Horrified?
I hope so.
Think it couldn't happen here?
Think again.
This dog won Best of Breed at The Neapolitan Mastiff Club UK's Breed Open Show last weekend in Alfreton, Derbyshire
Ah, but one's a Shar-pei that isn't supposed to look like that, and one's a Neapolitan Mastiff that is!
You think that makes any difference to the dog?
The depressingly-named Vallino Reverend Wrinkle is owned by a nice chap called Sean Platts (above with his dog).
Now, the Rev Wrinkle has good hips, elbows and heart-score and, apparently, an eye certificate (although presumably not one that says he doesn't have ectropian). I've met Platts and he is something of a champion for Neapolitan Mastiff health testing. In his own way. But as we see in so many other deformed breeds, that way is within the confines of a breed standard distorted by the whim of fashion.
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| Neapolitan Mastif, 1958 |
I couldn't get anyone within the Neapolitan show community to go on the record re Rev Wrinkle's win as they were anxious about me using their quotes for my own "sensational aims". But I was told by one breeder that although the dog did have more loose skin than would these days be allowed in a KC champ show, I shouldn't be outraged because the show wasn't a qualifier for Crufts.
This, said my contact, allowed the judge to "go with her heart for a change"
The judge was Janet Gunn (Flintstock Bullmastiffs) who "loves big typical dogs and as she found one without an obvious health problem she gave him his moment in the spotlight that he will never get at a Championship Show in the UK today."
Right...So you can continue to have your fix... your guilty pleasure. As long as it's in an alleyway away from prying eyes.
As for "without an obvious health problem"... Did you see the dog's eyes? Did you see the evidence of skin disease on his muzzle?
But of course that's normal in this breed.
And just look at those stenotic nostrils - previously not a common feature in this breed, despite their other ills. When did that happen?
Some more pix of the Peruvian Shar-pei - click to enlarge if you can bear it. You can find the breeder on Facebook here. Please feel free to take a moment to tell him what you think of his dogs - and indeed all those on there telling him they think his dogs are beautiful.
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You think they're sleepy? Nope, they can't open their eyes. |
Wow, just... no. O_O
ReplyDeleteBefore, this was the worst Shar-Pei I had ever seen: http://www.vonwrinkles.com/winner.jpg
Plus some with moderate bodies, but horribly swollen faces like they'd been stung by a swarm of bees.
But this surpasses them like a mile. This is like the mastino Ghost in India.
You know, I have been visiting this very important blog since the beginning. Today was the first time that I have no words, only tears.
ReplyDeleteThis is horrific and it has to end. Jemima, thanks for trying to make a difference for our dogs.
To be honest this is no surprise. The people in this breed are clueless and in deep denial, same as those in the Clubs of the other most deeply wrecked breeds. As the dogs get odder, the freaks become normalized, and everyone tells each other it's allright. Fake histories are invented, pain is rationalized away. It's like a religion where the top priests say it's OK to rape children, and really who is to say the age of consent is not 8 or 12 or 13?
ReplyDeleteTo be fair Neo owners, like child rapists, are not common. Look it up. There are more hermaphrodites in the U.K, than there are Neopolitan Mastiffs, so the health concerns of this wrecked breed is hardly a main line concern in the world of dogs.
It;s best to think of Neo owners as people who have serious canine dysmorphic disorders who also have a kind of Münchausen Syndrome. They are mental cases.
Think of the dogs as simply being an external manifestation of a rare mental disorder that the owners and breeders share.
It's like people who are addicted to plastic surgery, or those who inject their children with feces to get attention at the hospital, or those who put tattoos all over their face.
This is dog is all about people who are attention whoring, and it's never been about function or health, has it? Treat the mental illness of the owners and the breeders (Pfizer makes a product I think!) and the dogs will disappear.
Agree PBurns. This is a mental disorder. The people draw attention to themselves by creating these horrifically disfigured dogs, a bit like Munchausens by proxy. Unfortunately, this weakness in the human psyche gets exploited through ideology and the ability for people to continue their warped behaviour because it is reinforced through the show ring.
DeleteJemima, have you thought about approaching an anthropologist, psychologist or other practicing expert in human mental disorders to try to explain what is happening here? I think it needs a really serious emphasis. This suffering inflicted on dogs is very, very scary,
I am a huge admirer of Bonemouth Shar Peis. I get invited to Facebook groups about western Shar Peis, one of them a health group. The discussion there sometimes makes me want to vomit. The dogs have all kinds of horrible issues and the owners are just boo-hooing together and then planning about their next dogs. How can someone buy a dog that they KNOW FOR CERTAIN is going to be just as sick as the previous one, over and over again?
DeleteReligion, mental illness blah blah blah that about makes them normal in some of the West's more "enlightened" nations?
DeleteYes it does seem to be a common trait of the human condition to breed animals like these but as far as I can see in this case the prime reason was and remains good old fashioned capitalism. Filthy lucre coupled with a ready demand. Sadly a human condition that seems for the most to run rampantly unchallenged leaving much destruction in its path, true.
We have plenty healthy enough Shar-peis here where I now live and work. In fact you can get any number running wild on the mountainsides, breeding in storm drains or found "rescued" in animal shelters. Of course none look like these grotesque unfortunate animals pictured and none are being sold for ridiculously large sums of money to foreigners anymore. This is "the original" or feral "Shar-pei" minus most of the health problems except perhaps a high predisposition to suffering from demodectic mange.
