Magnificent! Dogs that are bred for health, temperament and function. Thanks for sharing such a beautiful reminder of what we should be striving for.....
Er, dogs bred fit for purpose and they are definitely that, Kennel Clubs take notice, I'm not saying all dogs have to be of "hound" type to be fit for purpose. But to see dogs who can move freely for a long period of time over rough terrain and so should toy dogs, gundogs, terriers, utilities, pastorals obviously within their size and capability restraints. The basic right to be able to breathe, eat and digest the food without compromise, walk and move freely, see and smell and hear without pain. Is that too much to ask of the Kennel Club to revisit their standards, patrol the show rings, start to make the Assured Breeders worthwhile by visiting and the premises and overseeing the correct procedures - OR SCRAP IT ALL TOGETHER. Once it is scrapped it removes the false "promise" for puppy buyers that the breeder and premises have been vetted and inspected personally by the KC and have met their criteria, because at the moment it seems to me that the "sale of goods act" or misrepresentation legal case could be raised against the KC. And again, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not accusing all dog breeders of being irresponsible and greedy and probably these very same breeders have not gone down the accredited breeders scheme because they know it is a nonsense and misleading.
A nice film, and beautiful Anglo-Français Tricolore hounds! For those of you who wish to support them and similar "chiens d'ordre" (i.e. full-size hunting hounds) please visit the website www.venerie.org, and join up as a supporter. The only way we can hope to develop / maintain fitness for function in our hound breeds, is to support certains hunting practises, like foxhunting in the UK, or "chasse à courre" in France! There are many beautiful hound breeds of all shapes and sizes, all bred for a particular quarry, terrain, or hunting style. Not all of them need to move as fast as the chiens d'ordre though: just think of all those beautiful basset breeds, which were developed because the hunters on foot were better able to keep up with the short-legged hounds or because they originally went to ground after foxes, rabbits and badgers. They are no less able to fulfil their original function (or should be!), but hunt in a much slower mode than their larger relatives. Hunters on foot like this lack of speed, because the game stays put until the very last minute, and can be shot more easily...
You think AR crazy but how many of the hounds above will make double figures in age ? Such a romantic video but so far from the reality of the day to day life of a pack hound. I'm afraid there is no retirement home for working pack hounds and most of these hounds once past running and being able to keeop up with the pack for hunting will be despatched, that normally envolves being shot by the kennel huntsman and a good hound with luck may make 7 years old, an exceptional hound 8 years old. They give there all and what awaits them is not loyalty but lead.
Oh yep just gotta love it.......tis so cruel to hunt for sport but hay fantastic Mr Fox can obliterate 20+ lambs or a coop full of chickens in an instant and guess what? He does it just for sport!!! Yes that's right it's a whole load of fun and pleasure for the fox to kill as much as he can in one fell swoop just because he can....... I have collected many uneaten carcasses after his night of fun and that really ain't nice or funny but who gives a shit about those poor defenceless lamies - oh and it is my view that using dogs is the most efficient way of control, they do ensure the job is complete a fox wounded by a shot but not killed can take days to die in pain (a dog would find it and finish the job) or the lovely alternative of the "wire" but hey I guess the mentality of AR can't be arsed to look at the reality - loved that film though, such Beauty!
.......at least those hounds will have enjoyed their lives doing what they do best as dogs should, we couldn't say that for a pug (for example) now could we, harsh I know but I'm just saying!
I have been around farms since birth and on farms all my working life I have had so far, being over forty years old I have never known a fox to take over 20 + lambs in one hit, it always turns out to be dogs when its on that scale. The farmers and farms I know some are on Exmoor and just sheep farms.If the lambs are healthy and the Mum is, the fox then has to catch the lamb and protect itself against the mother. I have seen how a ewe can up end a collie if she has mind to if it comes to close to her lamb. The chicken coup massacre I have had happen and just secured it better, employed some electric in the fencing and have had no trouble for 20 years with our chicken. I respect that Mr and Mrs Fox are as much part of this planet as I am and if that he/she is an oppurtunistc creature I just don't give the rascal to much oppurtunity. A true hunter, hunts to do a job not a sport.
Sadly it has happened on this farm, only once and many years ago, but only two years ago I caught a fox taking a new born lamb (mother delivering twin) I was barely 5 feet away, thankfully i threw my heavy torch at it and I struck it and was able to save my lamb............btw I suggested that the fox likes sport which indeed he does, here on this farm our idea of sport is who can unroll the round bails the quickest or perhaps time to watch a match on the widescreen, we do embark on a little flock protection when we are not too exhausted!
No they kill because they are predators and are fulfilling a motor pattern sequence that produces a huge dopamiine hit and it makes mit makes 'em feel good. But they are incapable of making moral or ethical judgements. Therefore, they are doing what every living organism with a nervous system is destined to fulfill. They repeat what gets rewarded, whether that is internally or externally reinforced..
So it's not OK for dogs and man to hunt and do what comes naturally to them, but the same rules do not apply to wolves (or lions or any other predator)?
A species such as ours with highly developed frontal lobes and neo crtex means that it is capable for us to develop and understand morals, ethics and also nature. Therefore, it is never OK to hunt as a sport.
Of course foxes kill for fun. They kill because they enjoy it. So do cats, and dogs: some dogs will kill any prey animal the right size, and the more they can get, the better. Hunting is intensely self-rewarding for predators.
It's not a bad thing- of course a dog will like killing rats, or a fox like killing chickens, even when they're not hungry or don't need to, or won't eat the meat afterwards. It uses the right instincts. It's tremendous fun for them.
Whether or not humans should do the same is a separate issue.
come to the USA where hunting with hounds has been all but eliminated by Jems good buddies at the HSUS. They claim that dogs "fight " among themselves while hunting ( really?) and that the "fight' the animals" they are hunting so it is against the law because we do no allow "fighting between animals for sport".. They claim hunter abandon their dogs and treat them poorly. That is dangerous for them to run over rocky ground and through brush. That they are routinely injured and killed and tha the dogs a re 'overbred" and not health tested. That the quarry they chase has no "fair chance". Of course they think hunting is evil in itself. Here are a couple of quotes form Jems good buddy Wayne Pacelle head of the HSUS: "Our goal is to get sport hunting in the same category as cock fighting and dog fighting." Wayne Pacelle, Humane Society of the US (HSUS), formerly of Friends of Animals and Fund for Animals,
"We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United States ... We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped in California. Then we will take it state by state. Wayne Pacelle, Humane Society of the US (HSUS), What use would hunting hounds have if not to hunt? Just another way to end animal use by Jems friends. so watch the film revel in it beauty and know if HSUS/RSPCA has its way is will be nothing but a piece of history in the future
To stalk a deer and to take it with a rifle is far better than running a deer to exhaustion and they invariably run down and end up in water. The hounds invariably get there first and will try to start the process of killing it before the huntsman get there and even if they recall the hounds to be at bay , the adrenalin will still see some that will not come to bay and they will try and kill the deer before the huntsman arrive to despatch it. The deer is to big a quarry to be hunted like this because we now have high powered rifles that can efficiently kill a deer with out putting them through the stress of being hunted like this.Its called progress.
In Winconsin it is legal to hunt Wolves with dogs. Tragic. They have basically legalised dog fighting. A wolf pack will rip apart a dog. Who are these people that deem this acceptable? It's testosterone fuelled buffoonery at it's worst.
Agree with you about the deer, but those were not deer hounds in the video. Other quarry which may not be heading for the table such as the fox can take a different approach which could include using a dog
Disparaging remarks about AR do not belong in this discussion. I personally would love to see the end of hunting with dogs. Dogs do not have to be exploited (yes, they have a short life, yes, they get injured and killed in hunts) in order for us to advocate for health, stamina and responsible breeding.
And Wisconsin reimburses owners (at taxpayer expense) for dogs killed or injured in legal hunts, up to $ 2500.00 USD. A list of the total reimbursed to hunters is available on the state web site, as it is public information. Shall we stay with the issue of pedigreed dogs and keep the personal agendas and misrepresentations out of it ???
Some anonymous coward came on this site yesterday to claim that in the U.S. "hunting with hounds has been all but eliminated by Jems good buddies at the HSUS."
Eh? It has? That's news to me and the mounted hunt I passed yesterday in Maryland.
It’s also news to the Master of Foxhound Association up the road from me in Millwood, Virginia >> www.mfha.org/ Their web site shows mounted fox and coyote hunts all over the U.S., from Georgia to California. See > http://www.mfha.org/hunts-map.html
The fact that hunting with dogs is “all but banned” in the US will also come as news to the three national television shows that feature pig hunting with dogs every week.
It will also be news, no doubt, to my friend John B. who hunts bears in North Carolina with hounds, or Custer who does the same in West Virginia. I have not yet reached out to the folks who hunt bear and lion in Idaho with hounds, or the many folks in and outside of the JRTCA who dig terriers every weekend.
