Bully kennel Club", "despite varying physical traits" or size both "friendly and protective".
"The dog’s friendly and sweet nature is in direct contrast to its harsh and aggressive looks and what endears it to a dog lover"
Well thank goodness for that because they look like a fighting PBT on steroids.
Might be my next piece of bling who knows!
They are remarkably built. Wonder if the wild pigs would take heed and leave my bamboo shoots alone. We have a sudden explosion in their population, one was even found running around in a shopping mall in the middle of Bonkers between Christies and Van Cleef & Arpels.
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DeleteGood comments SKY! We so seldom hear the truth about PB attacks, all we read is how their one pit bull puppy is such a big baby, so all PBs must be gentle sweet dogs too.
ReplyDeleteI've not seen a single thing backed by evidence although plenty which is proven false. We've heard small dogs can't do enough damage, only pitbulls. Tell that to the 2 people killed by jack russells in the UK since 2005. Jack Russells can be gentle and sweet dogs. Nobody is saying Pitbulls cannot be dangerous. ALL dogs can be dangerous, it's not specific to breed. BSL is a political scapegoat avoiding the real issues.
Deletep.S.
ReplyDeleteAnother analogy: Ghettos. We have a social duty to reduce the incidence. We promote ideas of education and hard work, ensuring those are accessible so there is demonstration of the value those things offer to a ghetto environment.
But there are those who feel their identities are defined by the Ghetto. As long as they believe that, they reject the values offered and their own responsibility to bring change. Their abilities to change are restricted by their self identity as a child of the ghetto and the out side world is viewed as an oppressor and an enemy to be used, fought or destroyed to benefit the ghetto.
There is no personal response ability to what lies out side that self identity of environment.
That's some pretty poor French. Here's a better translation:
ReplyDeleteIl existe un ectropion marqué de la paupière inférieure, et le chien bénéficierait donc d’une correction chirurgicale (consistant en un raccourcissement des paupières inférieures). Ce chien est incapable de clignoter ses paupières de façon efficace, et par conséquent, tout sorte de débris s’accumulera dans la fornix ventrale, ce qui résultera donc en une susceptibilité augmentée aux conjonctivites chroniques.
Les déformations graves des paupières présentes chez ce sujet sont associées avec un problème qu’on appelle le ‘Diamond Eye’, provoquant la présence et d’entropion et d’ectropion au même temps.
Les chiens de race Dogue Allemand en général exhibent une anatomie des paupières assez pauvre, dont leur peau lâche indique la raison. La race est donc sujette à un risque élevé d’anomalies dans la conformation des paupières.
Photo's can be seen On Andrew Brace's page. He judged Danes at the recent SWKA shows, and wrote:
ReplyDelete"I then had the unenviable task of taking over Albert Wight’s Great Dane entry and I’m sure some exhibitors would have been disappointed with his replacement. Hopefully one who wasn’t was a lady named Olivia Ryan who showed a dog and a bitch in the junior classes and ended up winning both CCs. The male was Keirkane’s King Of The Throne, and he was a revelation who took me back in time to an age when most Great Danes looked like this. Clean, dry, noble and elegant with nothing overdone, he had a typical head and expression, clean throat, firm topline and moved with the lithe springy gait so seldom seen these days. His more extrovert performance decided BOB. Reserve to him was the limit winner, Tenaya Cherokee Lone Wolf, another dog of the type I consider to be correct, anatomically excellent and so sound, but not as outgoing as the junior.
In bitches it was the litter sister to the dog CC winner – continuing the theme of my weekend – Keirkane’s Kiss From Heaven, who won the CC and she was very similar to her brother in every way."
http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/168634/
So there are correct Danes out there.