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| Poster at the the KC's Discover Dogs this weekend |
The 100% real brachycephalic obstructed airway syndrome
The 100% real pug dog encephalitis
The 100% real hemivertrebrae
The 100% real corneal ulcers
The 100% real stenotic nostrils
The 100% real skin fold dermatitis (take a peek under that nose roll..)
The 100% real deformed mouth and teeth
The 100% real pigmentary keratitis
The 100% real inbreeding
The crossbred Pug?
Not so much.
Oh, and a Pug cross is 50% cheaper to insure than a 100% real Pug through the Kennel Club's own pet insurance.*
Say yes to crossbreeds.
*comparison drawn 19/10/15 between purebred Pug and "small crossbreed"
Follow the money. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
ReplyDeleteWhile it sounds like a good idea to breed a pug to something healthier to get healthier pups, what you have also done is bred a healthy dog to a pug to get worse pups. We should breed healthy, sound, fit animals to healthy, sound, fit animals and leave the brachycephalics out of the gene pool altogether.
ReplyDeleteGood point. Say yes to outcrossing, but some of these pathological breeds are better off going extinct. Care for the individuals that have been born, but don't breed them.
DeleteIt's strange that so many people find cuteness in what are basically deformed carnivores, such as brachycephalic pug dogs and Persian cats. Supposedly this is because humans are naturally flat-faced, so some people feel that flat-faced animals are more human-like, more baby-like, and therefore cuter.
But of course, dogs and cats are not just furry people, and thinking of them as such does them a profound disservice. It's much better to have a healthy dog or cat than an abnormal one that has been bred to sort of, kind of look like people.
Very good point. I don't see any desirable qualities in a pug that are not already available in a dozen or more healthier breeds. The only reason to get a pug, specifically, is because people LIKE the malformations like the pushed in face and wrinkles. I don't think animals should suffer to meet the owner's "looks" requirements...
Deletethen do not breed pugs or any dogs you do not like.. and don';t buy one. It never ceases to amaze me how others think they have the right to tell people what to do. Out cross away.. have at it go for it.. but stop telling others what they should do.. if you build a better mousetrap .. .. etc
DeleteI think in this case the law should be telling people what to do.
DeleteIt's just not humane to breed dogs that have huge difficulties breathing, that have deformed spines and horrific eye problems amongst many chronic disabilities due to their conformation and breeding.
It might be a long lived dog as many small dogs are but the quality of that long life is seriously compromised to an extent that it would maybe be kinder if they didn't live quite so long.
Yes of course the kindest thing of all is if they weren't intentionaly bred to suffer in the first place. This is sadly not the case in some breeds, where breeders and in fact even the general public seem either immune or oblivious to their suffering.
So why should they be allowed to be born at all?
River P is right Bestuvall, head, sand, ostrich? Anything that has no power to protect itself needs somebody to oversee it's wellbeing. To stop people buying deformed dog breeds means that the breeders have to be stopped, they will not do it voluntarily, so it should become illegal. One would hope that the KCs internationally would have interest in encouraging types of breeds to be bred with no exaggerations whatsoever. It can be done, moderated and sustainable. The dogs able to live happy, energetic lives as DOGS. The video of the trampolining bulldog proves that they have a sense of a humour, love to exercise, want to be able to see, breathe and move - ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Show Bulldogs struggle just to get around a small ring, which one Bestuvall do you think is the happier dog?
Deletewow talk about eugenics.. they very same thing you accuse the KC of supporting.. the double standard lives.. and as for ":laws" really? you want laws on the books to make breeding dogs illegal? open Pandora's box ..if Pugs "suffer" then what is to keep you from thinking any other breed suffers
DeleteYes absolutely. Just taking one example here, It should be illegal to breed dogs with closed nostrils. As simple as that really.
DeleteYou don't have to even get breed specific in the legislation. There are indeed quite a few breeds that suffer as a result of being intentional deformed yes.
