We didn't just fuck up dogs.
We tried very hard to persuade the BBC to commission Pedigree Cats Exposed but after much deliberating, they turned it down. "Too like the dogs" was their verdict.
Well exactly.
Haven't quite given up yet.
OMG. That white Persian. He HAS NO FACE. I wonder what his dentition is like...
ReplyDeleteThe lowdown here - and note the strong statement at the end.
Deletehttp://www.icatcare.org/advice-centre/cat-care/getting-cat/persian-longhair
The owner is missing a facial expression too, she looks remarkably like her cat. Please, please do not give up pushing the breeders who deliberately breed exaggerated, born to suffer species - including the walking horses blog highlighted by you and that I found so shocking. All of these people are accountable for gross cruelty in the name of beauty contests - it is unforgivable. So keep pushing them to the fore so that eventually the general public will stop buying their stock and the breeders will have no monetary gain from continuing to produce these sad little mutants. Sickening.
DeleteI agree Georgina,
DeleteThe point which I would add is that while once breeders of useful dogs, or healthy sane pet dogs, could insult dog shows by calling them "beauty contests", now a more accurate term for many breeds is "circus sideshow".
Sideshows were tents off the main attraction where customers paid to see rarities like a calf with 2 heads, or to see/speak with a person with some rare trait like "World's fattest Woman" or "Lady with a Beard" or the famous Siamese Twins (conjoined twins who were from Thailand).
These sideshows provided income and a community for different people, and since the circus travelled, people with odd traits got to see and speak to other people with handicaps, and learn that they were not alone.
It was a sensitive subject for some people - both for pro and con.
But dog shows don't help handicapped people or dogs. The reverse is true. People are breeding dogs with genes that cause the dog to suffer, and which saddles owners with a pet whose veterinarian bills they can not afford, and which the dog can not be cured of.
The main circus show has always been the performance events like trapees, lion trainer, clowns - somebody doing something entertaining. For spectators, the sideshows were mostly just looking at someone/something different.
So what really is a dog show?
The main event is performance, like obedience, agility, sheep herding. The sideshows are where the dogs stand there and people look at them.
But in dog shows it has gotten backward. The main event is gawking at dogs, who stand there, or move around the ring, while they are often judged by "Who Is The Most Extreme"? While the performance events of often off in a corner - or OFF TO THE SIDE (literally, a SIDE show).
Just like a circus only needed one Bearded Lady, and when she quit, a line of bearded ladies (in America, all women are considered "ladies"), could try out for the position of "Bearded Lady", so we have shortfaced cats trying out for becomeing The Best Short-Faced Cat.
So we don't just show dog dwarves, no, we have double dwarves with legs so short their dick and chest bumps the ground.
We don't just have baby-faced dogs anymore, we have show cats and show dogs with faces so flat that the animal can't breath without distress.
Dogs who once had long backs, now have to have super-long backs - which can cause them to become disabled easily - and they are often put to sleep young when they are no longer healthy.
Pugs can't just have big round eyes - show breedes want them to have big bubble eyes.
Not extreme enough now to have a curly tail, gotta have a tail so kinky that ooze grows in it.
And what happens to those puppies who were bred to win at the sideshow, but who weren't extreme enough to win? They grew up to be "not show quality", but not bred to be useful either.
The weird part is that some breeds have been known for harmful mutations which can't be seen. The Dalmation dog became know not just as a polka-dot dog, but as a breed that suffers from urinary stones. And show breeders got angry at the idea of breeding healthy Dalmations.
I don't understand "Why" show people are doing this. But it painful and cruel.
Tell the BBC that it will be called "Man plays God - but not very well".
ReplyDeleteNot only have show breeders harmed many dog and cat breeds, but also goldfish (yes, little bowl fish) who are bred to extremes that are painful to look at (at least for us with empathy and compassion).
Also guppies (a colorful little aquarium fish), fainting goats (no it is NOT funny!), some rabbit breeds are going down that road, the Texas Lornghorn Cattle are bred for an extreme (but I don't guess it is too harmful - just not useful to us or the cattle).
If people could breed 7 legged horses with backs to weak to let a person ride it - people would do it because JUST LOOK AT HIM, HE HAS 7 LEGS!!!!!!!.
I'll see if I can find you a link for fish photos, and I'll comment on my own post here, if I can find it for you.
Horses too... check out the extreme Arabians.
Deletehttp://www.tuttoarabi.it/cover_6_2006.html
I knew someone who used to steward at the Arab shows and one of his jobs was checking the anus and undertail for substances that would enhance the carriage of the tail. The worse thing he ever found being used was battery acid being put just inside the anus and believe me if I put battery acid up your anus if you had a tail you would hold it up amd prance about.
DeleteIn showing of animals it seems to be forgotten that they are living breathing animals like us and they are objectified. I seriously are beginning to wonder if this expression of exaggeration in animals without seemingly any understanding of its harm to the animal they say they love, could be classified under mental illness. To harm something you say you love, to cause it pain for your own ends could be classified under psycopathic tendency. I might sound mental but I'm just rying to figure out why these people do such things to animals in the name of some diluded ideology of perfection and they cannot see the wrong in it.
And guess what... they have breathing problems.
DeleteWe have discussed the human psychology at work here before. It's called cognitive dissonance and it has got out of control. These people are as freakish as the mutant freaks they breed. Pathetic and sad.
DeleteThank you for that Anonymous 12:01. That makes total sense.
DeleteI'm sad to read about the Arabian Horse having this problem too. At one time, the breed was judged by how good it was as a riding animal - not by how typy it looks on a leash.
DeleteHi Jemima,
DeleteIf you do another BBC program, maybe you can show how some people are proud of their weird meaness, like one woman, a friend of a friend, who 'bragged' that her cats had "kitten faces" so tiny that the cats had "no mouth" because "when you open the lips, the throat is right there, there is no mouth".
I don't care how much "experience" she has a cat breeder - I feel she has been doing it WRONG for 40 years! Cats should have mouths.
If you want to look up anus tampering in horses for sale, it was called "ginger under the tail". Ginger refered to the spice, like in gingerbread cookies. The term is very old.
DeleteKinda makes you wonder just how the first person discovered this 'beauty treatment' for horses, doesn't it?
I have a persian cat and he is the most wonderful cat I own, he was not meant to a persian but a ragdoll but as kittens they look similar amd it was not unti he got older i realised he looked nothing like the other two ragdolls I got after him. He has the most funniest loveable personality but I am afraid he is plagued with health complaints , entropian, breathing issues a deformed hip joint and leg and a wry jaw. Looks wise he is not my choice of cat as I prefer a pointy nose but I love him muchly. I am not a supporter of the way you approach these subjects (I show dogs) but I can't deny that some breeds are sudfferbecause of these issues. Incidentally the lady I bought him from had never shown.
ReplyDeleteOh FFS! 'Too like the dogs'. So, not original or entertaining enough? Happy for me to express my disgust as a licence payer with that decision Jemima?
ReplyDeleteOkay, so I said that I would reply to my own comment when I found the link. But my comment hasn't been approved yet, so I am entering it here. The fish photos are at:
ReplyDeletehttp://darlingyouaredoingitwrong.blogspot.com
(that is: "darling you are doing it wrong" without the spaces - and it is "you are" not "your") When you get there, click on the second choice on the left, it reads "fish", then scroll through the guppy photos and you can see the "show goldfish".
darlingyouaredoingitwrong is mostly a collection of posts from others sites (moved with permission), these other sites are listed on the right at darlingyouaredoingitwrong. I found some of them at:
http:dogshikewithus.blogspot.com
(dogs hike with us)
http://mydogdick.blogspot.com
I think I remember that mydogdick also HAD some fish photos, but the site was pared down when it was first abandoned. The links are all on the darling site.
I understand that National Geographic magazine has done a photo-shoot article on show goldfish. Oddly, it is one of the nat geo issues which I missed. But I'm sure they did a good job of it, don't they always?
Replying to my own post: when I was told Nat. Geo had down a goldfish issue, I assumed it was an issue which I had just missed. I looked it up just now, it seems it was april of 1973 - people bred and showed bubble-eyed goldfish then too, and yes that is the breed name "bubble eyed goldfish".
DeleteAnd I found the site that has the original link of the 6 show goldfish photo. The link is on:
http://dogspd.blogspot.com
I like cats, but I hate cat hair floating around the house, covering sofas and my clothes.
ReplyDeleteI had a cat with hair like the one in the third photo here (the fuzzy calico photo). I don't think that Rex coats are cruel or unhealthy, AND THEY DON'T SHED!
And I think hairless cats are okay as an indoor pet. But I don't know that much about hairless cats.
Did you know that there is a breed of cat with legs like a dauchshund? It is an American breed called the Munchkin, and a group of them are said to have gone feral in the state of Louisiana.
There is also the American Curl with curled ears - NOT curly hair on the ears - the ears themselves curl.
The Manx cat breed, and the Scottish Fold cat breed are both said to be harmful dominant genes.
Just as some dog breeders cross dogs with wolves, some cat breeders cross domestic cats with wild cat species. Originally said to have started because some wild cat species are immune to diseases which kill domestic cats.
The Devon Rex is a cat breed that has faulty hair production - and often broken-off whiskers. I expect these cats manage OK without them, but they'd manage a whole heap better with them (although I don't suppose these show-bred cats get to go out much). Cats whiskers are useful to them for many reasons. This breed's faces have got more extreme - in a different way to the brachy Persians. And they all descend for a single cat. http://www.devonrexcats.net/Wisecracks-Devon-Rex-Breeder-New-Zealand-History-Of-The-Devon-Rex-Breed.html
DeleteI favor cat shows where cats do tricks. A better pet cat might be a cat that fits into the modern lifestyle calmly. I don't like the idea of closed breeds - maybe not of breeds at all - too much inbreeding of strange harmful mutations.
DeleteMany domestic breeds of animals are nothing more than someone finding an animal with a mutation, giving the mutation a breed name, and then inbreeding for that mutation.
Curly coated cats COULD be shown, judged by how normal they are to domestic barn type cats - except for the non-shedding coat.
DeleteInstead, people write standards FOR oddness. Funny looking traits AND curly coats, or scrawny cat type with curly coats.
There is no reason to write that a breed SHOULD have faulty whiskers. IMO, the standard should say: "A normal domestic cat with a natural curly coat which doesn't shed. A common fault is malformed whiskers, judges should check for this fault. The greatest faults are those which make the cat unhealthy, pained, or unfit as a pet."
There is no reason for a longer standard (Cats could be judged on Tricks And Temperament).
And I think it would be best if shows had open classes for cats adopted or bought without papers, where cats judged "breed typical" are allowed into the breed.
There is classes at cat shows for regualar moggies.
DeleteDid wild cats really do tricks???
DeleteIn Louisiana, everything is feral.
DeleteAny animal can be trained if you understand animal learning principles. Read Karen Pryor's 'Reaching the Animal's Mind...'
DeleteI love cats/dogs, but...
DeleteI don't like:
* the legs (so, that's why I got a dachshund/munchkin)
* the muzzle (so, that's why I got bulldog/persian)
* the tail (so, that's why I amputated it / got a bobtail)
* the ears (so, that's why I cut it off)
* the shedding (so, that's why I got bald/not-shedding breed)
* sharp claws (so, that's why I made an "soft paws" surgery)
* them running a lot (so, that's why I got mastino/bulldog/basset)
I think you can love dog/cat only if you love the entire dog/cat and you are ready to accept all sides of their nature, with poos and vomit. Otherwise, you are not adopter and they are not your family, youre exploiter.
p.s. note that shedding is natural and necessary process, so any dysfunction of this process can be harmful. "I don't think that Rex coats are cruel or unhealthy, " means I wold like to BELIEVE, that Rex coats are not cruel or unhealthy. You can't know until you make thorough research.