The puppies are adorably wrinkly but by about the time they reach about one - three months of age all that's left of these wrinkles is just a little crease in the soft velvet coat, between the eyes on the forehead of their little bright almost terrier in expression heads.
The wrinkled puppy "look" was such a novelty and novelty sells that breeders invented a "rare breed" and made sure the wrinkles lasted into adulthood. In doing so fudging horribly a perfectly acceptable village dog.
Almost an area specific pariah dog in type it seems to have completely and happily survived all, cultural revolutions, a welcome delicacy of poverty and even in this case a product of human greed. Yes right here wild on Hong Kong's mountainsides.
Spay neuter and release will no doubt be having it's affects which seems a pity. Not only can they make charming pets but they are particularly adept at keeping our rat population under control.
Fasion an appetite for ever more novelty and ways to express wealth are mostly responsible for this particular wreck of a show dog. Even if the breed has lost most of its appeal in the West these dogs continue to suffer. Yes just a small problem in the UK perhapse but an ever growing one elsewhere. Unfortunately in many developing nations or emerging economies it's simply being repeated.
I feel for people who say they went out of their way to import a pedigree dog from America or the UK with the sole aim of trying to ensure they get a healthy dog. It just doesn't work like that.
Thats why blogs like these are so crucial, exposing the breeds for what they are with pictures is very worthy. Even if breeders are unable to listen or see the public can, very much so as they don't have as much vested interest in dog shows.
Nara the local ones are like this "bone" mouth, the fleshy wrinkled atrocities are an American invention. The local ones display a wide type including tall, heavy, racy, small petite, muscly, all look like Shar-peis but none are meaty mouthed or over wrinkled. So it should be for the function of a dog any dog.
DeleteAll present standards should be scrapped but especially the American one. They should call that dog something else, maybe The American Grotesque Oriental Fantasy?
Agree with everything you've said Patrick. This time.
DeleteOh my! I don't think I've ever seen such "deformed" dogs before. Those Shar-Pei truly are a sorry sight. I just don't understand what possesses people to breed such unhealthy looking animals. It's just so sad that the people breeding these dogs think that because a piece of paper dictates the dog should look like a freak, that's what they should do, at the risk of other important factors such as health and temperament...and indeed the ability to function as a normal dog. Surely this loose skin hampers the dogs movement greatly?
ReplyDeleteOh my, this has got to be seriously uncomfortable / painfull for these dogs, the weight of all that excess skin, the inpairment of sight and a nose swamped by swollen skin must make life for these poor dogs horrendous. What is wrong with these people these dogs are undoubtably suffering, it is inhumane to continue breeding these dogs, breeders ought to be prosecuted and banned from keeping animals it's nothing more than cruelty....
DeleteThanks for highlighting this in your blog, I just hope that you have more of a platform than me of getting people, especially breeders to change the way they breed, and to get stupid people to stop buying dogs for looks and focus more on the health, not how many times a dog can go under the knife just so it can have a happy life. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI assure you that this is NOT the norm for shar-pei, and responsible breeders would NEVER think of doing this to the breed. Myself, I never bred for wrinkles. A "moderately" wrinkled shar-pei is the best. Mainly wrinkles on the shoulders in adulthood. Good breeders are just as appalled by this as are you. Sadly, it's the $$ that can be made on extreme examples of breeds, so the unscrupulous breeders will continue to breed for this, until there is no market for them. Shame on them!
DeleteYes, horrible cosmetic touches that interfere with basic function and detract from overall health. Cultivation of freaks is a sick aspect of many cultures.
ReplyDeleteBut don't lose sight of the fact that even with relatively normal wrinkle factors, the Neo-mastiff and shar-pei are both deeply unhealthy breeds. On average, both breeds have life expectancies at birth of around five years . . . about half that of a pug! (See Finnish KC database). Early death from crippling musculo-skeletal problems is distressingly common in many of the giant breeds. As for the shar-pei, resurrecting a breed from a nearly extinct exotic fighting breed is a dubious proposition, and pretty much hopeless if the breeders involved aren't selecting their stock for health. Does anyone have any data on the COI's for these exaggerated breed sub populations. I'll bet there's some radical inbreeding going on to get such wildly grotesque looks. Who knows what other, less visible health risks they carry.
As someone who wouldn't dream of owning a grotesquely exaggerated dog, I'd prefer more emphasis on core breed problems in pedigree dogs, and less focus on the photogenic (photo vile?) outliers. What about cancer risk in the BMD? Narrow skulls and dumbing down of rough collies? Tolerance of unstable temperament in many breeds. The people who would want a dog with a face that looks like a morel mushroom are not reading this blog.
Jennifer, the narrow skull equals stupidity is an argument about one century old. There´s a problem with it: it´s wrong. Yes, the Rough Collies have been bred for elongated skulls, but the brain cavity size is the same as that of other breeds of comparable body size. The dumbing-down in show collies is another thing. If you´ve bred dogs - from an effective breeding basis in the UK now down to catastrophic 33! - for generations with the aim of touring the shows with as much coat and as little eye as you could possibly get, and keep the dogs in kennels for the rest of the time - what use would you have for intelligence, curiosity and courage? The loss of brain in this once-famous working breed, and the substitution of timidity and poor nerves, is not matter of skull shape. It´s a matter of show breeder prioritizing the wrong thing. As usual.