Closed nostrils are just that a terrible deformity that doesn't allow the dog to breath, added to that a plugged throat and you have a monster welfare issue happily parading in a ring?!
anon 2210 1539, you are being unreasonable. There are several breeds that need regulation from the horrible breeders who insist on breeding exaggerations which become serious deformities in order to win a cheap piece of cardboard. If you have the time, look at previous PDE postings and see the deformities that have now been incorporated in breed standards. When you use the word "WOW" it should be against the breeders who perpetrate these cruelties on innocent dogs. Animal cruelty, child cruelty should all be stopped worldwide and should be illegal and enforcement followed through with severe consequences.
DeleteThe main direction in pug breeding is big trouble.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the numbers are NOT 100% . . . and even given the many serious breed problems, pugs, on average, live longer than most of the giant breeds . . . probably twice as long, on average, as the Neo Mastiff.
Pugs DO have great temperament, if you're looking for a playful, friendly, sociable dogs that is ok in an apartment or small property.
IMO, it's worth looking at the pugs who have a bit of nose and lack a screw tail, who wouldn't place in a show, who came from free-whelped litters. EVEN IF YOU WANT TO CROSS BREED. But, unlike many troubled breeds, pugs are pretty diverse, and have a long breed history. (Legend has it that Napoleon was bitten by his wife's pug on his wedding night!). Ok, so the healthiest representatives of breed are in the hands of BYB's who don't register with the KC (horror of horrors!). But I think it's still worth searching out the outliers of the breed, who haven't suffered from 'breeding the best to the best' and selection for 'type' -- as defined by what wins in the show ring.
I think you'll find that most small dogs outlive the giant breeds, it's not just pugs.
DeleteI don't know why the kennel clubs run conformation shows, they might as well admit that deform"amation" classes is really what they want and like because they encourage the breeding practices. They seem to deliberately ignore what we can so easily see. On their fb page they have put up some incredible images, all of which I've commented on but they have declined to respond. Also I've noted recently that there is a definite lack of the promotion of the assured breeders scheme, so maybe they have listened to the howl of protest and are looking at the protests about the apparent puppy farmers who maybe members because of the lack of inspection yet issuing certificates willy nilly. I have asked them about the mandatory inspection and why it was set up (obvious to me) but want them to reply, they refuse.
ReplyDeleteThe KC are suckers for punishment thats for sure. I agree pugs have a very unique and delightful personality, these little dogs deserve so much more.
ReplyDeleteI had a pug cross when I was a child it was a wonderful dog, she was extremely protective and up for anything easily following me on long rides, flying through the tall grass as though she had wings. She loved fishing and the beach and always came with us on long camping trips up the wild coats of Africa. She would spent hours playing in rock pools trying to catch little fish or chasing the receding waves and fiddler crabs. Lived to be at least 16 we think, we stopped counting. My first dog and my shadow. She used to sleep curled up tight under the sheets of my bed at night and when we woke up would get a saucer of tea every morning when I got my tea. If not she would wait in bed until it came her head cocking from side to side from under the sheets thinking she had been forgotten. When I went to school she was my dads shadow until I came home.
We never knew what her cross was but her mother was the Station masters wife's pug. She was a small light white spotty dog that looked like a shorter haired Tibetan spaniel, tail curved over her back in sweep. Never needed a vet in her life just for her shots. When she arrived she was so small she curled up in my dads hand and when he put her down at my feet she yawned and immediately started playing with my toes which she followed ever since.
I can never forget her. She used to attack anything that so much lifted a hand to me including my brother. He has hated little dogs ever since (:
Ever noticed that when these "Designer" Hugs, Chugs, Puggles, etc, have a high price tag attached to them the critics of pedigree breeds are at the forefront, yet when the poor things end up in rescues they fall back on the cross breeds description of Pug x Beagle, Husky x Pug, etc, those champions of such crosses are never there to help (well too busy baking all that cash)
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:29
ReplyDeleteEver noticed when these pedigree dogs have a high price tag and titles attached to them their breeders are right out front of the dogs?
