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| My dog's got no nose... |
Breed notes writer Alison Mount writes:
"Opinions were sought on which areas of health that most frequently affect Pugs should be covered and it was agreed that orthopaedic issues, DNA testing and research techniques and eye problems should be the topics."
Now it's great that the Pug Club is discussing these issues - and particularly what sounds like a new impetus to tackle the hemivertebrae (abnormal spine) problem in the breed.
But... didn't they forget something? What about the fact that Pugs can't breathe properly because you've bred the poor things with such ridiculously flat faces? The Pug, along with other bracycephalic breeds such as the Peke, is plagued by bracychephalic obstructed airway syndrome (which often requires a surgical procedure to correct). According to the breeders, however, the cause is nothing to do with the flat face and no doubt the Comments section below will rapidly fill with Pug breeders telling me just that.
"It has been proven in Pekes that a longer muzzle does not help the breathing, it is the nostrils that count," says Adele Nicholson, Secretary of the Pug Dog Club.
Proven? Show me the proof!
There is none, of course - just anecdotal evidence from breeders of bracycephalic dogs suffering the collective delusion that they've done nothing wrong in distorting a dog into such a freakish shape. And so they maintain that the length of the dog's muzzle has nothing to do with the breed's inclination to respiratory distress. The breeders say it's all about the size of the dog's nostrils so all they need to do is breed for bigger/more open ones. Sure, that has something to do with it. But it's only part of the story.
Don't take my word for it. Here's what the Animal Health Trust had to say about it to one pug owner who asked:
"Pugs are an example of a breed that has been selected to an extreme of conformation (very flat face), with all the problems that accompany it. You are right, a longer muzzle would help with the airflow; but this is a breeding issue, that can only be resolved with inverting the selection process and breeding pugs towards a longer nose. Nostrils can be "opened" with a surgery (the surgery for brachycephalic airway obstruction syndrome will include opening the nostrils and shortening the soft palate) but the muzzle cannot be prolonged surgically in one individual animal obviously."
Meanwhile in Germany, a few breeders have got together and said enough is enough. They're breeding a pug with a longer muzzle. The tagline on the MPRV website says: "Qualzucht? Nein Danke!"
It translates as "Torture breeding? No thank you!"
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| MPRV pugs with longer muzzles |
Following Pedigree Dogs Exposed, the Kennel Club here in the UK amended the Pug breed standard. It no longer demands a "short" muzzle; just a "relatively short" one. Will this be enough to encourage the UK breeders to breed a dog with a less abnormal anatomy?
Debatable. Breeders want the very flat faces. And the breed standard still points out that a double-curl in the tail is "highly desirable", despite an obvious link to hemivertebrae.
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| Hemivertebrae in a pug |
So... what are the chances of the Pug Clubs deciding that they should drop the double-twist as it comes with a health risk? About the same as breeding for a longer muzzle, I expect.
Good post! I find it so slow trying to educate the public because most of them only read about dogs when they are thinking about buying a puppy; that is where Pedigree Dogs Exposed was so helpful, it was on the telly.
ReplyDeleteI have only had one dog breeder tell me that she was not going to change how she bred dogs because she was making money going along with the system, but I fear that this is often the case.
That is why it is so helpful when the dog clubs change their show standards, but like in your beautiful example from Germany, individual breeders can bring change, at least for those people educated enough to look for a healthier built puppy.
The German Pugs, in the photo above, are so much more beautuful and so much healthier looking, that the English Pug, in the photo, looks like a toad by comparison. Change is needed, either by the club or by the breeders, or hopefully, by both.
Those German Pugs are beautiful! There are so many breeders out there who are doing exactly the right thing and are leading the way with pedigree dog breeding. Those dogs are still pugs, but they are so much healthier.
ReplyDeleteHogarth's "Trump" had a normal muzzle:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.tate.org.uk/kids/tales/img/hogarth.jpg
Brachycephalic dogs also have a risk toward certain cancers: http://dogtime.com/intracranial-neoplasia-canine-cancer-library.html
Those German pugs are certainly far more attractive than ours. Who wouldn't prefer one of those?
ReplyDeleteWhat I'd like to know is how they got the muzzle longer.
This is where the Kennel Club should step in, because it really is not right to continue to breed a dog as deformed as the UK pug. They should refuse to register or recognise any pugs until the breeders produce a better dog, ie one with a German-style muzzle, no silly knot in its tail and a healthy spine.
The Kennel Club has such power but they never wield it. I cannot understand why they do not want to set a good example.
Julia Lewis
I think part of the issue is people want "purebreeds", while these "retro pugs" aren't "pure" - they weren't created by pugs breeding with other pugs. No, these dogs were created by outbreeding pugs with another similar, but healthier breed of dog, and then breeding those offspring with other pugs/together to remove any "crossbreed" appearance.
DeleteUnfortunately, "purebred" often means "inbred" now, and it would be very difficult to selectively find "purebred" pugs with the desired healthy build. Outbreeding is the quicker and more logical approach to dealing with such issues, but again, seems to be frowned upon with breeders.
