I wrote about German Shepherd Ch Kysarah's Pot of Gold in December (see here) - a blog that provoked a lot of opinion from all sides. Some thought, as I do, that the dog is a tragic indictment of what the show-ring has done to the German Shepherd. Others defended the dog saying I had used "bad" pictures of the dog. The owners, meanwhile, accused me of photoshopping the images.
I hadn't, of course, but will no doubt be accused of the same for showing these screen-grabs from the television coverage of the dog - pet name "Paddy" - at the Westminster Dog Show today.
Paddy didn't win today. But he was given an Award of Merit - a kind of consolation prize awarded at the discretion of the judge.
Again, no dog should stand, walk or run on their metatarsals like this. Dogs are supposed to be digitigrade animals, not plantigrade. It is a functional fault.
The interesting thing is, one of this dog's owners has posted a picture of this dog "gaiting naturally" and claims he is "going to land on his foot NOT his hock", and "some DO land on their hocks, but that is NOT correct or desirable." She accepts that it's not correct or desirable, but either cannot or will not accept the fact that this particular dog does indeed show this fault.
ReplyDeleteAs a disclaimer (that really should not be needed if you read what is available on this Blog at face value), nobody here has claimed that this dog is not well-loved or well cared for. He probably has a very lovely temperament. I'm not interested in personal attacks on the dog's owners or handlers, nor am I "bashing" the dog itself. I have and always will love German shepherd dogs, and grew up with two of them. But I cringe every time I see this dog or ones similarly built. It is awkward and contrary to what has been shown to be efficient structure and movement in dogs. I'm merely interested in the structure of this dog, and if anyone is going to be criticized, it should be this dog's breeder, and the judges that will put up dogs with faults so glaringly obvious.
I should add, that depending on one's definition of "hock", you might be able to say this dog's hock is not on the ground and be technically correct (which according to some, namely a certain character on the TV show "Futurama", is "the best kind of correct.") That is if you consider the hock to be the calcaneus, then sure, you're technically correct. Does not change the fact that the dog's metatarsals are clearly resting on the floor, and the only bones of the dog's foot that should ever directly bear weight in a normal, standing posture are the phalanges - they are digitigrade animals, after all!
ReplyDeleteI've added a couple of diagrams to the post to make things a bit more clear for those not familiar with the terminology.
DeleteIs he a well-loved, well cared for dog? Yes. Is he a good representative of a well structured, sound, functional German Shepherd Dog? No.
ReplyDeleteWasn't it enough that you had this poor dog's owner sent death threats and harassment last year - the owner who is a MINOR? No? You need to bring this up again, using poor stills (of which my mentor, who is also a handler and breeder, and does not LIKE show shepherds, agrees on) to showcase exactly what you want to be seen? Okay. At least you're consistent in your callousness.
ReplyDeletePretty sure that Jemima had no one send death threats to anyone, ever.
DeleteAs for "poor stills", look at the second photo - that dog is MOVING FORWARD and still puts a flat foot on the ground.
My dog couldn't do that unless he was for some reason falling over backwards. He's certainly not physically capable of putting his foot on the ground like that in a forward-moving direction (unless...maybe he was sliding down a steep hill of loose gravel?)
This seems to be a common problem with GSD show people (and yes, I HAVE a GSD, but not for show) - they cannot SEE what is right in front of them. It is like a blind spot in their brains. And if you point it out, they get upset and ask why you hate their dog so much...
Once again, no one hates the dogs. They hate what is being done to the dogs. They hate that GSD people refuse to acknowledge it. They hate that it's being rewarded in the ring. They hate what it's doing to animals and where it's going.
How long before you can't tell a GSD from a sea lion? Keep breeding for weak hind ends like that and you'll have a dog who flops around without any back end at all. But then, the GSD people will tell you how much of an "improvement" it is and how it's a natural movement and shows strength and grace...
Are you implying that someone here "had" somebody send death threats to the dog's owner? Umm that's quite the accusation! Have evidence that PDE sent death threats or "had" someone send death threats? "Exactly what you want to be seen"? The fact that the dog consistently bears weight on his metatarsals even when gaiting or *not* show posed? This dog tends toward this position of his own free will. Look at 21:10 and 21:36 for two of many readily-observable instances here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhXSzTiKPhE Regardless, you shouldn't even be able to force a dog into that position.