Yet when these poor things are at the vets, and owners in tears those same people can STILL manage to distance themselves from the problems.
The owners fault for not researching the breed and its health problems -
Or understanding that K.C membership doesn't mean they are aren't after all, any more than the backyard breeders the K.Cs warn against.
Its a single species. Prone to the same problems no matter what group you chose to align yourself with.
The K.Cs don't recognize that. So they fight against their own environment.
Instead of working WITH it, with what they have, to shape it into some thing better
through increasing our understanding, They distance themselves from it.
And work to eliminate the chance that any one who does NOT understand, will have any thing to do with the process.
Which shrinks the available environment. Less people able to partake, fewer who ever WILL understand.
Instead of promoting the best practices the K.Cs claim, They promote a pedigree in its stead.
And wonder why there is less and less room to move.
A rare 19th century pug taxidermy:
ReplyDeletehttp://curiousscience.com/27/Taxidermy/Trophy-of-pug-dog-P443.html
If this pug was cloned, I wonder if the dog would be accepted as a fellow 100% pug?
What are your thoughts on this?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.technologyreview.com/news/542616/first-gene-edited-dogs-reported-in-china/
I tend to warm to PETA concerning animals/dogs and medical experiments.
DeleteThe Guagzhou General Pharmaceutical Research Institute breeds over 2000 Beagles a year for research. Thats 2000 dogs that will live sad often tortured lives produced in a single year. They are also not the only ones, not by a long shot, not in China or the rest of the word. An estimated 26 million animals are used for research every year in the United States alone.
Due to the unnecessarily competitive and commercial nature of research in the name of benefiting man kind many many many dogs/animals suffer needlessly as the same experiments on live animals, dogs and apes are repeated and repeated and repeated in the same country and across the globe. The wastage is enormous and unacceptable, as is the suffering.
As far as gene editing is concerned to produce customised dogs they're a bit late, as selection the slow way seems to have most shapes and sizes covered already. Though there is always someone out there who wants a mini German Shepherd or a Chihuahua muscle ball.
I think even if it was more accurate it would still not be much use for producing healthy dogs because most of these conditions are due to intentional inbreeding amongst small gene pools. They would have to rewrite entire genetic codes, with all the possible unwanted side effects of each gene edit due to lack of accuracy. Outcrossing would be so much easier and safer.
Producing customised dogs is not going to work either for the same reasons. We already know the associated problems with breeding for extremes the same would apply to genetic customising, it would just be a short cut to producing ever more disasters.
In cattle, Belgian Blues have been selected for the same double muscling condition, they suffer serious issues with parturition, calf mortality, joint conditions, mobility conditions, cardiac problems and etc.
Which ever way you want to breed for extremes, selection or in the lab, the problems follow.
To produce these two mutant Beagles they edited 65 embryos, out of those only 27 puppies were born alive, out of those only two had disruptions in both copies of the myostatin gene (responsible for double muscling), in one the editing or disruption of myostatin was incomplete. Both look to the eye pretty normal and nothing like the bull-greyhound with the genetic disorder for double muscling. But why they just didn't cross the bullygreyhound with the beagle......
This is not terribly accurate anyway and will need to be repeated until the desired unrelated (preferably) dogs are born that they can then use in a breeding programme. And it will still be a mess of a dog?!
I'm imagining a Pitbull with a Border Collie intelligence.....could be creepy.
Just an example of the redundancy of much research. After years of research and animal wastage and death the Chinese were proud recently to announce the genetic manipulated pig with double muscling. While all along it already exists having been developed around 1930's in Belgium where it occurred as a natural mutation. The Pietrain pig suffers from heart problems due to the presence of the halothane gene associated with the condition which in turn causes Porcine Stress Syndrome and is not so popular as a pure breed as a result. However it is used as a terminal sire (as a cross) in integrated pork production to create leaner meat in some major pig producing countries today like Germany and Spain. Small herds of purebreds are kept just for this purpose.