I am sure Terrence and Stephen and my other friends who run rabbits with hound and hawk will be shocked, as will those who use lurchers and staghounds to course coyote and fox all over the west.
The fact that hunting with hounds is almost banned, of course, will be a complete show stopper for the coonhound world. There are, literally, scores of companies that cater to their tracking needs, such as Innotek to Garmin.
The dozens of raccoon hunting, coyote hunting, fox hunting, rabbit hunting, and bear hunting bulletin boards in the U.S. seem to know nothing about this ban on hunting with dogs, and neither do those who hunt pheasant, duck, quail, or squirrel.
Now do STATE laws on game change? Oh sure, all the time. The issue is partly game management and also, in part, sliding ideas on what constitutes fair chase. Is it “fair chase” to hunt bear in the Spring with dogs? Not in my book, but I let this issue get sorted at the state level. True bear hunting does not occur in the Spring, does it?
Of course, while dogs are removed from a hunting scheme in one state, they are entered in another. The state of Wisconsin is now allowing up to six hounds at a time to be used to “track” wolves. Right. I can hardly wait until the first few dogs get eaten, which is what happens all the time now when lion hunters using hounds veture too far into wolf territory. A lion will tree. A pack of wolves will pour steak sauce. Surprise!
You want to know the truth about hunting with dogs in the U.S.? Here it is, plain and simple: It’s legal in every state and always will be. For every critter, all the time, anywhere? Nope. Asshole pretenders tend to have their rights taken away, while legitimate hunters tend to have theirs affirmed. As it should be for the most part.
'And Wisconsin reimburses owners (at taxpayer expense) for dogs killed or injured in legal hunts, up to $ 2500.00 USD. A list of the total reimbursed to hunters is available on the state web site, as it is public information.
Oh, so when your dog gets ripped apart by a wolf you get PAID. Phew! That's OK then! *groans in despair*. Hang on, here's another idea. Why not bother tracking and hunting wolves AT ALL with dogs? Therefore, it saves the tax payers' money and also stops a despicable and inhumane way of 'managing' the wolf population.
It's a barbaric and 19th century testosterone- fuelled idiotic activity. It's simply an excuse for a blood sport.
Nature does not exist for our amusement or thoughtless manipulation and exploitation.
Watching a wolf rip a dog apart will be the reality in these situations. It's unnecessary and cruel. Shame on Wisconsin.
Why leave it hounds? All dogs should be well bred and well behaved. A scent trail can be laid down by a walking man, and he could be trailed by a pack of any (or every breed).
Instead of a show ring picture if a club did it this way:
Announcer: This is the big day we have all been waiting for, and we are down to the finalists. Whichever dog wins this round will be this year's best of breed.
The man who laid down the scent trail has come out of the woods, he's given the thumbs up signal. Oh, the crew is waiting for him to put the lure in his boot.
It's a three mile course, with two double backs, a water bank, and a wood at the end. Cameras cover every step the dogs will take. Yes, the judges will review the tapes before announcing a winner. Dogs will be judged not just on speed, first dog across the finish line is NOT the winner. Dogs get points for how well they work the scent trail. And they loose points for straying, playing, or any negative interaction with the other dogs.
Here they come. What a fine small pack they will make. So much better than when this breed started tracking packs three years ago. Now the handlers each put their dog in the starting box, and step back.
They're off! Look at those pekes go, but do they have the stay power? Which ones will keep their nose to the trail, and which will just follow along?
Hunting doesn't have to be for live game. Dogs can follow a scent track laid down by a person - a sort of staged "track the escaping serial killer before he gets away" event. The man leaves one of his gloves, walks and runs picking up trail markers along the way, drops his other glove, then 'hides' in an old car (dog scratches), or behind a door, leaves in a car, or just sits there like a lost child.
Anything could be thought up to replace show ring events.
Wonderful hounds. You can see the same level of 'fit for purpose' if you watch any pack of hounds working in the UK. Great levels of fitness, stamina and wonderful temperaments.
Beautiful video! I love that that many dogs are all friends, and they live and run together! Notice how none of the hounds are scarred up or have torn up ears? No fights!
Now how many show breeders can run all their dogs at once? How many breeders can just open the door and let the dogs out?
How many breeders raise dogs so uncivilized that each mature dog has to have a separate kennel run? And how many breeders (yes, show breeders too) keep their dogs in shipping crates stacked one atop the other because their breeding stock won't play nice, or actively try to kill each other?
Defects aren't always in the body. Dogs can have many of the same problems and mutations that people can have. Don't breed suffering dogs, but don't breed physically healthy canine psychopaths either.
The ability of a breed to live, without violence, in a pack, is IMO, one of the most important traits for both breeding good pet dogs, and in housing dogs who live happy lives.
Watch the hounds at the start and slow it or even freeze it and you will see many of them have bold patches on them, keep doing that through out the film and you will see that many of them have these bold patches. The patches could be pressure bold spots from lying without much bedding, mange or old scars or a mixture of the three.
I only see one small spot on one dog, it could be anything. Maybe your screen is bigger and better than mine. I watched other videos of these hounds, and they seem very good with each other, and no bald spots which I could see.
By bald spots do you mean the numbers and letters that are made to identify hounds? In some places the hound's number is painted on his side, these look like the hair has been trimmed in the shape or a number or letter. Not a problem for the dog, how else could people remember the names of so many hounds?
No, I mean the bald spots and scars. To see the scars you would have to know the patterning of scarring on dogs but lots of them have scarring on the hip pins and flanks, which you would expect. These dogs are bred with little coat for ease of care, but the down side is it means it does not give them so much protection against injury to the skin. In the Uk we seem to be able to know the hounds without using this method. Although I imagine this was set up for cameras as the hounds are just running as if on exercise and I doubt that this many hounds are used on a days hunting, normally12 couple or a bit more will be used on a days hunting and I imagine this is maybe three packs run together for this shoot. When hounds run or dogs they seldom fight, hounds though will fight more in kennels over the usual food and on the kill especially with smaller quarry fights can break out but don't worry the whips the men have soon put a stop to that, believe me they do use them, hence the term "whipping in." You get caught with the tip of a whip with very little coat like a hound and you soon get in line. Nothing wrong with all of the above just that you all seem to be blinded by the romance of this clip and do not wish to see the reality of pack life for a hound, which is actually quite stressful for them but what would I know I only worked for a master huntsman for 15 years.
Perhaps we have more in common than it might seem? Maybe the romance of the social life of dogs has worn a bit thin for you too?
Most people who love dogs, love dogs because they feel how much dogs love them. People assume that dogs must love each other, and are often disillusioned or shocked to find that their pet dogs would happily kill each other, even though the dogs both love their human family.
But hounds and some of the gun dogs seen less hateful and less violent towards each other than some of the other breeds. "Best" is not the same as "ideal". But dogs are what we make then, and I feel that's modern dog clubs should promote the breeding of modern dogs - either dogs with modern jobs, or dogs bred to live in our crowded world and to be better pets.
15 years of any one activity can leave a person jaded. Yes, I am sure hounds do sometimes spat, but not usually really fight, because if they really fought, a pack of 120 would eventually be a pack 4 scarred dogs.
Ever see a 'team' of sled dogs in their yard? Each dog on its own short chain, because, while they might behave while a person is standing right there, leave them unsupervised together in a yard, and you will come home to a dead dog, and a team which is chewing itself up.
It is much much much easier to care for a pack of dogs that get along together and who come when called, than a group of pet dogs which have to be monitored and controlled, and caged separately when you leave, because they fight.
And many show dogs are being bred without concern for their ability to play nice with each other.
You have seen 15 years of hounds who spat, maybe even fight sometimes, and who need to be controlled some of the time? But have you listened to show breeders who complain how every moment of their life is taken up with their dogs because they can't leave them alone?
Have you listened to many dog breeders who can't afford chain-link kennels or who don't have the space to get a permit to build chain-link kennel? So what do these people do?
Often, they keep their dogs in shipping crates. They let their dogs outside, one at a time, in the morning, and once again in the evening. What kind of life is that for a dog?
Think to complain to a local breed club? If she has 24 dogs, no concrete and chain-link runs, and her dogs can't play nice together, how could she be keeping them?