This is over the top, if you go by this, we should only be allowed to keep extremely wolf-like dogs, like Siberian husky (of course only agouti-colored ones, anything else and you "don't love the natural color of the dog"). Forget about ears the flop over the slightest, or a shorter or slightly longer coat, you must love the animal JUST like it is.
DeleteAnd why change the temperament of the wolf? You must love it as it is. Don't remove the hunting instinct, howling or inability to live indoors, you have to love it as a package, don't remove anything.
Seriously...
Some mutations are harmful, but many are not.
A dog is not hurt by having shorter coat or slightly floppy ears, and a cat is not hurt by having a shorter tail or less hair.
The cat breeds that really are in trouble from an ethical viewpoint are the Persian/Exotic, Manx/Cymric, Scottish Fold, and the Munchkin when they are TOO short-legged. They come in several types, you know. Just having a curly coat, shorter tail (like Kurilian and American bobtail, or Pixie-bob), or some other traits that make them look not-exactly-like the African wildcat, doesn't hurt them.
Would the BBC like it any better if you told them that you were expanding on Darwin's original work? He mentioned pigeon mutations didn't he? And you could do pigeons, chickens, cats, goats, any other animals which breeders have ensickened.
ReplyDeleteA whole program to inform the public about how easily domestic animal breeding can go down odd paths. Not so much a program about just cats or dogs, but a program about what happens WHEN PEOPLE PLAY GOD.
You could include plants (OUR FOOD!) which are being changed - to what end?, are we doing better with plants than cats?
A Free Lesson on Understanding Breeding Our Food.
Delete1. Take out a piece of paper. Get a pen or pencil. (or draw this on your screen, if you know how).
2. Divide the paper (or screen) into two large halves about the same size.
3. Get out a coin, and trace around the outside of the coin, so that you make a round circle, of the same size, in the center of BOTH halves of your paper. (On screen: make a small coin sized circle OF THE SAME SIZE, in the center of each half of your screen).
4. Choose EITHER one half of your paper, to draw an egg shape.
Look at the circle in the center of one half of your paper and think of it as the yolk of a raw egg.
Draw the egg shape as if it were the shell around the yolk, with normal proportions for a normal raw hen's egg. The yolk should take up most, but not all, of the space in the shell.
5. Label your drawing:
The outside line is the "Shell".
The inside line is th "Yolk Membrane".
The inter-most blank area is the "Yolk" (you may color it yellow).
Label the blank area between the shell and the yolk as the "White".
6. Look at the other half of your page, and find the circle there. This is to be the New Improved SHOW TYPE Egg.
Label the coin sized circle there "Yolk".
7. Now draw the BIGGEST egg shaped circle which your page (or screen) can hold around this yolk. Try to make this egg-shaped 'shell' circle much like this first one which you made - except much bigger.
8. Label the Show Egg like you did the regular egg, with:
Shell, Yolk Membrane, Yolk, and White.
9. Look at what you have drawn.
See that the bigger egg is only bigger in the shell and white, the yolk and yolk membrane is the same.
Forgive or overlook my spelling errors and see the concept I am trying to show you.
Wheat is like the your your egg drawing.
The shell and membrane you drew are the shell and bran of grains.
The yolk you drew is like the "wheat germ" or the "seed kernel" of grains - this is the seed part with the nutrition. This is the part of the grain which would grow into a new plant - a plant fetus.
The white is like the starch. It is the stored energy. It is like plant fat. It supplys the calories for the seed to grow.
Bigger is not always better. Newer is not always bettter.
If the "yolk" or "germ" of each of your drawings (they are the same size) has 1/5 of the vitamins which you need per day, then you need to eat 5 of either types of grains to get the vitamins which you need.
But with the old type of grain, you might get 80% (80 percent) less calories than with the Show Type grains, because the Show Type has more starch but not more vitamins.
Or to phrase it another way, if you keep eating grains until you get all the vitamins you need, you will be okay eating a good mixture of old type (heirloom) grains.
But if you only have the Show Type grains, either you keep eating the grains until you get the vitamins you need - and get fat because of all the starch you did NOT need. Or you quit eating when you get all the calories you need - and suffer from lack of vitimins, because the ratio of starch to "germ" has ben changed.
Okay, maybe using an egg is not a perfect example, mainly because people who know about nutritian will see the yolk as having fat, but people usually know what a raw egg looks like and they don't know what wild or domestic grains look like.
Would you want to eat a new type of oats, bred from a scientist who also breeds show pugs?
Would you want to buy carrots from a farmer who show type German Shepherd Dogs that wobble and who have inbred hip problems?
Or would you feel better eating food grown by and from seeds produced by people who understand and care about what they are producing?
That is the larger picture of genetics and domestic plant and animal breeding - something were should ALL understand how to spot when something is not going well.
nothing inherently wrong with rex or hairless cats, any more than Xolos or hairless Rat Terriers. the persian extreme body and face type, on the other hand, is disgusting.
ReplyDeleteMy mother had a persian cat when she was a child. When I showed her what persians look now now she was shocked. They look nothing like they did from the 50's and 60's era.
ReplyDeleteThese are just web grabs, but they are actual Persians, just with a less extreme face.
These are just web grabs, however, this is what my mom's persian looked like, she was pure white.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Persian_profile_view_moderate_type.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/SnowyandHazy.jpg
Believe it or not, there are traditional Persian cats... Nothing like the modern.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Persian
The traditional Persians on that page still show a cat that has been changed quite a bit from the original long-haired cat. Note the face structure and they have rounder eyes than a "natural" cat. For the original Persian, check out the Angora cat:
Deletehttp://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-white-angora-cat-image14204000
Angora is beautiful. Do traditional Persians have eye problems with rounder eyes? and also breathing problems?
DeleteYes. Persians get terrible tear stains due to a lack of a muzzle (so the fur on their muzzle gets into their eyes, happens in Shih Tzu's too) and large eyes which cannot be properly moisturized. I'm not sure about breathing problems. I also know they have terrible immune systems, are more susceptible to cat colds and ringworm. The first persian mix cat I ever owned had both a cat cold and ringworm.
DeleteHello Sarah,
DeleteI was not particularly asking about the modern Persian, just asking towards the traditional Persian. Since the breed standard is less exaggerated than the modern, just curious.
Perhaps Jemima the BBC decided you were toxic? I mean just how many OfCom complaints can they have upheld against them? You splattergun approach "fire of lots of lies and inclde a few truths to give it credibility" may work once but even the BBC regretted their descison to go with PDE in the end
ReplyDeleteI expect that's why they commissioned a sequel.
DeleteGlad you're still paying attention, Anon.
yeah they had so much trust in you that they would only pay for 15 minutes of new material and hid it on BBC4, think face saving is what they thought (or the commissioning editor) but their career did suffer from the Ofcom result. As you boast "We didn't just fuck up dogs" by misleading the public, making the Designer doodle dog market produce all type of horrors ( and who the rescues are now having to clear up) in your own words "We didn't just fuck up dogs" and so you want to do the same for cats?! I see Ms Cuddy has even given up the witch hunt, perhaps you should hang you head in shame and so the same.
Delete"misleading the public, making the Designer doodle dog market produce all type of horrors ( and who the rescues are now having to clear up)"
DeleteYes, of course... Jemima is entirely responsible for shelters being bursting at the seams with badly bred crosses. *rolls eyes*
Anonymous 14:17, with a comment like that one must ask, "Who fucked you up ?"
DeleteThe toxicity is in people like Anon 06:34 who oozes the nasty sludge. Assigning blame to Jemima for designer/mixed breeds being produced in greater numbers and also being dumped in same greater numbers is sheer nonsense. Meanwhile the very real consequences of exaggerations to the dogs continues. The status quo is threatened and defended by the likes of Anon 06:34. Toxic? you bet, to the dogs, cats and any other animal we manipulate to meet our own ends.
DeleteAsh flake two yes Ms Harrison is responsible for taking homes that could of gone to rescue dogs in this country by her action of importing rescues from Eire. This does in the long term nothing to stop irresponsible breeding or ownership there, but just shifts the problem elsewhere.
DeleteOh dear Anon 02;20. Clutching at straws aren't we!? Ever heard of the bigger picture?
DeleteThe bird world is even more shocking than the cat or dog world. Rare color mutants are worth big bucks. I once ran into a guy selling love birds at a flea market. He produced birds in batches of thousands hoping to get valuable mutations. And what happens to the mutants? They are bred, then bred to their offspring. The birds that come out homozygous for the mutant gene are then used to found a population. Needless to say, rare mutant color birds commonly have genetic health problems.
ReplyDeleteIs there evidence for this Jennifer?
DeleteHow about a programme addressing the human psychology at work affecting companion animals as a whole? There appears to be a huge problem here affecting a lot of different animals.
DeleteYes, that's the plan...
DeleteI fear the BBC is run by humanities graduates who haven't the background or rigour to understand the bigger picture. Some of the science programmes are completely dumbed down these days.
Delete"yes that is the plan".. really and you say you are NOT an animal rights proponent?/ not a shill; for the HSUS/RSPCA/ASPCA/PETA. I am afraid your slip is showing..
Deleteas for designer dogs.. yes part of that is your fault people crossing all sorts of animals because you ( and people like you) said it was the thing to do to produce "healthier dogs" and not 'mutants"..
at least you can accept thee fact that you have created another different mess.
Anon, I have no problem with breeding dogs, or goldfish or cats or horses or goats or rabbits.. whatever. I have a problem with breeding them in a way that compromises their health and welfare.
DeleteIt's not so very hard to understand, surely?
Jemima
Anonymous 18:17, why can't some of you get your head around the fact that all domestic dogs are designer dogs. All domestic dogs are mated through humans wanting a certain look or function, so by definition are designed.
DeleteWait a minute just found this passage in the Bible, "On the 7th day God rested. God had a cup of tea on the 7th day and then said , "I know what I forgot, pure breed dogs."so just after tea on the 7th day God put in a bit of overtime and created pure breeds of dog and it was so." There we have it undisputable evidence that pure breds where created by God or as I like to call him," KC. "
Anon 18:17 - look at the evidence, hopefully they may only be a small percentage of the actual breeds/species shown. The horrible truth is that they are owned by people who breed and breed and breed for type exaggeration. Consequently they will have the most impact and the widest exposure. People see it, they think it is ok, they buy it. The breeders stock is likely to start it's painful life in the hands of an innocent person/family. The exaggerations are bred for kudos and ultimately money. A fish that can command a price tag of £2000 because it can't swim very well, do you really think that that is ok? A fish bred that can't see, can't float, has no scales, has huge easily burst eyes, is that really acceptable. Cats who cannot hunt, cannot eat, cannot breathe, cats whose intestines are so compromised because of the hair it ingests and the products applied to it's coat. Products used to remove the stains from it's ears, eyes, nose, mouth, rear end. Stains because their eyes don't fit into their heads, ears that are so hairy wax sticks to it, mouths because they cannot chew their food and it spills out. Rear ends because what can be digested causes a messy result. Horses whose necks are so long, they almost look like giraffes, bulging eyes and their forefaces ridiculously angulated by dishing. Do you and your like really think that is acceptable. When one discusses crossbreeding in dogs, it isn't to advocate ridiculous crosses, it is to try and make better the health and welfare of future generations. But like the people who take species and exaggerate them so the people who latched on and mass produce crossbreeds have cashed in. The breeding of crossbreeds should be done only by responsible knowledgeable breeders and in a restrained manner. Really look and listen to your own words, look at the images and reassure yourself that that is what you want to see and are comfortable in the knowledge that they really are healthy and happy, that they are not suffering, not in pain, have unrestrained lives. Because what I see is that these species suffering and that it is cruelty, unwarranted, blind cruelty. Animal welfare bodies would have my full backing in removing the animals from the breeders and the breeders prosecuted for neglect and welfare issues. Do respond, politely, and tell me that I am completely wrong and disillusioned.