DeleteBodil Carlsson
Perhaps World Wellfare for Animals maybe misnamed should be altered to these atrocities. Where is the KC regarding the Neo? The weight of that loose skin alone is a great disability. They should remove any association with him and ban his like from the show ring. They should be contacting the Peruvian KC and express their disgust at what we see above, it is disgraceful. What is wrong with these people apart from as outlined above, they are just self seeking nutcases. OMG, the poor, poor dogs.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately science has shown that "core breed problems" and the "photogenic...outliers" are one and the same. For example, in the Shar pei, the wrinkles are the disease with the years of breeding for phenotype concentrating the disease. The Shar pei is suffering and dying because they are Shar pei.
ReplyDeleteScience has shown? If so, please cite references.
DeleteI would not be surprised if the bone mouth shar pei had their own health problems, and I doubt that a 'normal' meatmouth shar pei has a life expectancy much longer the Peruvian freaks. For a veterinary catalog of shar pei maladies, I recommend http://drjwv.com/pdf/owners_guide.pdf
I'm sure some of the problems mentioned get worse where breeders select for extreme wrinkles and fail to select for health, but that doesn't make the less extreme examples healthy.
As for the Neo, giant breeds in general are prone to hip, elbow, cruciate, and other skeletal/muscular problems, and have low life expectancies. I have no problem with pointing at the segment of these breeds that has gone overboard with the wrinkles. I do have a problem with ignoring the other breed health issues. You are dead wrong. Wrinkles do not cause skeletal malformation or giantism, and breeders who do not select for extreme skin folds are still going to have to worry about health in other dimensions.
Ann Cardon is dead right. The wrinkling is directly associated with disease.
Delete"A Novel Unstable Duplication Upstream of HAS2 Predisposes to a Breed-Defining Skin Phenotype and a Periodic Fever Syndrome in Chinese Shar-Pei Dog"
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1001332
Great article! Why wasn't it brought into discussion earlier? This would have been an excellent post if the argument had been posed in terms of breeding for a genetic abnormality causing problems, rather than 'look at these freaks, they are suffering'. Or, "these wrinkles are not only ugly, they are linked to an auto-inflammatory disease associated with inbreeding to bring out a rare mutation".
DeleteIt is stretching things to say Ann Cardon is dead right. I stick to the statement that "Wrinkles do not cause skeletal malformation or giantism, and breeders who do not select for extreme skin folds are still going to have to worry about health in other dimensions."
Dogs of all breeds were nearly eliminated in Maoist China. With millions of people starving to death during the Great Leap Forward, few dogs survived. The shar pei made Guinesses Book of World Records in 1978 as the world's rarest dog breed.
Pulling a breed back from near-extinction is likely to result in MANY health problems and a highly inbreed population. The authors of that article write "On four chromosomes (Cfa 5, 6, 13 and X) the reduction in heterozygosity in Shar-Pei was greater than 4-fold the average of control breeds." This implies a high degree of inbreeding. If those 'reviving' the breed select for extreme characteristics, the problems will be ever so much worse.
With scientific evidence cited, I agree, Ann Cardon is partly right. However, no breed reconstructed by Western enthusiasts from a handful of dogs and then bred to some fanciful notion of what the dog should look like is going to be healthy. And it would be a mistake to think the wrinkle-mutation syndrome is the sole, or even the main health problem confronting the breed.
It is ironic that the traditional shar pei (btw. the Chinese characters mean sand coat, so I don't see why they should be capitalized) was valued for a certain type of wrinkles on the forehead. These were considered auspicious due to supposed resemblance to the Chinese character for longevity. http://www.hkshar-pei.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=browse&id=197386&pageid=90
Sad to see a breed selected by superstitious belief about shapes of wrinkles rather than selection for actual longevity.
Was just picking up on you telling Ann Cardon she was "dead wrong"...
DeleteI have posted many times about the genetics/genetic problems of the Shar-pei with refs to the relevant papers.
Jemima
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/sharpei-will-wrinkles-have-to-go.html
Deletejemma Harrison, I'm a mastino fancier. i was at the clubsow in the uk and indeed that dog won. He's overdone that is true But he is healty! no skinproblems like you say!. but you should have post pics of his 2 brothers who were there to. Totaly Healthy, much less wrinkled extreme good eyes that you can see! very good hips and elbows Topcondition!!!!!..... I live in belgium and i did import my dog out of the uk because they do health test! Here you can breed how you want to..... My dog has eyes you can see, a condition you should see! Unbeleiveble what they allready achieved in just a few generations! So don't bring them down if you know what they are doing...
DeleteRikstje, if you were at the show and you saw this dog win, you love the breed, you recognised the difference between healthy dog with breed traits, then why o why o why didn't you object to the secretary of the club. Have you notified the UK KC of your concerns? If not then could you send them photographs of your dog, the Rev Wrinkle's brothers so they can understand why you are concerned for the breed. "So don't bring them down if you what they are doing...." you know what they are definitely doing so register your objection along with anyone else who is also interested and loves the breed. PDE highlights the problems to inform people of what is going on, you show so you are in the midst so please use your power to stop these abominal breeding practices.