I'm not jaded as I still work with hounds and have my own little pack of twelve dogs that all run together. I have and my ancestors have always walked with a dog at our side. The point I was origanally trying to make was these dogs do carry scars and marks of the hardship of their lives unlike some hear trying to say, they don't have a scratch on them and are not fighting at all. Do you not realise the film is cut and if any of the hounds as they set off had fallen out, do you think they would keep that in the video ? This footage is very good propaganda for hunting just as AR show you the films of all the bad bits, so both are extreme. Now my Grand father during the second world war was in the Home Guard and he also had another official job during the war, Rabbit Catcher although I think before the war the title might might of been Poacher. Before the war, he would hunt with his younger three brothers but during the war and them over seas in service he made do with taking my Mum and her two brothers to help him hunt. He had ferrets, a couple terrier type dogs and two small fast dogs like small lurchers, all where landraces. When netting for rabbits, the ferrets would go down and Grand father would shout to my Mum if he thought a rabbit was coming her way, if she did not catch hold of it and it slipped the net then the terriers would be the next line of defence and if that failed the two small lurchers would normally catch the stray. That's working dogs and what you see in the above is the elite playing at working dogs, you don't need 120 dogs to hunt, its called showing off.You got good tracking dogs you only need a few couple and take a look at wolf packs, you will find they arn't much bigger than 12 couples or so. My Grand father and his fathers before him, always ran an older dog bringing on a younger dog and not to many, so no need to cull when the older dogs where not so quick off the mark unlike these big packs, where the dog is only as good as its last run. These dogs lived in the home as part of the household, it was a bit raw in my forefathers homes and mine growing up but always warm. Dogs living in such big packs is very stressful for them and not natural, as although most will be related, when the pups are weaned from Mum and sent out to be puppy walked by the time they return to kennel any parent or sibling recognition is lost, so this is not any thing like wild pack dogs or wolves where it is made up of canids that have strong family bonds. I'm not jaded see but I know when a dogs working or a dogs just running. Your point about breeders and crates I totally agree with. Someone a little while ago came to me for a dog but first they had been to see one of the top Show breeders of the dogs I breed and had been horrified to see thirty crates in a row in the persons home and these dogs lived in these crates except for when being let out to toilet. When they asked about the crates, the breeder just said, "Their used to it from birth and don't know any thing else, so their okay ." They where horrified that the breeder seemed to consider as long as the dog was feed, watered and kept clean, that was enough.
If your last paragraph is correct then that breeder should be notified to welfare authorities immediately. Those poor dogs, what a hideous life for them. These people do not love dogs, they love the money generated from those dogs. They should be stopped. Liked a lot of your sound, sensible points, but also some of the points are heart wrenching. I know from the short time I walked racing greyhounds how hard hearted their owners can be. After a few weeks I queried why one particular paddock of hounds were never walked and was told they were waiting for a gamekeeper to come and finish them off - I was horrified, I never went again. So callous and matter of fact, dreadful. Another money over dogs wellbeing and right to a quality of life. Lovely young hounds killed because they didn't run fast enough.
Years ago, I lived near a farming area which had many little wooded spaces among the farms. The farmers made extra money because a hunting club leased the right to hunt on the farmers' land during the time on year when there were no crops in the field - part of the fall to springtime.
As part of the lease, a piece of land there housed two foxhound packs - one of male hounds, and one of female hounds. The hounds were housed in the typical manner, just like how regular people in the south of the US kept their dogs. The hound yards were divided, like the regular gardens, with females on one side, males on the other, and a walkway between the two, so that the males wouldn't get all worked up sniffing and licking females through the chainlink fence, as that would cause fights, as none of the hounds were neutered or spayed.
The difference was that most people kept a few dogs, or a small pack of 6 - 12 dogs, but the foxhound packs were huge. One day, when I didn't have my own dogs with me, I talked to the hound master. They weren't his dogs but belonged to the club. They were hunted only a few times per year but both packs had a turn being released into a feeding area, and then afterward being taken for a long walk every day.
He said that the only fight they had was once when they wanted puppies, he let one female and one male together, and when he put the breeding male back, the jealous other males picked on him, so next time they wanted puppies, he put the breeding pair where the packs could not see them, and then, when it was time to feed them, he fed the breeding pair alone, then let only the female loose in the woods, so that when the female pack ran in the woods, she would already be there. He did the same for the breeding male, and said the male pack was too eager to run in the woods to notice their jealousy.
His other tip was about females who had had a litter, which was a rare event, because they kept the whole litter. Weaned pups were kept in the female pack until one of the male puppies was old enough to try to mount one of the females. Then he simply left all of the male puppies on the woods side of the fence when he put the female pack away.
When the male pack was done eating, they were turned out into the woods, where the male puppies were, and then the male puppies were put away with the male pack with no problem. They ate with the adult males, and had no problem.
The one problem was returning a female with her litter to the female pack. Both times, the other females rushed to great the puppies, and the mother dog fought the pack to keep them away from her puppies. The second time, she needed a few stitches on the thin breast skin, so after that, when the puppies were removed from their mother (later than what is custom for pet dogs), the mother dog was left in a introduction run next to the female pack until her milk went dry, and her puppies and the female pack were bonded. Again, neither the puppies nor the mother, was ever put directly into a pack, instead, they were left in the woods, just prior to the release of the pack, like a lost dog who got home late, and the pack accepted them.
There are many reasons why people house their dogs like prisoners instead of like pets. In the bigger picture, I'd say that the problem is that we have situations where some people have no litters of puppies ever, but other people have over a dozen litters per year. It is like the popular sire problem, but with kennels. Some breeders have more than their fair share of litters, and that over balances their dogs' genes, and the type of dogs they like, as well as forcing too many dogs into one property.
Many years ago, I asked about why none of the show dogs tried to play with each other. Most pet dogs would be over excited walking around that many other dogs. How did they train their dogs to ignore other dogs?
I was told that the show dogs were not trained, but that they were suffering from "kennel syndrome", an emotional shut down from being housed unnaturally in a kennel run (or shipping crate). They become zombie dogs - their 'souls' deadened from the emotional deprivation inflicted upon them. A wide spread problem in all the breeds who try to tear each other up, and are kept in multiple dog households.
What can a person do when they get into showing or breeding dogs, then as the dogs mature, they turn violent towards each other? Over and over, the answer is the same: separate the dogs into one dog per pen.
I was reading about hoarding. It is now believed to be caused by depression, not OCD as was believed. But does the dog hoarder (who sometimes is not a breeder), get depressed and keep too many dogs, or do they keep too many dogs then get depressed?
"Too many dogs" is a huge problem for the dogs, and the family that is keeping too many dogs. IMO, if you are housing your dogs in shipping crates, you have too many dogs.
"Many years ago, I asked about why none of the show dogs tried to play with each other...I was told that the show dogs were not trained, but that they were suffering from "kennel syndrome", an emotional shut down from being housed unnaturally in a kennel run (or shipping crate)."
Er, well, I can't speak about conditions dogs are kept but I train and compete with my dogs in obedience, agility, herding, nosework and tracking and they don't try to play at a dog show or trial because they are accustomed to being around other dogs and working, not because they are suffering from "kennel syndrome." When dogs are socialized and trained to a show/trial environment, they are focused on their job not playing with other dogs. All 3 are sleeping on the couch with me as we speak. And while I don't do conformation, and I agree with many of the issues brought up in this blog, the vast majority of conformation dogs I know are well loved pets who don't live in kennels.
Your dogs sound so lucky to get to sleep on the couch with you and go to events with you. Of course many dogs are loved and are part of their human family. But not all dogs are so lucky, are they?
What surprised me was that it was often the local women who were considered "names" in their breed, people whose names were known and their knowledge and wins respected, who housed their dogs in shipping crates, and who 'explained' to me and others that this is how show dogs were best kept, for example " The dogs like being in a crate, dogs aren't like people, they are den animals, and they are happier in their den" - that from a respected show breeder who also said her puppies were sold as working dogs - and echoed by other people at dog shows.
Where I lived there was no limit on the number of dogs who could be kept in one house - so long as there was no noise complaints. And "over two dozen" (24+), was a common number as to how many dogs a person had. So how does a person keep over 24 dogs quiet?
Outside dogs will bark. But bored in a crate, they may give up, especially if born and raised in a crate.
These dogs don't seem trained, and how would someone with over 24 dogs train them all? They seem to drift along on a leash, pausing when the handler does but never looking around, tail not moving. Some people say that it is a blind collie pose, but many of these are not collies. The dogs just don't seem to notice their environment, not even the other dogs in it. Something is lacking.
The dog which just won the National Dog Show in the US this year is a foxhound. Are you going to cringe if a Neo or Pug wins Crufts? I would. It says something about the judge, and one's club, doesn't it?
It's an AMERICAN Foxhound, which is to say it is not likely to be a working dog. The U.S. has fox and coon hounds running from one end of the country to the other, but the American Foxhound is one of the rarest dogs because it is NOT a true working hound bred and selected for work.
That was a truly inspiring, artistic film clip. Thanks.
On a more practical side, there are videos on you tube showing foxhound packs being fed. One of them which caused me to think was "120 hunting dogs being fed at Cheverny, France" by Nichole Carlson.
Think, 120 not castrated dogs all eating chicken and dog food at once. Don't try this in your garden.
