That's the title of a hard-hitting article in the Canadian Veterinary Journal by veterinary dentist Dr Fraser Hale in which he says that breeding brachycephalic dogs is unethical.
Critics of Pugs, Bulldogs, Pekes, Boston Terriers and other short-faced breeds often focus on the dogs' inability to breathe - but as Dr Hale spells out, in pursuit of "cute" we have created dogs with hideously deformed mouths that often condemn the dogs to a lifetime of pain.
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| A typical pug mouth |
"... the maxilla is too short compared to the mandibles. The upper incisors are in traumatic contact with the floor of the mouth and lower canine teeth. The maxillary premolars are so crowded that there may be no gingiva between and little or no bone support and the teeth may be rotated 90° or more.
"Some teeth may be under-erupted due to crowding and impaction against adjacent or opposing teeth. The result is that the animal effectively bites itself every time it closes its mouth and there is an extreme predisposition to early onset and rapid progression of periodontal disease.
"The traumatic contact between the maxillary incisors and the mandibular structures will often lead to traumatic pulpitis and pulp necrosis in the maxillary incisors. There is also often severe bunching-up of the palatal rugae with entrapment of hair, food, and bacteria leading to chronic, painful palatitis hidden from view at the bottom of the deep, closed folds.
"Some of the dental/oral liabilities associated with brachycephalism can be mitigated by proactive surgery (selective extraction), but many animals do not get to benefit from these procedures and so live with chronic dental pain and infection."Dr Fraser points out how illogical it is that veterinarians have campaigned for and, in many cases, achieved bans for cosmetic procedures such as ear-cropping, tail-docking and removal of dew claws which cause only temporary pain and yet have remained silent on this issue. He concludes:
I believe that as protectors of animal welfare, veterinarians should start a public awareness campaign to inform people of the serious, life-long negative impacts of brachycephalism. I believe we must stop referring to these conditions as “normal for the breed” and refer to them as “grossly abnormal in accordance with breed standards” because there is nothing remotely normal or desirable from the animal’s perspective. I believe we must stop using photographs of these deformed but comical breeds in advertising and promotional materials as this just increases public demand because they are “so cute.”
"I am sure these words are going to stimulate some lively, possibly acrimonious response. I am effectively saying that it is unethical to purposely reproduce animals that are specifically designed to have serious structural deformities. The extension of this thinking would be to ban a great number of breeds. Oh, the backlash! My word! But when one looks at it strictly from the animal’s perspective, there is no valid, logical justification for brachycephalism. Its only positive is that many people find brachycephalic breeds esthetically pleasing (cute) and that is not a valid excuse for wilful perpetuation of these mutations."
Read the whole article here:
Dr Hale, 54, runs a small-animal dental and oral practice in Guelph, Ontario (www.toothvet.ca). I emailed him some questions:
• was there a specific incident that prompted you to write the article?
This is something that has been bothering me for some years, and I always half joked that after I retire, when I do not care what people think of me (because it would not hurt my business), I would launch this campaign. I do not plan to retire for another 5-6 years at the earliest but I just could not keep silent any longer. The tipping point came when the newsletter of the Ontario Veterinary Medical Association bore this cover.
On the one hand the cover talked about preventative care and on the other featured a montage of photos of a bulldog pup. The irony was too much to bear. So I wrote the editor a letter [which then formed the basis for the CVJ article]
• what response have you had to the article?
I have had no response and seen no replies to the piece in the CVJ. The Focus letter did spark some replies, most in support and a few taking a defensive stance. The Focus printed one positive and one negative letter. The negative letter was so full of logical holes that I did not bother responding to it. I have also mentioned this issue at a number of conferences and on an internet discussion board and I get lots of positive and supportive feedback from veterinarians. Aside from the one letter in the Focus, I cannot think of a single incident in which a veterinarian has given me any negative feedback so those that disagree with me are just keeping quiet about it.
• what do you think prevents veterinarians from speaking out more often?
Veterinarians are in a tough spot here. Imagine a new client shows up with their brand new pug puppy for first examination and vaccines. They have never had a dog before, have no idea what they have gotten themselves into and are just so happy and proud of their new bundle of joy. The veterinarian wants to keep this new client rather than scaring them away, so they are going to avoid all the negative and scary talk about all the problems that their pup is going to have with its mouth, its breathing, its eyes because it is a hideously deformed genetic mutation. So, they oh and ah over the cute little puppy and give it hugs and treats and send the owners home none-the-wiser about all the problems that are just around the corner. It is a bit of a conflict of interest. I am guilty of this too. I am concerned that if I get the reputation of being a brachy-hater, all of those clients with brachycephalics will go elsewhere and I lose 50% of my business. But if I am not part of the solution, I am part of the problem and I am getting tired of treating so much pathology that could be prevented simply by not creating deformed dogs and cats.
• do you share your frustration with the owners of the brachycephalic breeds you treat?
I try as diplomatically as I can to let them know that the reason their pet has so much pathology in the mouth is because of a serious craniofacial deformity. I have to judge each clients ability/willingness to hear this message and tailor my approach to that assessment. Some have said “If I had only known, I would never have gotten this breed”. I just wish people would research a breed thoroughly before they get their pet.
• which breeds are your main brachy clients?
There could easily be a geographic bias with this, some breeds being more popular in one area than another, but I see all sorts. Pugs, Boston terriers, French Bulldogs, shih tzus, boxers, lhasa apsos and all sorts of mixed breeds. Then as well as brachycephalic dogs, highly miniaturized ones also have terrible mouths, so add Yorkies, toy and teacup poodles, Chihuahuas, Maltese, Havanese, Bichons… and any crosses of these breeds. And that is just a partial list. Of course, the small brachycephalics are the worst of the bunch. Oh yes, add CKCSs to the list.
• which breed/s in your view are the worst affected?
That is like asking which ocean is the wettest. All brachycephalic breeds are a mess and there is no valid rational or medical justification for the perpetuation of any of them.
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| Dr Hale with his mixed-breed adoptee Molly |
All hail Dr Hale!
Finally! Someone brave enough to spek the truth and he has bags of common sense too. All hale Dr.Hail indeed. I am going to share this article everywhere! Well done Jemima!
ReplyDelete"This is common in English Bulldogs"
ReplyDeletehttp://veterinarydentistry.net/blog/2013/07/07/tooth-rotation-and-crowding-causing-periodontal-disease-in-an-english-bulldog/
Right, so now we have it confirmed by an educated, practicing, dog loving vet, that "B" breeds are being presented with untold issues just relating to the head area. The rest of the body is compromised too because to capture the "baby" face the cobby, short legged stance has to "match". So, isn't it now time to formally lobby the Kennel Clubs and press them to cease registration of these breeds and inform the public that, as Dr Hale, clearly states, purchasers of these "B" breeds are buying into a whole lot of expense and heartache in an attempt to maintain some sort of quality of life for their pets, but in reality just prolonging the pain and distress for the dog. The KCs need to give advice and help to people who love these breeds and be forthright in their condemnation of exaggeration in all breeds of dogs. Needless to say my old hobby horse, litigation will come to the fore, because when the pet purchasers are publicly informed about the health conditions of their "B" pets they will seek recompense from the breeders who breed just for monetary gain. The breeders will realise that there is no point in continuing to breed under threat of being sued and will just pull out (sadly turn their attention to another breed probably). This will cause a natural slow down of the "B" breeds but it won't happen overnight and the hundreds of puppies born in the meantime will have a compromised lifestyle, maybe not all thankfully, but a high percentage. The video of the bulldog trampolining is wonderful, he clearly loves it, but he wouldn't be able to do it if he was as deformed as his "brothers and sisters".
ReplyDeleteI felt sick reading that. Knowing how painful it is on the rare occasions when I bite my mouth, I can't imagine breeding a dog where that is the norm.
ReplyDeleteI hadn't realised that Toy Poodles also had dental problems, although I did know that Italian Greyhounds often suffer from periodontal disease, so it does make sense for them to be similar.
I can't look at brachycephalic breeds as it is, without shuddering.
I look at the people who 'own' them and shudder! Utterly clueless.
DeleteThe dogs, I just feel sorry for...
It's so sad. I've seen a 3 year old staffy, a 7 year old yorkie and a 2 year old yorkie all with varying degrees of rotten, broken teeth, or jutting out at weird angles. When I compare to my 13 year old Border Collie (whose teeth were immaculate except for the 1 missing tooth that was missing since the day I rescued him - I suspect kicked out by livestock) I realize the problem isn't owner not taking care of teeth (at 2 years old even a crappy owner wouldn't manage to wreck a dog's teeth) it's bad breeding.
DeleteLast sentence - did you mean - any of them?
ReplyDeleteHe did. The perils of copying and pasting from emails. Have corrected.
DeleteOr rather copying and pasting from emails and then not proof-reading...
DeleteAll Hail Dr. Hale indeed. It's a wonder no other vet has ever been so bold as to state something so bleeding obvious.
DeleteFinally, good news :) Thank you and great respects to Dr Hale.
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to know what dental management he would recommend for those dogs already exisiting , I have a "B " breed & when one had a dental told the vet to just remove the front teeth and the first molars behind the canines as they are no use and almost always rot & fall out eventually anyway but the vet wouldn't do it.
ReplyDeleteThough some "B " breeds have teeth more prone to plaque build up that others so I think the make up of their saliva is partly to blame
Bravo!
ReplyDeleteI've said for years that I would never want to own any brachycephalic breed, hate the distorted and deformed appearance and the resulting health problems, and would be glad to see the deliberate breeding of all brachycephalic dogs banned
ReplyDeleteGood article, and Dr. Hale is very brave for speaking up, especially as it clearly is not in his business interest to do so. Repect.
ReplyDeleteIt is good that Dr Hale has spoken out.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think the focus should be on brachycephalic individuals, not on breeds. In some of the breeds mentioned, I'm thinking specifically about the Boston, there is considerable range in muzzle length, and some dogs have heads that look more like staffies or pit bulls than like show pugs. Where a breed offers a range of muzzle lengths, it should be at least as easy to breed out brachycephaly as it was to breed it in.
I live in Central Florida and it's in the 90s most days in the summer, with high humidity. The dog park I frequent most has a couple regular Bostons, whose faces are perhaps a little shorter, proportionally, than my Labradors. They show no problems coping with the heat...unlike my poor double coated critters.
Where the option exists, it's better to encourage people to look for dogs with longer muzzles than to totally avoid supposedly brachy breeds.
Thank you, I have a healthy 6.5 yr old BT to 'type' -a CKC champion- who has no problem whatsoever with extreme temperatures or exercise (he excels at disc and agility, here in the Okanagan where 90 F degrees is the summer norm). No breathing or dental issues here. Why don't we try to breed healthy dogs instead of condemning entire breeds based on some poorly bred examples?
Delete'Condemning breeds'! Are you implying he doesn't care about these dogs by 'condemning' them? he is simply speaking the truth. And risking an onslaught of defensiveness by people with their priorities clearly messed up.....
DeleteBreeding healthy dogs means moving away from the physical deformities that are found in brachycephalic dogs. They are beyond saving, physically.
Did you actually READ Dr. Hale's article. Your response is akin to someone sticking their fingers in their ears and going ' LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!'
He's right, sadly. He probably will face a backlash by people who are so ignorant and selfish that they can't see the wood from for the trees. The fact is, his opinions are based on his EXPERTISE and physiological understanding of what makes an animal healthy.
Sick dogs, sick people.
Jennifer
Delete‘It's pretty basic animal breeding’
But that isn’t the issue here is it? It’s the human pathology that is the issue. Breeding dogs with these physical deformities simply meets the desire and demand for some warped anthropomorphic projection of canine beauty. If it was about basic animal breeding issues then the UK KC may well have taken seriously the comments from a documentary screened in the 80s (27 years ago by qualified veterinarians) about these exact issues. They would have then revised the breed standards adequately; educated the breeders and formed some sort of regulatory process to ensure that we aren’t where we are today with these dogs. Now clearly that hasn’t happened, hence the reason people like Jemima and Dr Hale have no choice other than to speak out. Outcrossing and opening stud books are entirely sensible options but we are not dealing with sensible people on the whole here. If we were, they wouldn’t continue to breed these types of dogs.
Your anecdotal evidence of witnessing healthy BTs in Florida does not justify the fact that because they are ‘cute little dogs who do well in urban environments’, therefore it is OK to continue to breed them. Particularly in the light of the professional concerns presented by Dr Hale.