DeleteJemima, please tell me these photos are manipulated photo shop jobs? There cannot be real, living dogs like this and people deluding themselves it`s OK?
ReplyDeleteIn the blog you said:
ReplyDelete'As for "without an obvious health problem"... Did you see the dog's eyes?'
Ah, that was one of the things that bothered me - because I couldn't see the eyes AT ALL. Poor bloody dogs.
Bex
Truly sad. Why do so many people feel compelled to alter the animals that live with them? It's not just domestic wolves (dogs). It's also house cats, geckos, goldfish, and more. These poor creatures are victims of the whims of people who feel the need to toy with their bodies, altering their size, appearance, and unfortunately, their health and longevity. The situation will not improve until people appreciate these animals for what they are, and desire welfare for them more than they crave unusual traits.
ReplyDeleteHoly crap. Its like looking at the treeman suddenly becoming fashionable and having him breed with other specifically for his disease. Absolutely horrible.
ReplyDeleteDear heavens. That's just horrific. How do they eat? Play? It just looks painful.
ReplyDeletedyslexic dog complex... complete, with accolades.
ReplyDeleteThese are examples of extreme breed type...but if the KCs and breed clubs don't make a rapid reversal in direction soon, this is what we are going to see more and more of. I dont know much about how the Neo folks and how they run their club but from what I have seen in the Shar Pei clubs and AKC they are just going along with the status quo as if (as Ann Cardon pointed out above) these very same cosmetic traits weren't killing a sizeable percentage of the dogs....quite literally. No one in our KC or CSPCA leadership is talking about modifying the AKC breed standards for more moderation in breed type. None are talking about the crisis in our gene pool. Most of the breeders aren't either and those of us that do say what needs to be said are pilloried for it. All the issues this breed has and what are the CSPCA's club forum's content???? Nationals, Trophy donations, regionals, nationals and nationals....very little that isnt specifically about conformation showing. Almost no discussion of health issues and no discussion about how to repair the genetic train wreck that is our current genepool. It is very discouraging for those that do want to salvage this breed and restore it back to the healthy, sound, basic dog that it was for MANY centuries before we got ahold of them in the 70s and turned them into what they are today.
ReplyDeleteWe should be changing the breed standards to discourage excessive breed type. We need to be consulting with experts on population genetics to see what can be done to shore up the gene pool in the short run and to expand it...even if that means opening up the registries for new blood. The few of us that are exploring other options (importing healthier traditional stock for breeding) are getting criticized and accused of breeding "pet quality" (inferior) dogs because they do not have enough breed type to fit the (flawed) breed standard.
Just let it go for goodness sake. Why do you need to breed a dog like this anyway? Hardly the best temperament as a pet and looking at the absolute mess that it is you're wasting your time putting time and effort into restoring a breed when you could be doing something better with your time. Try focusing on breeding dogs that are temperamentally sound and fit for the 21 st century. The past has gone. The future does not need dogs like this in it.
DeleteClearly you know little about this breed. Most have lovely temperaments, are very social and very gentle. This is a breed worth putting effort and time in to try and save. As far as health issues most are limited to the meatmouth population. The genotypical traditionals actually have very few health problems (as it is a more basic dog w/o the phenotypically related health issues that plague the meatmouth western shar pei). Maybe you should try doing some actual research before forming an opinion and telling others what to do with their time.
DeleteThese dogs are undoubtedly the saddest, most depressing thing I have ever seen. Made me feel quite sick actually.
ReplyDeleteI've seen some pretty grotesque photos on here but I think these ones take the cake. Poor, poor dogs.
ReplyDeletei show myself but am truly horrified by the over exaggeration of the Shar Pei in Peru, a true 'chocolate box dog, its not just the show people who are to blame its the public who insist that wrinklier is cutest with no thought for how their puppy will grow up
ReplyDeleteMartin
Most breeds clubs don't have their hearts in the changes in Standards brought in by the KC in response to criticism. "Commitment to health" is really no more than the delusion that health testing can somehow lead to the holy grail of exaggerated form that doesn't lead to health issues.
ReplyDeleteFor all it's faults the Kennel Club does have a little more perspective than the breed clubs when it comes to addressing exaggeration. Sadly, they seem to be back-peddling from taking on the vested interests and forcing through fundamental change.
Kevin Colwill
A perfect example of the K.Cs breeding for the K.Cs, not their environment. What environment outside of the K.Cs are these dogs suited to?
ReplyDeleteYet breed a dog perfectly suited to the life and locality you live in, perfectly able to compete in trials to show skill at a job, healthy, mentaly sound and stable.
Then try to publicly take pride in that animal. Wait for the attack, it will come.
Such a dog would be a product of its environment. Competition and shows are closed to it.
Dogs bred for the environment they are to live in are inherently unethical if they don't have pedigree papers. ( according to the majority of K.C members, as they are taught. The Most emphasized point in the K.Cs charter ) Dogs are meant to be predictable, not adaptable. They aren't meant to evolve, they don't have to be a demonstration. Just preserved as a "perfect" illustration.
Don't blame the buyers of extreme dogs for their exsistence.
The K.Cs drum the message that only the K.Cs have the expertise, knowledge and understanding to breed dogs responsibly and ethicaly, avoiding the many genetic nightmares lying in wait for the un-initiated. Its priveledged information that only K.C membership can give access to. Outsiders aren't taught, they are held up as examples of greed or ignorance.