DeleteAnon 13:17. I came across evidence years ago when I wrote a paper on the economics of bird breeding, but no longer have access to the bird breeders journals I was using. This link to a discussion of inbreeding on an aviculturalists chat group suggests that close inbreeding is widely practiced for 'special' traits like color mutations.
DeleteHere's a choice quote from a show bird breeder: "After several generations, there will come a time that you must outcross it to another family, because this family is now so closely related that they are showing signs of infertility, lack of physiological vigor, lacking size. It is better to establish to families (pure bred lines) from the start. So when this point comes in you can pair them up without having the trouble of researching the 2nd family’s ancestry. " from http://www.thehouseofpetsvetclinic.com/inbreedinginbirds.htm
http://www.upatsix.com/chats/breeder-chat/topic103070.html
Domestic parrot populations are especially vulnerable to inbreeding because they are truly closed gene pools. Importation of new breeding stock from the wild has been forbidden in most of the developed world.
Dear Georgina.. you are completely wrong and disillusioned.. sadly..
DeleteInteresting how people tend to have 'mutt' felines for the most part at home. Cats are much more private pets, and maybe the one thing that has spared them the widespread fate of dogs is the simple fact that they aren't typically 'shown,' not in the ring and not on the sidewalk (though I love to see eccentrics walking their cats in NYC).
ReplyDeleteCats breeds haven't been developed for a purpose, unlike most dog breeds were in their original form. I'm not aware of cats of different breeds having different temperaments, activity levels, etc. and if you want a functional cat for vermin control, pretty much any cat from a shelter will do. I have 2 feral cats that I got from a rescue. One is orange and stripey and the other is white with darker colours on its head and tail. I have no idea what breed they are. I suspect when most people want a cat, they choose an inexpensive one and might prefer a pretty colour, because they're all pretty much the same beyond that.
DeleteNot a lot to add to this discussion, apart from I have looked on the sites as directed above and am appalled, the deformed Arab Horses, the mutant cats and fish. Whatever is happening to the human condition in it's desire to achieve these deformities is quite serious and frightening. There is definitely a need to publicly highlight the human psychology related thereto and the sooner the better. Just think of the hundreds or more "mutated" animals of any species bred over the next few months to inflate the egos of these people. But to achieve success I would urge you to concentrate on just dog breeders, if you spread the net too wide it will weaken your argument because you will be submerged in hate mail from other species. The person above 14:17, whoever "it" is, is extremely rude and discourteous and I would think a non animal lover or humanitarian to feel so threatened by others concerns for what is happening in the animal world.
ReplyDeleteHi Georgina,
DeleteI found the goldfish breeders really proud of what they are doing to goldfish. And really mad about people who want health happy goldfish.
since time immemorial people have bred animals for certain traits.. talk about "rude" I see "we have not only fucked up dogs" as being very rude accompanied with just pictures and no actual information from any of the owners..
Deleteif it is a "human condition" why let other breeders slip out of the net surely JH can find enough to sell to the BBC.. look how interested they were in the "sequel" to PDE.. todays news.. tomorrows fish wrapper
Anonymous 18:26, slavery has been going since time immemorial, so that makes it okay then ?
DeleteYou mention rude and then are rude in inferring that JH is in it for the money.
It looks like you have drawn some of the might as well bag your head against the brick wall brigade out on this one Jemima.
Anon 18:19 interesting that the freaky goldfish breeders appear to behave exactly like the freaky pedigree dog breeders. I can't work out whether they are stupid, selfish, ignorant or maybe all three? Either they can't or won't review scientific evidence and can't or won't accept advice from knowledgable and rigorous people who have a clear understanding of the problems our companion animals are facing. It is a crisis and these breeders who fail to continually improve their practices are responsible. It's time that authorities to get tough on all responsible.....
DeleteAnon 18:26 Just because people have been doing things for a long time doesn't make it acceptable practice! Have you heard of education? Have you heard of science? Have you ever heard the word progress?
DeleteHere, here anon 20:07
DeleteAverage, regular, blue-collar workers with little education have clearly seen some dog breeds as harmful mutations at first glance.
ReplyDeleteSo why is this so hard for the very people who breed and show animals to understand?
Why have some veterinarians been blind to this?
What does a person need to see what is plainly in front of them?
How do we get breeders to take their blinkers/blinders off?
What are the concepts which keep some breeders from seeing the truth?
I have thought that some of the appeal of some dog and cat breeds is that they have "baby faces" and rounded bodies, so maybe they trigger our feelings of parenthood. But fish?
ReplyDeleteA goldfish can be beautiful without being disabled. So why are so many people breeding goldfish to be obviously disabled? Have you looked at the photos of show type goldfish? It is amazing that some of the fish can stay alive. That's NOT triggering parental love - so what is the appeal?
This is a sideshow, a parade of mutant fish. Why? And how could people let this happen to dogs and cats?
No, not LET it happen, but to MAKE it happen and be proud of it.
Just to be able to breed the freakiest things they can muster, I imagine. I see the same things in pigeons.
DeleteAnd some dog breeds are really freaky without being considered remotely cute - like the Mastino. I don't think their freaky looks have anything to do with evoking parental feelings (as most short-faced breeds do), and they look very un-menacing with their inability to see and even walk properly, so it must just be to create the freakiest dog they can.
Oh God, those Arabian horses: I couldn't follow the link posted but I tracked down some others... They make my flesh creep, because they don't look like horses, but rather as if someone is breeding a horse to look as much like a Disney cartoon as possible
ReplyDeleteGet the torture-breeders to a shrink. Then get someone to explain why the public has followed along with this like a herd of sheep.
ReplyDeleteQuestion EVERYTHING. ALWAYS. We need to get Richard Dawkins on board. He doesn't care about pissing anyone off and he has one of the most brilliant scientific minds currently alive.oh, and he loves companion animals.......
DeleteIt requires a government enquiry. All people and parties involved have to be made accountable for their actions. This is a scandal and a disgrace to humanity. These are our companion animals FFS! There is an empathy chip lacking in a serious umber of people involved. Either that, or they are incapable of rational thought and logical processing. Either way, these people have proven themselves incompetent, irresponsible and cruel.
DeleteIs breeding animals with known deformities an example of psychopathy at work? Are these people psychopaths?
DeleteWould it be possible to sue breeders for causing humans to suffer emotionally due to the suffering wilfully imposed on companion animals by breeding them for known deformities that cause physical and emotional pain?
DeleteI seriously think a challenge could be made at the KC Assured Scheme, at the moment for Cavaliers the only test you have to do is their eyes, everything is recommended and we all know how breeders do whats recommended.
DeletePeople who know the Cavalier know that the biggest killer for Cavaliers is Mitrial Valve Degeneration (MVD) and yet the KC still only recommend checking of hearts and not breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years, so on the Assured Scheme you can aquire a Cavalier bred from a Mum only one years old and the Dad even younger and no heart check and it can be sold under this scheme as assured. I would laugh if it was not so sad for the Cavalier and the unknowing buyer of a Cavalier that thinks this scheme gives them more of a chance of a healthier Cavalier.
They have not yet checked premises of all breeders on this scheme but they infer this in videos and literature and using the word assured I'm wondering if they are falling foul of the trades description act because if all breeders have not been visited and breeders are not doing all tests recommended because if there recommended it really means they should be done, how can that be assured.
Hi Anon 24nov2057,
DeleteI am all for getting Richard Dawkins on board - but we don't even have our own boat yet.
Hi Anon 24nov2104,
DeleteThe government MIGHT be able to appoint people to look into this problem. However, few people in government know any more about breeding pet animals than what any other pet owner randomly selected off the street would know.
Just because people work for the government doesn't mean that they know more about every detail of life.
What the government often does when it has a problem, is to call in the experts. The problem in this case is that many of the 'experts' are so far off base that they seem crazy or blind to reality, or maybe pschopathically cold blooded.
It is up to us.
Hi anon 2142,
DeleteI would hope that if someone sold you a pug or peke puppy who grew to need surgery so that it could breathe normally, and if they had not told you that the surgery would be needed, then you should be able to sue for them hiding the truth and actual costs, both of money, time, and your emotional suffering as you had to work out the truth for yourself as the health of your pet failed slowly in front of you.
But you should get someone whose profession is dealing in legal matters and law suits.
Each breed club, and breeder of torture-bred puppies or kittens should have to give away a disclaimer pamphlet to customers.
Hi anon 2120,
DeleteI don't think psychopaths are that easy to spot. Some dog show people probably are psychopaths, but I think SOME of the people who torture breed animals are like sheep who mindlessly follow a leader, believing everything 'The Authorities' tell them. They are cult followers.
"The Cult of the Dog Show." might be a good title for a program for the BBC. Everyone should understand about cults, and dog shows are a good way to show how regular, even intelligent, well educated people with good professions and a happy home life, can get swept away on a riptide of conformity, floating away into torture-breeding - yet the whole time unable to understand what harm they are causing to the very animals and community which they think they love.
Hi anon 2023,
DeleteI like your reply. You could be 100% correct. But that path sounds like a load of work. Legal battles, arguing with other people. Not many of us are legal pit bulls.
I think you are correct, But that path is one where you would have to fight for your rights, and the rights of others - both other people and dogs.
As you hear so often: "Good Luck With That!"
I would guess that Jemima has a better chance of pushing for change, because the work is doable, and instead of her paying for legal help, she (I assume) gets paid to expose these problems.
But if you can push through a legal battle for consumer's rights, more power to you.
I know that most changes take a whole generation.
If when you are 20 years old, if you work for change, and if this change gets many other people to work for it, then, if people have been working for this change the whole time, when you retire, you can join the push for change again, and maybe see the results before you die.
Change is slow. It is a bit by bit, chipping away at an old wall.
The change might SEEM sudden, like Obama (who is black) becoming President of the USA, but decades of struggle is behind that change.
A major change that sticks almost has to get multiple generations behind it - and that takes decades.
Yes, the change in dog show culture has been going on for decades already, so maybe you can see good change after a few more years - but prepare for a long march, not a short dash.
If you rush change without informing the public, you risk backlash. I want the torture breeders to understand what they are doing, not to find them screaming "How dare the government say we can't breed our noseless, legless dogs!"
But if you can push through with the fraud angle, I will applaud you anyway.
Anon 20:46 Is that an example of brain washing or cognitive dissonance induced by psychopaths?
DeleteHi anon 2121,
DeleteI don't know. Maybe Jemima needs a cult expert to help her figure this out? Maybe someone can recommend books?
Whatever it is, some people have it, and some people don't, a few are inbetween. Education and even I.Q. don't seem a factor.
Some people just glance at the dog show and say "Why are people breeding deformed dogs, and why is the judge rewarding dogs which can't walk right?"
