On the plus-side, most of the Neos have wide open nostrils (which is more than can be said for the Dogues de Bordeaux - pix to follow) and they have gleaming coats. And, no, one can't expect miracles overnight. But I will continue highlighting this breed until the dogs born into it have a reasonable chance of a long, comfortable and unnecessarily-encumbered life.
I see UK Neo health rep Kim Slater on the new Exhibitor Choice + Voice Facebook site is arguing that it will be impossible to ever get tight eyes in the breed because the breed standard demands loose skin.
In other words, it wouldn't be a Neo without ectropion. And we're hearing much the same from the Clumber and Basset denialists, too. Depressing.
Also to come... why are SO many breeds now cutting or shaving off whiskers (or vibrissae as they are more correctly known) - especially, as is evident on some of these Neos, on muzzles that are already prone to soreness?
Nevermind the skin, why on earth are they wobbling all over? Most of them look like theyre about to fall flat over on their sides!
ReplyDeleteI have been breeding Neos for 10 years the best dog ever. They can seem cumbersome, but that is the gait that the akc tries to adhere to.
DeleteThe akc disappoints me for always trying to take a dog that is not theirs and make it so. The American bulldog for example is a great dog and bred just for akc. You can not mess with every dog from other countries and expect change.
DeleteI got exactly that same argument from a Clumber spaniel breeder yesterday. You must have ectropion to have a perfect Clumber spaniel.
ReplyDeletesounds like a sadly delusioned breeder - however - can you blame them for being so ignorant when the breed standard still says eyes showing some haw acceptable!!!??!!! these people clearly think they are breeding to their interpretation of the standard which as it is could easily be taken that way unfortunately. i just hope when i come to buy a clumber in the future (a breed ive been dreaming of owning for several years now) i can find one with good hips and good eyes...im starting to think it might be a bit of a needle in a haystack search, but i hope not - i love the breed and i hope having put in years of research before getting one i can avoid many of the pitfalls.....fingers crossed hey!
DeleteBut haw doesn't mean ectropion, it means a sliver of the third eyelid is exposed. This happens in a number of breeds, including beagles, but it isn't about exposing the mucous membrane beneath the eye. A breeder worth their salt would know this, so it is hardly a valid excuse.
DeleteIf Dali painted dogs...
ReplyDeleteI've seen a lot of loose skinned dogs, but I've never seen one with so much loose skin on the legs.
ReplyDeleteThey are almost like flying squirrels!
Look at the legs compared to the picture of the bitch that's been posted since. The legs on these guys look abnormal- very unsteady, and lax-looking, like the ligaments are struggling to hold up under all that weight.
ReplyDeleteI personally find these dogs quite ugly with the huge amounts of excess flesh dangling from their body. I think it's a great shame that breeders will readily accept entropion and/or red and inflamed eyes all in the name of a few sentences drawn up on a bit of paper. But yet these same breeders will surely claim they love their dogs and the breed and are not the problem. *Sigh*.
ReplyDeleteLouise.
Thank you for the wonderful photo of my Neapolitan Mastiff. He is BVA eye tested, Hip Scored and Heart tested and so far is fit as a fiddle and runs miles and miles along the beach when out for his walk. IN fact he only sees a vet when he’s been to be health screened.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes the BVA eye examination diagnosed ectropion due to the presence of visible ‘conjunctiva’. But this was over a year ago and still he has experienced no health complications.
As a keen mastnio enthusiast if you can point me in the directon of a clinical study or hard evidence (not speculative opinion) that ‘conjuctiva’ causes the dog harm in any way I would much appreciate it, as so far myself or my vet have been unable to find any such evidence.
Chris
I assume if it was not a problem the vet would not have diagnosed it , one does not diagnose normality !
DeleteWell Mr/Mrs Anonymous. Actually normality is often diagnosed. In this case the veterinarian world has decided to diagnose a characteristic of visible conjunctiva as equating to the dog having ectropion. Now any breed can suffer with ectropion and there are clear external signs such as discharge and conjunctivitis. Now not all dogs that have the characteristic of visible conjunctiva display these symptoms of ectropion. So there is a case to argue that there is a level of ectropion if that is what we are to class this characteristic as, that causes the dog no harm.
DeleteAs I pointed out there is no scientific evidence to support the case that the characteristic of visible conjunctiva causes any harm
Now there are numerous examples of diagnosing normality. For instance the human female pelvis. There is actually four types of female pelvis all with different characteristics from each other . Now despite this variability in general they don’t cause any issues, but because of there unique varying characteristics they can be diagnosed, thus normality is often diagnosed.
Chris
I don’t think I understand this at all.
DeleteThe eye lid is malformed and turns in or out (entropian) and it does this because of excessive folds of skin, the shape of the eye and lower lids being too long – nobody seems to be debating that this is due to anything other than people wanting dogs who have excessive skin folds on the dogs’ faces and drooping eyes. Is this right?
In turn, entropian exposes the conjunctiva, a mucus membrane which needs lubrication to function. When the concunctiva can’t function because it’s not being lubricated, or dried out by the climate, or collecting more debris from the environment, the result is eye inflammation and infection. Additionally, the eyes aren’t lubricated and tears do not keep the eye clear of debris, either because of over production or poor drainage (epiphora), leading to infection and sight impairment. Is this right?
