Tuesday 30 April 2013

KC admits: "We needed to get a grip"



The KC's 140th birthday is celebrated in the current issue of Country Life. And it contains an interesting quote from KC Secretary Caroline Kisko.

In 2008, the unflattering BBC documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed prompted a shake-up of KC breed standards, a clampdown on producing dogs with exaggerated characteristics and the reinforcement of the message that only healthy dogs should win prizes. ‘We needed to get a grip,' concedes KC Secretary Caroline Kisko. 
This is true enough, of course, but you don't often see the KC admit it in print.  Although perhaps Mrs Kisko is misquoted. After all, she goes on to say:
‘The big concern was dogs with breathing problems, but, although it won't happen overnight, we're already seeing very different dogs coming into shows and we've introduced vet checks.'
Breathing problems were - and are - a huge concern. But, actually, the biggest  - which goes un-acknowledged by the KC in this article and more generally - is the long-term unsustainability of closed gene pools. 

On which note, the KC has just released its third Dog Health Group report (unusually without an accompanying KC press release). You have to plough through quite a bit of back-slapping here -  new DNA tests, improvements in hip scores and how the vet checks are discouraging conformation extremes - to get to the really interesting bit. 

And it's this:

Click to enlarge
"Generally," it says, "our results show that most breeds have an effective population size below the recommended minimum to maintain a sustainably low rate of inbreeding."

This is massaged-genetics-speak for BIG trouble. 

It should be headline news, and should be forcing a review of breeding practices. Instead, it's buried in the Annex on page 30 of the report. 


Note, too, how the recommendations are to reduce line-breeding, manage the use of popular sires and to use more dams and sires (tsk... it's almost five years since PDE and still no real measures in place on these points). And no mention of  outcrossing, which is actually what any sane geneticist without the need to keep breeders sweet would recommend.

I have asked the KC for the reports. They say they are going to be distributed to the breed clubs first, then published online.

They will make extremely interesting reading.

The other interesting quote in the Country Life article, btw, is this one:
However, Mrs Kisko points out that the real problem is the underground issue of puppy farming. ‘Our mantra is that you should always buy a puppy from a KC-assured breeder because the rest we haven't got a clue about. We're working on this with the different governments, but they've all got different laws, which is daft. Current measures against puppy farming rely on local licensing authorities and that's not working. Our scheme is voluntary, so breeders are saying "I want to be inspected". The other difference is that we know what we're doing.'
And, of course, the breeders about which they "haven't got a clue about" include the thousands of  dogs the KC registers outside of the assured breeder scheme.

"We know what we're doing," says Mrs Kisko.

Indeed they do. It's called having your cake and eating it.

87 comments:

  1. I actually agree with them about puppy mills. Their passive acceptance of genetic pain to a dogs life is equal to the active imprisonment and birth machines they make bitches as. Its absolutely horrifying. That said, pushing away their own problems like that is just another cheap trick to get out of a bad spotlight. At least the horrific farms' own apathetic cruelty is visible to those that know how and where to look, but genetics are usually more easy to hide, especially for mental aspects.

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  2. I don't think anyone disagrees that puppy farms are a big problem, SkyArk, but they are definitely two separate problems which the KC keeps trying to conflate in order to cover up the fact their own cruelty. As you say, the cruelty in a puppy farm is so much more visible, which aids the KC in their cover-up, but I wish it was easier to get people (both the general public and those purebred obsessives who do not wish to see) to understand the problem with inbreeding. One mention of genetics, the MHC, or inbreeding depression, and people switch off.

    Lucy

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  3. Oh boy, having just read this load of rubbish the elephant is now a mammoth. Allowing these statements to be made in a public form has cost the KC most if not all of it's credibility. The KC offer no assurance to the pedigree dog buying public. My understanding is that there is no legal requirement on the public's part to actually register their dogs with the KC, it is purely voluntary on their part. The KC are privileged in their position, their existence is purely based on goodwill. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong. If they didn't exist it would, in truth, have no effect on the pedigree dog world. People would continue to breed dogs the only difference would be that the dogs were unregistered, dog shows would continue the only difference would be that they were unregistered. It would just be a different World, that is why I think the KC need to be a lot more respectful and proactive in their dealings with the public and stop wasting time. The dogs from which they derive their handsome income are on a fast running conveyor belt to destruction aided by the KC's lack of action.

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  4. KC Assured Breeders for the Whippet: The majority of them still breed dogs with appallingly high COIs - several had recent litters with COIs of nearly 25% over 10 gens and one was pushing 30%! (From a top-winning and highly respected breeder within the show world.) Another is known to lie about her show results - this may not seem like much, but if she can't be honest about this, you don't know what else she lies about.

    There are are several non-assured breeders who test for heart and eyes, even though it isn't mandated - the same can't be said for the assured breeders!

    How is the Assured Breeder Scheme better? It offers no assurance that you're buying a healthier puppy and can lead people into a false sense of security. Puppy buyers still have to hunt for the responsible breeders within their chosen breed, even though this can take a year or more to find.

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  5. The work on analysing the KC's pedigree data base actually started several years ago, when the Imperial College team analysed the records of ten breeds over the last 30 years - and came up with some horrifying figures showing the extent to which genetic diversity had been lost. Then two years ago it was announced that analysis of the pedigree records for all the KC breeds had begun. By autumn of 2011, the KC said they had the results for the first handful of breeds, one of which was mine, Irish Red and White Setters. Inquiries over the next few months about the availability of the analysis got no reply other than it would soon be published. Early in 2012 the KC issued a statement which received very little publicity, and which since seems to have disappeared, warning that five breeds which all had an effective population size of under 30, were in serious trouble, and needed to develop a strategy for survival, requiring breeding more diversely within the existing gene pool, importing new dogs and OUTCROSSING. Only one of the five breeds, Otterhounds, responded and acknowledged they needed to be developing a strategy. The others appeared to have ignored the warning, and the KC left it at that, although it was announced that work was being continued at the AHT on all other breeds registered by the KC. So far nothing more has been published. So where is all this information about loss of diversity, and where are the plans for doing something about it?
    Can it be that the loss of genetic diversity in most breeds is so serious that the KC hasn't been willing to go public yet? Why are breed clubs not asking for the information? Could it be that they just don't want to know?
    In my breed , Irish Red and White Setters, the effective population size in was found to be just 28. Less than 100 puppies a year are now being registered. But the UK breed club has made no response, other than to say they are opposed to the outcross programme for the breed which has been sanctioned by the Irish Kennel Club, because the UK breed club sees no need for it

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  6. Hi Fran, it all boils down to those who are interested in breeding because they love dogs and those who are money driven. The good ones have always carefully checked their stock and done the right thing by the puppy and the owner. The others are probably KC accredited breeders who ignore everything but have their little certificate on the wall. How somebody can lie about their show results is surely infringing the sales of goods act and misrepresentation. If the KC know this they should expel the breeder immediately it's just another nail in the coffin of the innocent dogs.. our poor dogs, with a body like the KC apparently in charge of their well being and welfare they don't stand a chance.