And watch how all the dogs must wait for the rest of the pack to come down the stairs and 'be seated at the table', before any of them can eat.
What would the foxhound master do if one of the hounds repeatedly insisted on fighting? Bet he wouldn't be bred from!
These are DOMESTIC dogs eating, not wolves!
And I though that I was doing good to scatter dog food, like for feeding a flock of chickens, for my dogs!
I'm not so impressed with the human control of the pack, though that's impressive, as I am with the good breeding of the hounds.
After two days at a dog show where a German judge, among other irrelevant comments about working Parson Russell Terriers, told the owners of the dogs in the working class that they did not know how to handle their dogs in a show ring (much to their amusement) it was a joy to watch this film and the magnificent hounds on a draw...made my spine tingle!
I am NOT Dorothea, but I looked at the French site from above. Beautiful photograph, and now I see the difference between foxhounds and staghounds. But in some places "staghound" is more like a Scottish Deerhound.
to anonymous 21:47, you realise the "spots" are shawed markings to help distinguish the hounds of different groups/litters? Among ohter things so the hunter can see who performs well, how else would you do it when there arent just 8 dogs slooowly trotting in a circle?
Unless the dreaded curly-lettershaped mange is going around in french hounds.....
I know that there seems to be letters on some of the hounds but there are also bald markings and old scarring on the hounds as well, which you would expect. Scoptic mange is often seen in pack hounds its a haszard of their work. These hounds in this clip are just on exercise not hunting and I suspect more than would normally be used on a hunt. This is just a show bit for cameras and its okay but when you really see them acually with heads down working its a joy to watch, this is very atmospheric but it is just dogs running not really showing you how they work. I prefer Beagles, the commandos of the hound world. The clipping is a French thing I have not seen hounds in the UK like this. Tatooing of the inside of the ear is done to identify hounds in kennel for its registration etc. Most hubntsman I know can recognise their hounds individually without having to mark them in this way but that's in the Southwest of England.
I watch my two German Shorthaired Pointers running free in the countryside every day and, at 10 years old, they can leap fences and gates, gallop up and down very steep hills in woodland (also leaping ditches, fallen trees, etc). They do occasionally tear themselves on wire/branches and require suturing at the vet, but are muscular, with shiny coats and love to hunt pheasants. I don't know how many pack hounds will still be alive at 10 yrs old, but that is another story..
I like GSPs, and yours sound great. But how would you feel, if after they died, and you went to buy a replacement pup, all the ones being bred, had a bulldog lower jaw, bowed legs, and, except for colour, didn't really seem to be GSPs!
This is what has happened in some other breeds. People try to find a pup like what they had before, but all that is left are show varieties and puppies mostly from show lines.
I live in an area of Florida where hounds and curs are common and a huge variety are found, some specializing in the chase, others in treeing or tracking, some run in packs, others run singly (Walker hounds, Plott hounds, coon hounds, redbones, blue tick, black mouthed cur, catahoula leopard dog, bloodhound, fox hound, etc. etc.). Running of deer is permitted with proper licensing.
A few reflections on hunting with hounds 1. It tends to clean out the countryside to the point where squirrels are the only common wild mammal bigger than mouse size (armadillos have also survived). My neighborhood is predator free to the extent that geese, chicken and domestic rabbits can and do roam freely, uncaged. This has its good features, but it's a sorrow that so many wild creatures have been driven out of the ecosystem. 2. The hounds tend to be wonderful dogs. Not aggressive, sweet tempered. Some of them are noisy. Many of them require good fencing because they will follow their noses. 3. Running game is hard on dogs. They love it, but they do tend to get killed. Owners often keep a pup going because they have lost a lot of dogs. Cars, snakebite, and who knows what else are the main causes of death. 4. Big hunts like that shown are vestiges of rural aristocracy. Although they are beautiful, they are no more accessible to most of us than the great estates with which they are associated. I fear that they leave the land barren of game.
Florida is hardly predator free! It is running thick with fox, coyotes, raccoons, bears, and feral cats to say nothing of alligators. I live and hunt in the middle of hound country in Virginia and Maryland , and I assure you that hounds do not make a dent in predator meso-predator populations. Florida's problem is not hounds, by mange mites, rabies, distemper, and heartworm. All of the rabies in the U.S. came up from Florida, while the tick and flea and mite population is never knocked down and mosquitoes can carry heartworm year round in much of Florida. The critters killing predators are very tiny, and they do not eat food from a bag!
Some anonymous coward came on this site yesterday to claim that in the U.S. "hunting with hounds has been all but eliminated by Jems good buddies at the HSUS."
Eh? It has? That's news to me and the mounted hunt I passed yesterday in Maryland.
It’s also news to the Master of Foxhound Association up the road from me in Millwood, Virginia >> www.mfha.org/ Their web site shows mounted fox and coyote hunts all over the U.S., from Georgia to California. See > http://www.mfha.org/hunts-map.html
The fact that hunting with dogs is “all but banned” in the US will also come as news to the three national television shows that feature pig hunting with dogs every week.
It will also be news, no doubt, to my friend John B. who hunts bears in North Carolina with hounds, or Custer who does the same in West Virginia. I have not yet reached out to the folks who hunt bear and lion in Idaho with hounds, or the many folks in and outside of the JRTCA who dig terriers every weekend.
I am sure Terrence and Stephen and my other friends who run rabbits with hound and hawk will be shocked, as will those who use lurchers and staghounds to course coyote and fox all over the west.
The fact that hunting with hounds is almost banned, of course, will be a complete show stopper for the coonhound world. There are, literally, scores of companies that cater to their tracking needs, such as Innotek to Garmin.
The dozens of raccoon hunting, coyote hunting, fox hunting, rabbit hunting, and bear hunting bulletin boards in the U.S. seem to know nothing about this ban on hunting with dogs, and neither do those who hunt pheasant, duck, quail, or squirrel.
Now do STATE laws on game change? Oh sure, all the time. The issue is partly game management and also, in part, sliding ideas on what constitutes fair chase. Is it “fair chase” to hunt bear in the Spring with dogs? Not in my book, but I let this issue get sorted at the state level. True bear hunting does not occur in the Spring, does it?
Of course, while dogs are removed from a hunting scheme in one state, they are entered in another. The state of Wisconsin is now allowing up to six hounds at a time to be used to “track” wolves. Right. I can hardly wait until the first few dogs get eaten, which is what happens all the time now when lion hunters using hounds veture too far into wolf territory. A lion will tree. A pack of wolves will pour steak sauce. Surprise!
You want to know the truth about hunting with dogs in the U.S.? Here it is, plain and simple: It’s legal in every state and always will be. For every critter, all the time, anywhere? Nope. Asshole pretenders tend to have their rights taken away, while legitimate hunters tend to have theirs affirmed. As it should be for the most part. That's why most REAL hunters actually work very hard to keep the assholes out of the field.
Surely though the film shows dogs enjoying their lives, able to run, breathe, hear, see, and scent ALL AT THE SAME TIME, over a long distance. That is what I thought the purpose of the film was. We know pack hounds are kept in packs to avoid fighting and the philosophy regarding their lives is very different from pet dogs. But in the main the dogs are well kept and respected, not the way we would keep dogs, but so are army, police, greyhounds etc etc. Isn't the point of the film that that the hounds can enjoy their lives but lots of show dogs can't because of the gross exaggerations inflicted upon them. And again, as Jennifer says, it isn't the dog's that have over hunted the area, it's the irresponsible people who have control of those dogs. Dogs in all of their forms are wonderful to have in our lives and we have been privileged, the real question is, will future generations of humans be so lucky? Goodness I hope so.
Magnificent! Dogs that are bred for health, temperament and function. Thanks for sharing such a beautiful reminder of what we should be striving for.....
ReplyDeleteAgree
DeleteEr, dogs bred fit for purpose and they are definitely that, Kennel Clubs take notice, I'm not saying all dogs have to be of "hound" type to be fit for purpose. But to see dogs who can move freely for a long period of time over rough terrain and so should toy dogs, gundogs, terriers, utilities, pastorals obviously within their size and capability restraints. The basic right to be able to breathe, eat and digest the food without compromise, walk and move freely, see and smell and hear without pain. Is that too much to ask of the Kennel Club to revisit their standards, patrol the show rings, start to make the Assured Breeders worthwhile by visiting and the premises and overseeing the correct procedures - OR SCRAP IT ALL TOGETHER. Once it is scrapped it removes the false "promise" for puppy buyers that the breeder and premises have been vetted and inspected personally by the KC and have met their criteria, because at the moment it seems to me that the "sale of goods act" or misrepresentation legal case could be raised against the KC. And again, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not accusing all dog breeders of being irresponsible and greedy and probably these very same breeders have not gone down the accredited breeders scheme because they know it is a nonsense and misleading.