Pugs are also ‘cute little dogs’ to a lot of people too. That is the problem! Lots of other dogs can do well in urban environments too if they are housed with human beings who have an understanding of canine behaviour. The fact that these dogs are generally unreactive and most people can get away with no training or behavioural modification indicates that a lot of these dogs end up in homes with people who would quite honestly be better off with a stuffed dog because they are probably pretty clueless about the emotional life and welfare of a dog anyway.
Cute = flat face; big eyes; curled tail/twisted spine etc. These are all physical deformities.
Humans have abused the canine genome to their own ends.
most breeds have a plainer type within the breeds bloodlines so breed the long nose/long leg dogs to each other & within a few generations we see quite an improvement.
ReplyDeleteJennifer, that doesn't make sense.
ReplyDeletePlease explain what doesn't make sense.
DeleteIt's pretty basic animal breeding. If there's a trait you don't like, you selectively breed against the trait. Sure, you narrow the gene pool if you do this, and you may end out needing to compensate by outcrossing. But the BT is basically a mutt, created by cross breeding at the beginning of the last century. They're also cute little dogs that do well in urbanized environments. Because the more natural type is pretty common, there is a moderately broad gene pool to select from, especially if you are willing to open the stud books.
p.s. I use the BT as an example cause it's the (supposedly) brachy breed I like best. Breeding from the more natural type and bringing in outside blood as required should work for many breeds, however.
I have replied above to what doesn't make sense. Anon 11:18
DeleteBreed long-nosed within a breed? I do think that makes sense - except that it may narrow the within-breed gene pools even further, if that's possible!
ReplyDeleteWhat we need to do is stop pedigree breeders from breeding - themselves, that is! There's a psychopathology there that needs stamping out.
I was stopped in my tracks in the park today to ask about a stunning blue merle dog with a really delightful disposition. He was a Coolie X Golden Retriever - the result of an accident between a farm dog and a GR owned by a pedigree breeder. He had been one of only two pups rescued after the GR breeder murdered the other 6 beautiful, unique, healthy babies, because they were 'racially impure'.
THAT's the pathology that needs fixing!!!
Awesome piece by Dr Hale. So glad he wrote it. It will be fine for his practice - better, I predict, as a flood of distressed B owners head his way. It will help other vets feel OK about speaking out too - and about being expert witnesses ;))
Yes - it's the people who need fixing. A good shrink may help! Also, education and a bit more empathy wouldn't hurt...
DeleteI don't think that these dogs can be helped. Just look at the Pug. Over 10,000 in the UK and all so genetically homogenous that it's the equivalent of about 50 people (from PDE 1). How on earth are you going to save that and maintain genetic diversity? The real issue is that people are attracted to the deformities - the flat face, the curved tail, the big eyes etc. That is why the Pug exists as a stand alone breed.
Great idea Anonymous 23:43. Lets have free love for dogs. Mix n match as they choose. But wait a minute. I don't really like the temperament of our neighborhood stray dogs, especially the pit bull, who gets into a lot of fights. And the GSD shows signs of HD. And it's a lot harder to find a good home for X breed pups with dad unknown than it is to find homes for a pedigree Labrador. Maybe we should spey and neuter them all and stop worrying about dogs. Or, we could revert to having a fraction of the dog owning public choose to allow their dogs to reproduce, and to plan their litters in a way that produces desirable pups. Wait a minute. That means breeders!!!
DeleteI commend the link in Dr Hale's post below. If people were better informed and did not que up to buy flat faced and otherwise deformed dogs, breeders of such dogs would be left high and dry.
Yes,we need to save these breeds,as well as keep new breeds from becoming Brachycephalic. Not sure why its so popular and that dogs like Rottweilers and American bulldogs have to be bred for it now too.
ReplyDeleteDogs have about 42 teeth,they need a larger mouth then humans or cats to fit them all in.
We need to save these breeds yet stop other breeds becoming brachycephalic ......that doesn't make sense either!
DeleteWhy not? To not just breed for better health and athleticism in the dogs that are already pretty messed up. Pretty much only breeding the ones that can function normally,and have proved it.
DeleteAs well as not promoting brachy dogs and to keep working dogs to their working standards. More and more dog breeds are now being bred for shorter and shorter muzzles. Rottweilers,Cane Corso's,Boxers,Tibetan Mastiffs,American bulldogs,Newfoundlands,Bull mastiffs,St.Bernards,Chows,Cavalier king charles spaniels,Cocker spaniels...I would like to stop that.
Then we don't need to save brachycephalic breeds then! We need to stop brachycephalism as Dr Hale as mentioned. The breed standards need to be rewritten for these dogs, IF they are to survive, to ensure that physical deformities are not encouraged or exaggerated.
DeleteWe need to change the mentality of the people who think that flat faced dogs with their soft palates stuffed down their throats are OK and humanely acceptable as healthy dogs. THAT is the real difficulty and the challenge. The healthy breeding philosophy isn't difficult to grasp. Pragmatism does not exist when people are sold on an image and refuse to look at the evidence before their eyes.
How do you breed healthy Pugs in the UK when there are only the equivalent of 50 individuals? Outcrossing. Now, you know and I know that is sensible but look at the KC amd the breed clubs. They aren't exactly on the same page here.
and just because people want or desire these dogs doesn't make it OK. It isn't socially acceptable to justify walking around with one of these dogs in the light or growing evidence of appalling health and suffering.
I guess I didn't word myself properly,not sure why your arguing with me because I agree.
DeleteDemiandogs - I think your comprehension implied saving brachycephalic breeds, when perhaps you meant modifying them to a more healthier phenotype perhaps?
DeleteYou see all these obvious facts about how horrible a situation this is? Its all racist, so this guy should be shamed and blacklisted so hard by the dog breeding community that McCarthy would blush if he were alive today. Just watch, if this ever reaches the mainstream public eye, he'll be targeted worse than that Rodeo Clown.... Good freakin' luck.
ReplyDeleteSkyArk, you are certainly welcome to disagree with me, as I am sure many people will. But don't just "hate". Give us some rational, medically and biologically sound arguments for your stance. Then we can have an intelligent debate and maybe we will get somewhere. Otherwise, you just come off as a crack pot and you will have no credibility in the discussion
DeleteSkyArk has wrong-stepped us before with his sarcasm. Not entirely sure he meant it as it reads above.
DeleteSkyArk?
Yes, sarcasm seems very hard to detect it seems. I tried to make it as blatant as possible for the sheer ridiculousness of using such words in a straight rational manner, but that seems to also fly above people's heads somehow.
DeleteIt is a bit sad really when we cannot use such expressions in text when we get so easily misinterpreted. It reminds me of my novel-making and english classes who kept bullying me for using "?!" at the end of some sentence to express the force and bewilderment of what is said, but can't because its "not proper". It baffles me how they somehow still accept slang.
Its selective acceptance and rejection like that, that really pisses me off, much like here, where "breeds should have this and that characteristic, and if they don't, they are not acceptable", yet when someone says "their teeth are deformed" or "their legs look like frogs" or "they shouldn't be bred if that's whats going to happen" they somehow get shat on for being racist and close-minded for what a person can do to a pet.
Hi Skyark, I avoid sacrcasm in the written word because to fully appreciate one's point it is lots. Sacrasm in reality is only useful on a face to face basis, one can see the eyes and understand what is being said. So, perhaps, many of your valid points are lost, misunderstood and cause invalid anger because as strangers we can only understand the written word and take it as read. Punctuation marks can help sarcasm in the written form but not a lot. Especially when one is commenting on a such a passionate and heart rendering topic as dogs. Don't lose your valid points using sarcasm, give us a fighting chance to agree or disagree in a straight forward presentation, please.
DeleteHaha, how about no. I'll use it when appropriate, and get detailed and straight-forward when in deep thought. I've seen plenty of forum-goers do the same, with many using sarcasm far more extreme than me, especially in tweets, and they seem to have little problem (nor have I overall, regardless of hard passionate topics).
DeleteBut my original comment's purpose was simply something to give thought to. It wasn't supposed to be taken seriously with huge paragraphs on how I comment. Just chill and ignore it if you hate it.
You do not need to cut out dogs but choose more wisely, some breeds may well need outside help. But many breeds do have the plainer types available maybe not with rego but AKC but they are there.
ReplyDeleteStop brachycephalism.......that is ALOT of breeds, crossbreeds and mutts.
ReplyDeleteBased on dental problems that's also a lot of other toy breeds.
Where to start?
Where to start indeed. But start we must and start we have, thanks to people like Jemima. Changing public opinion is a slow process and it will take both patience and persistence.
DeleteYes, but it's one thing to say that we should be breeding for less extreme dogs (which I support), and quite another to say that no brachy (or toy) dogs should be bred at all.
DeleteI don't know how things are in the UK, but here in the States there is already a very strong push to adopt or rescue, with an underlying subtext that no one should be breeding any dogs at all, ever, as long as there are any dogs being euthanized.
This sort of radical approach (saying no brachy dogs should be bred) will alienate too many people of the people that matter to do much good.
If you have someone who loves her pug and you point out how her pug's life could be better if she had a longer muzzle and lacked the corkscrew tail, she might come on board.
But to tell her there should be no more pugs, ever? That just won't fly.
"I don't know how things are in the UK"
DeleteHere is a snap shot of KC registration stats since 2009, on a few of our most popular brachys since three major reports on pedigree dog welfare were published since 2008.
we have had a percentage increase in KC registrations for the following brachys from 2009 to present.
PUG= 54%
FB=205%
BULLDOG= 14%
KC Top 20 breeds......
2011 to 2012
Pug moves up from 9 to 5
French Bulldog not even in the top 20 in 2011, jumps to 12.
Bulldog moves 13 to 11
In many ways and for many reasons dog breeding needs to slow down globally. The horrific images of dogs cruelly treated has to stop. My beef in the past has been that whilst pedigree dogs, from any source, are being churned out and because there are only a finite number of homes available in any one decade, gorgeous, happy, dogs are being destroyed, needlessly in the main. There will have to be Government intervention because no breeder who is receiving an untaxed, unmonitored, income stream from a relatively easy source is going to voluntarily restrain themselves. Puppy farms/mills should be the first target and the greedy, careless breeders next. The KC can expose them, they have the statistics, micro-chipping is going to be compulsory and so formal intervention is going to be easier, not fool proof, but easier. The genuine, kind, responsible pedigree dog breeder has nothing to fear and everything to gain. Kate's stats underline why people are buying these "sick" dogs, the energetic, time consuming less damaged breeds are sliding down the top of the pops list because people want a dog but can't be bothered to give it the lifestyle it needs because these breeds demand attention. The "sick" breeds highlighted in this and other topics are disabled they can't demand anything. They wiggle and wag, they pant, they play with toys and that my friend is as far as it can go. If they were healthy they would demand a better lifestyle, walks, swimming, romps etc etc. Because humans have disabled them, they have become the "dog lovers" easy option, just like a convenient piece of hardware. The poor dogs can't even bark, it takes too much energy and they can't get the oxygen in to achieve the bark in the first place.
DeleteIt would be helpful if Petplan would publish their annual figures for the various diseases and problems afflicting the different breeds, and how much it costs to treat them.
DeleteThey could list them in several categories, depenidng on the number and severity of ailments each dog has per year.
It would be helpful if PetPlan would publish their annual figures. No harm in asking them I guess? Embrace Pet Insurance publish this data in the USA. I think you referred to this in the previous post Fran? The brachycephalic breeds come out as high risk for an array of health issues.
DeleteJemima have you approached any insurance companies for this sort of data in the UK?
Several times. And not just me - many others have tried, too, including Pat Bateson and the Dog Advisory Council etc. The UK insurance companies simply won't play ball, citing commercial sensitivity.
DeleteIt wasn't always the case. PetPlan gave data to Bob Michell for this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619607
'commercial sensitivity' isn't in any interests of breeding ethics or animal welfare concerns of course. More to do with competitive interests...
DeleteGiven the increasing evidence and pressure from both veterinary professionals and pet owners, I can't see how they can continue to sit on this data and not share it in the best interests of the pet owning public and the welfare of the dogs. Pet owners are the very reason these companies exist. People need to be empowered to make informed decisions on the health of their companion dogs, free from the bias of breed clubs and the KC I feel. Insurance data can help provide that objectivity.
Thanks Jemima. Interesting study anyway....
There are quite a number of studies using Swedish insurance data, and a couple using Danish data. They don't include information on costs though.
DeleteAnon 00:17 please can you share this data if you have access to a link?
Deletemany thanks!
Anon 00:17
DeleteThe Scandinavians seem to be far more sensible in their approach to all things canine. The Swedish KC, arguably the best in the world where the dog's health is the priority.
What is the human mentality towards brachycephalic dogs in Scandinavia? Are they popular?