If that’s Biology 101 and the dog is uncomfortable, irritated, in pain, or at risk of going blind, what’s the issue? If you want to slog through a decent text book and look at the nitty gritty to justify looks over a resonable quality of life, then try: Inflammatory diseases of the conjunctiva, Thanh Hoang-Xuan, Christophe Baudouin, Catherine Creuzot-Garcher.
H
UFAW has rounded up the collective veterinary/scientific wisdom on ectropion. This relates to Bloodhounds, but much of it applies more generally:
Deletehttp://www.ufaw.org.uk/ECTROPIONBLOODHOUND.php
Jemima
Thanks Jemima, even my science challenged brain could absorb and understand it.
DeleteH
My response to has 3 points
Delete1st; My mastino are family pets first , I do not breed and I rarely show. Despite this as said I have had my dogs health screened and they want for nothing. Why do you and others have this miss-directed belief that owners and breeders want to see these dogs in pain. The vast majority of owners I know want to work to eliminate health problems associated with the breed - and lets not be stupid here of course there are associated health problems as there as with all living creatures including humans.
2nd H you go on about Biology 101 and a decent text book, well with the up most respect I think you need to revisit text books as you use the word entropian when in fact you describe ectropion,
Now as I previously and you have said, there are clearly adverse affects caused by ectropion. But there are dogs with visible conjunctiva that do not show any adverse affects, therefore there is a clear tipping point where at some point too much visible conjunctiva causes health issues. But at what point is this? No body yet knows (see point 3). As I said in my earlier post I had my male mastino examined at one year old and will again regularly use the BVA eye screening programme to monitor this. Therefore in such breeds where haw / conjunctiva has been a significant part of its makeup, it is clearly obvious that dogs with less exaggeration of this feature should be chosen, however I do believe that some visible haw/conjunctiva is acceptable and causes no harm which brings me onto my 3rd point
3rd. Thank you Jemima for providing me the link I did find it an interesting resource. There are the main points I took from it:
1.Intensity of welfare impact: Ectropion alone may cause some discomfort especially if inflammation and infection of the conjunctiva are present.
Now the key word is some. As if you critique the article and more importantly the studies on which it is based upon. Not all those diagnosed with ectropian had any forms of discomfort and thus supports the argument of others within the filed of a tipping point.
2. Number of animals affected : as far as we are aware, there are no data on the prevalence of these conditions.
Now here, me a pet owner went to the expense of having my dog tested as there is no statistical studies on the number of dogs with visible haw/ectropian and the resulting health consequences. So as I always say this maybe a huge problem or infact it may actually not be. The only way is by having a study which I for one would fully support because I would not want breeders to breed a characteristic that was proven to cause harm or suffering.
On a side note many of the resources they have used are now out of date, in Human Health they try to use resources as current as possible and anything over 10 years old is certainly disregarded. There was once a time when training vets would not label visible haw/conjunctiva as even being entropies.
Chris
To breed a dog with this terrible abundance of loose skin and associated problems is as cruel as shutting in a shed and starving it to death. Why are the breeders who produce animals like this so devoid of any notion how this must feel for the dog.
ReplyDeleteFran
I watched the whole judging and found that there was noticeable improvemttn in the breed. Above all, the young black birch was not only less wrinkled but was a wonderful mover.
DeleteAll in all, the judge was OK...really went for a well-built and athletic dogs.
What is up with the dog in Crufts-507? Is that some sort of harness? Why would they bring that into the ring?
ReplyDeleteI think it is just the handler using a lead that is to long and they can't manage it properly.
ReplyDeletehave you asked permission for this owners dog and owner to be put on your website
ReplyDeleteEven if the pictures are removed the dog will remain this deformed mess.
DeleteAbsolutely stunning photos.
ReplyDeleteH
POOR dogs!! How dreadful and uncomfortable they look. Perhaps all that skin is 'allowed' in the breed standard but it most certainly doesnt make it RIGHT for the dog. What are breeders thinking of to allow this to happen to dogs they are supposed to love. Sad
ReplyDeleteHere you have your proof that the breeders and show people are cognitively ignoring the KC's health reforms.
ReplyDeleteHow? The 'health reforms' were brought in 2 to 3 years ago. Obviously no dog born before that time could be changed by them, and it'll take more than a single generation (all that is allowed in that timescale) to show any noticeable difference. Check the dogs in 10 years time and judge then if any progress has been made.
DeleteWhy on earth would anybody deliberately breed something like this in the first place. Some of these dogs are monstrous, how anybody could find this attractive is beyond me. Poor dogs!
ReplyDeleteLook at the human version of the Mastino-face that I just found.
ReplyDeletehttp://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/089/6/b/neapolitan_mastiff_wip2_by_elimak-d4ufvvw.jpg
Kinda makes you think?
(Slightly inaccurate though, such as the skin coming from the nose.)
And I know, dogs are not humans, and bla bla bla, but they can still suffer from deformities just as much as we can.
They also use their face when communicating with other creatures, and that communication becomes impaired when we breed for deformity.
How would you feel conversing with that human? Would you be able to see all of his or her facial expressions? No, so you would feel uncomfortable, not knowing their intentions.
There is a reason many dogs seem to be uncomfortable communicating with other dogs of the most deformed breeds...
(And BTW, yes, I have a new url in my name.)