ReplyDeleteThose dogs look in amazing shape, and like you said Jemima, beautifully filmed too.
ReplyDeleteLouise
Now I wait to see a comparison between these dogs and they're show ring cousins.......
ReplyDeleteA nice film, and beautiful Anglo-Français Tricolore hounds! For those of you who wish to support them and similar "chiens d'ordre" (i.e. full-size hunting hounds) please visit the website www.venerie.org, and join up as a supporter. The only way we can hope to develop / maintain fitness for function in our hound breeds, is to support certains hunting practises, like foxhunting in the UK, or "chasse à courre" in France!
ReplyDeleteThere are many beautiful hound breeds of all shapes and sizes, all bred for a particular quarry, terrain, or hunting style. Not all of them need to move as fast as the chiens d'ordre though: just think of all those beautiful basset breeds, which were developed because the hunters on foot were better able to keep up with the short-legged hounds or because they originally went to ground after foxes, rabbits and badgers. They are no less able to fulfil their original function (or should be!), but hunt in a much slower mode than their larger relatives. Hunters on foot like this lack of speed, because the game stays put until the very last minute, and can be shot more easily...
I hope they all get eaten by wolves or something.. Hunting for fun/sport sucks big time.
ReplyDeleteDon't you just love that crazy AR logic.
DeleteAs Dr Spock would say, 'It is not logical.'
DeleteSo, the fact that animals are amoral and it is the human beings who are actually hunting for fun equals dogs must die for being bad?!
You think AR crazy but how many of the hounds above will make double figures in age ?
DeleteSuch a romantic video but so far from the reality of the day to day life of a pack hound.
I'm afraid there is no retirement home for working pack hounds and most of these hounds once past running and being able to keeop up with the pack for hunting will be despatched, that normally envolves being shot by the kennel huntsman and a good hound with luck may make 7 years old, an exceptional hound 8 years old.
They give there all and what awaits them is not loyalty but lead.
Oh yep just gotta love it.......tis so cruel to hunt for sport but hay fantastic Mr Fox can obliterate 20+ lambs or a coop full of chickens in an instant and guess what? He does it just for sport!!! Yes that's right it's a whole load of fun and pleasure for the fox to kill as much as he can in one fell swoop just because he can....... I have collected many uneaten carcasses after his night of fun and that really ain't nice or funny but who gives a shit about those poor defenceless lamies - oh and it is my view that using dogs is the most efficient way of control, they do ensure the job is complete a fox wounded by a shot but not killed can take days to die in pain (a dog would find it and finish the job) or the lovely alternative of the "wire" but hey I guess the mentality of AR can't be arsed to look at the reality - loved that film though, such Beauty!
Delete.......at least those hounds will have enjoyed their lives doing what they do best as dogs should, we couldn't say that for a pug (for example) now could we, harsh I know but I'm just saying!
DeleteAnonymous 21:38 This is a pack of Staghounds not Foxhounds.
DeleteI have been around farms since birth and on farms all my working life I have had so far, being over forty years old I have never known a fox to take over 20 + lambs in one hit, it always turns out to be dogs when its on that scale. The farmers and farms I know some are on Exmoor and just sheep farms.If the lambs are healthy and the Mum is, the fox then has to catch the lamb and protect itself against the mother. I have seen how a ewe can up end a collie if she has mind to if it comes to close to her lamb.
DeleteThe chicken coup massacre I have had happen and just secured it better, employed some electric in the fencing and have had no trouble for 20 years with our chicken. I respect that Mr and Mrs Fox are as much part of this planet as I am and if that he/she is an oppurtunistc creature I just don't give the rascal to much oppurtunity.
A true hunter, hunts to do a job not a sport.
Anon 22.18 I used fox / foxhound as reference to AR, I'm no expert but can't really see the point in using dogs on deer when we have rifles
DeleteSadly it has happened on this farm, only once and many years ago, but only two years ago I caught a fox taking a new born lamb (mother delivering twin) I was barely 5 feet away, thankfully i threw my heavy torch at it and I struck it and was able to save my lamb............btw I suggested that the fox likes sport which indeed he does, here on this farm our idea of sport is who can unroll the round bails the quickest or perhaps time to watch a match on the widescreen, we do embark on a little flock protection when we are not too exhausted!
DeleteFoxes do not kill for fun. It's only humans that kill for fun.
DeleteNo they kill because they are predators and are fulfilling a motor pattern sequence that produces a huge dopamiine hit and it makes mit makes 'em feel good. But they are incapable of making moral or ethical judgements. Therefore, they are doing what every living organism with a nervous system is destined to fulfill. They repeat what gets rewarded, whether that is internally or externally reinforced..
DeleteSo it's not OK for dogs and man to hunt and do what comes naturally to them, but the same rules do not apply to wolves (or lions or any other predator)?
DeleteA species such as ours with highly developed frontal lobes and neo crtex means that it is capable for us to develop and understand morals, ethics and also nature. Therefore, it is never OK to hunt as a sport.
DeleteAnon 11:04-
DeleteOf course foxes kill for fun. They kill because they enjoy it. So do cats, and dogs: some dogs will kill any prey animal the right size, and the more they can get, the better. Hunting is intensely self-rewarding for predators.
It's not a bad thing- of course a dog will like killing rats, or a fox like killing chickens, even when they're not hungry or don't need to, or won't eat the meat afterwards. It uses the right instincts. It's tremendous fun for them.
Whether or not humans should do the same is a separate issue.
come to the USA where hunting with hounds has been all but eliminated by Jems good buddies at the HSUS. They claim that dogs "fight " among themselves while hunting ( really?) and that the "fight' the animals" they are hunting so it is against the law because we do no allow "fighting between animals for sport".. They claim hunter abandon their dogs and treat them poorly. That is dangerous for them to run over rocky ground and through brush. That they are routinely injured and killed and tha the dogs a re 'overbred" and not health tested. That the quarry they chase has no "fair chance". Of course they think hunting is evil in itself.
ReplyDeleteHere are a couple of quotes form Jems good buddy Wayne Pacelle head of the HSUS:
"Our goal is to get sport hunting in the same category as cock fighting and dog fighting." Wayne Pacelle, Humane Society of the US (HSUS), formerly of Friends of Animals and Fund for Animals,
"We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United States ... We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped in California. Then we will take it state by state. Wayne Pacelle, Humane Society of the US (HSUS),
What use would hunting hounds have if not to hunt? Just another way to end animal use by Jems friends. so watch the film revel in it beauty and know if HSUS/RSPCA has its way is will be nothing but a piece of history in the future
To stalk a deer and to take it with a rifle is far better than running a deer to exhaustion and they invariably run down and end up in water. The hounds invariably get there first and will try to start the process of killing it before the huntsman get there and even if they recall the hounds to be at bay , the adrenalin will still see some that will not come to bay and they will try and kill the deer before the huntsman arrive to despatch it.
DeleteThe deer is to big a quarry to be hunted like this because we now have high powered rifles that can efficiently kill a deer with out putting them through the stress of being hunted like this.Its called progress.
In Winconsin it is legal to hunt Wolves with dogs. Tragic. They have basically legalised dog fighting. A wolf pack will rip apart a dog. Who are these people that deem this acceptable? It's testosterone fuelled buffoonery at it's worst.
DeleteAgree with you about the deer, but those were not deer hounds in the video. Other quarry which may not be heading for the table such as the fox can take a different approach which could include using a dog
DeleteThe title says they are Staghounds, stags are male deers.
DeleteDisparaging remarks about AR do not belong in this discussion. I personally would love to see the end of hunting with dogs. Dogs do not have to be exploited (yes, they have a short life, yes, they get injured and killed in hunts) in order for us to advocate for health, stamina and responsible breeding.
DeleteAnd Wisconsin reimburses owners (at taxpayer expense) for dogs killed or injured in legal hunts, up to $ 2500.00 USD. A list of the total reimbursed to hunters is available on the state web site, as it is public information.
DeleteShall we stay with the issue of pedigreed dogs and keep the personal agendas and misrepresentations out of it ???
Some anonymous coward came on this site yesterday to claim that in the U.S. "hunting with hounds has been all but eliminated by Jems good buddies at the HSUS."
DeleteEh? It has? That's news to me and the mounted hunt I passed yesterday in Maryland.
It’s also news to the Master of Foxhound Association up the road from me in Millwood, Virginia >> www.mfha.org/ Their web site shows mounted fox and coyote hunts all over the U.S., from Georgia to California. See > http://www.mfha.org/hunts-map.html
The fact that hunting with dogs is “all but banned” in the US will also come as news to the three national television shows that feature pig hunting with dogs every week.
It will also be news, no doubt, to my friend John B. who hunts bears in North Carolina with hounds, or Custer who does the same in West Virginia.