You can find the Swedish studies with this google scholar search.
Deletehttp://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Agria+Insurance+Dog
My mistake on the Danish studies. The few I could find were based on kennel club survey, not insurance data.
Why can't people accept the truth? The mentality of some people defending the existence of these pathetic creatures is as freakish as the look of these dogs! Utterly baffling.
ReplyDeleteAnd SkyArk - that is the biggest laugh I have had in a long time.
I linked this article to a dog forum, 1 spoke out against it now none are game to have an opinion.
ReplyDeleteA poster spoke out saying her pekes are fine & that he is a dentist not a vet so not qualified to voice his opinions or findings. I did point out the article was about teeth & mouths and that surely a dentist vet is actually above a general vet there.
Some people refuse to see what you put in front of them. It is like they are blind to it .
Actually, I am a veterinarian. My degree is DVM (Doctor of Veterinary Medicine) which I obtained from the Ontario Veterinary College in 1984. I spent 6 years in general small animal practice before limiting my practice to dental and oral surgery. I became board-certified as a veterinary dental specialist in 1997 (Diplomate of the American Veterinary Dental College). So just like your cardiologist is an MD first and a cardiac specialist second, I am a veterinarian first and foremost but am qualified as a specialist in veterinary dental and oral surgery.
DeleteHis is a reasoned rant that will not get his demanded result. I appreciate his frustration, but ... t'ain't no way breeders of brachy dogs are gonna stop breeding them. Their mouths are a jumbled mess and their breathing apparati are terribly hindered. But as long as there is no law against breeding them, they will be bred. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
ReplyDeleteFrankly, while he makes valid points, his are the sort of overly-broad statements that make breeders and owners afraid to take on any issues at all. Just reading it, it makes me wonder what groups he's going for next. Large breeds? Dwarf dogs? Dogs like border collies who are borderline neurotic?
ReplyDeleteI have trouble believing that every boxer has dental problems, for instance. And he's added Bichons to the list, one of the absolutely most joyful little family dogs anyone could have.
'Overly broad statements'
DeleteStick to the issues Beth. He is referring to brachycephalic breeds here. Why would anyone be afraid of addressing these issues? I'm afraid that statement infers that these people actually don't care about the welfare of the animals that they are guardians to.
'Dogs like BC who are borderline neurotic' - only if they are not exercised or mentally stimualted adequately! They are working dogs primarily and not pets. They aren't physically dropping to bits though that's for sure because they tend to be bred with the attitude that form follows function, fortunately.
You have trouble believeing every boxer has dental problems. I have trouble believing that there are any that do not. I see so much pathology in boxer mouths, I wrote an article specifically about them - http://www.toothvet.ca/PDFfiles/FocusOnBoxers.pdf
DeletePlus, they are the #1 breed (by far) for this problem - http://www.toothvet.ca/PDFfiles/gingival_hyperplasia.pdf
'I have trouble believing that every boxer has dental problems, for instance.'
DeleteOn what evidence is that statement based?
Possibly just your opinion because you can't face the truth?
'And he's added Bichons to the list, one of the absolutely most joyful little family dogs anyone could have.'
That way of thinking is part of the problem and not the solution. They may well be lovely dogs to own, but why would you discount the fact that there is evidence that they have health concerns because of poor breeding practices? Does that still make them lovely to own?
Beth have you ever owned a collie? We have several highly intelligent hard working dogs that are relied upon daily basis, you certainly couldn't have a borderline neurotic dog around livestock they would be pretty useless don't you think???
DeletePlease explain all the factors to your claim as I am curious!
Beth's statements seem to reflect a lack of knowledge of canine behaviour unfortunately. No offence Beth. It does seem to reflect the mindset that exists with people who defend brachycephalic dogs to the nth degree. Therefore it's important to try to understand where she is coming from.
DeleteIt's almost like a protective 'don't you hurt my baby!' type reaction. Which is interesting because the human pathology at hand is really about people being profoundly emotionally affected by the neotinised features IMO and it is shockingly anthorpomorphic, to the detriment of the dogs' health. It is warped. I actually feel sorry for people who are defending these sick dogs. They don't understand the genetics of the domestic dog - the fact that most dogs are genetically the same, it's all in the expression and epigenesis. They fail to grasp that if we stop breeding Pugs and Bulldogs, the domestic dog will STILL exist, they just won't LOOK like Pugs or Bulldogs. And that brings us back to the whole frame of reference of PDE. Breeding for form over function.
Education isn't going to help when people are still allowed to make crap choices based on their emotions. Perhaps brachycephalia and the resulting breeds should be banned? It's taking hold in other breeds too which is the worry. I don't want a sick dog. I want a healthy animal who looks and behaves like nature intended. I fear litigation may also be the way forward too..
Beth it is your last comment that worries me.
ReplyDelete"And he's added Bichons to the list, one of the absolutely most joyful little family dogs anyone could have."
Same could be and is said about pugs.
But this isn't about what joy the dogs bring to us it is about the dogs and their welfare, and this is coming from someone who is at the grim end of fixing the problems that they regularly see.
I hope more opthalmologists and soft tissue specialists follow suit with the truth because maybe *that* will make a difference.
What will make the difference is that if pet purchases are informed and stop purchasing deformed pups/kittens, the market dries up and the breeders will have no choice but to change their ways. We really cannot blame breeders completely. They are just fulfilling the public demand as I outline in this paper - http://www.toothvet.ca/PDFfiles/Who_is_responsible.pdf
DeleteIf only it was so simple Fraser. We all know that refined sugar is bad for us, but the obesity (and diabetes) epidemic gets worse, not better.
DeleteThis is not ultimately about education because, as others have noted, this is about human pathology. If people are given a choice (fruit or candy; pug or Jack Russell;) they will continue to make bad choices, however much education you ram down their throat (although obviously I'm pro education too, or I wouldn't keep the blog going). If people don't care about killing themselves or their children, how on earth can you expect them to make sensible choices re dogs?
I'm a woolly liberal at heart. Don't like the idea of banning anything. But the cost for some of these dogs is just too high. Pug registrations here in the UK have gone through the roof since PDE, despite the incredibly strong message the film(s) gave about this breed.
There are some things as a civilised human being you just have to say "no" to. Like slavery; racial prejudice; inhumane farming methods; smoking; genocide.
Interestingly, registrations of Cavaliers have dropped like a stone since PDE (they have almost halved since 2008), so the message has got through there. The problem, I think, is that the lure of the brachy face/baby-like characteristics is just too great because it meets such a deep emotional need in (some of) us.
There's an inexorable drive to brachy-ise breeds which used to have entirely norma muzzles. This is especially noticeable in America - eg the American Cocker and many US rottweillers.
Athough this not restricted to the US. Just look at this dog:
http://www.vonevmans.com/filou/filou.asp
There are some things as a civilised human being you just have to say "no" to. Like slavery; racial prejudice; inhumane farming methods; genocide.
To say that today is the fifth anniversary since the original broadcast of PDE this thread really makes for heart sinking reading. Heart sinking because as much as Fraser Hale’s call for a ban may be valid he is by no means the first. Emma Milne called for that about a decade ago. She raised similar heartfelt concerns even then but to no avail. She even made an Inside Out programme about it details of which are still on the BBC website. Heart sinking because it is like groundhog day. The same concerns are raised about conformation. The same few people come on here to make their points, the same tired points. The same tired conclusions seem to be drawn.
DeleteThose that just don’t know where to start with tackling this issue through a ban are simply full of hot air. Campaigning for a ban is far more straightforward than just about any other possible solution. So please once and for all get on and actively campaign for that. Or just STFU. If vets are really that concerned about the welfare issues then why did they not join Emma Milne’s rank and support her in 2004? What has Frazer Hale done since the publication of his opinion piece back in February to try and secure a ban? Why does he not make it clear on his web site that these breeds should not be purchased? What have you done Jemima in the past five years to try and secure a ban? And for pity’s sake why on earth would you “hat tip” (nasty nasty Americanism) Joe Inglis as you did in the previous post? His video on heatstroke did absolutely nothing to address the real cause of the problems in Bulldogs and he regularly, and I mean regularly uses pictures of cute brachycephalic dogs to promote his “Klinic” on facebook. Which side are you all on? The side of simply perpetuating the problems? Or the side of wanting to be part of the solution? If it is the latter then at least Jemima have the guts to start campaigning for the ban on these breeds that you so clearly have wanted. Or will you all be here on August 19th 2018 rehearsing the exact same views?
A baby face Rottie if ever I saw one. Yikes.....it's scary the way the brachy 'meme' is taking hold.
Delete'There are some things as a civilised human being you just have to say "no" to. Like slavery; racial prejudice; inhumane farming methods; genocide....'
And breeding physically deformed companion animals who suffer pain to fulfil a pathological human desire...
The only thing is Jemima, that some of the points you make re eating sugar, smoking, slavery, racial prejudice etc. are choices made by humans. Humans choose to design and breed dogs and cats that too exaggerated and consequently damaged. Dogs cannot make that choice, they have to live with the disability. If they are roaming free and mates a dog who wanders by then their disability will be lessened in the offspring. Some will suffer, some will be ok but most will have a new gene that will dilute the deformity in generations to come (hopefully). Dogs in a "closed environment" have to accept a mating to a similar individual, they have no choice, this mating will produce 100% damaged stock. So what I am trying to say is that dogs don't have a choice about the dog who is going to sire their puppies, because we make that choice for them. The cessation of these damaged breeds could stop with the backing of the KCs and as Mr Hale states that if there is no stock available then the choice is removed from the market place. Once the breed is bred to a more acceptable physical form and the dogs are healthier then they can accept registrations etc and the breeds can move forward from that point. Nothing is impossible Jemima, look at what you achieve in the face of adversity, you want to succeed for the benefit of all of those dogs and nothing gets in your way to achieve that end. So with a tiny bit of your determination I am sure that we, collectively, could lobby the KC and breed clubs with the help of the breed clubs concerned and improve the health of countless dogs.
DeleteJemima, you may very well think I have lost the plot in suggesting this but desperate times calls for desperate measures.
DeleteHave you ever thought of approaching the producers who work for Oprah Winfrey at Harpo? Not only is she nuts about dogs, but she happens to be, arguably, one of the most influential women on the planet. Of course, it's a TV show and it has to have some entertainment appeal etc. cultural relevance etc. But she has her own network! How many dogs are in the USA that could be suffering right now with the consequences of brachycephalic syndrome?
OK. Maybe Oprah isn't going to be any help. The president of Harpo, Sheri Selata is a 'Bulldog Mama'....(Groooooaaaaan! Why!!!???). They look pretty sick too according to some of her twitter pics.
DeleteJeez....
Alan Titchmarsh show?? He managed to pretty much obliterate Cesar Milan in five minutes! ;)
Beth, when one is disabled one learns to live with the disability, that doesn't mean it is acceptable, it's a fact that cannot be overcome. So to breed a dog knowing that it's life is going to be compromised is disgraceful. Dogs are accepting, Mr Hale is not over stating anything, he is making a statement that there are breeds of pedigree dogs that are suffering because of the way we, humans, have designed them. Designed them for our needs and perhaps personal shortcomings in our lives. Almost a form of a parent continually damaging it's own child so that it can take it to hospital and be "the centre of attention" - I can't remember what the condition is called. He is not personally targeting any breed, the fact is that the breeds mentioned in the article happen to be suffering. Bichon Frise's are delightful, as are all of the breeds mentioned, but I seem to recall that when the BF was first introduced into the UK by Jackie Ransome(?) they were untidy, free coated, one could say scruffy. That was their appeal. Today they are groomed and puffed balled and look ridiculous. To achieve the coat their lives are compromised because they can't romp and bomb about in the fields or woods. Heaven forbid, they might get dirty. So those original dogs that I remember have been suppressed their joire d'vivre stifled. Their head shape has changed and consequently I don't doubt for one minute that their mouths are damaged as a result of this distortion. Bev, please do not attack, thankfully not all of the dogs in any breed will be affected, but I wouldn't mind betting a pound to a penny that a more than 50% of any of the populations are, and that Bev is 50% too many dogs that suffer on a day to day basis, hour to hour, minute to minute. The dogs know nothing else, as disabled people do, for them it is "normal" so of course, dogs will be cheerful because there is no alternative is there Beth, just be a bit kinder to those who actually know and see and deal with the suffering of the dogs and their owners are are brave enough to expose it by publishing their findings.
ReplyDeleteLet's be honest: the doctor is talking about eliminating ALL brachy breeds and the small toys. All of them. Not improving them, but no longer breeding them.