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  7. KC Assured Breeer Scheme: If there are no BVA/KC schemes for that breed, then the KC do not publish the results of those tests on their website. This means, those breeders (ABS or not) who diligently health test despite it not being a requirement, have no way of advertising this fact. There are plenty of breeds where health checks are paramount (the Pug springs to mind), but there are no schemes for all of the issues.

    Additionally, it means anyone checking the sire and dam of a potential litter, cannot tell from the website what health checks (if any) have been performed. Pet owners also need to know whether the dogs have passed these tests or not!

    It would be so much easier if any litters advertised on the website, had a link to the health tests for both sire and dam. Meaning those breeders that do bother to health test are instantly highlighted and ditto for those that don't bother.

    The KC keeps worming its way out of making it easy and obvious for pet owners to see who health tests and who doesn't, who breeds low COIs and who doesn't.

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  8. Can't people break away from the KC and outcross? Why are breeders and disgruntled puppy buyers putting up with this? Is it really so difficult a task to achieve? If you want things to change then you have to be the change you want to see!

    Easy for me to harp on as I don't breed dogs or buy puppies BUT I am passionate about canine welfare and it all begins with good breeding...but there appear to be people on here who love their breeds and want to do what is best for the welfare of the dog but are somehow prevented from going ahead and radicalising what clearly is a dire straits situation.

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    1. Yes people can cross breed as much as they want, go check out epupz or preloaded most on there are, however it does not mean they are any healthier or need anymore ethically or not for the cash.

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  9. Hi Anon 18:10, in reality there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why people tie themselves to the KC, as I understand it. The whole system of KC status is built on sand and goodwill. People originally wanted to have a benchmark to build bloodlines and it needed to have an authority who would be able to organise and honestly record the information supplied by the public. The KC fulfilled this need and as pedigree dogs became more fashionable and dog showing grew to mammoth proportions the KC grew, and grew and grew. They became more distant from their original reason for existence and ultimately like anything that becomes too big without truly professional guidance they are proving to be less and less necessary. We, the public, have lost our respect and trust and they have lost their way, big time. Margaret's blog above says it all, 30 years has passed and yet the problem has escalated out of control and the KC deem it unnecessary to publish the findings that we PAID FOR by registering puppies etc etc and every right to view and yet the KC have made the decision to treat us all with such disdain. The breeds that have been seriously affected and compromised because of their lack of revelation leaves them wide open for really, really serious criticsm.

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  10. So what is the solution to more ethical and healthier dog breeding then?

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  11. 'This is massaged-genetics-speak for BIG trouble' is a pejorative and emotionally loaded statement Jemima - unlike that from Caroline Kisko which is, as you say 'genetic speak' - but at least scientifically sound. You omit the fact that many canine populations - and wild populations too "have an effective population size below the recommended minimum to maintain a sustainably low rate of inbreeding" but nevertheless they are sound and healthy because line/close breeding does not necessarily result in genetic or structural unsoundness. True unsoundness is automatically bred out of wild population (the unsound die early and do not breed) and it is now unacceptable to cull puppies but careful, sensible breeding programmes can and do produce sound stock. Puppy farmers, of course, are, generally neither sensible nor careful and therein is the core of the problem. There is much to do in the world of pedigree dogs but let us at least try to focus on the real problem. See my articles on PDE, Jemima, breeding and why pedigree dogs look as they do at http://davidcavill.wordpress.com

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    1. David, it is not impossible for an inbred population with a low effective population size to survive. There are certainly examples out there. But the odds are against it. That's why both nature and conservationists go to such lengths to try to minimise inbreeding.

      You are so deep inside the dog world (David breeds and shows Finnish Spitz and runs a Championship Show among several strings to his bow including being publisher of Our Dogs) that you do not see the wood for the trees.

      The writing IS on the wall. The problem is that at the moment it appears to be written in a language that many dog breeders find impossible to understand. Not all, though. David, and may I recommend that you join one of these:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineGenetics-L/
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/k9genes/?tab=s

      These are communities populated by science-minded breeders with a wealth of knowledge. I am sure you would enjoy learning from them.

      Jemima

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    2. Unfortunately, David Cavill exposes himself for the amateur he clearly is with his 'unsound' working knowledge of 21st century genetics.

      Scary that the health and wellbeing of such a wonderful animal is in the hands of people like this. I'd love a puppy, but I just don't trust any of these irresponsible and uneducated breeders, such as this person, to do the right thing for the future of the dog's health. Anyone with a decent amount of knowledge on genetics can see that this person is clueless! I'd really love to buy a selectively and responsibly bred medium sized, short coated mutt!! Now why is that such an unattractive dog to breed I wonder?!

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    3. Get off your high horse and breed it yourself.

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    4. Nah. Far too responsible sat up here on my high horse to start randomly breeding dogs simply because I'd like one myself.

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  12. Interesting comments on outcrossing three weeks ago in Our Dogs by Ronnie Irving , the previous Chair of the KC. It seems he is open minded about outcrossing, and remembers a time when outcrossing was more acceptable


    "The subjects of outcrossing, and its previously more common and then more encouraged version - interbreeding, come up from time to time. Usually outcrossing is talked about in breeds where there is a health problem or where the gene pool has become so restricted that the only way out of the problem is to introduce some blood from another breed. Some people come up
    with suggestions which make certain breed purists see red. I know that the Dandie Dinmont people are upset whenever we suggest, as we have been known to, that some judicious outcrossing to Border Terriers might be a wise move. All I can say is that when this happened accidentally on a few occasions with my mother-in law's Dandies, the resulting progeny all looked far more like Dandie Dinmonts than they did Border Terriers. Even when I suggested to a Norwich Terrier person that back crossing to Norfolks might make some sense for them, I didn't get much of a reception.
    I was nearly lynched when I made a suggestion to some Pekingese people who claimed that there were no Pekingese left in the gene pool which could help to slightly lengthen the faces of the breed. What I suggested was the use of some Tibetan Spaniel blood! Needless to say that went down like the proverbial lead balloon. But if Bruce Cattanach could produce tail-less
    Boxers from a Welsh Corgi cross in just a few generations, just imagine what you could do for Dandie Dinmonts, Norwich Terriers or Pekingese. My reason for raising the issue is not however to discuss health or gene pool issues. My question was going to be one posed to me recently by a correspondent - namely might there be a case in some working breeds to go back to the practice of interbreeding to restore some behavioural rather
    than physical traits? After all, breeds were developed often from quite a wide base. One breed was incorporated for speed, another for stamina and sometimes again another for more brains! Golden Retriever experts often point out the Flatcoated Retriever Ch Wimpole Peter (circa. 1900) whose painting is in the Kennel Club and which is an ancestor of most present day Golden Retrievers. Other Golden Retriever Kennels used interbreeding to improve the speed of their dogs by using a Yellow Labrador. This was
    permitted by the KC at one stage - and probably would be now if they were asked. I am told that the IGL Retriever Championship was won in 1937 by a Haulstone Golden Retriever dog which was only a few generations away from such an interbreeding. I have also taken a look at the KC Stud Book in the 1930s and you can see there just how many Field Spaniels were produced from interbreeding with English Springer Spaniels. Would they have
    survived without such interbreeding - probably not."