Other people just FALL into the mess! They swallow it hook, line, and sinker!
It is like hypnotism or something. They just swallow the bullshit like it was ice cream.
English Bulldogs need a nose-roll as a gutter for the bull's blood to flow down? Yes, of course, I get it now!
We have to breed them with a nose-roll, a pushed in face, rose-ears, and bowed legs - we must have those traits so they can pin a bull!!!! How can anyone dare say otherwise?
And, of course we NEED to preserve dogs as bull-baiters!
People can get ready to fight over the 'need' to preserve bulldogs, but never glance at old photos AND SEE the changes made, or how deformed their dogs are.
Even if their dog needs oxygen before/after a dog show, it is a prime example of the breed - just remember the peke who won Crufts and needed an ice-pack. It is crazy. It is cult. It is some belief about dogs which suckers people from many countries.
It is the dog side-show cult.
21;15 26 nov - there has been a case in Holland where a puppy owner sued the breeder who claimed that the puppy in question died from an illness that was not known in their bloodline. This was found to be untrue and the owner won. I again state "won" the case when she lost a much loved dog at a young age. She would not call it winning I am sure but she has set a precedence and Sam didn't suffer horribly and die for nothing. Bad, immoral dog breeders, KCs etc who continue to breed sick animals of any variety better beware because there will be a case in the UK soon and it could be one of you. The KCs will be accountable because there is enough evidence on this site alone to condemn for continuing to accept registrations from breeders whose stock is going to breed on and on and on. They know they are aiding and abetting this sick culture, but they are receiving an income from it and until they are hit with a stick for bad behaviour they will continue to do so. Hence my comment about their setting up a supervisor/attendant/whatever to patrol the shows and start eliminating the atrocities and be seen to be publicly engaging with a positive welfare approach to dog breeding. They are in the best place to be able to monitor on a huge scale the health and welfare of dogs. Stop focusing on dog shows and beauty parades and start looking at the dog as a dog, companion, people lover, a creature that would definitely not knowingly subject anyone to pain or suffering or indeed unkindness, despite being exposed to some of our human conditions they do not copy, they continue with their own standards of behaviour. "I will definitely not do to you as you have done to me and mine" attitude. Start canvassing the KCs big time, especially the Chairman, and hopefully it will have a positive outcome, before it is too late for anyone to be effective.
DeleteThe solicitors for the case in Holland are Dier & Recht and the link below is their website, on it is a link to utube and footage of the poor dog having a seizure. I have not watched it, or should I say I can't watch it. To upsetting. I found a forum scathing this judgement and calling it a win for Peta, "how can breeders know every thing the dogs going to get," one said. Absolute ignorance and if you can get to read the case the breeder tryed to deny that her setters have this problem and it transpired that one of the parents has the condition.
Deleteahttp://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddier%2B%2526%2Brecht%26biw%3D1770%26bih%3D883&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=nl&u=http://www.dierenrecht.nl/los-bericht/%3Fno_cache%3D1%26tx_ttnews%255Btt_news%255D%3D931%26cHash%3D699f2a995339609ea050e8b289d3a5&usg=ALkJrhh19Zzft7F5wCef6Kq9uVrnbtRbiQ
Mmm 14:54 there were several unkind, illogical claims that the breeder was being attacked unfairly! Attacked my foot, Sam died horribly, his owner and family were heartbroken. It was a dreadful thing for a breeder to inflict on someone, a fellow dog lover. Thank you for providing the link for others to read.
DeleteThe Path of the Collie Dog and the Pigeon.
ReplyDeleteFirst there was the collie dog. He herded sheep.
But then, some people took a few collie dogs and bred them to be show collies. So then there was 2 types of collies: show and (farm) working.
But then some people took a few of the working collies, entered them in sport herding trails, and inbred the winners. So we had 3 varieties of collie from that one line: show, farm, and trail.
Then a few people took the trail winning (Border) collies and started showing them. So, what do we have now?
1. Original farm type collie lines.
2. Show variety of working type collie lines.
3. Trial (Border) type collies.
4. Show variety of Trial (Border) type collies.
So has something like that happened to the pigeon?
1. The wild dove was domesticated into a pigeon.
2. People bred "show" (fancy) pigeon types.
3. Some of the pigeons flew funny, and so a breed was made of them.
4. Then some people made a show breed of the rollers or tumblers - which is NOT judged on flying, but on how it LOOKS like a fancy flying type.
I'n not a collie or a pigeon breeder, so maybe someone could explain to me why, when there is already a show type, would people make a show type of the working type?
It cold be a great job. I hope very much that you will not give up, and I would participate happily if I know how. Maybe we should bury them with begging letters?)
ReplyDeleteYes Jemima please let us know how we can help apart from not buying any of these animals of course.
ReplyDeleteI too really want to improve our pets and animal's lives. And improve our own lives too, by having healthier, fitter pets and working animals with less useless veterinarian bills for animals whose health can't be fixed because their were bred to suffer.
ReplyDeleteAnd I want to know what type of crazy causes torture-breeding.
One question I have about people who breed this sort of suffering: Is it a case where the breeders all have the same type of quirk? Or is there a variety of quirks which cause people to devote their spare time (or their whole lives) to a hobby (or business) which they never actually see or understand - even though the truth is plain for passer-byes to dicern?
ReplyDeleteGo get 'em, Jemima! It's not just the dogs. As others have said above, humans perpetuate deformed dogs, cats, chickens, lizards, goldfish, etc. and call them "breeds," when many of their changes are not just diverse, but actually pathological. Why can't people just accept animals they way they are? As long as their temperament allows them to live with us, and stay active and healthy, then isn't that what makes them beautiful? Sounds like the BBC is chickening out. But it's their problem, not yours. You're one of the good ones. Don't give up!
ReplyDeleteWith all this unnecessary arguing, I can only see PCE having the same impact as PDE... Were getting nowhere with this...
ReplyDeleteHi Anon 450,
DeleteDon't get discouraged. Think of it as a hobbit's long journey to disolve a ring - a show ring. So that a better culture and life can flourish.
A goup of fellow travelers tromping along, up and down, doing their little best to make a change for the better.
Fighting all types of strange creature's breeders. Working their way to the center of the problem.
But nobody has to get hurt. If it is a war, then it is just a war to get the truth out.
"The same impact as PDE" sounds wonderful to me, since PDE had an enormous impact.
DeleteI hope your all vegetarian as if not you contribute daily to animals needless suffering in abattoirs, infact I hope you are vegans cos look how poor battery chickens suffer. Stiop being holier than thou, no one wants to inflict pain on their pets.
ReplyDeleteEating meat is not an either/or.
DeleteGrass-fed animals raised for meat can lead very pleasant lives with very little stress - nicer lives than a lot of humans. Temple Grandin has pioneered work in making slaughter less stressful for the animals involved.
Battery farmed animals do live awful lives, but no real difference to dogs in puppy farms. Beef from battery farmed cattle fed concentrates and pumped full of antibiotics is nutritiously poorer and has the kind of fatty acid profile that has given beef a bad name. Compared to beef from purely grass-fed cattle which is a source of Omega-3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16500874
The welfare of pets is the problem different to the problem of welfare of livestock. The key problem is the reasonability. The message of PDE is that people harm animals with no reason to do it and even to the prejudice of their own interests because of ignorance.
DeleteAnon 08:04, there is a fundamental difference between a stressful hour's trip to the abattoir and a quick bolt in the brain, and a lifetime's distress. And if 'no-one wants to inflict pain on their pets', then why do people breed (and buy) dogs they know (or should realise) cannot breathe properly, or mate naturally, or whelp normally, or which are so peculiarly constructed that their back ends collapse? If people don't want that to happen, then why does it happen? Are we back to cognitive dissonance again: people really believing that 'I love that look so it can't be cause of the problem'?
ReplyDeleteIn answer to a question above whether new owners can sue, yes they can and yes they should. There has been a precedence set in Holland where the owner was successful. Litigation is going to be huge sooner rather than later. The new owners will seek recompense not for from the money aspect only, but mainly because they will witness a lot of pain, suffering and will be the only ones there when their much loved, probably young, pet dies in their arms. There are lots of issues with humans, I believe that most people keep pets because they want to nurture, love and care for another species. However, as revealed by JH, there are much deeper issues in play the deliberate, calculated, cold, blind intention to malform a creature and be proud of it. I do wonder if the people breeding the mutant animals would be appalled if they learned of children being bred/treated in the same way or would they just be "interested" and wonder how far a deformity could progress before death overtook the experiment? Welfare groups will have to become involved with ultimate reference to the Government because this behaviour cannot continue for the sake of the animals. Regarding vegetarian diets. It is irrelevant to this subject, there is headway in some farming practices, there are many bodies involved.
ReplyDeleteThe only consolation is that out of the hundreds of cats I see out and about, I cannot recall seeing a single flat-faced one. Most cat owners go for the British Shorthair, or moggy, which tends to be a robust and healthy cat, thanks largely due to its lack of inbreeding. This means the number of cats in the country suffering due to poor conformation, is mercifully small when compard to dogs.
ReplyDeleteAdmittedly, most people who get a Persian or similar, will keep the cat indoors, so there could be far more than it appears. However, I only know two people who had Persian cats, both were many years ago, and both had problems with keeping the coat from matting as the cats were allowed outside.
As 25nov904 pointed out, we are discussing life more than death. Compare it to the lives and deaths of 2 people:
ReplyDeleteJoe lives a normal life, but is rushed to hospital and dies soon after arrival there.
John is born with three inherited diseases. Even at birth, he struggles for every breath. After a sickly but not too terrible childhood, John developes back trouble and lives in pain from late childhood onward.
JOHN'S breathing gets worse and worse, as his health spirals down, he gets dripping smelly skin infections, glue ears and hearing trouble, painful red bulging eyes which sometimes slip out of their sockets, and terrible digestive problems and clouds of stinking gas and farts.
His teeth are malformed as is his jaw. He can't chew his food. His teeth get diseased - he is given breath mints to cover up the smell. He hurts to move as arthritis sets into his back. He gets fat.
And he STILL CAN'T BREATHE WITHOUT DISTRESS! Each breath is a struggle. John snores. John remains a nice friendly guy, but he nearly passes out when trying to walk or play with kids.
And, like healthy Joe, like everything that lives, John reaches the end of his life. He is rushed to hospital, but dies soon after reaching there.
There are healthy lives, and there are unhealthy lives. Lets try to make as many lives as possible healthy ones.
Just like so many other domestic "breeds", the Persian Cat started as a pretty longhaired cat. Then it became a show breed, and the original type of Persian Cat had to get a new label.
ReplyDeleteSo the "Angora Cat" looks like the Persian Cat once did.
How long before show breeders turn the Angora Cat into a sideshow type, and yet another name must be found for the original Persian Cat type, and the origianl type Angora Cat too?
If breeders of Arabian Horses turn that breed into a sideshow type, what name will be used for the original type of horse from Arabia?
This type of name shift has happened in Collie dogs and German Shepherd dogs too.
Already the term "desert bred" is used to separate original-type Arabian horses from stylized, dish-faced derivatives.
DeleteSaddlebreds and Quarter Horses are bred for exaggerated show qualities too - long skinny noodle bodies (makes them prone to spine problems) for saddlebreds and straight legs and extreme muscle (linked to a fatal disease!) in quarter horses.