DeleteDo you think every one of them suffers so much that it would prefer (given the choice) to have never been born? Because that IS what we are talking about as the solution.
I have genetic health problems and genetically bad teeth/bite problems that needed years of work to fix (as do many people). Trust me, life can still be good.
Beth - so what if that is what he is suggesting? It seems entirely sensible given the evidence. Your anthropomorphism reflects the heart of the pathology at work here. Dogs lack the cognitive ability to think about the meaning of life! We don't and we know they only exist as a human construct. And feel pain and suffering for it.
DeleteBeth, when one is disabled one learns to live with the disability, that doesn't mean it is acceptable,
DeleteWhat a disgusting comment and very hitler esq.
Yes Beth, life can still be good. However I presume that your genetic health problems were accidental - luck of the draw? No-one force-mated your parents after establishing that they had genetic faults that they wanted to reproduce?
DeleteThe genetic problems we are talking about here, many of them not only crippling but painful, are being INTENTIONALLY created - over, and over, and over again - due to a pathological failure of empathy. Wouldn't it be just as easy, and infinitely kinder, to intentionally create fit, agile, comfortable animals instead?
Imagine if a 'designer children' phase hit society and a subset of people thought that breeding dwarfed children would be cute, or kids with tiny chins and giant eyes? Would that be OK? Fair? Kind? Reasonable? Would we say that it's a legal right, or that it's unspeakably cruel and unfair?
Beth - ignoring your faulty logic for the moment - let's look at this way: A dog is about to be conceived, it has the choice between being a dog that will spend its life struggling to breathe so much that it will fall asleep standing-up, bite its own mouth every time it tries to eat, suffer from the discomfort of dry eyes, have its knee caps pop out when it tries to run, and get constant skin irritations from yeast infections in its skins folds.
DeleteOr, it can be conceived as a breed that can run and play without pain, enjoy long walks without getting uncomfortably out of breath, eat without discomfort, sleep curled-up or roaching on its back, have the physique to follow its instincts, and live a long and generally healthy life.
Which do you think the DOG would choose?
One of my dogs actually had a gaping hole in his top lip where the undershot bottom teeth had dug in. it didnt heal until the tooth fell out ( he could not have a dental for various reasons at the time)
ReplyDeleteI love my flat faced family but I also hate lies and will be honest about their flaws even if it goes against what I want.
Most people who are heavily involved with breeds can't do this and only want to believe their dogs are perfect in every way .
They even recommend them to people who really would not suit the breeds personality because they can't get their heads around the fact that they are not divine perfection.
Molly looks to have wry jaw!
ReplyDeleteI assure you, my Molly had excellent dental, oral and craniofacial anatomy (actually, all of her anatomy was excellent). I could have used her as a prime example of how a dog's head (including what was between her ears - very smart and level-headed dog) should be constructed.
DeleteOh Please Anon 13:45. Talk about clutching at straws and cheap shots! Molly looks just like a dog should - as nature intended. She even has a muzzle!
DeleteNo Anon 13:45, that's a wry *grin*. She's a really beautiful dog wearing an expression that speaks volumes! :)
DeleteNearly all modern humans have teeth that don't fit in their mouths (in the west, only about 20% can keep wisdom teeth due to crowding, and many have other adult teeth removed as teens to make room). Why? Because we have voluntarily selected for fine features and thus we can't fit our teeth.
ReplyDeleteI used to come here regularly because it was a forum for IMPROVING extreme breeds.
Over time, it has evolved into a forum for doing away with many breeds altogether.
You will not get the people you need on board with this approach. I increasingly don't visit because it's become more radical. You won't get many people on board if your goal is to totally eliminate all brachy dogs, no matter how moderate. Next will be dwarfs, and then very large breeds, and toys, and dogs with too much coat and not enough coat. And then we are left with nothing but the mythical "medium sized brown dog" even though many of our purebred dogs have health problems at a much lower rate than humans do.
It risks becoming a little blog that preaches to a choir rather than a blog that can make a real difference in getting away from the most extreme dogs we are currently seeing.
Wow.
DeleteI struggle to keep rationale when I read nonsense like this but here goes.....
We have selected for fine features when it comes to wisdom teeth? No! It's because our diets have changed, we live longer and we have dentists!
Beth - you keep squirrelling away from the challenges that people have posed to your comments. Yet, you keep bashing out the same old tired, opinionated nonsense that sadly only goes to support the warped human pathology at heart of brachycephalia.
Delete'And then we are left with nothing but the mythical "medium sized brown dog" even though many of our purebred dogs have health problems at a much lower rate than humans do'.
Please provide evidence for this statement.
But you have responded Beth and you will tell your friends, colleagues, relatives about this topic. You will tell them that we are a load of nutters, but in retelling this it will light a fuse with one of your contacts and they will spread the word etc etc. By keeping these appalling breeding practices in the limelight means that eventually somebody will act positively and constructively towards a resolution. Thereby eliminating the suffering of the affected dogs, and the removal of their revolting breeders from the dog breeding world.
DeleteGosh Beth your stupidity is shocking, those of us that truly care about our dogs wish to see an end to the suffering that is inflicted upon them deliberately by arrogant, money motivated, mindless and seemingly heartless possibly brain dead folk, that refuse to acknowledge the catastrophe these exagerations have created..........for those ejits that wont see what's wrong staring back at you, you do not deserve the privilege of being in the presence of a dog let alone own one!
DeleteBeth this blog has always been about improving the lives of some of our pedigree dogs. That said, no amount of education seems to be getting through to the breeders and more puppies are being born that suffer on a daily basis. The brachy breeds are not the only ones to suffer...but there can be nothing worse than being unable to breathe. Dogs will learn to live with what they've got but is it fair for us to afflict them with such pain and suffering....for the sake of a written breed standard? Personally I don't think it is and if people won't change then perhaps the only way forward is a ban...a bit extreme but some countries are actually considering it. If you don't want this to happen then you have to wake up and smell the coffee and please stop hiding your head in the sand.
DeleteI think it amounts to animal abuse to be purposely breeding dogs that will suffer their entire lives...and I cannot understand it. There is resounding evidence of the pain and suffering that these poor souls endure every day in life. If the dogs were being kept without food, water or shelter then the breeders would be prosecuted...but they are allowed to get away with producing sick animals without taking any responsibility and, indeed, even denying their pain and suffering. Animal abuse comes in all forms.
If every person who bought a sick puppy sued the breeder when the puppy became sick from conditions known to them prior to breeding...you would soon see a change of conformation in most of these brachy dogs. They need to be hit in the pocket......
Totally agree with beth, this is now a tired formula of stirring up a shit storm to get a rush to the blog, full of condescending overbearing people. Take a step back jh and try a more easy going approach you will get alot more on board that way than just lumping whole breeds into bad breeders categories.
Delete'this is now a tired formula of stirring up a shit storm to get a rush to the blog, full of condescending overbearing people'
DeleteHardly, It's a source of education, evidence and impassioned views. The latter usually because people genuinely care about the welfare of their dogs.
If you are offended by any of the comments perhaps they touch a nerve?
There ARE bad breeders out there. Brachycephalic breeds ARE unhealthy and are not in the interests of the best expression of physical health for dogs. There is plenty of evidence available to support this view. did you see the youtube video that J posted on that unfortuante Pug with the people laughing at it struggling to breathe?
Problems like this must be dealt with right away in order to avoid any further health problems for dogs. It is important to take care of dogs in every way possible.
ReplyDeleteOh dear, are you feeling all left out again, is it time to whip up a storm so you can feel important again? Clearly you are.
ReplyDeleteOh and by the way the advice you've reproduced is Bulldog Rescue copyrighted and not Breed Council and is advice given to owners when the weather is extremley hot because it's not necessarily the dogs with the problem it's some of the daft owners who need to be told how to use their common sense. As it is reproduced on your blog without permission please remove it as it's out of context with the reasoning behind it's originial publication
Wrong post, BulldogLady, but no matter.
DeleteAs for the demand to remove it? Now THAT would be a fun court case.
Please, PLEASE sue me.
Ha ha ha bulldog lady is that your only defence for the sickening state of your breed............... Utterly pathetic
DeleteNo Anonymous (strange how you're not able to tell us who you are). Not indended as defence, there is no need for a defence, the breed has vastly improved from what it was when I first came into and a breed and continues to improve regardless of what those that have never spent a minute in the company of a bulldog say to the contrary.
DeleteSue you Jemima - now why would I do that, bearing in mind you have never given me the opportunity to talk to you (as originally requested by yourself) I certainly don't intend to waste my valuable time on your propoganda - because at the end of the day that's all it is, propoganda to fuel your brain washed followers who clearly don't know any better either.
Funny how "daft" owners of other breeds don't need the information! The blog post does not in any way contravene copyright regulations. Sorry...but nice try!
DeleteYes, interesting description 'daft'. BulldogLady - you realise that you have admitted that people who actually buy Bulldogs are daft don't you?
DeleteI fail to see how the Bulldog has vastly improved given the woeful statistics on the Embrace Insurance website.
People who are reasonably intelligent don't need to spend their time in the physical presence of a Bulldog to see that the poor animal is generally in a wretched state. They can read the evidence on this blog. They can look at pictures. They can see videos on the worldwide web for goodness sake. They can also take your word for it that Bulldog owners may well indeed be daft for purchasing them!
You must have taken a beating at school BulldogLady, what an unfortunate name your parents chose for you, but aside from that, what is wrong with you? Propaganda indeed. You clearly do not love your dogs to accept their inflictions as you apparently do, take my advice, read the response to Bijou from me and perhaps you will be able to compare notes with her and together you can let us know exactly how it feels to be unfairly disabled. I wonder how much income you derive from breeding these impaired dogs and it is why you do not wish to accept the facts. Before you criticise somebody using Anonymous, perhaps you would like to use your own name and not some made up nonsense.
DeleteAnnie Macfarlane just how wrong you are about contravene copyrights, perhaps you should ask Ms Harrison about the theft of images she made and how she was about to be taken to court by a very well known American Canine Photographer, about the use of images owned by the KC and Crufts, indeed from many other areas, she will make the claim that they can be used for critic appraisal, however it might be she will need top seek a better qualified lawyer as her use in the past does not come under that, indeed the BBC soon realised her breach of copyright is just one of the reason why they no longer deal with her.
DeleteWell, other than the major BBC2 series we're in the middle of making.
DeleteWell speaking of your new documentary I found a really cool article about a possible eternal youth discovery. Scientists didn't actually find it. But they might be closer to change the aging process. They also found that this could possibly cure certain cancers and even Alzheimer's. In a nutshell scientists were experimenting on mice and they fooled around with the mices aging process... Hypothalamus controls so much. I recommend this as a must read.
Deletehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2318132/Is-key-eternal-youth-Scientists-brain-region-controls-ageing--paving-way-turn-clock.html
Excited to hear about your new BBC2 series Jemima. Are you able to tell us a little more??
DeleteAlso pleased to see that the wonderful Mr. Evans is collaborating with John Bradshaw on a new programme on Ch 4 regarding separation anxiety in pet dogs. A problem that affects such a lot of dogs.
Bulldog lady yet again you demonstrate your arrogance but that really isn't a surprise! I remain anonymous because its my right to do so, no harm is being inflicted to any bulldog or any other living being is it? Why does it irritate you so, perhaps though not as irritating as not being able to breath and move freely or maybe not as irritating as every time you eat or drink you also chew up your chops until you are in agony, shall I go on????...........hmmmm.
DeleteFinally DO NOT assume that I have not spent a moment in the company of a bulldog you know nothing about me, clearly you care very little for dogs and do not deserve the privilege of owning one!
Anon, Bulldog Lady loves her dogs. And she's involved in rescue. I don't much like to police comments but would appreciate everyone trying to keep comments constructive.
DeleteJemima
BulldogLady - if you are involved in rescue it would be extremely useful for people to understand why these dogs are ending up in rescue. I imagine because of their fragile health then it would make rescue extremely difficult work emotionally not to mention expensive.
DeleteAnyone who works in rescue I take my hat off to, regardless of the breed of dogs, as that simply doesn't matter.
If you were able to share any of your experiences that may help some of the people on here to appreciate your experience with the brachy breeds and for us to get a different perspective.
Divorce and New Baby make up 90% of the reasons why a bulldog is being rehomed. Your constant attempts at getting me to tell you how bad this breed is is becoming very tiresome. I would happily share experiences, but since you all decided I was a breeder out to make money I won't bother. Good luck with your pathetic hate campaign.