DeleteWe need to take a moment here and notice that JH is only blogging about Patrick because a minor owns him. There were several other shephards showing who walk the same and stand the same. Even the winner runs on her hock. The difference is adults might fight back ad a teen is easy to bully. Only reason for this atthis point. Don't believe me, just go watch the video
DeleteAnonymous--JH is blogging about Patrick presumably as a follow-up to this December blog entry, wherein Patrick was discussed because he'd won Best of Breed at the National Dog Show: http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2015/12/gsd-winner-among-worst-i-have-ever-seen.html
DeleteHe won Best of Breed DESPITE running on his metatarsals, which no dog GSD or otherwise should be capable of. You seem to be the one implying that a minor is too young to withstand criticism of a dog she shows.
Sarah
Anonymous - what a claim. There is no bullying in this post whatsoever; not even a MENTION of the minor co-owner. Honestly, we couldn't care less who owns this dog. This is not an ad hominem attack, it's a critique of a dog that has been *willingly put in the spotlight* via widely-publicized conformation shows. We are all entitled to our opinions; the opinion here relies on a biomechanical expert's analysis rather than emotional attachment to a dog. There is a huge difference between criticism and bullying. You are trying to write off the criticism as bullying when it's obviously not true at all; read: logical fallacy. Of all the dogs in the breed ring, Patrick was on his metatarsals moreso than any other dog. Many of the dogs only hit that position while gaiting or when overstretched for the stacks. Patrick naturally assumed that position many times throughout. In this way, he stood out. He was THE most obvious tending-toward-plantigrade dog in the entry. And he won an AOM, which is notable considering what the standard truly calls for which is a well-balanced, powerful dog.
DeleteNone of the German shepards at Westminster today walked on their feet. They all walked
ReplyDeleteOn their hock. The best of breed winner is dyed and I watched another dog named don't refuse me being dyed when I walked in today. Watch the video of the class dogs, the entire breed is a disaster. Some dogs were shy and had to have the owner standing at the ring calling them.
They're either looking at food ( no prob ) or at owners. While I respect the focus on physical temperament is more important.
What do you mean by "dyed"?
DeleteProbably means that the dog's coat is dyed. It wouldn't surprise me if this were true. A lot of show dogs have artificial color added to their coats in various forms. When I went to Westminster a couple of years ago I watched a lady with a Whippet literally paint the dog's face with white powder and black eyeliner. It makes for a very dramatic expression and appearance.
DeleteThe reason for the owners standing at ringside calling them is not because the dogs are shy, it's because GSDs are not particularly showy dogs if they aren't being handled by their owners or someone else they are bonded with. It's called "double handling" and it's against the rules but it isn't because the dogs are "shy." A shy dog being called by it's owner and prevented from returning to them would make a terrible picture in the show ring!
DeleteIs not only a ACK who ruined dog breeds also the FCI and affiliates, for example I have a Shar pei whose standard was changed in worse one in 1999 to favorite the Meath one with many healthy problems. So the where is the intention to preserve the breed and to have care for dog health. There is only the economic interest sadly on the dog health
ReplyDeleteThis is what you do -- at your best! -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
ReplyDeleteWhat about this picture, where he is obviously NOT on his metatarsals? http://i.imgur.com/ju33AEA.jpg
ReplyDeleteThis was his natural stack before his owner teased him into the position he is in in your first screenshot. He is just on his toes.
What is the point? The fact remains that he *is* on his metatarsals in all sorts of situations - free gaiting, standing naturally, and stacked. Nobody here has claimed he's never not on them.
DeleteThe point is that he doesn't stand naturally on his metatarsals -- he is always either placed in it by his handler, or encouraged to stand that way (as it is a trained behavior).
DeleteThe dog does indeed naturally stand on his metatarsals, it can be clearly seen in videos of him where the owner isn't even looking at the dog, let alone actively stacking him. Regardless, the dog is physically able to stand that way because of artificial selection for this form. How is it in the least bit helpful for a dog to be able to stand this way, from a utilitarian perspective? Again, see the Nat'l Dog show breed judging.
DeleteAnon, are you claiming he is "trained" to stand and walk & run on his metatarsals, rather than 'naturally' landing on them due to his bone structure and conformation?
DeleteEven is this is so, WHY is it okay? "Training" a dog to stand, walk & run this way can only have horrible consequences. I can't imagine the stress and strain that it puts on muscles & joints. Ouch.
It's all bullshit - defenders of the breed are desperately trying to make excuses for their dog's crappy conformation so they won't have to change it. I'm sure they know as well as we do how wrong it looks, and how bad it is for health but that wrong look is exactly what they love about the breed and they don't want it to change.
DeleteJH accuses them of ignorance but I'm going to go further and say it's fully cognizant blatant disregard for their animal's welfare. Same as pug, English bulldog and French bulldog owners.