Then they bemoan that Joe public has no understanding of dogs, their care and welfare, their health or their behaviour and call for more restrictions on who can own or breed. Shrinking the environment more, shrinking the knowledge and understanding more.
So people who buy dogs like the ones illustrated above should not be held accountable. Their environment is being shaped and moulded by the K.Cs so that they will accept the K.Cs judgements as the only reliable source.
The potential health problems all dogs face, pure or cross, will only increase while this prevails. While pedigree lines are increasingly concentrated, and continue to devolve, they are also increasingly the available choice for breeding outside the K.Cs as well.
And since the breeders guard their 'Best" lines well, its usualy the rejects that are able to contribute to any cross breeding. So the whole species devolves.
Aussie
Aussie, your first sentence is absolutely brilliant and encapsulates exactly what is wrong with purebred dog breeding undertaken by unethical, greedy, mental dog breeders.
ReplyDeleteI honestly think most* dog show breeders are suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
ReplyDelete"Some people diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder
That would be empathy for the crippled dogs they are breeding in pursuit of rosettes.
*There are a small minority of ethical dog breeders who genuinely care about the long-term health and welfare of the dogs they breed and their breeding reflects this.
Same old same old of then goibg on to attack people who show. Of the 10k entries per dog show only bobs get rosettes, the majority of us go knowing that will not be us and go for the social day out and enjoying our furrie friends. Contary to popular belief there is many healthy show dogswho live perfectly normal lives. My own dogs have beautiful white coats for the ring but any othet time can get as mucky as they like. Being a spitz breed they are a very natural dog with no exaggerationsand live to a decent age too. Stop lumping everyone in the same category as the people who breed these abominations. You only have to see that in every advert of late it is a pug/frenchie or bulldog to realise that the general public are just as much to blame.
ReplyDeleteThat old chestnut, a "social day out." By saying "many health show dogs" infers you accept their are unhealthy show dogs, so you suggest nothing should be done, because some are healthy.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Spitz, the tail is an exaggeration and stops the dog having its full range of communication, breeding a dog with a tail high set that curls over. You really have to understand the dogs wide range of communication through its body language to understand a dogs exaggerations. Can a Spitz raise its shackles ?, if not you can add that to the exaggeration list. Most dogs have had this bred out of them and is an important part of their range of body language communication. Unfortunately most people know very little about the subtle ways dogs communicate and thus breed them with exaggerations that they think have no effect on their health, but dogs also have a mental health that includes being able to communicate with other dogs and most external physical exaggerations hinder this process for dogs.
Yes I agree Anon, these dogs pictured here can't even show their facial expressions a complete traversty. You can't even see their eyes makes you wonder what they can see.
DeleteI didnt know that some breeds had bred out the rising "shackles".
This is awful.
Seriously stop talking crap, the tail causes no issue with communication. It is a good job you lot never got your way the first time and that show entries are now recovering after the recession. Yes I am sure there is plenty of unhealthy show dogs just the same as the unhealthy crosses and mongrels I see but that will not stop me enjoying mine and being proud of them.
ReplyDeleteIt's not crap and you have shown how you don't understand a dogs body language by your comment. What do you actually think a dog has a tail for ?
DeleteYou be proud of manipulating a dogs genetics to please your eye, without any thought for the dog. Having a curled up tail serves no purpose other than you like the look of it.
Anonymous 9:11, as you think it is "talking crap" when someone says that the tail is used for communication, could you enlighten us to what you think a tail is on a dog ? What you think the purpose of a tail is ? What purpose does it serve to breed a dog with a curled over tail ?
ReplyDeletedo you think a spitz breed can not wag his/her tail? do you think they are incapable of dropping the tail when anxious/worried? do you know that if they are inquisative or frisky they will wag their tail rapidly just like any other dog??? unless you have lived with a spitz breed it is probably unadvisabler to assume you know how they communicate.
ReplyDeleteJust because a purpose of something is not yet understood you should not assume it had no purpose, it may possibly came about because they are dogs of cold climate and with the tail staying close to the body it kept it warmer.
All you are displaying is your own ignorance, my dogs have many chums who do not have curled tails and they ll get on just lovely.
The extreme curl over we see of the small type Spitz has come about from the show ring. We see in the working type bigger Spitz breeds a curl on some but to no way the extreme that we see with show types. The curl over of the tail actually leaves the anus more exposed to the cold and as a dog with a normal tail carriage like a wolves can easily curl its tail in around itself when asleep to keep warm, the curling of the tail would not be seen as advantages in keeping a dog warm, just probably some made up thing by the show breed world to justify a extreme curled tail, a bit like the nose roll on Bull dogs to keep blood out of the eyes. Lol
DeleteA Spitz is a dog and a breed of dog, so its communication is that of a dog. Love it when a person thinks because they have a pure breed some how they are at a different level of communication. Its a dog, get over yourself.
As for the chums bit, its amazing how through our ignorance of breeding dogs without thought for their communication between each other, how well they have adapted and get on, but it is known through research and stats that dogs that have less communication skills through having exaggerations such as curled tails etc,( one thing a curled tailed Spitz cannot do is hold its tail straight up or straight out and wag, which a dog at a distance can see, the submissive gesturing you mention is the type that is given at close quarters, just being able to wag a tail which is curled is harder for another dog to understand and not being able to signal with a tail straight up really hinders the dogs signalling) are more higher chance of being attacked by a strange dog. What would be interesting is to see how your dogs get on when meeting total strangers rather than chums.