Extreme Saddlebred:
http://www.mypets.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/American-Saddlebred-Horse.jpg
Extreme Quarter Horse:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TTxoNYNzKgE/TsCTjEJF__I/AAAAAAAABKc/IdiFZV1T5TQ/s1600/Shanes%2BLady%2BRomantic.jpg
As Fran said about moggy cats, letting dogs run loose and choose their own mates might work better than dog show breeding.
ReplyDeleteBetter yet, find professions for dogs, so they can be judged by some useful standard.
WHY? Why do people breed dogs to have disformities? And fish and cats too?
ReplyDeleteIs there a reason? Or is it like sitting in a restaurant? One person is there because the chicken is good. Another is there for the salad. Another doesn't really like the food there, but it is close to where he works.
One goes there is the hope of finding a hook-up for the evening. Another hopes to find true love and marriage there. Another is there only because it is close to his home and his heater broke.
Everybody doesn't have to be an Edison (inventor of the light bulb). Most of us only need to know how to flip a light switch, and change a bulb.
ReplyDeleteAren't most of us followers of whatever came before us? Few of us blaze new trails.
I remember a post over on terrierman said that Crufts or dog shows were started by a dog biscuit salesman who didn't own any dogs.
Are thousands of people following the path set by a long dead buscuit salesman? if so, we need a better lead dog.
A group of people could set up a better dog club.
ReplyDeleteIt would be difficult to design a WORSE dog club. We are currently selecting FOR health problems.
So what is stopping people? Apathy? I would be willing to support a club that wants to focus on breeding healthy pets that are temperamentally sound. Small, medium and large? Jemima, what do you think? It seems the sensible way to progress with like indeed people who are focusing on the welfare of the dogs.
DeleteI think we should form a a pet dog society.......focusing on breeding dogs for health and temperament alongside an educational program addressing training based on behavioural understanding. A holistic approach to all things dog. Easier said than done! But you have to start somewhere? The KC has had it's day...
DeleteIt may be better to use the energy to encourage the KC to be much more publicly proactive. Perhaps a petition outlining (with proof) what the concerns are and how they should use the resources procured from dogs for dog betterment. Remove their focus from dog showing which is the area where the exaggerations and consequent health issues have been born. Urge them to encourage a slow down in dog breeding and accept that unless this occurs the dog world as we know it is going to die out. Persuade them that the money spent on research and development into genetics is in reality unnecessary because all that needs to happen is to disqualify and refuse registration of stock from bad breeders. Bad breeders would be easily identified if the KC appointed stewards to patrol the rings and see and hear for themselves some of the conditions in the braccy breeds, crippled GSDs, skin problems in umpteen breeds etc. Once breeders and judges realise that inspection is being undertaken at the "coal face" they will become more responsible. Good breeders with healthy stock have nothing to fear and their involvement with dogs and dog showing remains unchanged. I am sceptical about the KC, but in reality it is the best tool for dogs and best positioned to keep healthy dogs in our lives, mainly for the dogs benefit. It is definitely time we stopped playing God with dogs (and other animals') lives and be more respectful and we need the KC to help us achieve that goal.
DeleteWith respect Georgina, the problems are cultural. People make organisations. There are good organisations and there are flawed organisations, the KC is flawed because the influential people do not want to fully embrace the necessary changes required to focus on welfare. Tell me, how do you change people who don't want to? It's not as if they don't have access to the evidence? One has to be pragmatic and realistic. This is no platform for idealism. People will it become anything just because ou tell them that they have to. Unless governments step in and regulate. It would be better to branch out with a more intelligent and sensible approach fit for the 21st century. We'll still be on this blog in 20 years time banging on about own terrible it all is at this rate....
DeleteAt the basic level the KC isn't a club for dogs and their well being. It's a registration system which has sidelines which have historically encouraged the use of that registration system through other means such as shows. It has no real power to enforce change.
DeleteAnons 21:57 and 23:25 all good arguments and I understand and accept what you say. I am a huge sceptic in relation to the KCs internationally. They have become an old boys network and not one of them will raise their head above the pulpit in case it gets bitten off by one of it's "friends". The irony in the UK KCs case is that the chairman is a vet, a vet who owns dogs and seemingly loves his dogs. I cannot understand how or why he hasn't burst his brain to stop the bad breeding. His vows that I presume he took to become a vet seem to have flown out of his mind and heart. Or perhaps he just became a vet because it paid well, went into dogs because it paid well, took on the chairmanship because it...................? If that is the case thank god he didn't look after my dogs, I bought one of his puppies and thankfully no longer have any need to use the KC's services. If there is to be a productive, intelligent, approach then he would be the person to whom I would direct my concerns, over and over again. The KC was set us a registry but in the 21st century it has become more. If there was a proper audit done and funds redirected more appropriately the KC could become a really powerful tool for the benefit of dogs, purely and simply. Idealistic I am, I know, but it stems from being brought up with dogs, dogs who are great levellers and from whom humanity can learn so much. Government intervention is to be avoided, but it will happen because people cannot restrain themselves and are pretty selfish as a species. Change them by persuasion perhaps not, change them by legislation possible, change them into illegal, hidden activities as backyard breeders sadly easily and the reason - money. Sadly 21:57 you may be right, 20 years ahead is a daunting thought for all sorts of reasons and dogs and their mistreatment (all animals in fact) will be a distant memory because the World is going to become overwhelmed by politics and religion. So we must enjoy what we've got and do the best that we can with the resources we have, and JH is the best resource currently available because of her grit and determination and her indisputable love of dogs and fierceness for their protection.
DeleteHow Does One Change a Cult?
DeleteDoes the dog show sub-culture/cult have to end? What can replace it in the lives of those who live to breed suffering deformed dogs, cat, fish, etc for sideshows?
It is a cult which sucks people into it, without their understanding what they are doing, but mixed into it are leaders, and people who profit from it who know what they are doing, and who will talk about it.
Jemima, i wish you good fortune with your new project.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to see the K.Cs step up. They are in the best position to do so for major change not just in pedigree dogs, but for societies ignorance.
ReplyDeleteChanging the culture means changing the constitution.Its what defines their membership and their culture.
The trick is to show them how it can benefit them, as well as their communities.Because I believe it will, in ways no one seems able to understand.
The rule on not breeding anything out side of their registry is the main culprit, and the cause of other rules that followed, all of which cause membership to reject or attack their environment.
Some one suggested a magazine. I can understand the reason, sounds great in practice but most registered breeders won't support a publication that allows 'outsiders" to also use that publication. They will not support or recognize whats out side of their charter. That alone would see a huge shift in how people breed dogs by bringing together communities and dog breeders, opening honest dialog with most 'dog interest groups" and balance out extreme views.
If that can't be done, then I see only 1 other practical option. To start another registry based on purpose. Not just a pet dog registry, as has been done in Australia. Too many purpose bred dogs don't strictly fit that description. And not too harsh with the regs and rules apart from adhering to local welfare laws.
The idea is not to outdo each other in rules to show responsible- An open dialog between various interest groups in the community should see a more moderate and socialy responsible result on its own. One that is adaptable to evolve with the times and new research and information.
When we can have a community of dog lovers peer pressure and open dialog can bring change thats adaptable and sustainable into the future.
If K.Cs won't change a constitution that has such disasterous effects for dogs in society, I don't see any alternative.
Aussie
Never underestimate the power of stupidity in large groups.
DeleteReflects most Kennel Clubs.....
Yeah Aussie,
DeleteI looked at several dog magazines, and they bang the cult drum. But this blog is like a magazine. And some magazine could start it's own registry,
A big dog registry could be replaced by several smaller ones.
I would love for the KC or the AKC to lead us into a better future,
DeleteBut I am a bit too old to believe in fairytale endings.
I am not sure of most of the supposed factors in this problem. The same problem seems to be affecting many countries and many species of domestic animals.
Since the problems are so obvious, why hasn't the problem already been solved somewhere? Is there one country where dog shows have taken root, where the ruling body has said "No, you can't show side-show type pekes and pugs in any of our rings."?
I read that Germany has made some rulings against torture-breeding. So lets see the new German Shepherd Dog that can move okay and be a useful police dog. Where are rules that limit how long a dachshund's back should be?
Where are performance shows the norm? Where are the registries NOT closed? Where are there no popular sire problem (Sweden? Norway?) Is there anywhere where shows aren't ruining dogs?
21:40 True. And vise versa.
DeleteAussie
21:55, I agree, the show ring culture itself is major part of the problem. But theres nothing realy to off set it.
DeletePerformance shows also seem mostly to be organized by the K.Cs or their affiliates, and still a closed club.to non pedigree dogs. Some events that aren't breed specific will allow cross breeds or non pedigrees, so long as they are not "entire" here in Australia.
Working breeds as well, such as security dogs are feeling the affects too, one way or another.
Some of the traditional working breeds are on the way out or pretty much gone.
Aussie
Yes Aussie 1016,
DeleteThat is how it currently is. The easiest answer that I have thought of is to devise modern professions for dogs.
Hunting is mostly a sport. Guns are getting less and less welcome, and open spaces less empty.
Many places don't allow dogs to be used on deer, or packs of dogs to tresspass, and even where these things are allowed, it is often just for a few weeks of the year - so you have to lock up your hunting dogs the rest of the year. AND again, most dog owners simply don't want to hunt, or don't want to use their dog for hunting.
Yet, if you list the breeds by function, most dog breeds were originally developed for hunting wild animals. As the dog's historical profession goes the way of horse carriages and butter churns, the dogs NEED us to find new work for them.
Another mainly historic use for dogs is sheep. Even in Australia, what percentage of the human population works on a sheep station and needs their own dog to herd sheep? In the US, I would say: well less than 1% of the human population has ever herded sheep.
Dog have been kept as guard dogs, but increasingly this has shown to be a double edged sword, as likely to harm the owners future as that of a thief. But the US is full of poorer areas with mixed type pit bulls kept just to protect a house.
Dogs are often kept as alarm systems. Almost any dog can bark a warning. Two problems about this: What good is a canine alarm system if nobody is home during the day to hear it? and Alarm Dogs often bark so much that nobody listens to them anymore.
And this is one profession which isn't going to the dogs - the electronic alarm system and video cams are taking over this role. And electronics don't set themselves off and chew up a guest or family member. And you don't have to clean up camera poop.
I have found two professions that dogs are welcome in and needed in:
Helping the Handicapped. Guide dogs, hearing dogs, pulling dogs/ cart dogs, dogs which turn lights on/off, fetch things, and dogs which help people navigate cities and subway/bus systems, and to be a travel companion.
And sniffer dogs. Search and Rescue, contraband, airports, drug detection, police work, tracking, bomb threats, and maybe scent matching.
Dear BBC,
ReplyDeleteThe last 20 episodes of MY BIG FAT GYPSY WEDDING were too much like the first 40 episodes.
And this season of Dr. WHO is totally too much like the last 800 episodes.
Since your policy is to not walk the same path twice, please remedy this post haste!
A concerned fan in America
Maybe Jemima should call it, " My Big Fat Purebreed dog, who needs a Doctor."
DeleteI'd love to see PCE. But . . .
ReplyDeleteAt the risk of sounding prudish, I'd say the opening gambit in this post: "We didn't just fuck up dogs." is a bid for rejection. Due to over-use, fuck has lost its shock value, and has become the emphatic of choice for those with limited vocabulary.
Isn't this blog post about cats? Why are people banging on about the KC?
ReplyDeleteSeems pretty obvious to me. The problem is show/competition breeding culture. It's the same whether it is cats, dogs, pigeons, horses, fish and whatnot. The KC is part of that culture.