DeleteJemima, just truly shocking........ As bulldog lady is involved in rescue, a clear demonstration for the love of the breed would be to make real efforts in ending the suffering inflicted on these dogs, the first step here is to acknowledge the problems exist isn't it?!?!
DeleteI'm willing to acknowledge what a challenging job she must have, I certainly couldn't cope with the conflict of needing to rehome sweet defenceless animals, but on the other hand packing them off with their new owners knowing nothing is being done to stop breeding these animals with all their afflictions, still in that respect at the very least there will always be a place for bulldog lady.
I do question how constructive it is Jemima to sit on the fence? Where animal cruelty is concerned my morals and conscience do not allow me to sit in both camps or turn a blind eye.
That's a shame. I was genuinely interested to learn more and it's not an attempt to get you to admit 'how bad this breed is'. It's to help educate people about all aspects of the dog's health and behaviour. After all, they are immensely popular dogs despite their documented health issues. People need to be able to understand all aspects of this in order to make informed views.
DeletePerhaps you could understand that there are some people who jump to wrong conclusions and make wrong assumptions based on their emotions. Peoples' love for their Dogs can them very emotive and on a blog it's best not to take anything personally. It's only words....you can choose to ignore them.
Good luck with your rescue work and will enjoy having a look at your website.
Looking at BulldogLady's website, which on the whole is really good, I did grimace. Not the rescue work of course. That is admirable, extremely important and I did try to donate 10 quid actually but the print function for sending a cheque didn't work.....
DeleteIt's the tone of language related to vets ('Bulldog friendly') - with a promise that they'll remove the recommendation if they are not ' Bulldog friendly' and also links to breeders and litters of Bulldogs. What does 'Bulldog friendly' mean? Are they referring to vets who have genuine health concerns about the breed?
Anon 13:19 makes a good point in that it is still important to acknowledge health problems in the breed as all the 'love' in the world isn't going to make them go away.
BulldogLady cares more about the copyright of that amatuerish advice that she does the content of the blog posts.....kind of tells one all one needs to know really...
ReplyDeleteYes that's me - total amature LOL
DeleteDon't you mean amateur....?
DeleteYou obviously wrote the piece then....
If personal attacks on me is how the followers of this blog wish to conduct themselves then feel free, personally I need to spend my time doing something more constructive for the dogs - utter childishness is all I ever see here. Such a shame as working with me could probably do some good for all the brachy breeds instead you chose to bombard me with insults and unfounded - and quite possibly slanderous - comments that are doing neither the dogs or this blog any favours whatsoever.
DeleteBulldog woman it was you whom first started throwing the sh**te typical playground bully can dish it out but.......
DeleteI for one would be very interested in hearing what you have to say, when you stop defending what is a current catastrophe and produce a dog which is not born to suffer, maybe then you will have earned your place for valid argument. So far the best you have come up with is "they are better than they were" really how? I would have a lot more respect if those of you in the fraternity owned up to the reality of the state they are in and took a stand against the tide, made positive changes for the health and well being of the dogs...........there has been five years since PDE enough time don't you think to produce some real evidence.
It is crazy stupid how popular brachy breeds of both dogs and cats have become here in the U.S. - there are scores of videos and photos on social media sites and youtube, and so many "memes" feature them. Persian and exotic shorthair kittens, as well as English and French bulldogs, seem to be particularly in demand.
ReplyDeleteYou know Beth has a point...I used to come on here and have a rational debate in the hope that Jemima and breeders of Pedigree dogs could have some common ground ....but I simply hav'nt bothered for a very long time because it is now an increasing hysterical rant which serves only to alienate the very people who could make a difference.
ReplyDeleteUnless you engage with and work with those who are making the breeding decisions your views and those of your followers will become an irritating irrelevance at best and a pale copy of the anti pedigree dog agenda served up by PETA at worst.
I find this remark infuriating, Bijou. The brachy problem simply isn't being addressed in any meaningful way.
DeleteThis is how the "debate" has gone so far:
"Your dogs have such flat faces and so many other problems associated with being brachycephalic that you need to take urgent action now to address them."
"No they don't."
"Yes they do."
"Prove it."
"Well there's *this* paper and *this report"..."
"What do they now about dogs? They're vets/scientists or they have *an agenda*."
"OK, well how about *this* and *this* and *this* and *this* and *this* evidence? All we're asking is for some moderation... a slightly longer muzzle... marginally longer legs... leaner body... smaller eyes..."
"But if we do that it wouldn't be a pug/bulldog/peke any more! And, hey, look at this surfing bulldog.. They couldn't do *that* if they have all the problems you say, could they?"
"You can't draw a generalised truth from one or two examples. You have to look at the whole population and proper evidence. And that evidence is categorical.. too many of these breeds are born to suffer."
"Oh, OK, we'll agree to breed for wider nostrils. But we still want the flat face."
"But it's the flat face that's causing most of the problems, not just stenotic nares."
"You must be wrong.. after all, *some* dogs with flat faces are fine; while others with less-flat faces are more affected. I know, instead of breeding for a longer muzzle, we'll look for a gene!
Years follow of more evidence, more reports, more vets speaking out, more operations for BOAS being done, tiny meaningless tweaks in the KC breed standard. The breed clubs raise a few quid for gene research which fails to come to fruition (because it's a completely stupid endeavour - there are thousands of genes involved in the whole brachycephalic package and pinning them down in any meaningful way will take years if is possible at all) . Meanwhile, the dogs are still gasping for breath.
Finally, campaigners snap: "OK, nothing's working. There is too much suffering. We need to call for a ban on extreme brachycepahlics."
"How dare you, you PETA-loving animal rights activists who want every dog to be a brown mongrel. Why don't you try *working* with breeders rather than castigating them?"
That's how it looks from here, Bijou. How does it look from where you're sitting?
Jemima
If the people are alienated 'who can make a difference', why is that I wonder? And who are these people??
DeleteThe old PETA rant tends to get dished up when people can't handle the truth....
Nobody wants rid of dogs do they? Just people's unhealthy attachment to the human artificial contruct of the look of the purebred pedigree dog. Because it's the focus on THAT which is damaging the dogs and alienating the people who I would argue DO actually care about the dogs. They want rid of the human pathological mentality.
Bravo Jemima!
DeleteI have the solution for Bijou. All she has to do, to understand why we are concerned about the health of pedigree dogs in general not just "B" breeds is simple.
DeleteTo understand the disability inflicted on GSDs, bend over, get someone to tie her arms to her legs, and then run up and down stairs a few times. Then the inability to be able to move freely, without pain, will be understood. With "B" breeds, put a paperbag over her head, press her nose up against a window, chewing on a piece of carrot at the same time and run on the spot for ten minutes, thereafter the inability to be unable to breathe easily and the constant biteing of the inside of her mouth as happens every day with "B" breeds will be understood. It's very simple Bijou, deformity causes pain and for breeders to inflict these on "man's best friend" is cruel, wicked and ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY. For the effect of bulging eyes, try sticking your head in the smoke from a bonfire for 5 mins, the dry eye and stinging is so painful you would understand what we are trying to say. Do you get it now? And do let us know how you get on and the effects on your wellbeing. Hmmmm?
Bijou tut tut tut, how wrong you are I have two pedigree dogs and very much wish for all of these breeds to continue, but they cannot be allowed continue to exist while their quality if life is so compromised.
DeleteIt strikes me the only people who refuse to acknowledge their suffering are the breeders, the owners, and of course the multi million pound Kennel Club. The rest of us see the horror that is a dog incapable of being a dog. Who exactly wants to own a dog who can't run in the park, fetch a stick or ball and you need a mortgage to cover the health bills. It sickens me that the solution is so simple breed less exageration, yet breeders are unwilling to embrace change for the sake of the dogs they claim to love and adore.
Say you do ban micro and brachy breeds. What's left for people who want a small house dog? Lets say you want a playful dog that isn't sharp (as eg, the small terriers and miniature pinschers and daschunds). The only option I can think of is the Iggy, and they're not for everyone.
ReplyDeleteAlong with educating people, you need to provide an option that suits their circumstances. That, of course, is why designer dogs have gained ground. But it would also be a very good reason to do what can be done to breed out some of the problems in existing breeds.
Malformed/cute is not the only reason people buy pugs.
One question, though. Does neotony, which leads to flat faces, go together with playfulness? If you bred pugs with a nose, would you loose the silly clown aspects of the breed along with the snorting?
You mean like this...
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Mu8E_ERf7Og
'What's left for people who want a small house dog?'
DeleteWell, perhaps a bit more understanding and a lowering of their expectations. Understand how a healthy dog should actually be allowed to physically exist?
Just because the canine genome IS so malleable, doesn't mean we can do whatever the heck we want with it to suit our own ends. The fall out of that is clear in the health issues that exist today. It's a clear disrespect of nature.
I do understand that size, temperament, looks etc. are so important to a lot of people who don't have the space for a larger dog or even want to exercise their dogs much. But I think it's more appropriate to question these people as to whether they really should be having a dog at all.
I recognise that sounds terribly harsh, but if you look at the state of the health of a lot of the small and brachycephalic dog breeds, they aren't inappropriate questions if we are really going to get to the heart of the issue and improve the mentality of the people involved and ultimately the health of dogs.
The evidence that Pug registrations have gone through the roof since PDE is frightening.
The Italian Greyhound has plenty of health problems of its own. Not least its fine bones make their legs liable to fracture. They cannot run around with bigger dogs (even Whippets), without running the high risk of injury. Far too many spend their lives in crates, to reduce the risk of fracture.
DeleteEuropean FCI Italian Greyhounds are classed as sighthounds, rather than toy breeds, and still engage in lure coursing. The nature of the sport means their bones will have to be stronger.
Italian Greyhounds are considered a specialist breed.
Fran is this *really* true re IGs?
DeleteJemima
From Embrace Pet Insurance:
Delete"Broken legs are very common in the breed, and can cost several hundred dollars to repair." http://www.embracepetinsurance.com/dog-breeds/italian-greyhound
From Champdogs:
"Owing to the dogs’ small frame it can be rather fragile, and may not be suitable for a family with small boisterous children, or much larger animals in the house."
And
"The I.G. is known for front leg fractures – this happens sometimes because of ignorance, ie. not looking after the dog, stairs should be avoided, as should shiny floors..."
http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeds/italian-greyhound
There are plenty of others, if you peruse sighthound forums (e.g. DogForum), and look up Italian Greyhound injuries. It's interesting to read what I.G. breeders advise wrt to exercising the dogs, and what they should and should not do.
I have been keeping my IGs with larger dogs (formerly Great Danes and Greyhounds, now Afghans, Salukis, and Azawakh) for almost twenty years.
DeleteOut of sixteen IGs, I have had two with injuries directly due to larger dogs. Our Great Dane stepped on Poody's leg, breaking it. And one of the large male Afghans landed on Booger's foot after a jump, crushing the metacarpals.
I have had four other broken legs: two due to climbing fences and jumping off (IGs will climb like monkeys), and two where the dog got the leg caught. No large dogs involved.
Squee has been bitten in the face by a rattlesnake twice, but that has nothing to do with his bones or large dogs, it's because he's stupid.
Some lines do suffer from poor bone density and their legs will break with normal activity like jumping off a couch. This is NOT normal, it's a pathology. In a normal IG, just because the legs are thin does not mean the dog must be crated all the time to be kept 'safe'; there are plenty of IGs that lure course (even here in the US), do agility, and lead perfectly normal lives with their larger dog companions. Based on my own experience, I would not consider them 'high risk' for injury just from being around larger dogs or having thin legs. They are at far larger risk due to their fearless attitude and no fear of heights.
IGs do tend to have crappy teeth. I have read that there may be an autoimmune connection to that, which wouldn't surprise me at all, I've lost two of mine to systemic lupus and have an eleven year old bitch here that was successfully treated for masticatory myositis a couple of years ago. Autoimmune disease is a problem in the breed. I have also lost two dogs at what I consider to be young ages (seven and eleven years old) to lung cancer, and had dermal hemangiosarcomas removed from two (eight and ten years old) this year (about 30% of dogs with dermal hemangio will have internal metastasis. I lost a dog to hemangiosarcoma at age fourteen a few years ago.
My oldest is fifteen and blind due to lens subluxation but still going strong.
I meant to add in my previous comment that the IGs which spend their lives in crates, are most likely to be the ones that come from poor breeders/puppy farmers.
DeleteI do remember commentary from Crufts many years ago (before PDE), that IGs were not for owners who accidentally step on their dog's toes!
I doubt there are any IGs which go lure coursing in the UK, but would be delighted if there are, as it suggests a more robust animal from the ones I've seen at Crufts.
Thanks both for your input re IGs.