The purpose of the tail is mostly understood, balance and communication and I just wanted to hear what you thought it was for and as for showing ignorance, asking questions is being just like you describe a Spitz "inquisitive", its not being ignorant, but saying people are "talking crap" and are "displaying is your own ignorance" is just plain rude, especially when not put with any reasoned argument.
oh and hear comes the anecdotal irrefutable proof as opposed to actually, you now, looking up scientific evidence?? So you have lived with a breed of dog and you are familiar with it - big deal. It doesn't make you an expert, merely familiar.
Deletego and do some simple research on dog communication…http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/left-or-right-tail-wags-elicit-different-emotional-responses-from-dogs/
no need to do research i spend my life with dogs of many different types.
Deletethe spitz are no different with strange dogs we meet on walks and after many years ownership they have not once been attacked,
i do not need the research i live the the life and experience instead, something a text book can not give you.
I think you just defined ignorance, Anonymous 12:27 by what you just said then.
DeleteA dog does not have to be attacked to prove the point. I have lived with many types of dog mostly working dogs and have noticed the difference in confidence in dogs when meeting strange dogs from those with almost full functioning body signals and those inhibited by their face or tail be exaggerated more. My dogs have not been attacked, as I said, you don't have to prove the point by having a dog attacked, but I know from watching them, its easier for them with a full functioning tail and more normal facial features to be understood more instantly by other dogs.
I come from a family that we would not know what it is to not walk with a dog at our heel for many generations and although familiar with dogs on a level most are not, I am not that much up my own back sided to not look at research etc, so I can enable my dogs to have a good life and so forth. The ability to move forward and admit mistakes and address them, is admirable and unfortunately lacking in most pure breed advocates and like you, to stick your fingers in your ears and believe you know all because you are living it, is laughable at best and dangerous for the welfare of dogs at worst.
'No need to do any research....' What an arrogant piece of work you are! How dare you think that you know everything there is to know about dogs simply because you have lived with a few! People like you absolutely are detrimental to the welfare of dogs. Refusing to educate yourself yet thinking you are above and beyond questioning and challenging on very very valid points. There is scientific evidence that verifies how and why dogs use their communication signals both with humans and other dogs. Your posts epitomise Fran's point about show breeders having characteristics of narcissistic personality disorder.
DeleteAnon 12:27
DeleteCongratulations. You have demonstrated exactly what is wrong with the show breeding world of dogs. Refusing to do any research; thinking that you know all you need to know about dogs yet aggressively attacking people who challenge you about breeding dogs for form not function.
Well done. Keep it up as we still need the evidence to convince people that there are many clueless, uneducated, arrogant and egotistical people who are ruining it for the people who really want to breed dogs for the right reasons. Health and welfare. And that includes honouring the dog's right to be ale to communicate effectively, as nature intended.
Actually i never said anything about not doing research, i said about not reading your research, the only one demonstrating whats wrong with people is you demonstrating your ability to attack a whole group of people based on a small minority.. i find you obnoxious and holier than thou but i would never say the whole group on this board are that way, their is many decent people on here who care about dog welfare and that concerns every dog not just the small minorityof show dogs rather than the millions of dogs bred every year.
DeleteI spend much time reading about different issues relevant to my dogs or breeding programs etc i just do not need to shout about it to all and sundry.
In response to leaving dogs as nature intended then i assume to are a supporter of leaving dogs to roam free and entire to mate with whatever choice the dog would make?? also are we no longer have dog breeds? maybe just a one dog fits all?
Are your dogs as extreme as your comments I wonder? Who said anything about no longer having dog breeds? Only you! You clearly have not read these comments objectively. Understand that people carining about canine welfare means that they can challenge you until the cows come home about you and your breeding experience and education. Why? Because you and everyone else is part of a SOCIETY. That means we have a collective responsibility to the welfare of dogs. Suggest you read some evolutionary biology and try to understand what people want. They want their dogs to look like dogs. With a muzzle please! Ears and coat fit for the environment they inhabit; an ability to signal and communicate clearly a nd effectively, unhampered by the grotesque human ideology of canine beauty.
DeleteAre you a bit thick?? My dogs arw not extreme examples, I am on no way supporting the abominations that are on this page, if you reread the comments I clearly state that. What I did say is do not lump everyone that enjoys canine activities in the same camp. The only person who needs to do some reading is you and recheck the comments. You are in no way being helpful only condescending and all you are achieving is for no one to pay any attention to your hatred of the canine fancy.
DeleteIf you are breeding to an aesthetic breed standard that has no functional or physiologica benefit for the dog, then you are also probably a bit thick too.
DeleteThe canine fancy is a waste of time and energy. Celebrate dogs for their ability to function as colleagues and pets, not for the way they look. Showing dogs is not a sport. Actually, HBO have just screened a segment about this actually. They have consulted Chris on Border Wars for his opinions on the state of pedigree dog breeding.
That is in your opinion, the massive amounts of general public that choose a dog on the aesthetic appeal of the dog of their choice would beg to differ, the majority of people choose their pets on looks first shows this.