DeleteHi Mary,
ReplyDeleteIt is a dog blog, so i have commented mostly about dogs, assuming that the other PDE blog readers are dog people, but I have some experience with other show animals including cats.
Like the Toyota commercial said "You asked for it, you got it".
Yes, Persian cats are the Pugs of the cat world - there is a type of Persian Cat called "the peke-faced Persian Cat", so you know what look their breeders are trying for!
But there are problems at the other end of the cat too. A veterinarian told me about Manx Cats.
Manx cats have a lethal dominant gene, which means that they can't breed true because embryos with two Manx tailless genes die before birth. So, all Manx cats are heterozygous for the Manx tail gene (Tt if "T" = the partial dominant tailess gene) .
So two tailless Manx cats breed together yeilds: (per 4 kittens) one dead embryo, one normal kitten with a tail, and two kittens with the co-dominant (partially dominante) Manx gene.
Because the Manx gene is only partially dominant, it has variation of expresion - some Manx kittens who are "Tt" have a tail stub, some have a half length tail, in some the tail looks nearly normal, and some are "rumpies" who have a hollow indent where the tail should be.
Guess which type breeders and judges consider "show quality"?
Right, the most extreme, the kittens with a hollow spot where the tail SHOULD have been.
One extra 'little' problem about the rumpy kittens, the Manx gene tends to delete more than just the tail, but also nerves to the anus and rectum.
The veterinarian told me about people who bring Manx cats in because the poop just falls out of the cat's anus, the cat doesn't feel it dropping out, or if the cat has some feeling in its rectum, it still can't make it to the litter box in time, because the nerves to the rectum don't work.
A Manx Cat breeder told me that the cat sometimes poops while it is sitting on your lap. I don't think it is funny at all! But she said it with a smile. The veterinarian was not so happy. No cure. No treatment. Cat has to be put to sleep, can't be fixed.
I agree with the veterinarian, "Why are people breeding and buying these cats?" Some people are said to go through several Manx cats, taking them to the veterinarian to be put down when the effect of the gene takes anus control and feeling away from the cat!
Why people pay good money for kittens who will lose control and feeling over his/her anus/rectum is beyond my understanding, and I don't want to try to guess.
And you can't blame the start of this one on America! Though Manx cats have been popular in the states.
Reputable Manx breeders do not breed two tailless cats together, because the tailless gene is lethal. They breed a tailless (Rumpy) Queen to a tailed (Longy) Tom. There are several different sorts of tail produced - Rumpy (no tail), Riser (small piece of cartilage), Stumpy (vestigial tail), Stubby (short tail), and Longy (tail of half to normal length). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_%28cat%29
DeleteCat breeders can be just about as bad as dog breeders.
ReplyDeleteLet's talk truthfully about the Scottish Fold Cats.
Firstly, I want to ask: Why can't some people simply accept cats who look like cats? But some people just gotta have a different cat. And along comes a kitten with crumpled ears.
A new breed is born, The Scottish Fold Cat. Cursed Cat? Mutations are usually harmful. The DNA has adapted to the environment over time, and sudden mutations are seldom helpful to the individual who has it.
Yeah, the cat APPEARS to be a normal cat with folded down ears.
But guess what?
Things are not always the way they seem to be.
Seems (according to what a SF cat breeder told me) the truth is that the fold gene does something to the cartiledge. Cats and kittens have cartiledge in places other than their ears.
I spoke to a breeder of domestic shorthairs who bought ONE Scottish Fold Cat kitten (the registry was open at that time to crossbreds). She grew up and had a litter by one of his shorthairs - the point here being that NONE OF THE KITTENS COULD POSSIBLE BE DOUBLED FOR THE GENE. He never let his cats run loose, and Scottish Folds were a brand new breed in the area anyway.
He kept a folded eared kitten from the litter. It and the mother ended up with health troubles. The kitten was badly affected and suffered terribly....was put down.
According to him, the stuff told to him about ONLY the double affecteds being unhealthy was untrue.
Maybe, over many years, breeders could possibly, maybe, breed this gene to a toned down expression, like with double dominant dwarf dogs. But I wouldn't bet any money on it, my guess is that it is another lethal co-dominante with variation of expression.
Even IF IF IF IF IF the gene wasn't harmful, breeding cats with variation of expression of a gene with a leathal dominant yields so many cats that are just plain cats.
Anyone else with experience on this breed? I would be glad to read more. But just like when people breed 2 recessive carriers - 75% of the people can get nice pets, it is the other 25% who get cheated.
$ $
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What PCE program would be complete without the "squitten"? Also known as The Texas Twisty Cat. This is one of the few cat breeds which I never seen, so I wont comment. You can look up the photos and read about it yourselves.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.messybeast.com/twisty.htm
ReplyDeletePeople are not cats, and cats are not people.
ReplyDeleteBlue eye genes in cats seem to be a problem. In some cats it is linked to deafness. In other breeds it is linked to vision problems.
Years ago, a blue eyed cat was found who did not also have any colour dilution. Refered to as "cornflower cats" (presumable after the flower), some hoped the cats would be a new breed.
I had forgotten about them, but I looked them up just now. Wikipedia. Seems some of them had flattened tail tips.
Why this blue eye gene would also affect the tail, I have no idea. Reads like the breed also has some really bad problems.
You have got to find some squitten photos!
,,
O /
(&) /
ddbb
Cornflower Cats are also now know as Ojos Azules (i think I spelled it right) which means "blue eyes" in Spanish. They are a cat breed. wikipedia has a small page on them.
DeleteCats have a designed by nature look. Tampering with that can cause problems for the cats, and the people who buy them.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.karmafarms.com/twisty.htm
ReplyDeleteLook at the seal point bicolour drinking out of glass.
The site says you can't use their photos, but you have got to see what a squitten is.
They say that they don't breed Texas Twisty Cats, but they do have a place which says they have Polydactyl Kittens For Sale.
The genes seem to be related. Double dominants? Variation of expression of the same gene? I don't know.
Their Colonial Spanish Horses look pretty. Look how long the manes are!
So when will the Birmingham cat show feature Texas Twisty Cats?
DeleteWhen people can ice skate across Hades?
DeleteOdd, how people can so easily the problems in new mutations but not in breeds which they know.
Since some of you have clearly not looked at the squitten photos, let me tell you about it. They are also called "kangaroo cats" because their front legs are that short, but the cats don't have a kangaroo tail so they really can't move well.
The name "squitten" implies that the cat is half kitten and half squirrel. This is because the cat, not having useful front legs, sits like a squirrel.
IMO, the rednecks who shoot cats are less cruel than some cat show breeders.
We are more accustomed to the noseless show Persian Cat, the ultra scrawny show breeds like "Orientals", the tailless Manx, the crossed eyed and kinked tail Siamese Cat, the Scottish Fold and American Curl, but we see the suffering best the first time we encounter it - after that, people seem to get hardened to the suffering of the cats.
I haven't found any evidence that squitten or twisty cats are being deliberately bred. Loads of adverts for polydactyl cats, unfortunately, which would suggest that they *are* being deliberately bred. Not the worst mutation in the world but nevertheless *why*?
DeleteHi Jemima,
DeleteThere is so much information on the messybeast site that I would feel guilty copying even enough to answer a few questions. Maybe you could ask the author herself?
Instead of trying to use the site index, you can just google messybeast and whatever other term you want to know.
She writes mostly about cats, but also plenty of other animals. I looked at the site again to try to find an answer, but I found so much more than I remember, including the German laws on qualzucht breeding of cats. Their rules seem well thought out, and not too harsh.
Mexico, South America, and parts of the deep south of the US are good places for hairless dogs and maybe cats, Germany is not.
Messybeast mentions "RH or radial hypoplasia" being what twisty cats have, and explains why some polydactyl cats produce twisty kittens.
Get a big mug of coffee, it is very readable, but there are many pages which you can link hop or find by going back to google.
She also mentions an all black cat - even the teeth were black.
Basically, it seems to be like mutations in dogs, one gene makes a merle coat, two copies yield a mostly white dog often with problems in the eyes or ears.
Then people find some merles with only one copy of the gene are partially affected because colour is just the effect we see, other effects can be under the skin.
Experience has taught me that deviations from the norm are usually not something to breed for.
DeleteAnd I found out from PDE about curled tails not always stopping at the tail, the rest of the vertebra can be affected too.
You can't go ss far with cats as you can with dogs in breeding extreme exaggeration, which is a shame. Most of these people ruining dogs left and right would be better off with cats.
ReplyDeleteSigned,
The Redneck Side of Retrieverman, who was brought up hating cats as all good rednecks are.
The Persians and Exotics are obvious, but I can't see the problem with the Devon rex and Sphynx. In fact, the Sphynx should be less of a problem than Chinese, Peruvian and Mexican hairless dogs, as dogs need to go outside in the cold, cats can stay inside.
ReplyDeleteAnd neither the Sphynx, Don Sphynx or Peterbald seem unhealthy. Except that the Don Sphynx has eye issues - being bred for small eyes and wrinkly skin - and the Peterbald has high kitten mortality, being extremely slender AND hairless, so the kittens apparently freeze. (That I think is wrong - if you breed hairless animals, at least give them some fat, like the Sphynx.)
Then Orientals/Siameses, Cornish Rex and many other cats may look freaky, but I can't see that their conformation gives them any more trouble than say a Whippet or Irish water spaniel or Jack Russell terrier (which all look very different from a wolf, but don't suffer their looks).
The Scottish fold is a bit more "interesting", as is the Manx. (Two "rumpy" Manx cats - with no tail whatsoever - will give kitten with spinal deformities. Otherwise, they're fine, and breeding two hairless dogs or two merle dogs will give dead puppies, as a comparison.)
Hi redneck side of retrieverman,
ReplyDeleteIf you kill a sickly stray cat with inherited health problems, you end one cat's life, but if you take the cat in, and give the cat food, water, love, comforts, and many breeding opportunities - then you doom generations of cats to suffer. Ironic huh?
Hi Frida,
ReplyDeleteHairless pets are a topic with both pro and con sides.
The American Hairless Rat Terrier gene is recessive, and doesn't seem to have any negative side effects. However, it might not be as good of a breed choice for people living in Norway or Scotland as it is for people living in Florida, or Louisiana, the state where it was developed. I have long thought that they would be better as hairless beagles or hairless Labrador Retrievers so that plumpness or size would help keep them warm.
The reasons for hairless dogs are: fleas, ticks, and mange mites, as well as allergies and shedding and grooming problems. The southern US often has wild coyotes so infested with mange that they have few hairs left, and their skin is a mess. This happens to wild foxes too.
The most common hairless dogs are those with the dominant hairless gene. These dogs were common from Mexico and parts of South America, in a variety of pre-Columbian cultures. There were a huge variety of types from fat terrier types to greyhound like types.
Since the trait doesn't breed true, some of the puppies had regular coats, but the hairless dogs were preferred, kept inside wrapped in cloth at night. I would guess that freedom from itchy bugs was worth being bald, for both the dogs and their people. They weren't handicapped, but advantaged by their lack of hair.
The Less To Bite You With.
The dominant hairless dog gene does affect the teeth, and that could be a problem as the dog often keeps his puppy teeth for months, but when they finally fall out, only the adult molars come in, so sometimes in older dogs, the tongue hangs out. But, as one woman said "Why would I need to have teeth in a pet dog?"