DeleteAre the immune issues linked to inbreeding/small gene pool?
Jemima
I step on my dogs toes all the time, they are quite good at getting underfoot and don't seem to learn from having their toes squished. I haven't broken any toes yet (mine or the dogs!)
DeleteIGs suffer the same small gene pool problems that most purebred dogs do. Not a lot of diversity there, one patriline and six matrilines (more than some breeds). One particular matriline is heavily associated with autoimmune disease, probably due to inadvertent selection.
There is an implication that break prone legs may also be associated with autoimmune disease. I have a copy of "Multiple autoimmune diseases syndrome in Italian Greyhounds: Preliminary studies of genome–wide diversity and possible associations within the dog leukocyte antigen (DLA) complex" if you want to read it. E-mail me. Depressing reading, though it has some nice explanations about how runs of homozygosity due to close breeding can be associated with disease.
IGs are also prone to epilepsy. I've only had one with seizures, not frequent enough to medicate. He later died of SLE.
whippets , Papillons are a nice breed, low maintenance , intelligent, low odour and generally healthy and most I see are on the larger side.
Deletea lot of the pet bred yorkshire terriers do not have the sharp temperment or small size. Even bedlington terriers & miniature poodles seem nice dogs on the whole . but I personally would not want the hassle of the coat ( do owners realise how much these coated breeds HATE being bathed, dried and clipped every 6 weeks )
On the way home from work yesterday I caught site of the picture of the Pug in the ridiculous hat in a massive advertising hoarding/billboard, see link below:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/420927/WATCH-Three-follow-up-Dance-Pony-Dance-with-Pay-As-You-Go-Pug-advert
I’m getting a bit fed up of seeing brachycephalic dogs touted out as ‘cute’ lures for people to part with their cash. He doesn’t look cute to me, he looks pretty pathetic and shockingly anthropomorphised.
I’m also towing with the idea of stopping my subscription of The Sunday Times. The ‘Style’ magazine seems to have a collection of ‘journalists’ who have mistaken dogs, particularly brachycephalic ones, as accessories. Now I buy the Times as it is supposed to have an educated readership and journalists who are also educated too. I’m starting to wonder about that…….What else are their journalists woefully misguided about I wonder? Because these dogs are born to suffer, not just for their looks it would seem, but to fulfil the rather warped expectations and egocentric nature of people in advertising and fashion too.
Perhaps I should write to the ASA rather than continuing to whinge on here…
It’s like the O2 advert with a cat and a tagline of ‘be more dog’ WTF is that about!?
'Does neotony, which leads to flat faces, go together with playfulness? If you bred pugs with a nose, would you loose the silly clown aspects of the breed along with the snorting?'
Is that really important?
I saw this advert in today's Metro too.
DeleteUnderneath in the advert, in the small print was the following:
'No Pugs harmed...'
Oh the irony...
Owning a small house dog doesn't mean that the dog has to be crippled but by being crippled, the owner doesn't have to attend to it's usually normal needs aka a walk, a swim, a big bone to chew, a romp etc etc. I would love to know what the stats are for these breeds in respect of the people who buy them, i.e. are they single/married, children/childless, male/female etc etc. Because I am convinced that the "baby faced vulnerability appeal" is why the dogs are increasing in popularity. They are fulfilling a need, a loss, that sadly has affected the owner. The Rottie, Filou, is seriously scarey, not because he is savage, but because of his "human facial expression". It is weird. His conformation is out of kilter too, his stance is dropped at the back, over exaggerated, and looks almost GSD like. The Rotties I've known in the past have been bear like, square, solid, free moving, unexaggerated but powerful. I thought the KCs were established for the welfare of dogs and anyone deviating from acceptable practices i.e. breeding fit for purpose, quality of life, no life threatening conditions would be drummed out of the club for life. Not so any more it seems, the KCs are sitting back, raking in the fees from the breeders and condoning these bad practices. For goodness sake, can't we beg them to stop it and take the lead and control these vile breeders who are doing the dogs most importantly and the dog world in general such a disservice.
ReplyDeleteGeorgina,
DeleteI do believe anthropomorphic features play a part but here is an interesting alternative view based on visual communication we have with dogs. Do we find their more focussed attention and therefore possible ability to please us more appealing?
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1744-9081-5-31.pdf
Alexander Horowitz explains about the anatomy and physiology to do with why we find this more appealing in her book 'Inside of a Dog'.
DeleteHumans are good at seeing things right in front of us, because our photoreceptors are centrally located in an area of the retina called the fovea. Dogs do not have foveae and so are not as good at seeing things right in front of them. Brachycephalic breeds, like pugs, that have retinas more like ours and can see close up, tend to be lap dogs that focus on their owners’ faces, making them seem “more companionable.” In dogs with long noses, often bred for hunting or herding, however, the photoreceptors cluster along a horizontal band spanning the middle of the eye. This is called a visual streak, and those dogs that have it “have better panoramic, high-quality vision, and much more peripheral vision than humans.”
Why are brachy and miniature breeds gaining in popularity?
ReplyDeleteIt's common for an older person, or a family living in an apartment, to want a dog that is friendly, small, and playful. A lot of people don't like small terriers, min pins or poodles for reasons of temperament. Poms have too much coat and aren't that playful. If you cross off the shih tzu, maltese, pug, peke, Boston, Frenchie, affenpinscher, chihuahua, Cavvie, Havanese, bichon, and yorkie . . .cross off daschunds and cresties due to different sets of problems . .. you end up with a very short list.
The point is not that physical deformities (including brachycephaly) should be accepted. The point was that diminutive house dogs appeal to a lot of people for practical reasons. Where possible, it is worth trying to breed out deformities. You can find healthy individuals in almost all the breeds Dr Hale is talking about banning. Why not work with what you've got.
It's not as though other breeds are free from problems. Virtually all the giant breeds have high incidences of HD, cruciate ligament rupture, bloat, etc., and short life spans. A few breeds have unacceptable incidences of cancer and short lifespans.
Dr Hale, by virtue of his specialty, sees the worst incidences of bad mouths, and it is reasonable and good for him to warn people off certain breeds cause he has to work on their mouths so often. That doesn't mean that some fraction of these breeds lead normal, healthy lives. That doesn't mean there is nothing to work with if one wants to breed healthy dogs.
Jennifer, people forget about mutts. What is wrong with medium sized mutt?
DeleteThere is way too much focus on pedigree dogs and what people want from a dog. Not what is in the best interests for the welfare of the dog's life.
You are forgetting the human pathology here too. I also feel you are being extremely fussy and ruling out breeds based on your interpretation and experience. If 'a lot' of people don't like the breeds you suggested, why on earth are people breeding them then? Just because you can find healthy examples of some dogs, you can't discount evidence and population statistics. You have to look at the big picture.
I don't understand what giant breeds and their health issues lend to this discussion either. All dogs can/will have potential health issues to do with or without their genetic ancestry. The discussion is related to small breed brachycephalic dogs.
Not everyone wants a mutt, alot want certain breeds for their breed specific characteristics. . Simples.
DeleteAnon. What physical or temperamental? That's fair enough but it's a matter of responsibility! Creating the demand for 'breed specific characteristics', particularly the physical is why dogs are in such a mess. Perhaps peopls should question their motives a bit more when getting a dog.
DeleteWell the breed I like (japanese spitz) which incidentally have a tiny gene pool but luckily are very healthy (weepy eyes and occasional patella luxation.) Have a very specific temperament which ive never found in any other breed as well as being very beautiful but very natural and on the years its been a recognised breed has changed very little.
DeleteA tiny gene pool doesn't bode well for the future health of a dog breed Anon.
DeleteAgain, this is a case of questioning people's mentality and ethics towards dogs. Just because you like and want something shouldn't mean you have a right to have it.
Kenneth Grange lives by 'Form should follow Function.'
And he is an incredibly successful designer of inanimate objects. His philosophy is that if something works extremely well, that overtakes any value placed on its' looks.
Look what we have done to dogs based on our desire for something that we think is physically appealing. Placing form over fitness for function is unethical when it comes to animals. It's a question of morality, empathy and looking at the big picture. And if you want to own a dog simply because of how it looks, then THAT is morally questionable. It isn't a status symbol, it's a sentient being.
We have had this tiny gene pool for a hundred years.
DeleteMay I ask if you have opened the stud books for your breed? (they are utterly beautiful btw).
DeleteDo you outcross every few generations (in the strict definition of the term)?
If you continue to breed within a closed paradigm of gene pools, the genetic bottleneck is inevitable. That's nature, but from the limited information you have provided it still sounds like a fairly 'hardy' breed.
I do get why people are drawn to certain types of dogs. It just resonates with something in us that we can't explain. The point with the brachycephalic dogs is that there is a lot of evidence that these dogs are suffering by their very existence. To continue to support that suffering by breeding these types of dogs is just plainly unethical IMO. People have to recognise the weakness in themselves that giving into their desires for these types of dogs is causing animals to suffer. But that's asking people to rise above their own personal desires, be mature, responsible and empathetic adults and do what's right for the health of dogs. It would appear that's too difficult for some people sadly...
We try to import as often as possible and thankfully as not a popular breed its not bred often for financial gain. I agree some breeds are horrendous but we all get tarred with same brush and a awful lots of us are embarressed by some of the poor speciems that some breeders produce. It is however far better to try to get along and gently encourage rather than alienate.
DeleteAgreed Anon. The only way to lead is by example.
DeleteWell. If we end all brachycephalic dogs. There would be hardly any breeds left. Majority of pedigree dogs are brachycephalic (at some rate or another). Most dogs that would be left is sporting breeds and hound types.
ReplyDeleteHoorah!
DeleteNot really sense most dogs are either Mesaticephalic or Dolichocephalic. It also more applies to dogs that have health or over heating issues because of it,so a more extreme Brachycephalic.
DeleteSome breeds can range from Mesaticephalic to Brachycephalic depending on the breeding.
You do realise that for thousands of years humans coped just fine with a handful of dog types ? its only in the last 100 years that the general public has even thought of owning anything other than a terrier ,sighthound, collie or basic spaniel type.
Deletepersonally my family didn't own a pedigree dog until 1990 ( which we found as a stray & was at the vet constantly from day 1 ) and we managed perfectly well up to that point
Yes we did cope fine. That's when we were comfortable and accepting of a dog being a dog and not a status symbol or accessory or a child replacement. We had time and space to give it what it needed to be fulfilled. It seems that the evolution of the pedigree dog and the aesthetic of it goes hand in hand with our desire for the posession of objects that we find desireable.
DeleteSad.
I have a mutt and wouldn't have anything else. Foolish, sad and immoral to pay hundreds of pounds for a defective and sick animal. Would we pay the equivalent for a car that was defective and constantly in the garage? Possibly if it was a highly desireable brand. I think that's the part of the mentality that some people hold when it comes to pedigree dog ownership. 'I don't care as long as it looks good on me'.
I recommend reading. Anyone.
ReplyDeletehttp://retrieverman.net/2013/05/18/how-to-play-this-game/
Well, why don’t we just end all pedigree dogs. It is unfortunate that there are flat-faced dogs that are suffering from breathing difficulties. As you said in your last documentary we have created dogs that cannot breath, walk or see properly. So why don’t we bring up that discussion a bit further. Why are you just only pinning brachy breeds? Short leg dogs just have as much suffering as flat face dogs. Dogs with overlapping wrinkles can have many problems including visual problems, which is also suffering. Why don’t we just end breeds that have high rates of hereditary illnesses- (in a lot of instances) which is clearly not declining. They all suffer as well. A lot of people love these breeds, despite for poor health. I’m tired of being told to calm down. I’m very tired of being corrected by intellectually extremist snobs. In addition, I am very tired with breeders who are not even making an attempt to improve their breed’s health. Jemima, I also really don’t care if my comment infuriates you either or any of the intellectual extremist that follow this blog. If this campaign is to save breeds that are endanger of going extinct, I think the campaigners should prove it, instead of giving up. Or, you guys can look forward to being labeled as the Peta-lovin' extremist by the resistance. Call me pug fanatic, mutant freak, idiot, what- ever. I don’t care, because it’s going to be written from someone who is an intellectual snob (no doubt). Try to argue with me, you’re wasting your time.
ReplyDeleteQuite agree all those breeds suffer so if their owners truly loved them they would stop breeding them to suffer.
DeleteI am sick of seeing dogs with excessive coats because their owners really want a teddy that moves , not a dog.
Dogs with flat faces because they really want a baby that never grows up.
Dogs with short legs because the owners want a dog that doesn't need much walking ( never mind that the dog might actually want to walk but is trapped in its restrictive body)
I love my dogs and want what is best for them. unfortunately for me that means a moderate coat , head , legs and size.