Myostatin is so important, that any animal with this mutation was excluded from natural selection because of the disadvantages of not having it. I guess they couldn't run fast enough being hampered by huge sized muscles. So what do we do we purposely create the disadvantaged?!! A bulldog or a Neopolitan mastiff.....now we apparently want more?
"Due to the unnecessarily competitive and commercial nature of research in the name of benefiting man kind many many many dogs/animals suffer needlessly as the same experiments on live animals, dogs and apes are repeated and repeated and repeated in the same country and across the globe. The wastage is enormous and unacceptable, as is the suffering."
ReplyDeleteNot all animal testing is needed or necessary; however, there some flaws in the argument above.
1. Hey, this worked once. It will always work. No need to confirm with additional testing.
2. We can do all pre-clinical testing on humans, no need to test on animals. People are lining up to be given a disease (or bred to have a genetic disease) so we can determine the effectiveness of a potential drug, side effects, toxicity, impact on organ functions, etc.
3. No need for drug discovery to be commercial, we'll tax everyone to pay for the R&D (>$100B annually)
You're missing the point entirely.
Delete1) Yes there is a need to confirm results. There's also a need to make those results known to every other drug company, food manufacturer, cosmetic ..........
2) Of course we cant use humans they are precious, far more precious than any other animal species? The temples of god and other delusional superstitions. Also of course the worst pest/plague species this planet has ever known and probably will ever know.
3) No need for pharma companies to make such grotesquely huge profits either, nor for them to try and stop the rest of the world including millions of the worlds poor from using cheap generics, or for raping sick people with the price of their drugs.
etc
I'm not missing your point, I'm saying you're not taking into account whole picture (costs) of drug discovery.
Delete"In the United States, it takes an average of 12 years for an experimental drug to travel from the laboratory to your medicine cabinet. That is, if it makes it.
Only 5 in 5,000 drugs that enter preclinical testing progress to human testing. One of these 5 drugs that are tested in people is approved. The chance for a new drug to actually make it to market is thus only 1 in 5,000."
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9877
That's a lot of failures that must be funded by the successful drugs.
Most new drugs are no better than the ones replacing them, its all about market share.
DeleteI agree it does take a lot which is why governments should invest in this rather than expecting the sick and elderly to pay for it by being raped by pharma companies.
I would be quite happy if part of my taxes where spent on it.
My coworker has a 3/4 or 1/2 (can't remember) pug mix. It looks like a pug, but has longer nose, wider nostrils and dark chocolate color. I was a bit sceptical at first. Why use something as sick as a pug even in a cross? Why not use some healtier breeds?
ReplyDeleteBut this little lady is now 6 yo, very energetic and, so far, healty. She can run and actually trains agility very seriously. And also competes successfully (with a world class handler though, but still...)
(sorry for my english, Finland here again:))
-Tiia
Yes they are a lively little dog, like Boston terriers, its just so unfair that these breeds are bred so they cant breath and with several deformities of the skeletal system. Add to all of this inbreeding and resulting disease.....
DeleteI was merely surprised that adding just 1/4 of something else (small mix) makes a breed this mutilated so much healthier (I'm not saying healthy), that it is able to do those things.
Delete-Tiia
Ps. Found this earlier http://dduane.tumblr.com/post/96670053607/foxinu-perfectdogs-retro-pugs-this-is-a
Those retro pugs seem to have misaligned jaws.
DeleteYeah, at least the dark one seems a bit strange. I'm sorry, I'm no expert. Just found the pictures and thought they looked lot better than most I've seen. Hate flat faced dogs. I have different type of dogs myself and don't really know so much about pugs.
DeleteOr about the English KC to tell you the truth. Based on what I've learnt, I'm just totally horrified of the practice in the UK. We at least have some rules, health checks (and free open database of them). And very few professional breeders or big kennels... Not saying that everything would be perfect in here, but better, that's for sure.