A teenager is mentally mature enough to accept criticism, and if not she shouldn't be participating in public shows.
After watching the video of GSD breed judging at Westminster, I can say that most of the dogs were not as extreme. But none of them looked like normally-constructed dogs. I just got this sense that they were constant shifting and re-positioning themselves (more-so than what you see in other breeds) as if the dogs were uncomfortable. Also the hind limbs of the majority are chronically in this strange, crouching-like position. Their legs look folded or bunched up underneath them as if they are too long due to the low position of the hips and/or loose ligaments in the limbs. I have yet to hear how this is well-balanced or correct. It is without a doubt a product of exaggeration creeping into the breed and continually being rewarded. I will say that Rumor, for an ASL, is moderate. Still not my cup of tea, but doesn't look as physically compromised as most of the dogs.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2016/photos/breed/DN33397401.html
ReplyDeleteI didn't watch the breed judging but I did watch group and BIS and you could easily see Rumor's hocks hitting the ground when trotting in the ring.
ReplyDeleteDisgraceful!!!
Rumor should have won Best of Show. No GSD has won since 1987. If she wasn't a winner, I don't see another one winning.
ReplyDeleteSigh... Sigh again... I am not supposed to be commenting on this blog due to some legalities from the prior blog referenced here. I just have to jump in here though. To the people defending Patrick, THANK YOU, it is appreciated. However, I may disagree with what is said here by Ms. Harrison but she is within her rights to say it. I ask that if anyone feels the need to join this conversation they leave Patrick's minor out of it in any way. Ms. Harrison has not brought her into the discussion and I hope that no one else on either side does any further. Also, for what it's worth there were MANY very nice dogs shown at Westminster. I don't want any to be disparaged so please stop trying to deflect the focus from Paddy to any other dog.
ReplyDeleteI don't see Ms. Harrison or her followers changing their opinions and I am not going to change mine. Pam Martin
Ugh... I hate when I post with out editing... My comment should have read " I ask that if anyone feels the need to join this conversation they leave Patrick's minor aged OWNER out of it in any way..."Pam
ReplyDeleteI do not see a minor pictured with the dog above, unless said minor has some sort of premature aging disease. I also don't care if a dog is owned by a minor or not. If minors are exempt from critique for some arcane reason, they should stay safe and sound out of the show ring.
DeleteWithin her right to a point, Pam. At least the minor is left out this time, but these are AR extremists, who serve to hurt humans over dog ownership and for disagreeing. She has repeatedly attacked your dog and family, both by name - with multiple comments from her taken down or changed when called out. If this were my dog, I would be lawyering up, but that is me.
ReplyDeleteThese are *not* AR extremists, these are people who love dogs, love purebred dog and are appalled by the changes that affect their health and well being. There's nothing illegal about discussing the conformation faults or issues with a dog shown at a public dog show *and on TV.* No one here or in any comments has ever advocated "hurting humans" over dog ownership. Your paranoia and lack of reading comprehension are alarming!
DeleteWish I knew who this was so I could reply privately, lol. Everything you have mentioned is well in hand which is why I can't really comment. Find me on facebook and pm me if you would like to know more.
DeleteAs far as Anon 22:53... Re read what I posted please. Your comment makes zero sense as I stated that on this post neither Ms. Harrison or her followers had brought my daughter into this particular post. Pam Martin
Anon, nothing about this Blog is "AR extremist," please see "PDE - The Myths Busted," link next to the "Main Blog" tab up top. It's not hard to do some research, I know purposefully misrepresenting someone's argument makes it easier to write off but really, it's getting old. I really think you need to brush up on the differences between AR and animal welfare. If you would actually read the Blog and comments here you might know this. What do you even mean "at least the minor is left out *this* time?" When was that ever an issue here? The only people who are bringing it up are you and Pam herself. I was watching the original post on Paddy very closely and saw just about all the comments very soon after they were approved to be posted...there were no attacks or threats. Again, this is a dog that has been *publicly* shown at very well-known and documented shows. If you and your circle of breeders and showing friends can't take the heat, don't put your dogs up for public scrutiny. Better yet, don't support breeders who are breeding dogs with weak ligaments, poor pasterns, and abnormal hind limb structure. I don't think a concern for the structure and function of GSDs (a breed that used to look *vastly* different as recently as the 1960's in this country, with modern working lines still relatively unchanged - telling, eh?) warrants classification as "AR extremist."
DeleteThis "minor" never gets mentioned until someone from the pro-Patrick camp mentions that his owner is a minor.
ReplyDelete