Of course i'm sad that I will no longer look at the little flat faces & big eyes that have shared my life for 30 years but I'll get used to it.
Retrieverman's link hits the nail on the head ....if this blog is simply some kind of endless foaming at the mouth rant against pedigree dogs and their breeders it will NEVER be taken seriously.
ReplyDeleteit appears that the pretence of working towards a solution has been thrown out the window and nothing less than the end of many pedigree breeds will do ...look at the proposed list of 'banned breeds' Pugs, Boston terriers, French Bulldogs, shih tzus, boxers, lhasa apsos, Yorkies, toy and teacup poodles, Chihuahuas, Maltese, Havanese, Bichons and CKCS most of which are hugely popular well loved breeds...and having eliminated all these breeds which others will be in the line of fire ?....Irish Wolfhounds for being too big ? .....Dachshunds for being too long ? or Puli's for being too hairy ? ... this kind of extreme rhetoric will achieve nothing except to alienate both the public and breeders and will reduce you to a kind of cartoonish one dimensional figure of ridicule which no-one takes seriously any more ! .
Bijou - you simply don't get it.
DeleteI grew up with a long haired minature dachshund who lived until he was 17. He was eunathised as he developed a brain tumour.
DeleteJust because I have had a personal experience of owning a long lived dachshund doesn't imply that dachshunds are OK to continue to breed in their current form!
http://www.farmcollie.com/standard.htm
Deletehttp://www.farmcollie.com/breedingdogs.htm
Yes please! More please! This we like.
Now can we have 'petdog.com' small, medium, large.
God I love science and sensibility.
Given the abuse I am currently getting on closed Bulldog fora, I think it's a little rich for BulldogLady to cry foul re personal insults. But both she, and Bijou, do make a fair point. It's not helpful to label breeders "despicable" or deliberately cruel. Most (and certainly the ones looking in here) absolutely love their dogs so it makes no sense to them, and that's why there are accusations of "ranting" or extremist views - and the gap gets wider. It also gives breeders another reason to not listen.
ReplyDeleteMy view - and the reason for this blog - is that I believe that pedigree dogs at their best are worth preserving - but that there has to be much greater emphasis on ensuring that they live lives unencumbered by the shape (and practises) to which we have subjected them.
Raising awareness about the suffering that some endure has been part of that - and will continue to be part of it as far as I'm concerned. But there does need to be more constructive conversation too.
Jemima
Coppinger R & Coppinger L. (2001) Dogs. A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behaviour and Evolution.
ReplyDeleteThis is a book by Ray Coppinger - a man who loves dogs. He not only loves them, he empathises with them and has a great deal of experience breeding, working and teaching them and also teaching other people about them.
I suggest if you think you love dogs too, then take the time to read it and empathise.
Can I ask have you ever asked how you can help in a inoffensive way? As im sure with your research skills you could actually be of a benefit if high horses were climbed off.
ReplyDeleteJemima,
ReplyDeleteIf you haven’t read this, it may be of interest to you:
“Tail docking in dogs: can attitude change be achieved?”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15084038
Bennett and Perini use cognitive dissonance theory to understand why breeders continue with a practice that empirical evidence indicates causes unnecessary suffering to the animals the breeders truly love. While the article deals with a particular practice, you can substitute in any breeding practice that compromises health and welfare.
Sadly, this article is not open access.
Bennett and Perini do believe that attitude change can be achieved because breeders are by and large people who care about their dogs and would not knowingly do harm to them. In other words, they see themselves, and their practices, as ethical and Bennett and Perini argue that “… ethical disagreements are best resolved by using the person’s own ethics to extract the desired conclusion, primarily by making individuals’ relevant beliefs salient, and by encouraging them to realise that their actions are not consonant with these beliefs.”
They do also acknowledge that accomplishing attitude change is difficult but they provide two concrete examples of where this approach has been successful: with civil rights in the USA and with cowboys who participate in the rodeo.
We are all subject to cognitive dissonance. The challenge is to be aware of it when it applies to ourselves.
Sarah one simply cannot compare the short lived relatively low pain of tail docking to lifelong suffering. Once the tail is gone and healed the dog can continue life exactly as it did before albeit without a tail! The "B" breeds cannot breath freely, as humans with our NHS and access effective medication, can we really imagine what that must feel like 24/7 for an entire lifetime? I see continuing to breed these dogs afflicted in this way as a big fat NO :-(
DeleteYou are missing Sarah's point, Anon - and thank you Sarah for posting this paper. Have long argued that what we need to tackle the problems are social psychologists, not veterinary experts.
DeleteAnon, I rarely argue for a ban because I don't think it's achievable - although having said that I did call for a ban when I blogged the Neapolitan Mastiffs at Crufts a couple of years ago (because they were *such* a disgrace). This didn't result in a ban, but it did result in more action being taken - not least because the veterinary profession really pushed on this breed.
I do actually think that it would be possible to produce a pug-like dog that has an acceptable quality of life. The early pugs - longer muzzles, less stocky, wider nostrils - looked better and I've seen some pug crosses that look very like a pug without the excess that I really do think are acceptable.
I am looking forward to reading the above paper in depth to see what clues it gives re ways to make this happen.
Jemima
I think what I'm trying to say is I see little point continuing to breed these dogs when there I so little being done to improve the problems, surely things will only get worse for these poor dogs?
DeleteI really do not wish to see the end of these breeds but everything in proportion and moderation is surely what's best for our pets
You're welcome, Jemima.
DeleteAnon 16:16, you did indeed miss my point.
I am not talking about docking and cropping. I’m talking about cognitive dissonance. As I wrote in the original comment, “While the article deals with a particular practice, you can substitute in any breeding practice that compromises health and welfare.”
The article is about achieving attitude change in those with an emotional investment in perpetuating a detrimental practice, not the practice itself. The only relevance the level of suffering has to the issue of attitude change is that the greater the suffering inflicted, the greater the cognitive dissonance, and the greater the challenge in overcoming it. So, if you know how hard it is to change breeders’ attitudes to cropping and docking, then you can imagine the scale of the undertaking when it comes to making people understand that they have inflicted a lifetime of suffering on sentient creatures they truly love.
Enjoy the article, Jemima. I hope it is useful.
Jemima, I think if you were aware of the fraudulent mess social psychology is in, you wouldn't want to be engaging them for any meaningful studies, unless you're quite happy using a body that likes to fudge its results.
Delete'For social psychologists, the conclusion of the report is damning, almost apocalyptic:
'“A ‘byproduct’ of the Committees’ inquiries is the conclusion that, far more than was originally assumed, there are certain aspects of the discipline itself that should be deemed undesirable or even incorrect from the perspective of academic standards and scientific integrity."'
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/fraud_threatens_the_integrity_of_social_psychology
Having studied social pscyhology with the OU, I am not all surprised they have been exposed like this. It was the biggest load of codswallop I've ever had the misfortune to study.
Actually Fran, by and large I agree with you. I’m deeply suspicious of social sciences in general. To my mind, they are not sciences; they are an attempt to apply the rigour of science to extremely subjective areas, and to incorporate some real science as well, but the results can be dire because they can be so easily manipulated to satisfy the agenda of the researcher(s). Because of my interest in training, I read a lot about another social science: behaviour. There is some good, helpful stuff, but you do need to approach the information with a highly critical eye and not take anything at face value. To be fair to the researchers, the better ones are aware of this and include many caveats, conveniently ignored by those that use the studies to say, “Science supports X”. Actually, it doesn’t. It’s not science and it is undermined by the caveats.
DeleteHaving said that, for clarification, the article I suggested is not a study.
Behaviour has been labelled as a 'soft science'. The reason being it is subject to so many variables that are not always under controlled conditions and can therefore be subject to manipulation and misinterpretation. It IS subjective to a very large degree.
DeleteBiochemically measuring the effects of body language in humans and how it shapes their outward behaviour (as an example) can provide a more objective approach to this wishy/washy area apparently.
http://www.ted.com/talks/amy_cuddy_your_body_language_shapes_who_you_are.html
Have a look at the above video on TED.
Testosterone and cortisol are hormones that are measurable, subject to laboratory control and are known to be raised and reduced respectively in people who are in positions of power. We know what the biological function of testosterone and cortisol are. We don't necessarily know or understand why these people are driven to be in positions of power, other than speculating that it makes them feel good (internally) aswell as getting rewarded from the environement (pay). It makes sense that a person who is successful and drawn to a position of power would be more naturally aggressive and would have a high tolerance in response to stress, physically and psychologically, reflected in calm outward behaviour. However, how many autocrats, dicatators and downright stressed out bosses are in the world being rewarded today? I'd love a calm and beneovolent 'alpha' boss. Trouble is they seem very few and far between. Is it because insecure peopple are drawn to positions of pwer thinking they may feel better once they have the rewards? Are we rewarding dysfunction therefore. It's all very, very subjective to my mind.... Is it because calm and benevolent people are far too sensible to want to be in charge? There are far more questions than answers.
Social science should not be about making judgements, it should be about looking at people's behaviour and understanding why they are driven or have a compulsion to repeat it. Any organism with a brain or a nervous system will repeat what gets rewarded, either from the environment or from an internal feeling of satisfaction of reward or relief. Of course, dogs are the same. There is always some pay off, you just have to got to know your dog and figure out where the reward is coming from and address the root cause for behaviour modification. Sometimes a lot easier said than done...dogs can't talk and the pay off for them can often be behaviour we find downright inappropriate to us, but completely natural and normal for them.
However, why are dog breeders compelled to churn out sick dogs despite the mounting empirical welfare evidence to discontinue the practices? Because they continue to be rewarded for it. Therefore, if the rewards are removed (no buyers) would that stop them or cause them to improve their practices? Or is it the internal drive to create a 'perfect' looking dog the real cherry on the cake for them? Whatever it is, it's not good. But trying to get a sociologist to persuade them to stop it?? Hmm....
It's too bad some insurance company data can't be pulled into these discussions. I've been googling 'most expensive dog breed vet bills' and come up with three or four different lists. The bulldog appears on all of them, near the top. The Frenchie comes up high on most as well. Beyond this you get mostly large breeds, including BMDs, GSDs, Danes, Rotties, Samoyeds, Akitas....with big items being HD, gastric torsion, cancer. Pugs, Boston's, and miniature breeds in general do not appear on any of the lists as breeds with high vet bills. The Staffies, AmStaff and pit bull appear on one of the lists. http://www.mainstreet.com/slideshow/smart-spending/10-dogs-priciest-vet-bills
ReplyDeleteIf you do the same exercise with longevity data, you will also find that even the extreme-type small dogs have longer lives, on average, than most of our larger breeds.
And if you want to talk about uncomfortable lives, I would put constant itching and arthritis very high on the list of things to avoid.
Jennifer,
DeleteI fail to grasp the correlation between the most expensive vet bills for various breeds and the amount of pain and suffering brachycephalic dogs endure on a daily basis. The latter being immeasurable and unquantifiable as dogs can’t speak of course. Struggling to breathe efficiently isn’t treatable unless surgical intervention is a last resort. There may well be a huge dissonance with owners who think that the cute snorting is a ‘normal’ Pug sound as opposed to understanding that the animal is struggling with respiratory distress.
The breathing, dental and other various ailments they endure do not necessarily amount to huge amounts of procedural repair work or regular supplies of medication unlike say a gastric torsion or cancer treatment.
Perhaps a vet can comment further?
Insurance data isn't very accurate as it depends on the owners actually realising there is a problem with the dog. most people would notice a dog limping with severe hip displasia but many would ignore a short faced breed struggling to breath as that's " just normal for them"
DeleteSome illnesses such as syringomyelia might not be obvious , how many owners would know their dog had a headache because they rubbed their face on stuff ? or that the light hurt their eyes because they where squinting or their neck hurt because they where sleeping at a funny angle.
Dogs like this can live well into their teens with chronic pain the owners don't even notice.
I met a young shih tsu puppy who sounded like it had asthma, it could only breath through its mouth & looked tired but the owners where not concerned with its "cute snuffling " if it had been limping along on 3 legs they would probably have gone straight to the vet
Commenting Anon, as I would like to contribute to the blog replies now and again without being pigeonholed.
ReplyDeleteI'm a vet.
I agree with your last comment. I have seen 3 pugs in the past few weeks with such a big nasal fold that it's shoving the portion of their lower eyelids nearest the nose into their eyes; one adult and 2 young pups. The adult required a third eyelid flap to protect an eye ulcer whilst it healed. I estimated the owners for removal of the skin fold. They're still "thinking about it". As regards breathing; we perform very few nostril-widening and soft palate shortening procedures, simply because there's little point when so often the factors limiting the dog's ability to breathe are the crushed mess of nasal turbinates, the cat-sized trachea +/- underdeveloped larynx; which we can do nothing about.