DeleteBecause that is what the public have been led to believe and is therefore socially acceptable. It's a weakness in huamn psychology. Look up 'meme'. Doesn't make it right does it? Continuing to breed dogs within a paradigm of closed gene pools when evidence strongly suggests that this can and does cause health and welfare suffering is an example of cognitive dissonance. You may wish to research that too.
DeleteThis is the 21st century. People are welfare savvy, have access to science, evidence, alternative opinions and are educated to question and challenge institutions and authority. We are taught to do this because this is a hallmark of a civilised and progressive society. You can not keep defending what ou are doing, simply because you happen to enjoy it.
"The extreme curl over we see of the small type Spitz has come about from the show ring. We see in the working type bigger Spitz breeds a curl on some but to no way the extreme that we see with show types. The curl over of the tail actually leaves the anus more exposed to the cold and as a dog with a normal tail carriage like a wolves can easily curl its tail in around itself when asleep to keep warm, the curling of the tail would not be seen as advantages in keeping a dog warm..."
DeleteUmmm, I support this blog and what it stands for but as an owner of toy dogs with curled tails, I think you are a bit off here. They carry their tails on their back but are also quite capable to letting it drop when upset or stressed and their anus is as adequately protected. They would have far more issues with predators and small body size if they lived in the wild than they would with "unprotected anuses."
Interesting about spitz tails as you do see them in village dogs. I noticed watching the Top Gear Burma special (!) that a lot of the village dogs had curled/spitz like tails. I wonedr if there IS a selective advantage to having them in some parts of the world, or that the genes are particularly dominant/linked to something else highly selective? Or maybe, they're simply mutts from pedigrees from generations ago?
DeleteHowever, pet dogs DON'T have to worry about predators so much (!) so we shouldn't be thinking of excuses along those lines of why we need to keep selecting for a curled tail that looks 'pretty' to some people. Again, the show ring pushes for exaggeration - it can't be denied.
again I state my spitz breed that has a very curled tails was developed 30 years before it was seen in the show ring so that argument does not hold true.
DeleteThe show ring continues to encourage it's exaggeration though.....through the breed standard. Whati if you had sound, otherwise healthy dogs but the didn't have breed standard tails. They wouldn't get to breed would they?
DeleteIt's utter bollocks.....
actually again crap on ypur part, I have a beautiful bitch who was very lazy with her tail which is down more than up and yes she did have puppies. you change the argument everytime to suit yourself. I am not fixated on just one thing overall on a dog.
DeleteAnon, how can a dog be 'lazy with it's tail'. Do you think it understands it should keep it curled over it's back?!! Priceless...
DeleteAnd we're still focusing on the ridiculousness of selecting for curled tails which reflects how silly this thread has become.....because writing a curled tail into a breed standard is silly and ridiculous anyway.
it is just a phrase, she drops it because she doesn't keep it up, nothing more nothing less.
DeleteJust incase you've missed it in the many other posts, THIS BREED ALREADY HAD A TAIL CARRIED OVER THE BACK 30YEARS BEFORE IT WAS EVER SHOWN , THE BREED STANDARD WAS WROTE OF A OBSERVATION OF HOW THIS BREED LOOKED WHEN IT WAS WROTE, THE STANDARD HAS ONLY EVER BEEN CHANGED ONCE IN MANY YEARS AND THAT WAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TAIL.
save your wrath for the people who actually do do harm to the breeds not simply because you have issues for people being attracked to the beauty of different types of dogs.
AMEN.
but see you are up your own backside, it is evident with the dropping in about how you have had dogs etc, it is of my opinion my dogs communicate just fine with their fellow none curled tails , i have seen do difference with how they communicate than how my lab does or my moms rhodesian etc, also the my aunts 2 Rhodesians had to have his tails amputated due to trauma, he certainly did not become able to communicate with other dogs.
ReplyDeleteSee you don't digest what is said. Its not saying that a dog can't communicate when its bred with exaggerated features, its that it makes it harder for them to communicate and harder for other other dogs to know what their about. I also say above its amazing how through our ignorance to dogs communication, how well they do communicate still when bred so exaggerated.
DeleteI have just brought home a dog from the vets who has had a leg amputated and part of its tail and the rest of the pack, although she has been brought up here for two years where weary of her, to start with at a distance and this would be her different body shape and lack of tail. We have eleven dogs and introduced her back in with small groups and all was okay, don't need my dogs to attack each other to know the subtle body language of a situation when dogs are not that comfortable with something.
So no one is saying a dog cannot communicate with exaggerated features, you just make it harder for them.
I also don't say I'm not up my own back side, I actually infer I'm up their but not as far as some.
Anon, I hate to break this to you, but we have greatly changed ALL dogs from their natural form. Their natural form is a wolf, and is impossible to live with. I hope you are not actually suggesting we ONLY breed dogs with wolf features--- ONLY breed dogs with pricked pointed ears and massive coats and natural tails that look just so. Every single thing we have done to change the dog's appearance from the wolf has altered its behavior and communication in some way. And yet, they cope. Attacking extreme dogs like the poor ones pictured here is fine, but criticizing Spitz-type dogs for having curled tails is frankly ridiculous. It's also harder for dogs with down ears or collie ears to communicate. And yet many down-ear breeds are the friendliest, most dog-social dogs that exist. The attack on spitz-tails is over the top and reflects poorly on the poster(s) who made those claims. I have a docked dog and he is the most bomb-proof dog with other dogs I have ever had the pleasure to know. Other dogs like him, even those dogs who are often shy or dog-aggressive. He communicates just fine. Dogs are adaptable. Posture, direction of gaze, tenseness or relaxedness of lips, blinking eyes, curve of body, etc all communicate the dog's intent. Dogs can read dogs with altered tails and ears, in much the same way we can understand people with different accents.