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    1. Ronnie is writing increasingly strong/thoughtful articles since he relinquished the Chairmanship of the KC. Don't suppose he likes me much, but I always rather warmed to him. He told me when we were making PDE about the reaction to the idea of a Dandie Dinmont cross (a breed that is pretty much on its knees genetically).

      Jemima

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    2. Alot are not scared of outcrossing, what people object to is being told by people who do not breed or have no knowledge of the breed that they have to do this this and this by people who have no experience or desire to do it themselves.

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    3. Anon 22:04

      Then that is a problem with the breeder's egos then isn't it? Are you saying that dog Breeders are actually unwilling to do what is scientifically and ethically responsible because they have a problem with constructive criticism from people who are passionate about the future of canine welfare but are responsible enough not to breed dogs themselves?

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    4. You don't know what anyone is likely to be doing as I doubt most feel the need to consult a random blog.

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    5. Anonymous1 May 2013 22:04 spewed:

      "Alot are not scared of outcrossing, what people object to is being told by people who do not breed or have no knowledge of the breed that they have to do this this and this by people who have no experience or desire to do it themselves."

      Don't be stupid. There are a number of other animal species that are maintained in open registries, and NO ONE MAKES ANYONE USE ANIMALS THEY DON'T WANT TO USE. I own two breeds that are maintained in registries open to country of origin animals (dogs with unknown background) and no one makes anyone use these dogs or their descendants if they do not wish to. The Chinook outcross project doesn't mandate that any breeder use a dog of outcross descent if they choose not to.

      Any breeder worth their salt can read a freaking pedigree and avoid dogs descended from outcrosses if they choose; breeders already do this with lines that produce certain characteristics or health problems that they wish to avoid. It's called selective breeding, you can Google it.

      Open registries put another tool in the breeders tool box, and that is ALL THEY DO. The spectres of 'all dogs will turn into mutts' and 'breeders being told what to do' is simply the same tired old bullshit straw man that closed registry proponents always pull out of their asses.

      And as for experience or desire, not only do I own two breeds that exist within open registries, I am also a breeder. I breed Salukis and am only too happy to use dogs of recent desert descent, and I produce Saluki/Afghan crosses, which, strangely enough, bear a remarkable resemblance to early Afghan imports and country of origin Afghans.

      How would you like your crow cooked? Or do you prefer it raw?

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    6. Wow resorting to calling people stupid.. Nice!
      The Point I made was you will not get breeders on side by making them feel under the cosh!
      You are the last kind of person I'd pay any attention too when you can't even be polite.

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    7. Anonymous2 May 2013 07:43

      I called no one stupid. I was warning the commenter not to BE stupid, because their comment was nothing but:

      "Alot are not scared of outcrossing, what people object to is being told by people who do not breed or have no knowledge of the breed that they have to do this this and this by people who have no experience or desire to do it themselves."

      Don't telll us what to doooooo. You've never bred dogs so you know nothing! Don't you even suggest that stuff like reading or research into an issue is possible!

      Would you like some cheese with that whine?

      Well, sweetheart, I not only have the experience, I'm a dog breeder, I'm a freaking cross-breeder, I've done backcrosses, and I walk the walk. And I am telling you that the majority of the Pure Blood Brigade is willfully ignorant. Oh, dog breeders lovelovelove science, but not when it tells them something they don't want to hear.

      I could give a rats ass if YOU listen to me. I am here as a breeder that DOES NOT ACCEPT THE STATUS QUO. A breeder that accepts that breeding practices SHOULD CHANGE WITH THE ADVENT OF NEW SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE. That practices based soley on mythology and tradition should not be given the weight and consideration that some dog breeders give them.

      Not every breeder is a whiney little head in the ground fool, clinging to outdated concepts that didn't have a great of reality anyways, spinning excuse after excuse or using avoidance tactics (look! Over there! A puppy mill!) Closed registries are a very modern concept and have as much to do with class prejudice and conspicuous consumption as they do with 'building a better dog.'

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    8. Jess I would like to add a small correction/addition = Pureblood breeders brigade are wilfully ARROGANT! We breed working dogs and mate selection is based on working abilities alone and absolutely no inbreeding, we have pure breeds also but if they do the job well I'm happy to mix um up a little

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    9. Jess.

      Summed it up , beautifully. Your comment about closed registries linked to prejudice, class and materialism is spot on. The egos of these arrogant and ignorant dog breeders are what are destroying the health of dogs. I remember watching 'that bloody woman' who breeds ridgebacks in PDE. If you showed that clip out of context to a bunch of people who understand genetics and the science behind breeding, they may well be forgiven for thinking it was sketch out of some black comedy show......

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  13. Aren't Leonbergers a relatively new breed, can't remember the union but something like St Bernards and Newfoundlands and look how quickly they breed to a type. And what about the Vizla, wasn't it crossed with a German Wirehaird Pointer to produce the Wirehaired Vizla? There must be many comparatively new breeds that have been created from cross breeding. The Field Spaniel we are fortunate to still have. and wasn't there a cross with Sussex spaniels to keep them going too? I seem to remember back in the 70s, they were so few, literally a handful, I'm sure something was done to save them. They became very low slung, heavy bodies so I'm not sure what was used but I have noticed that recently they are looking more spaniel like. It seems to me that if the KC refused to address the health problems, breeders will "do their own thing", disregard the KC, and just get on with things as they need to be addressed for the sake of the future of the pedigree dog. The dogs will be first crosses but will retain their "pedigree" because the ancestary will be known, they will not be mongrels in the accepted sense.

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  14. David Cavill makes a very good point... provided he is talking about rats or mice.

    Is he talking about rats and mice?

    No? Then his point falls apart at the seams.

    This notion that all species are alike when it come to inbreeding is a core fallacy.

    The bottom line is that animals that breed very prolifically and have short life spans (such as rats and mice) can survive a very deep population cut leading to the kind of "genetic bottle neck" that we see with Kennel Club dogs. These prolific and short living species are called "r-selection species".

    Dogs, however, are not an r-selection species, but are a k-selection species, i.e. one that reproduces relatively slowly but lives a pretty long time.

    I detail the inbreeding problems of r-selection and k-selection species using three different animals in a post entitled "Islands of Wolves, Rats, Lions and Dogs " at >> http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2011/05/islands-of-wolves-rats-lions-and-dogs.html

    The bottom line is that there is a reason that the Bible urges people not to fuck their sister and why Cheetahs are on genetic life support due to a genetic bottle neck that occurred with that species 10,000 years old.

    Patrick

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    1. By mammalian standards, dogs are more r than k strategist. Compare dog/wolf to elephant, human, horse, etc. in terms of fecundity, lifespan, gestation period...the island fox populations in the Channel Islands are very small, but populations aren't showing genetic problems. I agree that closed gene pools are a problem with MANY dog breeds, but I also think we should be open to further information taken directly from DNA. The problem is homozygosity, particularly in regions controlling immune response and disease incidence. We are increasingly able to measure this directly, rather than going through indirect calculations involving pedigrees.
      COIs are better than no information. But they don't work where pedigree information isn't available, or where the sire and/or dam are not as registered and they do not factor in the effects of non-random patterns of breeding (ie, natural selection or mate selection by breeders).