And it would be nice to breed hairless dogs with dark skin so they don't sunburn.
I struggle to see the above pros as pros when it comes to cats. Or rather, I can accept that a hairless cat might be less susceptible to fleas/ticks, but these cats rarely get out - they are kept as inside cats. And they'd be useless in the Florida sun as they would burn.
DeleteHere's what the Feline Advisory Bureau says - strongly against:
http://www.icatcare.org/advice/cat-breeds/sphynx
As for the dentition issue in hairless dogs... please tell me that you weren't being serious in advocating for a dog with faulty teeth and a tongue that can't stay in the mouth on the grounds that it would be *safer*?
Oh Jemima,
DeleteOf course they are all suppose to be inside cats - and nobody would get a hairless kitten expecting to use a litter box, but getting lazy and uncaring, and let the cat out.
And every pet owner is sane. So nobody would ever toss a hairless cat outside in the winter snow while they took an imprompto weekend to Jamaica because a vacation pleases them, and the cat is a bother.
On the other side of the coin, people often keep pets so loaded with ticks that it is surprising the animal doesn't die.
My neighbor keep a dog which they occasionally treated for ticks but was usually packed with ticks. Don't say to report them, some of the times when they took the dog in for treatment, was at the very place which I would have been reporting her to -so they had an up close look at the dog.
Jemima,
DeleteHairless dogs run loose in Mexico just as many other dogs do there. Some hairless dogs run loose on the beach for hours. It would be nice if they were all dark skin dogs, but they aren't.
I met a white haired American who had a Mexican Hairless mix dog. The dark parts of the dog's skin were fine, but the pale spots were covered with warts.
I asked him about it. He said the dog had been in the sun a lot, on the beach and boating. He said this with as little emotion as he might explain why jeans fade.
Yet, Chinese Crested can be show with pale spots, and American Hairless Terriers are very often white skin dogs with spots.
If I remember correctly, an earlier standard for hairless dogs in Mexico said that white spots had to be small enough that they could be covered by a coin, or maybe covered by a bean? Sorry, I don't recall the exact wording.
It is always a trade off, should negligent owners torture their dogs with bugs or sunburn? In an ideal world ..... but we don 't have an ideal world. But one thing is for sure, hairless pets should not be outside in the cold.
Jemima, I'm not advocating pro or con, just commenting on both sides of the issue. I haven't reached a firm opinion on the effects of hairless pets in all the various types of homes and environments. I've seen things which make me question the value of logic and common sense - like dogs who were neglected but lived better lives than other dogs in a show breeders kennel where everything was neat and clean, and legal.
DeleteThere is a place where well bred, larger, plump, dark skin, indoor hairless pets are good. Other places where hairless pets simply should not be allowed. But where to draw the line?
Perhaps where ticks are so bad that you would say "I'd give my fur coat to get rid of these ticks!" Or "I'd give my whiskers to get rid of these fleas!"
We don't live in a perfect world.
Jemima,
DeleteThe recessive hairless gene in dogs, like in the American Hairless Terrier, doesn't have tooth problems.
The dominant hairless gene in dogs , like in the Chinese Crested, does affect the teeth, but the teeth don't rot or mash against each other (as in some short nosed breeds) but they are often small, juvenile, or just not there.
The big problem here is that SOMETIMES the front teeth are affected and the tongue hangs out. Also, it might be possible that, in little dogs, like the Chinese Crested, they might have trouble chewing.y
And , of course, extreme problems with cold. They are pets which, in some environments, need extra care. They can be abused by neglect easier than most other breeds.
I don't think people would breed them to get lack of teeth - the gene that affects the coat and teeth has far too much variation of expression, and the dog would be older before you could guess what his teeth would end up becoming.
I think the comment was from a woman who adopted a grown hairless dog whose tongue already protruded.
Anon above wrote: 'Perhaps where ticks are so bad that you would say "I'd give my fur coat to get rid of these ticks!" Or "I'd give my whiskers to get rid of these fleas!'
DeleteI can see that there is some nuance here, and perhaps more so when it comes to dogs given that there are hairless dogs running around in some parts of the world. But you never see hairless cats; it's a mutation that evolution has never sought to perpetuate. And not least because cats really use their whiskers and are to some extent handicapped without them. (why I don't like to see the breeds with broken-off or twirly whiskers either). Dogs use their whiskers too, of course (why I have written strongly that exhibitors should not be shaving them off), but to a lesser extent.
Having a look round the other domestic animals that humans have messed around with, I came across these:
http://www.ourskinnypigs.co.uk/myownbaldwinboars.htm
Now these are being bred and sold in the UK, but I was pleased to see that the British Cavy Council has banned them from exhibition: "Both Hairless and so-called ‘Skinny’ cavies may not be shown at any cavy show held in the United Kingdom. Judges should immediately disqualify any such cavies that are presented for exhibition."
One wonders for how much longer though. There was a time when the GCCF here in the UK refused to recognise the Sphynx.
Hi Jemima,
DeleteYes they should have whiskers. I have long wondered why poodle breeders haven't bred in the trait for an open face like in the Irish Water Spaniel or the Afghan Hound - of which have short hair on the face but long hair on the legs.
Closed registry system?
But often trades most be made. Once, when in a very ticky place, a tick latched into my back between my shoulder blades. It hurt! I couldn't reach it to pull it out. I was traveling, and by the time I found the tick, bought the tweezers, and went to get rid of the tick, it was really bothering me like a pinch that won't go away. The tweezers only got part of the tick, and the part left in my back hurt.
I told this to someone who lived there. It seems some parents leave it up to their children to remove their own ticks, so this isn't totally uncommon, and it hurts.
Some places are so loaded with ticks that you have to go there in late summer to understand it. And the lyme disease carrying deer tick is small and numerous like someone sprinkled black pepper on your arm, and they suck on people too.
If I were a talking hairless dog and somebody teased me, I'd remind them that:
TICKS SUCK!!!
IMO, a breed club who cared about their hairless breeds, would have the judges fault lack of pigment in the skin, and require dark skin colours to prevent sunburn and skin damage from the sun.
DeleteOne problem not yet mentioned here is that variation of expression of the gene means that sometimes the balance of co-dominance between the hairless and the regular coat gene, tips toward the coated gene, yielding a hairy hairless puppy.
DeleteThese dogs are not really hairless, they look mangy because the coat is there but sparse enough that you can see the skin. That can be bred away from, but in the show ring, Chinese Crested dogs are awarded for having lush furnishings (loads of long hair on the legs, tail, and mane). So breeders breed to tip the co-dominance towards the coated side.
People who buy a groomed hairy hairless, only to find that their puppy is not naturally hairless, feel cheated. So breeding for show wins means less puppies placed with people who are happy with him.
The opposite of breeding to tip towards the expression of the co-dominant coat gene, is to breed for greater expression of the hairless gene, which yields "baldies" dogs with no hair at all.
DeleteI've seen where a baldy crossed with a short haired dog not of a hairless breed, yielded baldy puppies, so it can be bred for.
Breeding animals with variation of expression of co-dominant genes is complicated and what some clubs ask for yields many offspring who won't fit the show standard.
This is true of many breeds where a person must breed for a heterozygous condition.
Cavies are kept indoors, one shouldn't have fleas or ticks in their house. Oh that's what you said about cats!
DeleteMaybe just allow hairless cats in redneck areas. (Just joking).
Hairlessness is a complicated subject. In Germany it is an easier subject: it is cold there, the cost benefits of hairlessness are overwhelmed by the cold factor.
Okay which is it?
DeleteHairless cats should only be bred in warm places like Mexico or Florida, where their hairlessness will be a benefit to them in making it easier for them to groom themselves, to prevent mange, fleas, and ticks, and so the cat doesn't suffer from the heat as much. (Assuming that only sunburn resistant colours are bred from).
OR:
Hairless cats should only be indoor cats, ideally kept in high-rise apartments, like in New York City or Tokyo, where it is unlikely that the cat would be running loose outside.
Yes, I've seen the skinny pigs (hairless guinea-pigs) before. I find them incredibly ugly, but their owners cannot see the defects. Skinny pigs can only live indoors and need their skin moisturised frequently to prevent it from drying out. It's also prone to injury and fungal infections. I wouldn't be surprised if they were found to have serious health problems related to their hairlessness. I'm surprised gp forums, that are otherwise pressing forward for the welfare of these sweet rodents, are perfectly accepting of hairless pigs.
DeleteHi Frida,
ReplyDeleteI would also rather hairless cats be a big plump breed, with dark skin.
If a hairless cat is crossed with a bred with a second mutation, then the kittens could be suffering from the other mutation. This seems to be common, there is the Bambino cat bred, the Napoleon cat breed, and some other cat breeds which have been bred to have more than one mutation.
Unlike the squashed face of the western show bred Persian Cat, at least the hairless gene and the curly coated Rex genes have some reason behind them, and some benefit to the cat in freedom from fleas and no mouthfuls of hairballs.
From what I have been told, both the fold gene and the Manx gene are often harmful even in the heterogeneous form.
ReplyDeleteThese also seem to be examples of variation of expression of the balance between co-dominant genes.
If ya all still interested in strange tales of lowbrow American breeders from before they were proud of what they did know and what they could really do, and so liked to put on airs and pretend they were fancy people of great wealth and refinement, read on and be entertained.
ReplyDeleteBout a hunred yers ago, some dude from Siam sent a cat with a rare color to America to be sold. Somebodies made it a breed, but it was really just a reglar cat with a funny color which would stay white less the cat got cold.
The cats gots cold feet a lot, and they gots cold tail to, and cold nose and face, so those parts were dark, but the parts what stayed warm stayed white. They were regular cats sep for that.
But dumb people wot got to look fancy couldn't just have a reglar cat, right?
Noooo, they gotta have a fancy fanny cat. So they done started to breed their fancy cats to be purebred which means snooty and fridged. But they needed a hook which is sumthing to catch customers with.
So they bred the cats to have crossed eyes and tails with kinks in em. That makes them real fancy.
They had to tell people how fancy it was to have a cross eyed cat with a kinky tail. But people baleeved them!!! People in America wanted to be fancy so bad, they bought these cats so people coulds see how fancy and refined they were by looken at there fancy cat.
Sum peoples in America didn't care whether they were fancy or not, them had barn cats or alley cats that the people who all wanted to be fancy toll then wear no good, they should buy cross eyed kinky tailed cats.
But the somebodies they said that the cross eyes and kinky tails were no good! They was like Jemima Harrison but they had no internet back them. And guess wot they did? Eat yer hart out, they got the change done. Got it done they did.
No more did there Siamese cats have kinky tales or cross eyes. Wooden ya want that?
But then thar cats wernt fancy no more. Pity the fancy cat owners whooz cats weren't fancy no more becausee they didn't have no kinky tails n cross eyes.
But then they got themselvz a new way to make thar cats fancy, bred em as thin n greyhound like as they could because everyone noz how fancy greyhounds are, they got em at race tracks.
Now they all had fancy cats again, until other people copied them and made more greyhound looken cats. But it was short lived.
People said the blue eyes were just as bad as the cross eyes, and that the cat had crossed eyes because they were trying to compensate for the problem with the thing that made the cat that cold dependent color and made the eyes blue.
Rubbish I say! Them cats would still be fancy even if they didn't have kinky tails, cross eyes, or heat dependent color n blue eyes, and without skinnyness, because they are purebred. And that makes them all refined folks of taste and money.
Aren't you all glad to be British were all your cats are moggies, and you don't half to put up with this weirdness?