-Tiia
(And still sorry for the English. It's only my fourth language, or so. Speaking is easy, but writing a foreign language is horrible)
Your English is excellent! I wish we had done more grammar at school. I can barely string a sentence together. All we seemed to do was play cricket and with each other.
DeleteFlat faced dogs do tend towards being undershot, it's not nice for them. All those so called "pet quality" show reject pugs with grotesquely undershot jaws and bulging wall eyes going West. The breeders still have the cheek to say they are superior in every way with their KC papers.
The Finnish and the Swedish KCs tend to be overall more enlightened it's true.
There is hope!
ReplyDeleteDid anyone see Paul O'Grady's For The Love on Dogs on UK television the other night.
They featured a black rescue pug that was the typical pug health wreck - breathing like a chain smoker and eyeballs that looked like they were going to pop right out of the skull at any moment. It was such a mutated sight that I almost brought up my dinner and that is no word of a lie.
What brought hope to my heart was that the Battersea vet was hugely critical of the breed, and explained to the general viewing public on a prime time TV show how breeding for their cute looks has destroyed their health and signs a warrant for a life of suffering (to paraphrase).
This wasn't just the odd sly remark either, he really labored the point.
Respect to the young man.
I just don't know how anyone who breeds these poor animals can sleep at night, and a comparison with Frankenstein spring to mind.
It must be time to end the suffering and let the Pug fade out gracefully.
Oh shame the poor wee mite. I can just imagine it being full of licks and wiggles too. Its double the tragedy when these little deformed half blind dogs then get abandoned.
DeleteThis is excellent news, though. Very soon this information will be common knowledge and the ignorant will be a minority. People just wont buy pugs unless they're bred differently. Even if the KCs are doing nothing about it, quite honestly they fully deserve the criticism they receive even as it taints all pedigree dog.
Of course rescuing a pug meantime is still an extremely kind and generous thing to do.
"The particularly strong relationship between BOAS and brachycephalic phenotypes suggests that, although BOAS susceptibility varies between breeds (Fig 2), breeding away from extreme brachycephaly would reduce BOAS risk generally. That said, whether breeds can feasibly be selectively bred for lower risk morphologies relies on there being sufficient existing phenotypic variability in the breed. That is not always the case, e.g. the highest CFR in the Japanese Chin in our studies was just 0.13, with an associated predicted BOAS probability of 0.83. Judicious out-crossing to introduce ‘safe’ conformations into a breed is controversial, but might be required on the basis of animal welfare in populations with extremely high prevalences of BOAS and limited morphological variation."
ReplyDeleteFrom here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0137496
DeleteWish that scientific evidence was enough to convince many breeders. I was just looking at some of their web sites...little shops of horror. Most still sell AKC or KC pedigrees for example as a sign of absolute quality. Along with everything else show dog stock tends to produce dogs with extreme compressed backs too. I noticed these "crab" dogs are not awarded by some European judges.
~
Yes the thing is it would be relatively easy to change the morphology of the pug but it seems no one cares enough. They wouldn't be able to show these dogs or register them or call them pedigree. So show breeders would ask what's the point? Anyway it seems like its not a pug unless it has a full page list of medical ailments.
The KC's definitely have to introduce initiatives. They however put positive spins on their own funded research that is clearly spelling out the problems with pedigree dogs. "Say no to cross breds"!?
Maybe banning breeds with these conditions related to intentional extreme morphology from being shown could be a real solution. The state to decide what can and cannot be displayed at public dog shows.
However you limit these exaggerations you will in fact effectively end up banning the breed unless changes are made in their breeding.
Its interesting that some "exceptional individuals" are able to breath normally with these extremes, the skull squashed and squished in an exaggerated way but exactly that does allows air to pass in and out in an unobstructed manner! Maybe the pallet folds up nice and neatly or is missing entirely and where the teeth, brain, eyes, pallet along with everything else are still having to ending up.....