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  15. Something so critical that 95% of pedigree breeders seem to forget is that ALL breeds were CREATED not long ago by blending dogs of other breeds or types. Breeds are merely DESIGNS yet they are treated as though they are 'species' that must not be 'crossed'.

    I love Who's Ya Doggy?'s breed guide for how they highlight this simple fact. Each breed description says how the breed was constructed from other breeds.
    e.g. The Golden Retriever, here: http://dogbreedguide.whosyadoggy.com/?x=47, or the Flat Coat: http://dogbreedguide.whosyadoggy.com/?x=48, or the Saint Bernard: http://dogbreedguide.whosyadoggy.com/?x=49, or the extremely interesting story of the Bobtail Boxer: http://dogbreedguide.whosyadoggy.com/?x=4A. The Ridgeback is a 'standardized mutt', for heaven's sake: http://dogbreedguide.whosyadoggy.com/?x=4B.

    Love it! Outcrossing into unrelated gene pools - i.e. other breeds - is entirely sensible and acceptable given that this is how ALL breeds were and are created anyway.

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  16. The genetics of Betta Splendens (the tropical fish) are well known and they are a species that produces dozens of offspring from each mating. You can mate them several times a year and a new generation can be produced in about 3 months. They seem like an ideal species to try out the theory that using line breeding and drastic culling would result in genetically fit, typey breeds.

    The result couldn't be more different. Anyone can see what inbreeding does to their lines in only a few years, and it's not good (generally weak immune systems, poor color and finnage, behavior problems and low spawn numbers). Betta breeders regularly outcross to unrelated lines, different breeds, and sometimes to completely different wild-caught species. Anyone refusing to outcross would probably be considered an idiot. It often bewilders me that dog breeding has such different attitudes.

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  17. Anon 00:19

    Fantastic post. That 95% cohort of dog breeders would make a fantastic sociological study in themselves. All dog breeds today descended from the Village dog! The ancestry of all breeds today are what we call mutts. I love Patrick's comment about the Bible too. Tee hee! Not that I would personally use that book as a reference source - it also forbids people from transfusing blood - we now have science to thank for understanding the blood group system and for allowing us to use transfusion serology to save lives. Progress! But it's still correct about leaving your sister alone...

    Professor Steve Jones is concerned about certain communities in West Yorkshire who keep on insisting that their family blood 'must be pure'. This is a cultural and religious mindset that is very difficult to change in our own species - it would appear that some dog breeders inflict that warped logic onto their 'beloved' dog breeds too, despite the fact that THEY certainly wouldn't dream of shagging their mother. Incidentally, can you think of a worse insult to another human being as mother f++++r??!

    It's the mentality that has to be changed if our dogs are going to have any chance of living longer and healthier lives.

    Being afraid of outcrossing? What a strange way to describe that natural process. Who/what are you afraid of I wonder? having a healthier dog that may not look exactly as some breed standard defines? But it is a fair point that we don't win people over by insulting them, tempting as it is when your patience is hanging by a thread.....So Anon 07:43, what is it going to take to get you to do the right thing for dogs as a species and not as a breed?

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    1. Well for a start you don't even know what kind of breed I have, also you go on and on about outcrossing I can tell you for a fact the breed I have do not mix at all well with other breeds amd keep well away and know of many instances when in season bitches have spent their whole seasons giving the death vibes if their roommates of other breeds so much as look at them. Also if dogs do not like to mate their mothers then someone needs to have a word with my dogs and tell my lad no way can have loveys with his mummy. :p

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    2. What breed is this, Anon?

      Jemima

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    3. Anon, it's not about whether the dogs enjoy the mating process with their mother (or 'loveys with mummy' as you charmingly describe). It's the fact that responsible breeders of dogs shouldn't advocate that particular siring if they want to ensure the future health of the dogs.

      What breed of dog doesn't mix well outside of it's own breed? Perhaps you haven't socialised the dogs in the critical period to ensure that they are comfortable around all other types of dogs? Is it a guarding/protection breed?

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    4. Hhmm I'm pretty sure it was stated dogs avoid mating relatives, you lot flip flop your arguments to which ever way the wind is blowing.
      My dogs are fantastically socialised to tolerate all dogs they just Choose not to get to cozy outside their breed, also to answer no they are not a guarding breed they are a medium spitz breed.

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    5. Secondly charm isn't something you have demonstrated in your posts so thought I better drop a level to a language you can understand.

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    6. Anon, charm in this context is an adjective, not a language. We have been communicating in English all along....

      Clueless much?

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    7. Be careful there Jemima not to suggest that those that breed livestock do not care about animal husbandry and health and welfare! Btw I have heard dogs referred to as livestock many times at dog shows by their owners :-/

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    8. The owner of the medium sized spitz.... A bitch in season on the right day and an entire dog, whatever the breed, will mate. I cannot believe that you believe that a stud dog, or any able dog, and bitch will deny themselves a mating. Dogs live in the moment, they have no concept whatsoever of relationship. They are dogs, not humans. You appear to keep your dogs well and safe from mis-matings, but there is absolutely no way dogs will hold back when the opportunity arises. Years ago some friends of mine bought two poodles a brother and sister. I was very concerned about it because I knew they were not particularly careful. Their sheltie had bolted when out for a walk and 63 days later produced a litter. I had warned them to be extra careful with her at this time but they still let her off. They were amazed, I was disgusted with them and they knew it. So when they bought the poodles I laid down the law and suggested strongly that one or the other would have to be neutured. Their response, "but Georgina don't be silly, they won't mate, they are brother and sister". Well, a year later, two puppies were born and guess what "they were amazed". They were so cross with the bitch for being "dirty" that they gave her away to a friend. They didn't remain friends of mine. Dogs do what dogs do, to suggest otherwise is unwise and irresponsible.

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    9. Hee hee hee Georgina I thought the spitz persons comment was hilarious - "my dogs do not mix well with other breeds" sounded like some upper class tosh......denial anyone?

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    10. Georgina- sometimes i think that because we are so familiar with dogs, some people are actually de-sensitised to understanding that they are a separate species, with their own nature and crucially, neurobiology. Yes, they have a mammalian brain and experience emotions and are capable of attachment and even love (dopamine, oxytocin). But as you say, they are not rational beings. They aren't capable cognitively of thinking, 'that's my sister, Therefore, I shouldn't have sex with her'. People who are ignorant of their behaviour and actual cognitive capabilities inflict some shocking anthropomorphism on them.

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    11. Seriously you show me where you gain your knowledge that all breeds mix well with others then please oh expert of dogs.

      Delete
    12. Spitz owner......seriously, what planet are you ON?