DeleteBe great if you could provide us with some evidence on your theories on dog communication claims as opposed to simply regaling anecdotes on your own dog! Docked tails and curled hamper dog communication systems. Most expert behaviourists agree.
DeleteBeth, I hate to break it to you but I did not say that dogs cannot communicate, but certain exaggerations make it harder for them, just as a person with a strong accent is harder to understand than someone without one. This has been proven through experiments with dogs and those that resemble their ancestors the closest have a fuller range of communication. So I'm not suggesting we breed dogs to all look like wolves, but take more care in why we breed an exaggeration and what effect it will have on the dogs life. I would rather my dog just does not have to cope with how I decided I wanted it to look.
DeleteThe Russian fox experiments in domestication are very interesting, but the tail was curled on the tamer foxes, but not the extreme that we see in some breeds and some of the most gentle breeds have a curl to the tail, but the extreme curl we see on show breeds has no more purpose than to please the eye. Did you know Beth, that some scientists don't even think the fox has been categorized in the right species and don't consider them truly canine ?
The book "In the defence of dogs" covers the Russian fox experiments and is a good read on the domestication and development of the domestic canine and is written by John Bradshaw, who has many papers on this subject, if you get the book there are many references in the back to experiments and the papers written on the subject of dogs and the breeding of them.
As for you thinking someone is attacking by saying it is harder for a dog to communicate with an extreme curled over tail, as to a less extreme curled tail, sorry but the science bares me out on that one.
Sorry simply not true my spitz breed was developed long before they were in the show ring and i am talking 30+ years.
DeleteMost dog types were developed before the show ring got hold of them.If you can find some old paintings of spitz type dogs, you will see a curled tail, but not to the extreme of the ones we see showing. Some spitz breeds don't have a curled tail, so it shows its not a must have, its one of those things wanted and when they started to breed the tail more curled, not much was known about the body language of animals and the tail was just seen as something ornamental on the dog, for some that ideology has still not changed much, by the comments on this.
DeleteInteresting to note that some of the first changes to show up in the tame fox experiment were flop ears and curly tails (though I can't find a source that defines how curly is curly). It seems breeding only for tameness results in some surprising physical changes over time. The idea that looks have something to do with temperament probably has some merit, though we have taken that to an extreme in some cases.
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2010/09/06/mans-new-best-friend-a-forgotten-russian-experiment-in-fox-domestication/
Our understanding of genetics is in its infancy. A lot of things that we would not think of as being connected quite likely are. So the fact that spitz-type dogs share a certain silhouette and also share a certain clownish personality that is marked by a fondness for people but also a tendency towards independence and stubbornness is quite possibly not coincidence. Try to cross in a different tail set and you may end up with a marked change in personality. Unless there is some proof that a curly tail makes a dog's life unacceptably compromised, there is really no reason to rush out and make that change.
And an interesting case of something we tend to think of as aesthetic (the preference of some people for flat-faced dogs) that is actually a difference in function (different eye types leading to different behavior).
ReplyDeletehttp://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s953902.htm
We didn't know about the different eye types til recently, but it's apparently no coincidence that many lap dogs from different parts of the world were intentionally bred with shorter faces.
Common sense that if you flatten an animals face its visual world is going to change and as the eye develops I suspect because the eyes are flatter on the face like humans this will encourage certain eye cells to be more developed and others to not. This really is not such a break through, as we know already in species that how the eye is angled on the face reflects the seeing quality of the eye, basically the development of types of eye cells. So seeing this in flat faced breeds is no surprise and shows how far breeding is taking them away from being a canine, do you want a dog that can watch telly all day or a dog that can fetch ?
ReplyDeleteI love Mastini. Their character, charm, loyalty and yes even the slobber. I've rescued, fostered, rehomed and owned loads of them.
ReplyDeleteIt's because of this love and a wish for mercy that I pray the breed is de-classified by the KC and dies out. Soon.
My dogs hackles warn me instantly if there is a snake about, they come up in a beutifull stiff erect ridge causing me to be alarmed. He can smell better than I can so one atom of snake and up they go.
ReplyDeleteNormaly he is a very short coated very smooth haired JRT type you wouldn't even know he had hackles. Its like magic and I imagine it feels good when they are raised as he becomes twice the size, well almost as he is quite short. Those hackles are one of the most lovely things about a dog. They should not be bred away its as much part of dog as its nose or eyes are oooops yes those have vanished too in some breads.
Im just surpised dog breeders haven't exaggerated hackles.
Imagine huge sword fish like fins of hackles that open and close like those on a beta Siamese fighting fish. "Before history began The Hackle Dog fought lion, it would raise its giant hackles and swot the enemy as it sailed across the nubian desert" (:
OMG! Those photos are sick. Why are people breeding dogs to be like that? What is the deal with the judge and the club? Can't they see what is wrong and cruel?
ReplyDelete