But the problem is that the K.Cs have been promoting themselves so long as elite, exclusive breeders. The only ones with enough responsibility to breed ethicaly.
DeleteScientific evidence IS , I believe, enough to convince the Majority of breeders. By the majority, I don't mean the Majority of Pedigree Breeders. Maybe that too.
Its just not enough though to say "pedigree" dogs are in trouble. They all are, and thats too easy to point out. Followed by what "They, at least, are doing about it".
The solutions have to come through accepting community expectations and promoting values.
First we have to form them, and that takes discussion and debate.
Thats not possible when there is one group insisting they are the most responsible of any who call them selves breeders and refuse to participate or agree, with out claiming exemption.
" How valuable to science the pedigree system is!!
Any discussion should leave them out of expectations they see as unrealistic.
No one understands the complications of breeding with in the pedigree system and if we realy want to be responsible, we would join and conritibute."
When they believe they are the only ones ABLE to produce reliable quality, and promote that ideal, Theres nothing to discuss.
So accepted community expectations can't form consensus.Theres exemption claimed on the basis of Pedigree, or belonging to a "Breed"
All we can agree on is what we WON'T accept. And breeds, being most predictable, will assume fault 1st in any "defect" of the species.
Breed specific legislation is an inevitable longer term result of a closed system that doesn't recognize the species 1st.
If you choose to stand by "breed" over anything else, that will always separate you from your environment.
It must be recognized as a species 1st, before any dialogue can include all stake holders in its best interest. That can't happen until they formaly recognize that in the rules and constitution they believe in. That forms their directive.
Membership can NOT be dependent on breeding only to the K.Cs direction, and still maintain value to the community.
Nor can domestic dogs as a species thrive while we are taught to find fault and expectations are contiunualy erroded.
Until we can agree on practices that bring value,and teach those values, we are stuck with eliminating what we find unacceptable and thats not good for any of the species.
Biological physics applied to the species, taking into account the K.Cs role as a directive force in its evolution, seems to accurately explain why we are here, and predict the species demise.
Yes its true and most of us understand all too well, but suddenly a blank occurs when we are discussing animals. I think we need to all understand firstly that we are all in fact animals.
DeleteWe can predict the demise of the species as show breeds in closed registers under the present directive if we all understand that.
Kennel clubs for obvious reasons dont want anyone to understand that, the perilous direction they are taking biological physics. It would be the undoing of the entire superior closed pedigree premis.
Just can you imgine the panic governments would be under if their population had no where to go but become more and more inbred. It would be a national disaster!
Yes. In fact we can also "accurately" predict the species demise!
DeleteIt seems quite inconceivable in this day and age that people are unable to see where a closed system of breeding ultimately leads.
If pedigree dog breeds were human populations it would be considered a global crisis.
Maybe a leap of imagination but perhaps for whatever strange reason some of us don't believe we are animals ourselves? That humans are not another species of mammal? So believe what counts for us doesn't count for anything else, dog included?
That dogs have some kind of rudimentary biology with unlimited resilience to inbreeding but we don't because we're human, apart and already perfect, just as Gawd intended.
Or just plain unethical and simply dont care for as long as they can produce that winner that just goes further than anything else in the ring.
Everyone likes to win. Does it matter how thats achieved, at what expense? Maybe not to everyone. Its very selfish, we allow animals to trust us and then reward them with breeding them into the ground.
This may interest you:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/brachycephaly-its-more-than-just-the-pretty-face
Oh yes absolutely aweful. And can you imagine if the poor little pug gets a cold what happens to the mucus, it's got nowhere to drain or go!
DeleteThese are the type of Xrays that should be up on billboards in metros and tubes across cities. I dont think people actually understand what's going on in a pugs face and head and spine, or indeed its little heart.
My vet loves my dogs nose she has a particularly lovely haughty snout. He is used to all the Pekingese and pug types crosses and pedigrees around here. He lost a patient and was completely distraught about it, it was a pug he failed to resuscitate after it had a bad allergic reaction to its shots.