      On the one hand you say that your dogs are fantastically socialised with ALL dogs, then you say they don't choose to get 'cosy outside their breed'. What on earth does that even mean? Are you implying that your dogs have the cognitive ability to recognise breeds? and then choose NOT to like them based on that?

      Christ on a bike....

      Delete
    13. Georgina stated - "A bitch in season on the right day and an entire dog, whatever the breed, will mate. I cannot believe that you believe that a stud dog, or any able dog, and bitch will deny themselves a mating."

      This statement you have made is patently false, Georgina. Perhaps you are inexperienced in breeding and are just passing on wrong information you have read.

      I have no stake in the conversation you are having with the Spitz owner, but will correct you on this fact.

      I, and many others, have witnessed females AND stud dogs refuse to mate. I own a female who pair bonded with one male and then refused to mate with a chosen stud through her full season - twice. She had successful matings and litters before and after these refusals with her chosen 'man' but he is the only one for her. This is not ordinary but it is also not extraordinary.

      This female is my third generation. Her dam and granddame displayed none of this choosiness, but do not be mistaken . . . dogs can be choosy. I have an acquaintance with a choosy male as well.

      Delete
    14. Of course dogs can be choosy. They are social animals. They certainly aren't going to like or mate with every dog or bitch. The intention made by the spitz owner was that her dogs some how were able to mentally determine that they only liked dogs who were from the same breed. Scent, Pheromones, biochemistry and neurochemistry will be at play. Pheromones are incredibly important for selecting mates with healthy immune systems. Given the fact that a lot of pedigree dogs are disease ridden, perhaps they are detecting unsuitably and unhealthy mates by refusing to breed?

      Delete
  18. "Puppy farmers, of course, are, generally neither sensible nor careful and therein is the core of the problem." Says David Cavill.

    In that case, when are the KC going to stop registering pups for puppy farmers?

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    Replies
    1. I guess there needs to be a legal, non-emotive definition of 'puppy farmer'

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    2. non emotive description of pup farmer = anyone breeding for profit not health. Thousands of them out there many KC reg.

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    3. Not my definition of puppy farmer. Why should you have to lose money to be a good breeder?

      For me, a puppy farmer is one that breeds puppies like livestock.

      Jemima

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    4. With thousands of dogs being PTS in UK yearly, any responsible breeder will have client waiting list for pups. They will breed OCCASIONALLY, make sure all health test are done and have good results. They will not be churning pups out on a conveyor belt system month after month.

      Therefore they won't be making lots of money.

      Delete
    5. My definition is of apuppy farmer is a person or organisation that places profits above welfare.

      Delete
    6. Oops posted a reply to this somewhere else on the blog!!!

      Delete
    7. A reputable breeder will health test their stock (whether it's a requirement or not); do their best to avoid problem lines; breed dogs with COIs lower than the breed average (preferably <6.25%); vet puppy buyers so the puppies go to good homes; keep in touch with puppy buyers to be kept up-to-date with any health problems so they can avoid breeding from affected stock; give lifelong support; insist the dog is returned to them at any time if the owner can no longer look after it (so their dogs aren't the ones clogging up rescues).

      There are surprisingly few breeders who meet this criteria, yet the majority would be appalled if you referred to them as BYB! If they don't health test, take care in placing their pups and will take the dogs back at any time, how are they different from BYB?

      Delete
    8. By most people's definition (large volume commercial breeders) the Kennel Club do not register puppies from Puppy Farmers. Any breeder who registers 5 litters a year with them has to have a council licence. The coucils inspcet breders and wont issue licences to puppy farmners.

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    9. Anon 22:24 ... I'm afraid you're mistaken. The councils DO issue licences to puppy farmers and frequently DON'T inspect them through fear of threats of violence. The KC won't register the numerous crossbred puppies from these places but as long as both nominal parents are registered and fulfil the other criteria then their offspring WILL be registered.

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    10. If the councils are issuing licences to puppy farmers then thet are breaking the law and you should bring it tio their attention or even perhaps sue them yourself. Yoiu seem to think that the Kennel Club has more poweer that the law? All tyhe KC do is to register dogs, other than that they have no power at all

      Delete
    11. I don't thnk you understand the nature of a breeding licence, Anon 21:22. Anyone who produces 5 or more litters in any 12-month period is required to hold a licence from the council. These litters could be raised in the most perfect circumstances from fully genetic tested dogs - in fact could be the epitome of perfection. Equally they could be produced in filthy conditions from back-to-back matings and be hugely inbred and riddled with ill-health of all kinds. Or they could be somewhere in between. All these scenarios are licenced commercial breeders, which some would call puppy farmers. It's not against the law for councils to issue licences to them, nor is it the KC's job to inspect them; that's the responsibility of the councils, and is generally simply rubber-stamped with only the most cursory of checks, if that.

      Delete
    12. Recently licensed commercial premises in Ceredigion.

      Nantycastell is licensed for 78 breeding dogs. Dogs are kept in an agricultural barn, a puppy farm by anyone's standards?

      Dogs being bred are Bichons, Yorkies, Daxies, Dalmation, Cocker Spaniels, Cavaliers, Westies, Schauzers, Scotties.

      Recent pups registered with KC are....
      1 litter of Cavaliers
      1 litter of Miniature Dachshunds
      1 litter of Cockers

      Delete
  19. Mmm, "why should you have to lose money to be a good breeder?" No reason really except that I very much doubt that anyone who breeds a litter of pedigree puppies, say three times a year, is going to lose any money. I understand that the KC find it acceptable for breeders to produce five litters per annum and the breeder is called a "hobbyist breeder". A small breed will produce less puppies but charge higher per puppy, a large breed will produce more puppies and possibly a lower charge is applied to each puppy. So five litters a year small breed, average three puppies per litter at £850/pup = 15 puppies x £850 equals nearly £13k per annum! Large breed say six pups per litter at £750/pup = 30 puppies x £750 equals £22,500 per annum! And even if only half of these puppies were bred p.a. that is still a very healthy "unearned tax free" income. And before everyone shouts me down "but we have overheads, vet fees, show fees, food, etc etc", dog showing/breeding is supposed to be a hobby, just like fishing, and how many fisherman would expect to earn that sort of income from their hobby? If they claim these outgoings against the reason for breeding puppies in the first place, then I would argue that they are running a business, puppies become stock which then becomes breeding puppies for profit to offset their "losses" food, vets etc etc. If that becomes the case then all licensing, insurance, council permits are presumably in order. I personally don't think that this is acceptable. In my day I had a litter if I wanted a puppy to show on, not to fill "order books" etc, that is immoral. It is also why breeds have become saturated genetically because a small number of breeders have flooded the market with their "invaluable bloodlines" to the detriment of the breed overall. It really is time that the KC stepped in and limited the use of stud dogs and brood bitches and their breeders. Five litters p.a. is outrageously immoral. But, of course, the KC, like the registration/transfer fees from all of these puppies so they will be very reluctant to stop the income stream. Because like the greedy breeders they too are money driven and the dogs are just their "goods in stock" too. They, breeders and KC, are fast killing off the golden goose which doesn't matter to them, but to those of us who love and enjoy our dogs, as non profit pets, can see an end to the pedigree dog as we know it. The KC must have ways and means of identifying puppy farmers, there must be a system surely that could be devised, someone must have a brilliant,simple system that could be used, similar to BASCO etc.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Fewer and fewer people can afford a life of leisure. Mums have trouble staying at home for their children, much less for a litter of pups. I'd say that having a smallish kennel of well selected, and well cared for dogs, and selling on a dozen or two pups a year is a great and proper lifestyle for a semi-retired person or a stay at home parent who has a bit of land on the outskirts of a metro area. Whats so sinful about such people earning a small income, enough to pay costs and earn a minimum wage sort of salary, from raising quality pups. I can assure you, breeding dogs requires much greater commitment than fishing or stam collecting, and if we rely on hobby breeders working for the love of it alone, the cream of the crop, re dog breeders, would disappear.