I have not yet reached out to the folks who hunt bear and lion in Idaho with hounds, or the many folks in and outside of the JRTCA who dig terriers every weekend.
I am sure Terrence and Stephen and my other friends who run rabbits with hound and hawk will be shocked, as will those who use lurchers and staghounds to course coyote and fox all over the west.
The fact that hunting with hounds is almost banned, of course, will be a complete show stopper for the coonhound world. There are, literally, scores of companies that cater to their tracking needs, such as Innotek to Garmin.
The dozens of raccoon hunting, coyote hunting, fox hunting, rabbit hunting, and bear hunting bulletin boards in the U.S. seem to know nothing about this ban on hunting with dogs, and neither do those who hunt pheasant, duck, quail, or squirrel.
Now do STATE laws on game change? Oh sure, all the time. The issue is partly game management and also, in part, sliding ideas on what constitutes fair chase. Is it “fair chase” to hunt bear in the Spring with dogs? Not in my book, but I let this issue get sorted at the state level. True bear hunting does not occur in the Spring, does it?
Of course, while dogs are removed from a hunting scheme in one state, they are entered in another. The state of Wisconsin is now allowing up to six hounds at a time to be used to “track” wolves. Right. I can hardly wait until the first few dogs get eaten, which is what happens all the time now when lion hunters using hounds veture too far into wolf territory. A lion will tree. A pack of wolves will pour steak sauce. Surprise!
You want to know the truth about hunting with dogs in the U.S.? Here it is, plain and simple: It’s legal in every state and always will be. For every critter, all the time, anywhere? Nope. Asshole pretenders tend to have their rights taken away, while legitimate hunters tend to have theirs affirmed. As it should be for the most part.
'And Wisconsin reimburses owners (at taxpayer expense) for dogs killed or injured in legal hunts, up to $ 2500.00 USD. A list of the total reimbursed to hunters is available on the state web site, as it is public information.
DeleteOh, so when your dog gets ripped apart by a wolf you get PAID. Phew! That's OK then! *groans in despair*. Hang on, here's another idea. Why not bother tracking and hunting wolves AT ALL with dogs? Therefore, it saves the tax payers' money and also stops a despicable and inhumane way of 'managing' the wolf population.
It's a barbaric and 19th century testosterone- fuelled idiotic activity. It's simply an excuse for a blood sport.
Nature does not exist for our amusement or thoughtless manipulation and exploitation.
Watching a wolf rip a dog apart will be the reality in these situations. It's unnecessary and cruel. Shame on Wisconsin.
Why leave it hounds? All dogs should be well bred and well behaved. A scent trail can be laid down by a walking man, and he could be trailed by a pack of any (or every breed).
ReplyDeleteInstead of a show ring picture if a club did it this way:
Announcer: This is the big day we have all been waiting for, and we are down to the finalists. Whichever dog wins this round will be this year's best of breed.
The man who laid down the scent trail has come out of the woods, he's given the thumbs up signal. Oh, the crew is waiting for him to put the lure in his boot.
It's a three mile course, with two double backs, a water bank, and a wood at the end. Cameras cover every step the dogs will take. Yes, the judges will review the tapes before announcing a winner. Dogs will be judged not just on speed, first dog across the finish line is NOT the winner. Dogs get points for how well they work the scent trail. And they loose points for straying, playing, or any negative interaction with the other dogs.
Here they come. What a fine small pack they will make. So much better than when this breed started tracking packs three years ago. Now the handlers each put their dog in the starting box, and step back.
They're off! Look at those pekes go, but do they have the stay power? Which ones will keep their nose to the trail, and which will just follow along?
I believe that's an existing sport. It's called tracking.
DeleteIn the UK its called Draghunting and I know of three packs at least in England.
DeleteBut I think tracking is one dog at a time, not a pack. Am I wrong?
DeleteYou're thinking of hound trailling. Very popular in the Lake District.
DeleteHunting doesn't have to be for live game. Dogs can follow a scent track laid down by a person - a sort of staged "track the escaping serial killer before he gets away" event. The man leaves one of his gloves, walks and runs picking up trail markers along the way, drops his other glove, then 'hides' in an old car (dog scratches), or behind a door, leaves in a car, or just sits there like a lost child.
ReplyDeleteAnything could be thought up to replace show ring events.
Reminds me of Braveheart, but with dogs...
ReplyDeleteWonderful hounds. You can see the same level of 'fit for purpose' if you watch any pack of hounds working in the UK. Great levels of fitness, stamina and wonderful temperaments.
ReplyDeleteBeautiful video! I love that that many dogs are all friends, and they live and run together! Notice how none of the hounds are scarred up or have torn up ears? No fights!
ReplyDeleteNow how many show breeders can run all their dogs at once? How many breeders can just open the door and let the dogs out?
How many breeders raise dogs so uncivilized that each mature dog has to have a separate kennel run? And how many breeders (yes, show breeders too) keep their dogs in shipping crates stacked one atop the other because their breeding stock won't play nice, or actively try to kill each other?
Defects aren't always in the body. Dogs can have many of the same problems and mutations that people can have. Don't breed suffering dogs, but don't breed physically healthy canine psychopaths either.
The ability of a breed to live, without violence, in a pack, is IMO, one of the most important traits for both breeding good pet dogs, and in housing dogs who live happy lives.
Watch the hounds at the start and slow it or even freeze it and you will see many of them have bold patches on them, keep doing that through out the film and you will see that many of them have these bold patches. The patches could be pressure bold spots from lying without much bedding, mange or old scars or a mixture of the three.
DeleteI only see one small spot on one dog, it could be anything. Maybe your screen is bigger and better than mine. I watched other videos of these hounds, and they seem very good with each other, and no bald spots which I could see.
DeleteBy bald spots do you mean the numbers and letters that are made to identify hounds? In some places the hound's number is painted on his side, these look like the hair has been trimmed in the shape or a number or letter. Not a problem for the dog, how else could people remember the names of so many hounds?
DeleteNo, I mean the bald spots and scars. To see the scars you would have to know the patterning of scarring on dogs but lots of them have scarring on the hip pins and flanks, which you would expect. These dogs are bred with little coat for ease of care, but the down side is it means it does not give them so much protection against injury to the skin.
DeleteIn the Uk we seem to be able to know the hounds without using this method.
Although I imagine this was set up for cameras as the hounds are just running as if on exercise and I doubt that this many hounds are used on a days hunting, normally12 couple or a bit more will be used on a days hunting and I imagine this is maybe three packs run together for this shoot.
When hounds run or dogs they seldom fight, hounds though will fight more in kennels over the usual food and on the kill especially with smaller quarry fights can break out but don't worry the whips the men have soon put a stop to that, believe me they do use them, hence the term "whipping in." You get caught with the tip of a whip with very little coat like a hound and you soon get in line. Nothing wrong with all of the above just that you all seem to be blinded by the romance of this clip and do not wish to see the reality of pack life for a hound, which is actually quite stressful for them but what would I know I only worked for a master huntsman for 15 years.
Hi Anon 1007,
DeletePerhaps we have more in common than it might seem? Maybe the romance of the social life of dogs has worn a bit thin for you too?
Most people who love dogs, love dogs because they feel how much dogs love them. People assume that dogs must love each other, and are often disillusioned or shocked to find that their pet dogs would happily kill each other, even though the dogs both love their human family.
But hounds and some of the gun dogs seen less hateful and less violent towards each other than some of the other breeds. "Best" is not the same as "ideal". But dogs are what we make then, and I feel that's modern dog clubs should promote the breeding of modern dogs - either dogs with modern jobs, or dogs bred to live in our crowded world and to be better pets.
15 years of any one activity can leave a person jaded. Yes, I am sure hounds do sometimes spat, but not usually really fight, because if they really fought, a pack of 120 would eventually be a pack 4 scarred dogs.
DeleteEver see a 'team' of sled dogs in their yard? Each dog on its own short chain, because, while they might behave while a person is standing right there, leave them unsupervised together in a yard, and you will come home to a dead dog, and a team which is chewing itself up.
It is much much much easier to care for a pack of dogs that get along together and who come when called, than a group of pet dogs which have to be monitored and controlled, and caged separately when you leave, because they fight.
And many show dogs are being bred without concern for their ability to play nice with each other.
You have seen 15 years of hounds who spat, maybe even fight sometimes, and who need to be controlled some of the time? But have you listened to show breeders who complain how every moment of their life is taken up with their dogs because they can't leave them alone?
Have you listened to many dog breeders who can't afford chain-link kennels or who don't have the space to get a permit to build chain-link kennel? So what do these people do?
Often, they keep their dogs in shipping crates. They let their dogs outside, one at a time, in the morning, and once again in the evening. What kind of life is that for a dog?
Think to complain to a local breed club? If she has 24 dogs, no concrete and chain-link runs, and her dogs can't play nice together, how could she be keeping them?