Remind me to not compose comments while watching Duck Dynasty.
Anyone know enough about horses to comment on hairless horses?
ReplyDeleteI am a horse breeder, but haven't heard of hairless versions. For real? Ugh!
ReplyDeleteMy only comments with out knowing more is : I can only imagine problems for a horse with out protection from the elements, flies and biting insects, sun burn, perhaps even hoof growth and increased perforation of skin .
To what purpose!?
There are photos of hairless horses on the messybeast.com website. I have no idea what the point might be. I have seen photos of foxhunting horses with their hair clippered short - said to help the horse stay cooler when galloping in the heat.
ReplyDeleteYou are right about the flies. Horses always seem to be bothered by flies. Maybe it is because the manure piles incubate fly eggs?
You guys are fucking morons. FUCKING MORONS. The British cat fancy is fucked up because they DO NOT IMPORT from healthy populations in other parts of the world.
ReplyDeleteThe Persian as known to the Cat Fancier's Association is one of the most genetically diverse of the established breeds. It suffers from comparatively few genetic health problems. It is structurally more sound than ANY brachycephalic canine breed. Your "healthy" big-nosed cat occurs in the SAME LITTERS as your "unhealthy" flat-faced cat. (How do I know? My unhealthy extreme show cat's full littermate has the biggest nose I've seen on a Persian.) You people are malicious and ignorant. I hope EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU fully tests yourself for any hereditary illness and then selects a mate that is also 100% clear before you breed yourselves. If you have ANY faulty genes I hope you DO THE RIGHT THING and have yourselves spayed or neutered. You are a disgrace to humanity, a disgrace to animal lovers, a disgrace to sensible people the world over. I hope you all get hit by a truck full of bricks.
In all animal breeding, there is always selection. Remember that.
ReplyDeleteLet's say farmer Jones has enough pasture for 100 milk cows. Each spring they produce 100 calves, 50 females, and 50 males. Farm Jones sells the male calves soon after they are born.
But farmer Jones retires 10 of his milk cows each year, and he needs to keep 10 female calves to replace them. But which ten should he choose? He chooses the 10 whose mothers give the most milk.
The other 40 get sold to Mr. Vealmaker. That is selection, the farmer CHOOSES which offspring continue the bloodline into the future, and which don't.
That is selection. Remember that.
John Musher is a fur trapper in the north of Canada. Both of his female dogs have a litter of puppies in the spring. This year, that means 15 puppies total. But John only needs to keep 2 replacement puppies this year.
How does John choose which 2 puppies to keep, and which to sell. He let's each of his 2 children choose a favorite to keep, because his little son keeps pleading "Don't sell Choo Choo! Please?" And whenever he goes to look over the litter, his own little daughter grabs the same tan puppy with the big white splash, and runs off, trying to hide the puppy from him so he won't sell it.
That is selection. Remember.
In a litter of show dog puppies, Mrs. Mydogisbetter eyes the litter of her favorite bitch like a lioness looking over a herd of gazelle, trying to figure out which are lamest, worthiest. One, and only that one, will be kept, shown, campaigned, and sire many of the litters in his breed. The others will be sold and never bred.
That's selection, you remember?
Another breeder, Mrs. Marriedaveterinarian, raises litters of imported street dogs which she brought back from their vacation in South America. There is no standard, but Mrs. M has her husband look over the whole litter each week, as she takes down all the health info. At 8 weeks old, they have had eye tests, ear tests, blood tests, temperament tests, training tests, been filmed while playing with children, and their DNA test are back. This Mrs. M uses these test to choose which pups are kept for breeding, and which are not.
That you know, is selection.
Change in the breeding of pets, is trying to change WHICH factors we select for and which factors we select against.
Right now, the situation in some breeds, is like if all the parents in a village said that ONLY those children born with handicaps could ever have any babies. After 100 years of that rule, the situation could become where most of the babies born in that village would be handicapped.
That is what has happened in some purebred animals, and a few of us are trying to save other breeds from spiraling down that unfortunate path. Please don't call us morons, when we are trying to do what it right.
I'm surprised Siamese weren't featured. They've always had incredibly nasty tempers but they also used to look like actual cats, now they've drastically changed the standards to look like living breathing statues or figurines, not actual cats! When I saw that I was disgusted and appalled. I say the BBC needs to be smacked upside the head! I would love to see a Pedigree Cats, Horses, Elephants, etc, exposed as well! The more we know the better! I would have never known about the incredible amount of exaggeration that exists in many animals had I not done the research myself, but many people have no interest in doing such research, and that is why we need people like you, Jemima, to do it for them!
ReplyDeleteBy the way, are you familiar with the Belgian Blue? It is bad enough when pets are bred to be, essentially, infertile, but I was amazed to even see this done in livestock. Angus breeders who have cows with great birthing ease are actually sought after and fetch higher prices, heritage turkey's and broiler chickens (who don't gain weight rapidly and can actually walk) are also becoming particularly popular, so it amazes me that they created a breed that can't even reproduce naturally. How is this even feasible in the agriculture industry? Okay they may be artificially inseminating turkey's, but cows are another story... That is an animal which often weighs over 1,000 lbs. On top of all of this, it seems they just did it for entertainment, as there is no way you can profit off of breeding these monsters for beef, there is too much work involved. Sometimes I really think you can't fix stupid, and humans can be very stupid.
I own an extremely flat faced Exotic shorthair. She was a rescue; it was not a breed I would have chosen. She had belonged to an elderly woman who went into care, and desperatetly didn't want her cat to have to go into a shelter. So we agreed to have her.
ReplyDeleteNot only does she have a very flat face (she is similar to the second pic down in your post) but stenotic nares.
She has constant issues, from snorting and sneezing, to very weepy eyes that, in an ideal world, would need cleaning 3 times a day to keep them clear. She is very lazy, which Im sure is due to her difficulty breathing (though I have to say, she never pants or open mouth breathes) but is incredibly affectionate.
The breed has a gorgeous temperament, for sure, but there is no way they should be bred to look like that. I feel sorry for my cat every single day. It pains me to hear her wheezing. I've taken her to the vet several times to see if there is anything that can be done to make life easier for her, but the vets continually tell me how cute she is, and laugh at her mashed in face, they just don't seem to get my concerns.
However, regarding the sphynx, I have to say that I researched this breed extensively because I do love them. I do rat rescue, and have rescued a number of hairless rats over the years. I do not support breeding hairless rats as they have a lot of associated health issues, poor life span often, prone to kidney failure, eye issues, entropian, some strains are born without a thymus, some have no immune system, skin issues are common, and while rat breeders have tried, it has almost been conclusively proven now that it is not possible to breed this variety to be healthy. It was attempted.
Despite this, one of my oldest lived rats to date was a rescued hairless who made it to over 3, and was pretty healthy all his life. So not all of them are doomed to a short miserable life, but too many were to make continuing breeding of them ethical.
But rescuing the hairless rats did spark a love of hairless animals in me, though NOT at the expense of their health and welfare. I am happy to rescue hairless rats, but not to support anyone breeding them deliberately (on a side note, breeding a rex rat to another rex rat produces a 'double rex' rat, which has sparse, patchy fur, and can look very much like a hairless, but without any of the associated health issues.
But because I was so fond of my hairless rats, I began looking at hairless cats. When I worked at the vet, we had a local breeder of sphynx who would bring her litters in for their neuters and vaccs, and they were WONDERFUL kittens. SO friendly and outgoing and lovely, I fell in love with their temperaments as much as their looks.
My research into the hairless cats has not thrown up much of anything that negatively affects them as a result of their hairlessness.
All I could find was that hairless can have heart issues, but thats true of some furred cat breeds too, and many dog breeds that we don't target as 'unethical', and can be avoided by purchasing from a breeder who works on this.
And other than them needing to be wiped down sometimes because of skin oils (more a human inconvinience than anything that bothers the cat) and obviously needing to be kept indoor only (which many cats are anyway) I couldn't find anything that made me concerned about that breed.
Perhaps if anyone does know any issues, they could let me know, because google doesn't throw up much, neither does talking to breeders. If there are no health issues related to their hairlessness, then are we just opposing them because they're 'different' or 'not natural'? (well, they are natural really as the first one was a naturally occuring mutation, not something we bred to create).
The price tag is what keeps me away from the sphynx at the moment, about £900! I just can't afford that for a cat; thats more than I paid for my pedigree doberman.
Also must point out that while Im no expert on hairless guinea pigs, it is NOT true that hairless rats must live indoor only. Most rat keepers who rescue or breed or have a large number of rats keep them in an outbuilding or shed. If it extremely cold, I will heat my shed, for all my rats. But I have a hairless boy out there now, no heater on, and he does absolutely fine. With plenty of other rats to cuddle up to, and lots of warm bedding, he really doesn't suffer at all. Of course you wouldn't throw them outside in a cage in the garden, but in an outbuilding or shed, they do just fine.
ReplyDeleteIt's a real shame that there are so many people that bash breeders, even if they are doing right by their breed. Miss Harris ... what is your experience breeding animals? My guess ... you have NONE! I do agree that there are unreputable breeders out there, that are only in it for money, BUT there are many reputable breeders that health test their breeding stock and breed the very best they can. Those breeders are being bashed as if they were the puppy mill and backyard breeders. Do you actually realize that there are crossbreed's that are dying of cancer, have diabetes, heart conditions, etc..? There is no research possible for crossbreeds because THEY ARE NOT A BREED, so how can you track research? We have a journalist, who is very likely an animal rights ACTIVIST, who I'm sorry... are not there to protect animals, they are there to take the rights away from people who love animals. Activists feel that no one should own an animal, so when others out there feel they are there doing God's work ... THINK AGAIN! In a time when purebred dogs are taking such a beating ... it's the backyard breeders, breeding poo's and doodle's, that are being praised and they care nothing about the health of what they are breeding and for all you know they are breeding brother and sister, yet the activists have the general public convinced that these are healthy. Are they really? Any species, including human, can have health issues no matter how careful you are ... it's part of being alive! If there were no purebreds to condemn... and the crossbred (what used to be reffered to as mutts) with the fancy name of designer dogs, are found to have a host of medical problems.... then what? The purebreds will be gone and no longer will you be able to look in a book and choose the breed that best suits you because with crossbreeding.... nothing is guaranteed and that includes health, temperament, size, compatability.... you have nothing more that a crap shoot.
ReplyDeleteThe general public must take responsibility... purchasing a dog is no different than purchasing anything else; you must do your homework, and if you decide that you are going to purchase the cheapest dog you can find, then that is exactly what you shall have. When you end up at your vet with a host of problems, just remember that it is YOU who who decided to save money when you went to an unreputable breeder; you did get what you paid for! You should have researched and located a breeder that is known for producing good stock and paid the price! You get shafted for a dog and now ALL breeders are blamed for this! It is YOU who should be blamed.
So easy to bash all the breeds and breeders. To take the word of a journalist who took ONE example of a breed that had problems and painted an ugly picture for all in that particular breed and every breeder who breeds them?? Why were no healthy examples of those breeds on the documentary? A good journalist will hear both sides of a story... not this one! It was NOT on the agenda! Shame on you!
It's disgusting what the majority of showbreeders are doing to all types of animals in the interests of getting their names in lights.
ReplyDeletehttp://catwrights.blogspot.co.za/2012/09/battering-breed.html
What about the modern siamese? Siamese were never in history pencil-legged, swan necked cats with bat ears on the side of their stretched-out rat head.
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