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    2. Hi Jennifer, I hear what you are saying and you do have a valid point. I don't know if you have ever bred a litter of puppies and if you have you will know the comittment it takes and the expense. When I had my first litter (of only 5 or 6 bred during 40 years) I was advised that I should be prepared and able to keep, or have back, any puppies/adults that either don't sell or the home sold to has a problem and can no longer keep the setter. It was very good advice. I was fortunate that it never happened and all of the people who had puppies from me kept in touch until the setter passed on. It was very gratifying for me. What worries me about your comments is that it would not be undertaken for the benefit of dogs, the litter would be bred for money, "a small income, enough to pay costs and earn a minimum wage sort of salary". If you read my blog about the possible income from breeding dogs is in no way a minimum wage, it's a huge unearned, tax free income. And if you take it to the next level, how many semi retired etc breeders do you want out there, flooding the market with puppies, the pet market cannot sustain the overbreeding now, please don't advise others to join in. There are all sorts of regulations that should be met if one is running a business, dog breeding is a serious undertaking. And it is this exact lack of comittment of a serious undertaking is what makes puppy farmers, byb, and people who churn out puppies for profit. I don't understand your last sentence, sorry so can't comment

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    3. Wise words Georgina. There are too many dogs in rescue, unwanted and unhealthy.

      We need to breed fewer dogs and make sure we do it for the right reasons. The health and welfare of the animal should always be the primary concern.

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    4. We need fewer inbred dogs, fewer oops puppies, fewer dogs bred without regard to health and temperament and fewer dogs bred for exaggerated features. I'd say we need more dogs bred by people who apply knowledge and resources to produce healthier, better adapted dogs. If a breeder is doing the right things, I would hope they are making enough from their investment that they can afford to keep going...and I hope they are producing enough pups to begin to make a dent in the large demand for healthy pedigree dogs. If someone goes to all the work and expense of setting up to produce pugs who can breathe properly (without sacrificing the lovely temperament that makes people love pugs), I hope they will be in a position to be able to provide pups for many people who want a pug, but don't want the wheezing. Likewise for someone who invests in the outcross / back cross that will be required to put various unhealthy breeds with limited gene pools on the right track.
      I have bred dogs. I have known many breeders. In my experience, the best breeders have several dogs/bitches, and have long waiting lists for their pups...they do it with love, but they aren't going broke in the process.

      Delete
  20. Georgina I couldn't have said it better myself. BASCO could easily adapt to suit dogs, it is invaluable for livestock, the ability to check screening, pedigree and other data before you even consider reproduction, well surely it's a no brainier????

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  21. At the moment the Kennel Club provides a list of ABS breeders with their breeds and contact details, and also a separate data base for Mate Select, including COIs, and a health results finder for individual dogs , where one can also find how many puppies a stud dog has sired. It wouldn’t be difficult to bring all this data together on one accessible site, so that one could look up a breeder /affix and then get information about every litter they have registered, number of puppies , dates of birth, numbers of progeny for sires and dams, health test results/status for all breeding stock and their progeny, COIs etc. Info about whether they are a licensed breeder and when last visited by the ABS And the possibility to access pedigrees online. This would make it much easier for a prospective puppy buyer to check on a breeder and the dogs they are breeding from, as well as distinguishing the occasional and hobby breeder from the higher volume commercial breeder
    They already provide the average COI for each breed, they could also start to give the effective breeding size of the population for each breed
    The KC already have ALL this data , it only requires assembling it all together on one accessible site ----- and the will and the courage to make all this publicly visible

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Perhaps we need to lobby the Kennel Club and point them in this direction. But it is worrying that we, as dog lovers who show or have shown in the past, can come up with ideas, yet the KC seem to be totally ignorant or unwilling to instigate a health database for each KC recognised breed. It would be so beneficial for pedigree dogs and their new owners. As dalriach points out, with their knowledge it could be so comprehensive, and the British KC could be the first to spearhead a database and they could even make money from it because they could patent it and sell it on. But they better be quick because unless they become proactive people will stop using their services and they will become extinct, just like the dogs they are supposed to be protecting. I just have pet dogs who are not shown but in the past I loved showing my Irish Setters (nearly 40 years, only 5 or 6 litters bred during that time) and it would be good to know that this past time could continue into the future with the help of the KC not despite it.

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  22. Interesting that you raise this thread Jemima but when you have calls against local council granting licence's for HUGE puppy farms you seek to ignore it why is that???? Maybe not got the glamour of the consant stab at the KC, the almost 'banter' you seek to have with them these days, is this help any breed at all, are you really making changes in 'unhealthy breeds' are you indeed getting anywhere with the KC, from where I'm standing not much has changed by any stretch of the imagination - the 'occassional' breed club has 'maybe' employed some ethical breeding practices and mandatory health testing, but in reality you have to ask are they simply playing lip service? Not the money in publicising puppy farms? DO you really care about healthy breeding of dogs, if you did you would at the VERY least add the following link right at the top of this blog: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=569353469764459&set=a.447838248582649.104112.446313758735098&type=1&theater

    Why won't you publicise the local councils authrourising planning and licences to a 78 breeding dog puppy farm??? I would imagine there will be no consideration for health, inbreeding, outcrossing or indeed crossing inappropriate breeds in that 'establishment'. The local councils need to be 'outed' and you have been asked several times by several people to begin this process of getting to the media but you still seek to ignore those people's pleas - if we all bury our heads in the sand and concrete over the sandpit IT DOESN'T GO AWAY it means that more dogs suffer needlessly as those in power fail to act, if you really care - show it and PLEASE HELP - or will this thread be once again ignored? and not granted permission to allow EVERYONE to see - do we still have that power without responsibilty Jemmima??

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  23. Ummm very valid point about puppy farms and agreed action is needed but by government! this blog is about health, genetic and conformation issues in PEDIGREE dogs, which incidentally are being bred by those whom like to think are the very best breeders......................