I'm not jaded as I still work with hounds and have my own little pack of twelve dogs that all run together. I have and my ancestors have always walked with a dog at our side.
DeleteThe point I was origanally trying to make was these dogs do carry scars and marks of the hardship of their lives unlike some hear trying to say, they don't have a scratch on them and are not fighting at all. Do you not realise the film is cut and if any of the hounds as they set off had fallen out, do you think they would keep that in the video ? This footage is very good propaganda for hunting just as AR show you the films of all the bad bits, so both are extreme.
Now my Grand father during the second world war was in the Home Guard and he also had another official job during the war, Rabbit Catcher although I think before the war the title might might of been Poacher. Before the war, he would hunt with his younger three brothers but during the war and them over seas in service he made do with taking my Mum and her two brothers to help him hunt. He had ferrets, a couple terrier type dogs and two small fast dogs like small lurchers, all where landraces. When netting for rabbits, the ferrets would go down and Grand father would shout to my Mum if he thought a rabbit was coming her way, if she did not catch hold of it and it slipped the net then the terriers would be the next line of defence and if that failed the two small lurchers would normally catch the stray. That's working dogs and what you see in the above is the elite playing at working dogs, you don't need 120 dogs to hunt, its called showing off.You got good tracking dogs you only need a few couple and take a look at wolf packs, you will find they arn't much bigger than 12 couples or so.
My Grand father and his fathers before him, always ran an older dog bringing on a younger dog and not to many, so no need to cull when the older dogs where not so quick off the mark unlike these big packs, where the dog is only as good as its last run. These dogs lived in the home as part of the household, it was a bit raw in my forefathers homes and mine growing up but always warm. Dogs living in such big packs is very stressful for them and not natural, as although most will be related, when the pups are weaned from Mum and sent out to be puppy walked by the time they return to kennel any parent or sibling recognition is lost, so this is not any thing like wild pack dogs or wolves where it is made up of canids that have strong family bonds.
I'm not jaded see but I know when a dogs working or a dogs just running.
Your point about breeders and crates I totally agree with. Someone a little while ago came to me for a dog but first they had been to see one of the top Show breeders of the dogs I breed and had been horrified to see thirty crates in a row in the persons home and these dogs lived in these crates except for when being let out to toilet. When they asked about the crates, the breeder just said, "Their used to it from birth and don't know any thing else, so their okay ." They where horrified that the breeder seemed to consider as long as the dog was feed, watered and kept clean, that was enough.
If your last paragraph is correct then that breeder should be notified to welfare authorities immediately. Those poor dogs, what a hideous life for them. These people do not love dogs, they love the money generated from those dogs. They should be stopped. Liked a lot of your sound, sensible points, but also some of the points are heart wrenching. I know from the short time I walked racing greyhounds how hard hearted their owners can be. After a few weeks I queried why one particular paddock of hounds were never walked and was told they were waiting for a gamekeeper to come and finish them off - I was horrified, I never went again. So callous and matter of fact, dreadful. Another money over dogs wellbeing and right to a quality of life. Lovely young hounds killed because they didn't run fast enough.
DeleteThank you for the nice reply Anon 1116,
DeleteYears ago, I lived near a farming area which had many little wooded spaces among the farms. The farmers made extra money because a hunting club leased the right to hunt on the farmers' land during the time on year when there were no crops in the field - part of the fall to springtime.
As part of the lease, a piece of land there housed two foxhound packs - one of male hounds, and one of female hounds. The hounds were housed in the typical manner, just like how regular people in the south of the US kept their dogs. The hound yards were divided, like the regular gardens, with females on one side, males on the other, and a walkway between the two, so that the males wouldn't get all worked up sniffing and licking females through the chainlink fence, as that would cause fights, as none of the hounds were neutered or spayed.
The difference was that most people kept a few dogs, or a small pack of 6 - 12 dogs, but the foxhound packs were huge. One day, when I didn't have my own dogs with me, I talked to the hound master. They weren't his dogs but belonged to the club. They were hunted only a few times per year but both packs had a turn being released into a feeding area, and then afterward being taken for a long walk every day.
He said that the only fight they had was once when they wanted puppies, he let one female and one male together, and when he put the breeding male back, the jealous other males picked on him, so next time they wanted puppies, he put the breeding pair where the packs could not see them, and then, when it was time to feed them, he fed the breeding pair alone, then let only the female loose in the woods, so that when the female pack ran in the woods, she would already be there. He did the same for the breeding male, and said the male pack was too eager to run in the woods to notice their jealousy.
His other tip was about females who had had a litter, which was a rare event, because they kept the whole litter. Weaned pups were kept in the female pack until one of the male puppies was old enough to try to mount one of the females. Then he simply left all of the male puppies on the woods side of the fence when he put the female pack away.
When the male pack was done eating, they were turned out into the woods, where the male puppies were, and then the male puppies were put away with the male pack with no problem. They ate with the adult males, and had no problem.
The one problem was returning a female with her litter to the female pack. Both times, the other females rushed to great the puppies, and the mother dog fought the pack to keep them away from her puppies. The second time, she needed a few stitches on the thin breast skin, so after that, when the puppies were removed from their mother (later than what is custom for pet dogs), the mother dog was left in a introduction run next to the female pack until her milk went dry, and her puppies and the female pack were bonded. Again, neither the puppies nor the mother, was ever put directly into a pack, instead, they were left in the woods, just prior to the release of the pack, like a lost dog who got home late, and the pack accepted them.
There are many reasons why people house their dogs like prisoners instead of like pets. In the bigger picture, I'd say that the problem is that we have situations where some people have no litters of puppies ever, but other people have over a dozen litters per year. It is like the popular sire problem, but with kennels. Some breeders have more than their fair share of litters, and that over balances their dogs' genes, and the type of dogs they like, as well as forcing too many dogs into one property.
DeleteMany years ago, I asked about why none of the show dogs tried to play with each other. Most pet dogs would be over excited walking around that many other dogs. How did they train their dogs to ignore other dogs?
I was told that the show dogs were not trained, but that they were suffering from "kennel syndrome", an emotional shut down from being housed unnaturally in a kennel run (or shipping crate). They become zombie dogs - their 'souls' deadened from the emotional deprivation inflicted upon them. A wide spread problem in all the breeds who try to tear each other up, and are kept in multiple dog households.
What can a person do when they get into showing or breeding dogs, then as the dogs mature, they turn violent towards each other? Over and over, the answer is the same: separate the dogs into one dog per pen.
I was reading about hoarding. It is now believed to be caused by depression, not OCD as was believed. But does the dog hoarder (who sometimes is not a breeder), get depressed and keep too many dogs, or do they keep too many dogs then get depressed?
"Too many dogs" is a huge problem for the dogs, and the family that is keeping too many dogs. IMO, if you are housing your dogs in shipping crates, you have too many dogs.
"Many years ago, I asked about why none of the show dogs tried to play with each other...I was told that the show dogs were not trained, but that they were suffering from "kennel syndrome", an emotional shut down from being housed unnaturally in a kennel run (or shipping crate)."
DeleteEr, well, I can't speak about conditions dogs are kept but I train and compete with my dogs in obedience, agility, herding, nosework and tracking and they don't try to play at a dog show or trial because they are accustomed to being around other dogs and working, not because they are suffering from "kennel syndrome." When dogs are socialized and trained to a show/trial environment, they are focused on their job not playing with other dogs. All 3 are sleeping on the couch with me as we speak. And while I don't do conformation, and I agree with many of the issues brought up in this blog, the vast majority of conformation dogs I know are well loved pets who don't live in kennels.
Hi Beth,
DeleteYour dogs sound so lucky to get to sleep on the couch with you and go to events with you. Of course many dogs are loved and are part of their human family. But not all dogs are so lucky, are they?
What surprised me was that it was often the local women who were considered "names" in their breed, people whose names were known and their knowledge and wins respected, who housed their dogs in shipping crates, and who 'explained' to me and others that this is how show dogs were best kept, for example " The dogs like being in a crate, dogs aren't like people, they are den animals, and they are happier in their den" - that from a respected show breeder who also said her puppies were sold as working dogs - and echoed by other people at dog shows.
Where I lived there was no limit on the number of dogs who could be kept in one house - so long as there was no noise complaints. And "over two dozen" (24+), was a common number as to how many dogs a person had. So how does a person keep over 24 dogs quiet?
Outside dogs will bark. But bored in a crate, they may give up, especially if born and raised in a crate.
These dogs don't seem trained, and how would someone with over 24 dogs train them all? They seem to drift along on a leash, pausing when the handler does but never looking around, tail not moving. Some people say that it is a blind collie pose, but many of these are not collies. The dogs just don't seem to notice their environment, not even the other dogs in it. Something is lacking.