Hi anon vet.
DeleteThe old triad of procedures for BOAS here in the UK has gone one step further now.
I know that Cambridge University Vet School (and possibly the RVC), certainly do turbinectomy ops. They CT scan first to assess the turbinates. Not all pugs have to have them operated on.
The shortening of an elongated soft palate, opening of nares and removal of everted laryngeal saccules certainly *does* help in many cases but this can depend on how much the larynx has already collapsed, although even in a grade 3 collapse you can see marked improvement.
Hi Kate,
Deletetrouble is, how to you convince owners to go for the whole smorgasbord of procedures, which are more or less elective in most cases, without a reasonably firm guarantee of significant improvement. The dog is (usually) not going to die without them, the owner repeats that "he's not in pain" (technically true). We have a hard enough time convincing people to go for alar widening or entropion surgery alone and they are the cheapest and probably least risky and complicated things. The owner does not expect to have a dog that can run for an hour and manage on a hot day with no problem, they have got used to the noise the dog is making trying to breathe and think "oh, he's just like that". Getting them to sign the consent form for GA that says he might, just possibly, die is a tough one.
In an effort to try and persuade the owners to give their pets some relief from the inherited conditions I would suggest that they do the following non life threatening procedures on themselves. Stuff tissue up their noses to experience the feeling of lack of oxygen, put grit in their eyes to experience dry eye and entropian, make them run on the spot holding their noses so they can only breathe through their mouth to experience how painful the dried out tongue and throat become because of the need to take in long breaths rapidly. The owners would soon learn that a health condition that was avoidable if the breeders had been more open minded, has to be medically addressed to avoid "non life threatening" suffering. These new owners also should be alerted that they can and should expect the breeder to contribute towards any on going health costs caused by inherited conditions.
DeleteAlternatively,
Deletejoin pug social networking groups and offer advice and education to those that are showing concern on issues to do with eyes and breathing and hope that those thousands of other people reading the posts will go away and think and maybe learn and take action to help their pugs where needed.
Here's a quote taken from a pug group last week that has only been set up for 12 weeks.
"The more I read about pugs the more I realise just how many health issues they encounter and at risk from and defiantly if I'd of joined a pug group before getting my first pug I defiantly wouldn't of got one. As much as they are comical loving puglets they really are just built so wrong "
Bit late some may say as many of these people already have their pugs.
Better than nothing I say.
It may well educate people that join the groups who are thinking of getting a pug.
And if it also helps existing pugs get the referral they need to help them lead more comfortable lives then great.
Please keep mentioning it anon vet to any owners of pugs who you are worried about.
It *will* make them think. I can vouch for that.
Brilliant, I wonder if they would consider having posters printed that could be put up in vets' practices. It would be so useful for people contemplating a pug in their lives to be able to see, read, communicate with other like minded people who have experience within the breed and may be able to alert them to health issues. Likewise if other "B" breeds have open forums as above they could possibly do the same?
DeleteHmm, good idea Kate. Right, I am off to the uncharted waters of the online brachy world (to have a little lurk around first - don't wanna get a reputation for hatin' on pugs)
DeleteAnonvet
Well, that was educational. Pugworld (UK site) had good info, but forum doesn't get much traffic at all. Pugvillage (mostly American?) didn't pull any punches, in fact they have a section entitled "Don't Get a Pug" where they are very honest about the extent of potential health problems. Only one recent question on the health board forum about respiratory problems - "Why does my pug sound like this and cough out white foam?" was very well answered by the forum members.
DeletePugdogclub - a UK site - "the official site" apparently - informed potential owners that "You will defend a pug's beauty forever" but the health section makes vague reference to problems relating to eyes, respiration and soundness, then tells you that you have to be a member to get the health articles. You have to be proposed and seconded by a current member. Keeps all the pug-hatin' PDE types out, I suppose. (by which I mean Pedigree Dogs Exposed, not Pug Dog Encephalitis. They are quite proud of their interest in that, but it's the only health condition they talk about).
None of the sites talked about a coherent overall vision and strategy to produce less extreme brachycephalic conformation in the breed en masse.
Anonvet
Anon vet again.
ReplyDeleteSomebody asked "where to start?" with the brachycephalic improvement. I think: with some old pictures and videos. Bet the show winners of 100 years ago would conform to current breed standards - it's all in the interpretation. Need to fix in judges and influential breeders' heads the vision of "the perfect pug"; perhaps add some diagrams as an appendix to the breed standard. Get them looking at lots of pug x mesocephalics to retrain their brains ( I used to think JRTs and Rotts looked weird, even a bit "wrong" with a tail, now I think they look wrong without). Get them looking at all the teeth not just the front ones. Get them listening to the dogs not just looking. Get them studying the results of other breeds' outcross programs and studying the genetic diseases of potential outcross breeds to decide together how to introduce longer muzzles in a controlled fashion without introducing more problems.
Thank you Anon vet. We really need so much more of your shared experiences and professional expertise to help educate everyone. May I ask what your opinion is of the vet checks for the 'high risk' breeds at Crufts?
ReplyDeleteI'll second that
DeleteA Good Thing, generally. I like the fact that they used GP vets rather than specialists to push home the point that the problems weren't so subtle they needed an expert to diagnose. The judges themselves should be doing this to a large extent though. I would like to see judges trained to check for patellar luxation, for example, and make it a routine part of their show exam. The judges' "lip lift"at shows looks prefunctory - I would be ashamed of myself if my mouth exam at puppy vax and adolescent health checks was so un-thorough (and I am checking pups and dogs not trained to behave on an exam table so don't tell me it's difficult. Anyone who has seen a reasonable number of dog mouths can diagnose overcrowded rotated teeth). I also think that judges should have to sit in on breed judging for different breeds - make the GSD judges watch the labradors moving; make the Boxer judges watch the collie judging so they get used to seeing mesocephalic faces to try to shift their brain's idea of "normal" closer to "actual normal". (this "perception of normal" can affect everyone - when I see a slim fit older bitch, I'm so used to the average one being overweight, that my brain thinks "She's too thin...no wait she's proper "normal").
DeleteBtw, although laudable, don't think that the vet checks have a big impact on grassroots public education. I have had 2 clients, ever, comment on them and these have both been Crufts exhibitors. I don't think my non show scene clients have ever said "did you see Crufts on the telly last night?" They might watch the Best In Show judging if it happened to be on TV whilst they were having their tea but that's it. Ditto I have never heard clients allude to the "fit for function" campaign directly or indirectly. I regularly have to explain signs of bloat to owners of setter/Dane/GSD pups, eye ulceration to brachy owners etc and tell them that they should be keeping watch throughout the dog's life. It's brand new info to them -I don't get the light of recognition when I start talking - just "Really? Never heard of it" I think the number of new-to-the-breed pup owners who have done a half decent job of researching the breed's health problems are zero. Ditto behaviour - start banging on at length about dog socialisation in Staffs or recall in the hound breeds or microchipping Sibes and they just don't know why I am making a big deal.
DeleteUm I'm an exception to that rule......I researched my two pedigree dogs fully (new to both breeds) even changed my mind on my first breed choice owing to its poor health status. I contacted breeders, my local kennels and consulted my vet as well as sought info from other owners of the same breed/s not to mention the vast amount of info on the Internet and I don't even have to leave the sofa for that! The mind boggles why people don't bother to investigate what they are buying into!
DeleteWell done, you're in a small minority. OK maybe not zero, but I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of people getting their first pup who have asked me about the breeds they're considering. (this in 10 years in practice)
DeleteI think they probably mean to research it, sort of, then get distracted by all the cute pictures of litters for sale on t'internet. And perhaps go into one breed club site that says the usual vague "like any breed, the Martian can suffer from health probs xyz. Go to a reputable breeder" with no mention of how common each problem is.
I have just checked Petplan for a quote for a Pug compared with a Whippet. The premiums cost exactly the same.
ReplyDeleteHow can a dog prone to dental problems, brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome, cherry eye, luxating patellas, skin fold dermatitis, tracheal collapse, hemivertebrae, invertebral disc disease, Legg-Calve-Perthes disease, hip dyslpasia, and pug encephalitis, cost the same to insure as a breed that has a low risk for heart disease and AI, and moderate risk for hypothyroid and musculoskeletal injuries?
How? Unless the owners of generally healthy breeds are subbing the owners of train wrecks!
have you approached PetPlan?
DeleteIt is unfair to think people who choose to adopt and insure their mutts have to indirectly support the very practice (pedigree dog breeding) they are trying to avoid.
It also costs exactly the same to insure a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel as a Whippet with Petplan. CKCS are virtually guaranteed to get MVD and syringomyelia. Let's not forget the Dry Eye Curly Coat, Episodic Falling Syndrome, BOAS, and congenital deafness.
DeletePeople buying the healthier breeds are definitely subbing the unhealthiest breeds! WHY?
I am going to write to PetPlan. It's appalling.
DeleteIts not just dogs, either.
ReplyDeleteI have never owned a brachy dog; I have a dobermann. But I do have an exotic shorthair cat (basically a short haired persian) who is extremely brachy. I wouldn't have chosen this breed; she was a rescue who needed a home. But she is constantly snorting and wheezing, and has messy eyes. Its so unfair, as she's a lovely little cat, but I just hate the way she has been bred to look like this.
Just discovered this blog a few days ago. I'm experiencing a major, painful paradigm shift.
ReplyDeleteThe U.S. is nowhere near as evolved as the UK on dog issues. The U.S. pug breed standard specifically calls for a "flat" face viewed from profile, unlike the UK or Canadian standards. Shocking. . . .
Three of my 4 pugs are from "top lines" which have national top-20 rankings. My vet bills, meds, and dog related expenses this calendar year alone are over $17,000. Pet insurance in the U.S. isn't a really viable option. I'm intimately aware of all the respiratory, opthamalmic, and dental surgeries discussed here (and many others), multiple times over.
I desparately love my pugs, whether that's pathological as some feel, I can't really say. I fell in love the breed back in the 70's, long before the internet or even a cultural ethos of "research the breed." Things were very different then in terms of education, information, and awareness.
I've been intensively involved with pugs especially in the last 10 years from many different angles-- agility competitions (2 are titled), fostering many rescues (the horrors would fill a book), and then the lure of "showing." I've shown multiple times at the national level, and had hoped to "become a responsible breeder" but (in retrospect) thankfully it never happened, as my "foundation bitch" did not take. I've been involved in breed clubs as an officer/director, spreading the propoganda that "we are the ones who truly love dogs" and are their guardians etc. etc. yet secretly noticing that people at dog shows really don't even interact with their dogs, but rather treat them like sports equipment to be stowed away after use. Very unlike the "pet people."
The paradigm shift I've experienced in the last year in my thinking is almost too much to bear. While I deeply love my pugs, it breaks my heart to conclude that this is a breed that should not exist in its present form. Before reaching this conclusion probably only in the past month, I would patiently explain to any innocent person who admired my pugs that they are NOT a casual breed for everyone, because of their very high maintenance, both emotional and financiay.
I am saddened beyond words to think about what we humans have done and are doing to animals. Really, I am a half step away from taking an AR position and I sincerely do wonder about the morality of "owning" animals as property, etc. (Being vegetarian since age 10 it's not much of a leap). I certainly think competitive dog showing as a sport should not exist. Dogs are not items of sports equipment for our personal greed and pleasure; they are sentient creatures.
I am personally hurt by the characterization of it being "pathological" to be attracted to the brachy dogs, since this happened to me at a very young age and I didn't know any better. "Enlightenment" has been long and painful. Perhaps there is some "pathological" basis to the need to own ANY type of animal?? Just wondering. . .
There is much more I could go on about, but mainly I just wanted to convey that the ideological position I now find myself is an arduous journey still in process.
I do have a question to pose, as I can't find anything specifically addressing it: given that the brachy pathologies are directly caused by this extreme structure itself, is it therefore biologically impossible for an individual to NOT have BAOS disease? I'm interested in any scientific or anatomical explanation of how this could exist (if it in fact exists). Evidence, please, not anecdotes exclaiming how a particular dog runs, jumps, breathes like an olympic marathoner. Had enough of that.
I wish we had a Jemima Harrison in the U.S.
What about Chihuahuas? Unless the Apple-headed variety is just poor breeding, but I have a Deer-headed. (Yes, Appleheads are brachis)
ReplyDelete