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  24. The Sandringham Kennel was established in 1879 for a population of 100 dogs, though the present Queen only has 37 dogs there (as best as I can tell from a quick google search). Does that make the Royal Family puppy farmers?
    I read this blog for information and debate about quality...not quantity. Large kennels are nothing new. Some are excellent. Some are awful. The fastest route to correction of the many problems that have come into the breeding of pedigree dogs will come through larger breeders who do things right. Breeders who produce a total of 20 to 30 pups in their lifetime are a drop in the ocean, especially if they are careful to see that none of the pups they sell are used for breeding!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Jennifer, Sandringham is a working labrador kennel, I doubt it breeds indiscrimenantly and assume that any puppies bred would have high demand because of the kudos of their breeder!!!
      One of the biggest changes in the last 10 to 15 years in dog showing/breeding has been the worldwide recession. From initially being an elitiste sport in the 1800s where only gentry competed to then becoming a past time for the masses post war, to arriving at the situation we have today. The situation we have today is ironic really. In the main the people who are still showing, were doing so 40 years ago, they quickly established themselves because they were already comfortably off. The rest of us bumbled along, enjoyed the day and the dogs unaware of the true politics of showing. We showed when we could afford it, we had a litter when we could afford it and just wanted to keep a puppy, whereas the well off fraternity, showed at all and every show giving them wide exposure, bred when they wanted and because they all became "friends" they sold their puppies much more easily than those of us who rarely bred. Any club litter lists became their own shop window, they regularly had litters and if there was an enquiry for a puppy, whoever was controlling the list would recommend their puppies above the likes of me and mine. We were an unknown quantity and not in the "circle of friends". So we fall by the wayside taking our genetics out of the pool because we can no longer afford to pay such expensive entry fees, finance the cost of a litter and just drop out of the picture. However, the "well offs" add to their original finances, can still afford to show and breed and the genetic pool reduces more and more, by this time the "wos" believe that they truly hold the future of the breed in their hands, after all if they don't breed, who will, and they would rather sell their puppies and bank the money than let one of their "friends" get in first. It all begins to stink a bit and because of the puppies they have bred, the money they have made, they are the only ones who can afford to show, so we've gone full circle and again it is only the elite who can afford to participate in showing today. Round and round we go, the genetic pool circling ever downwards, but the "wos" are coming to the end of their showing days, so why should they care, they've had the dogs, they've had the glory and most importantly to a lot of them they've got the money. The rest of us can go eat dirt, they believe they've only done good for the breed whereas their selfishness has all but killed their breed off. There are no larger breeders who do things right, diversity i.e. small pockets of genuine breeders historically has what kept breeds alive, different views, different bloodlines, that is what is needed, not some power crazed biggy who turns out puppies just because they can.................

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  25. Well, anon 21:53, there is serious food for thought. Jemima clearly is not ignoring it otherwise she would have disallowed your blog to appear and the fact that you scan PDE is interesting too. Anon 00:34 rebalances it with her statement and that too is undeniably valid.

    If you have information about the councils concerned and I too agree that they should be hammered, offer it up and maybe we could organise an epetition and push it to the Min of Ag or whichever is the correct Gvt body. But is the MofA still offering grants to farmers to diversify from food production to breeding dogs because therein might be a huge pitfall. Breeding dogs, allowing people to breed as many and as often as they like is what is causing the main problem with regard to the welfare of dogs in general, regardless of their background. The KC need to be hammered until they become proactive and are seen to "earn" their healthy existence from dogs by pressing government to stop these establishments. The KC can wield huge power and force if it wanted to, it has huge financial resources and if it really, really wanted to help dogs it could, it just appears not to want to get involved in politics. The Gvt will be aware that there is a lot of disposable income generated from dogs and that the people involved will have a political worth so if the KC pushed then the Gvt would want to try and hold those voters and would concede that something has to be done about puppy farming and the atrocities acted out in those establishments. They would also address the very worrying situation of the unchecked puppies coming onto these shores as "commercial goods". These puppies could be carrying rabies and goodness knows what and the effect that those illness on the human population alone, could bring the NHS to a stand still. Never mind the terrible, cruel state the puppies are in when they arrive. It has to stop.
    So 21:53 until the KC want to become involved and do the right thing by the dogs, dog farming bashing will still be just a word on a page until we dog lovers have some power behind us to remove them from society and that power is with the KC.

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  26. I think there may be more cockers than Labs at Sandringham nowadays? The Duke of Edinburgh apparently likes cockers

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  27. If that's the case he's the man for me!!! I too have a little working cocker, Phoebe, and she is adorable. Pretty, intelligent, funny, smelly, hairy,loves filthy dirty water, and deep wallowy putrid mud pits, deer poo, but regardless of all this she is an absolute delight. What are lua dalmations by the way?? I have a 14 yr old rescue dally who I rescued when she was 8 years old. I don't have any paperwork obviously, but it would be interesting to know about it.

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    1. Georgina, LUA dalmatians are the Low Uric Acid (also known as NUA - Normal Uric Acid) dalmatians resulting from the crossing of 3 bitches with a pointer in the US some 15 generations ago. The LUA ones from litters (they require DNA testing at a few weeks old) are free from the mutation which predisposes dals to developing urate stones in their bladder or kidneys.

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  28. With respect Georgina Jemmima has been asked by several people to publicise the local councils granting licence's for these puppy factories. The media always gives a 'lame' IMO stance of " don't buy from a puppy farm" whether pedigree or not, but no one seems prepared to 'out' those councils or indeed councillors whom authorise such operations, who incidently mainly seem to be based in West Wales the latest is Ceredigion, last month it was Carmarthenshire.

    There is an organisation C.A.R.I.A.D whom is a conglomerate of mainly local rescues to those areas whom are trying and trying and trying to get someone interested if you believe these aren't breeding pedigree dogs then think again it is not all 'doodle' types coming out of these places... the 78 breeding dogs included beagles, bichon frieses (sp?) and I believe West Highland Terriers - the welsh assembly has been contacted by many and varied people as has the national rescues, the local and national press, in fact anyone who has shown a genuine interest in dog breeding and health - NO ONE seems prepared to take it on, is it fear? or just not enough meat ( altho are 78 dogs going for meat?!) to the stories??? - there will be no consideration for health or welfare indeed these dogs carn't even be exercised properly... I do hope Jemmima that by publishing you are prepared to investigate further? I thank you for making it slightly more public on here and can only hope you are prepared to contact CARIAD and gain the facts with a view to being able to act.

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    1. Anon, my "brief" is very specific - health and welfare problems caused by conformation and inbreeding.

      Puppy farms are a huge problem, but not - in the main - for this blog. We did, in fact, have a puppy-farm sequence in PDE2 (from the angle that the KC was registering puppy-farm dogs) and we worked with both C.A.R.I.A.D and Puppy Love on it. In the end it was cut - very upsetting for the puppy farm campaigners (and for me). There were three reasons - it was an offshoot from the central issue; we were very tight for space and also there were some legal issues around standing up particular claims as Carmarthenshire Council refused to release some vital info.

      As it happens, that info is now going to be made available thanks to C.A.R.I.A.D campaigning. Too late for PDE2, but if it reveals what I think it will, I will certainly blog it.