The dog which just won the National Dog Show in the US this year is a foxhound. Are you going to cringe if a Neo or Pug wins Crufts? I would. It says something about the judge, and one's club, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteIt's an AMERICAN Foxhound, which is to say it is not likely to be a working dog. The U.S. has fox and coon hounds running from one end of the country to the other, but the American Foxhound is one of the rarest dogs because it is NOT a true working hound bred and selected for work.
DeleteThat was a truly inspiring, artistic film clip. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteOn a more practical side, there are videos on you tube showing foxhound packs being fed. One of them which caused me to think was "120 hunting dogs being fed at Cheverny, France" by Nichole Carlson.
Think, 120 not castrated dogs all eating chicken and dog food at once. Don't try this in your garden.
And watch how all the dogs must wait for the rest of the pack to come down the stairs and 'be seated at the table', before any of them can eat.
What would the foxhound master do if one of the hounds repeatedly insisted on fighting? Bet he wouldn't be bred from!
These are DOMESTIC dogs eating, not wolves!
And I though that I was doing good to scatter dog food, like for feeding a flock of chickens, for my dogs!
I'm not so impressed with the human control of the pack, though that's impressive, as I am with the good breeding of the hounds.
After two days at a dog show where a German judge, among other irrelevant comments about working Parson Russell Terriers, told the owners of the dogs in the working class that they did not know how to handle their dogs in a show ring (much to their amusement) it was a joy to watch this film and the magnificent hounds on a draw...made my spine tingle!
ReplyDeleteHave a look at these pictures of French hounds, Dorothea.. absolutely beautiful:
Deletehttp://www.venerie.org/galerie/chiens_de_v_nerie/3.html
I am NOT Dorothea, but I looked at the French site from above. Beautiful photograph, and now I see the difference between foxhounds and staghounds. But in some places "staghound" is more like a Scottish Deerhound.
ReplyDeleteto anonymous 21:47, you realise the "spots" are shawed markings to help distinguish the hounds of different groups/litters? Among ohter things so the hunter can see who performs well, how else would you do it when there arent just 8 dogs slooowly trotting in a circle?
ReplyDeleteUnless the dreaded curly-lettershaped mange is going around in french hounds.....
I know that there seems to be letters on some of the hounds but there are also bald markings and old scarring on the hounds as well, which you would expect. Scoptic mange is often seen in pack hounds its a haszard of their work.
DeleteThese hounds in this clip are just on exercise not hunting and I suspect more than would normally be used on a hunt. This is just a show bit for cameras and its okay but when you really see them acually with heads down working its a joy to watch, this is very atmospheric but it is just dogs running not really showing you how they work. I prefer Beagles, the commandos of the hound world.
The clipping is a French thing I have not seen hounds in the UK like this. Tatooing of the inside of the ear is done to identify hounds in kennel for its registration etc. Most hubntsman I know can recognise their hounds individually without having to mark them in this way but that's in the Southwest of England.
I watch my two German Shorthaired Pointers running free in the countryside every day and, at 10 years old, they can leap fences and gates, gallop up and down very steep hills in woodland (also leaping ditches, fallen trees, etc). They do occasionally tear themselves on wire/branches and require suturing at the vet, but are muscular, with shiny coats and love to hunt pheasants. I don't know how many pack hounds will still be alive at 10 yrs old, but that is another story..
ReplyDeleteI like GSPs, and yours sound great. But how would you feel, if after they died, and you went to buy a replacement pup, all the ones being bred, had a bulldog lower jaw, bowed legs, and, except for colour, didn't really seem to be GSPs!
DeleteThis is what has happened in some other breeds. People try to find a pup like what they had before, but all that is left are show varieties and puppies mostly from show lines.
Don't let this happen to the GSP!
I live in an area of Florida where hounds and curs are common and a huge variety are found, some specializing in the chase, others in treeing or tracking, some run in packs, others run singly (Walker hounds, Plott hounds, coon hounds, redbones, blue tick, black mouthed cur, catahoula leopard dog, bloodhound, fox hound, etc. etc.). Running of deer is permitted with proper licensing.
ReplyDeleteA few reflections on hunting with hounds
1. It tends to clean out the countryside to the point where squirrels are the only common wild mammal bigger than mouse size (armadillos have also survived). My neighborhood is predator free to the extent that geese, chicken and domestic rabbits can and do roam freely, uncaged. This has its good features, but it's a sorrow that so many wild creatures have been driven out of the ecosystem.
2. The hounds tend to be wonderful dogs. Not aggressive, sweet tempered. Some of them are noisy. Many of them require good fencing because they will follow their noses.
3. Running game is hard on dogs. They love it, but they do tend to get killed. Owners often keep a pup going because they have lost a lot of dogs. Cars, snakebite, and who knows what else are the main causes of death.
4. Big hunts like that shown are vestiges of rural aristocracy. Although they are beautiful, they are no more accessible to most of us than the great estates with which they are associated. I fear that they leave the land barren of game.
Florida is hardly predator free! It is running thick with fox, coyotes, raccoons, bears, and feral cats to say nothing of alligators. I live and hunt in the middle of hound country in Virginia and Maryland , and I assure you that hounds do not make a dent in predator meso-predator populations. Florida's problem is not hounds, by mange mites, rabies, distemper, and heartworm. All of the rabies in the U.S. came up from Florida, while the tick and flea and mite population is never knocked down and mosquitoes can carry heartworm year round in much of Florida. The critters killing predators are very tiny, and they do not eat food from a bag!
DeleteSome anonymous coward came on this site yesterday to claim that in the U.S. "hunting with hounds has been all but eliminated by Jems good buddies at the HSUS."
ReplyDeleteEh? It has? That's news to me and the mounted hunt I passed yesterday in Maryland.
It’s also news to the Master of Foxhound Association up the road from me in Millwood, Virginia >> www.mfha.org/ Their web site shows mounted fox and coyote hunts all over the U.S., from Georgia to California. See > http://www.mfha.org/hunts-map.html
The fact that hunting with dogs is “all but banned” in the US will also come as news to the three national television shows that feature pig hunting with dogs every week.
It will also be news, no doubt, to my friend John B. who hunts bears in North Carolina with hounds, or Custer who does the same in West Virginia.
I have not yet reached out to the folks who hunt bear and lion in Idaho with hounds, or the many folks in and outside of the JRTCA who dig terriers every weekend.
I am sure Terrence and Stephen and my other friends who run rabbits with hound and hawk will be shocked, as will those who use lurchers and staghounds to course coyote and fox all over the west.
The fact that hunting with hounds is almost banned, of course, will be a complete show stopper for the coonhound world. There are, literally, scores of companies that cater to their tracking needs, such as Innotek to Garmin.
The dozens of raccoon hunting, coyote hunting, fox hunting, rabbit hunting, and bear hunting bulletin boards in the U.S. seem to know nothing about this ban on hunting with dogs, and neither do those who hunt pheasant, duck, quail, or squirrel.
Now do STATE laws on game change? Oh sure, all the time. The issue is partly game management and also, in part, sliding ideas on what constitutes fair chase. Is it “fair chase” to hunt bear in the Spring with dogs? Not in my book, but I let this issue get sorted at the state level. True bear hunting does not occur in the Spring, does it?
Of course, while dogs are removed from a hunting scheme in one state, they are entered in another. The state of Wisconsin is now allowing up to six hounds at a time to be used to “track” wolves. Right. I can hardly wait until the first few dogs get eaten, which is what happens all the time now when lion hunters using hounds veture too far into wolf territory. A lion will tree. A pack of wolves will pour steak sauce. Surprise!
You want to know the truth about hunting with dogs in the U.S.? Here it is, plain and simple: It’s legal in every state and always will be. For every critter, all the time, anywhere? Nope. Asshole pretenders tend to have their rights taken away, while legitimate hunters tend to have theirs affirmed. As it should be for the most part. That's why most REAL hunters actually work very hard to keep the assholes out of the field.
Surely though the film shows dogs enjoying their lives, able to run, breathe, hear, see, and scent ALL AT THE SAME TIME, over a long distance. That is what I thought the purpose of the film was. We know pack hounds are kept in packs to avoid fighting and the philosophy regarding their lives is very different from pet dogs. But in the main the dogs are well kept and respected, not the way we would keep dogs, but so are army, police, greyhounds etc etc. Isn't the point of the film that that the hounds can enjoy their lives but lots of show dogs can't because of the gross exaggerations inflicted upon them. And again, as Jennifer says, it isn't the dog's that have over hunted the area, it's the irresponsible people who have control of those dogs. Dogs in all of their forms are wonderful to have in our lives and we have been privileged, the real question is, will future generations of humans be so lucky? Goodness I hope so.
ReplyDeleteThe video seems to have been taken down.
ReplyDelete'sorry this video does not exist'. That'll be that then
ReplyDeleteRestored...
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