      Jemima

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    2. Thanks anon 21:38 Cariad, doesn't that mean much loved in Welsh? So very appropriate under the circumstances. Again JH has displayed your blog and her response is quite clear about the ramifications of undertaking such a battle. Her background clearly displays that she is no body's fool or is chicken in the face of adversity. But she is a young woman who has a life to lead and is doing her best, otherwise you, me, she and uncle tom cobbly wouldn't be discussing the damage being done to the dog world overall, both here and internationally.

      Again I would point my finger very firmly at the KC. They have taken money for the registration of these poor puppies, they have probably ABS'd them and taken the money for that. They are and should be seen to be the guardian's of the dog world, in whatever guise it takes. Jemima cannot shoulder that responsibility, would you? JH is better placed to do whatever she can from this side of the bars, it would be impossible if she was taking a holiday at her Maj's pleasure.

      The KC know about Puppy farming, bybs, laboratories etc etc, again I will say they have the power, influence and finances to take on the Gvt/Local authorities. We don't but if an epetition was put in place and presented to our local MPs, Councils, Gvt then collectively we would have some influence.

      I understand and feel your passion for these dogs, as I am sure JH does too, in fact everyone, but I think you are being a bit unfair to expect JH to solve or seek resolution by jeapordising her and her family's well being. I would ask you again if you would be prepared to undertake what you are expecting of JH?

      Keep pushing it by all means, be the stone in the shoe of your local council, irritate the poo out of them but do it safely. G

      Delete
  29. A bit off topic but a friend who works her black Lab on shoots made an interesting comment. Her opinion is that chocolate labs have suffered with inbreeding and that it has affected their temperament. She reckons nobody uses them to work anymore as they are predatory and a bit dog aggressive. It's a bit of a random comment really as she didn't' mention any specific lines or breeders but she has been training and working with Labs for over thirty years.

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    1. Quite a few people in labs would say the same. I think in reality what happened is that chocolate became incredibly popular with the pet market - and not-so-good breeders were happy to meet the demand. You don't see many working, or being bred for work, and I have certainly met a few hyper ones in the past. I've met a few nice ones recently though.

      Jemima

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    2. The three colours in labs all seem to have a different type. The blacks, small and cobby, the yellows taller and rangier and the chocs can be huge. I have a friend with a choc, Bear, and he is lovely, but pushy.
      Last year at one of the shoots there was a choc working and very efficiently too. But the minute he was off duty, he went around trying to duff up the other males. Curiously all of the other males, regardless of colour, shrank away from him, despite the local keepers black being a real terrortorial exhibitionist and on his own ground too. Whatever the choc said, the others clearly didn't like it!!!

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  30. In case anyone missed my previous post.
    Recently licensed commercial premises in Ceredigion.

    Nantycastell is licensed for 78 breeding dogs. Dogs are kept in an agricultural barn, a puppy farm by anyone's standards?

    Dogs being bred are Bichons, Yorkies, Daxies, Dalmation, Cocker Spaniels, Cavaliers, Westies, Schauzers, Scotties.

    Recent pups registered with KC are....
    1 litter of Cavaliers
    1 litter of Miniature Dachshunds
    1 litter of Cockers

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  31. The concerning aspect of the behaviour is the predatory nature directed at other dogs. A male Choc lab I know is exercised well away from other dogs due to this. I always get that 'blood running cold' feeling when I see him off lead, actively targeting other dogs. His owner doesn't trust him around dogs. The dog seems to enjoy it. Almost like there is some 'gameness' bred in there? He requires strict management around other dogs, but he is relaxed, friendly and playful with people. There are also a couple of Chocolate lab bitches I am also wary of around dogs- they actively target dogs and display body language that means business. Owner is clueless though. And it's the clueless owner which is the biggest concern. 'it's ok. They just want to play.' etc.

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  32. Thank you again JH for putting this up... Georgina - I am aware that investigating puppy farms ( whether they register or not with the KC ) is a potentially dangerous thing to do, however me as 'joe blogs' have no power to do anything about it, CARIAD/PuppyLove are making strides at tackling this BUT in reality without the power that the media holds we can 'harp' on all we like no one listens.

    The 'impact' that PDE had certainly rattled folks whether in the right or wrong way - we as joe blogs have little power and no access to the media, JH does and has proved that through PDE, were I to have that power/know how and ability/contacts then in answer to your question YES I would act as my principle as I believe JH's is is to try and improve the health and welfare of pedigree dogs ( all dogs ideally, but we don't live in an ideal world), by councils authorising these mass breeding establishments and the KC registering them all we are really asking is for the publicity, lets get it out there, people need to know what councils, just as much as the KC are prepared to do to gain income - it is a mamouth task I'll grant you but with media assistance it could benefit ALL dogs IMO.

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    1. Hi anon 18:09
      Well I didn't know about 'til I read your blog and nor did many others, so you are circulating successfully. Don't despair though, JH has said that following recent developments that she may be able to step in and throttle the little g....., all in the best possible taste, of course. I was incensed by the programme about designer dogs and felt powerless so quite understand the frustration. Just be the stone in their shoe, let them know you are watching and waiting and that "innocent observance" will make them uncomfortable. Keep yourself safe and don't do anything to endanger your wellbeing. I would definately contact the KC again and again and again and the local press, mps, councillors, all of which I am sure you are doing. We had a case locally where some cocker spaniel puppies aged about 16 weeks had been dumped. The police found the source and rather than be hostile, one of the officers who shows gundogs, played the "helpful" hand and it worked. The farmer agreed to allow the RSPCA in on a regular basis, the police officer "befriended" him and whilst it wasn't ideal, the welfare of the dogs had improved. The dogs' condition, the housing,the feeding and water were marginal, very marginal.
      One of the horrific things came up was the disposal of dead dogs, both adults and puppies and of course, the dumping of puppies "too old" to sell. I must ask around and see what has happened about it, it was before I came to live here. I very much doubt with the reduced income and restrictions, that local councils have the resources to follow up, as you say, they take the money and run which isn't really what we pay our taxes for is it.

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  33. There is one issue with expanding gene pools and using more Sires and Dams and that is the reduction of quality and consistency within a breed. I use the example of Pugs. In this country about 5 years ago, a Pug was a Pug was a Pug. There were all roughly the same height, the same weight and carried similar characteristics, we even had a saying in the show ring, that when a judge is in doubt, Pick A Pug, due to the consistency of their type. Now, they vary in height, weight, type, head construction and body construction. Now saying this, yes there were problems with breathing and exaggeration in the face, but opening up the lines wildly is not the answer. That is just bringing in lines that are not as solid and animals that may have other faults that are not complimentary to the breed.

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  34. The answer to pug problems is puggles or pugpins.

    The answer to problems with the Dandy D.'s small gene pool insn't one outcross, but to re- group the breeds so clusters of breeds become varieties within one breed. The Dandy D. would become one variety of Earthdogs - or name the group/breed whatever people like.

    Some people woud still choose to breed Dandy D.s to DandyD.s, but other people would create Internationally bred Earthdogs.

    What answers are there to a gene pool which is too small {a gene puddle} ?

    We could have those breeds go extinct rather than change.

    Or we could blend several gene puddles into a healthy sized gene pool.

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