The retro pug/mop was developed by outbreeding pugs to the parsons russel terrier then breeding the offspring back to pug then breeding only the offspring with the longest muzzles together. Considering just how small the pugs gene pool was, this improves the breed in more than just one way. Of course the foolish breeders don't see it that way.
DeleteRetrieverman wrote: "Brachycephalic dogs also have a risk toward certain cancers: http://dogtime.com/intracranial-neoplasia-canine-cancer-library.html"
ReplyDeletePossibly a little unfair to pull this out when this paper also says:
"...while meningiomas are most frequently seen in dolicocephalic (dogs with long narrow skull) breeds."
This German group set up in the year 2000. They imported females from Hungary and males from east Germany, Hungaria, Slovakia and France. They found dogs that were descended from the old German pug that was originally a cross between pug and affenpinscher, around in the 1920’s but virtually gone by the 60’s as seen as too lively!
ReplyDeleteThese people found some and have bred them with their pugs. There are loads of these breeders. They actively strive to produce healthier dogs with regards to breathing and eyes. They are critisised by “normal” pug breeders as having un pure pugs even by their own KC.
There's also a pug by Gainsborough: again much longer in the leg, slimmer and with a more "normal" looking muzzle. Interestingly the curly tail evidently isn't a recent innovation.
ReplyDeletethe double twist in the tail is itself a hemivertebrae. And now they want to find a genetic test for the condition?
ReplyDeleteSurely any pugs with a twist to the tail with have the genes responsible for hemivertebra?
I'm glad to see that about the German pugs...Pugs are very dear to my heart as I grew up with them. Hopefully ppl here in the states will follow the German's example and save the pug before it's too late.
ReplyDeleteExtreme in dolicocephalic dogs isn't that great either.
ReplyDeleteNo argument here.
1879 Pug by Charles Burton Barber: http://tinyurl.com/23xcabd
ReplyDeleteLooks awfully similar to those MPRV dogs!
not sound stupid, but lots of dogs have twists in their tails...do all of these suffer from hemivertibrae? basenjis, malamutes, pomeranians...?
ReplyDeleteWho knows, as many cases in pugs and frenchies are found incidentally on radiograph, and some dogs carrying the defect never show clinical signs, or show them later in life.
ReplyDeleteI have seen one documented case in a basenji puppy. As for malamutes, I wouldn't say their tails were particularly curled tightly over the back plus they have much longer legs and a longer body. Poms also do not have a required tightly curled tail, and their tails are longer?
The clear difference to me is that the breeds that suffer with the problem in high numbers all have brachy faces, short spines, stocky bodies, and highly deformed tail vertebra if any at all.
I thought this post brilliant, at last a picture of what a good pug can look like. With the added advantage of much better eyes too. They can still be recognised as a pug and no other breed. Yet again it's the independants who are blazing the way and show what can actually be done if there is enough genuine desire to do so.
ReplyDeleteAs for the previous comment - comparing the tail curl of such dogs a basenji and spitz types, with the pug, proposterous!
Great Blog!
To see just how the pug has changed over the years and the potential problems that these changes can cause, watch this
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0mJW_LKsU
It's quite long so grab a cup of tea!
As someone who breeds Frenchies, I've spent almost twenty years intentionally breeding for a dog which has a longer face, open nares and normal palates. It CAN be done -- it can actually be done, and still produce a conformationally competitive dog.
ReplyDeleteStep one, for breeders, is to simply say "NO". No to breeding from *or* to dogs who have had palate surgery, nares corrections or obviously laboured breathing.
One of the things I remain most proud of is that, in 21 years of Frenchies, I have NEVER produced a dog which required a palate correction.
Do my dogs have the countersunk face some breeders seem to find desirable? No, and thankfully, I have found that the majority of people within our breed (and ALL of the pet owners) will happily accept a longer face in exchange for a longer life span.
Ditto tails - give me a Frenchie with a normal, waggy tail any day. Tails are part of our dogs spinal cords - they should not be twisted, inverted or non existant. Again, we can achieve this by being selective in what we breed from or to, and by not being afraid to do what's right for our dogs, even if it means less ribbons.
I'm glad that there are breeders like you out there who actually care about their dogs. I want to breed cavalier king charles spaniels without the brain and heart problems. I don't care if they aren't "show material" I just want to have happy healthy dogs and they are such lovely, cuddly and friendly dogs that it's a shame the breeders are being so careless for what they are doing to them. I have 2 rescue Cavaliers both with heart problems and they were bred from before j rescued them and i think it's awful
DeleteGreat to hear this, FrogDogz. Would love to see some pix of your dogs.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if there is anyone in the UK breeding pugs with the longer muzzle? Or planning to do so?
ReplyDelete@frogdog, thank you! My first thought when I saw this, and saw those KYOOOOOOT Pugs with muzzles, is "Now why cant there be frenchies like that!". I am going to check out your dogs and your blog. I see no reason why I cant have my cake and eat it too (healthy sound Frenchies with muzzles not from a BYB)
ReplyDeleteI wrote to the Pug Dog Club, and they told me that the Pug is not at risk from selective breeding! :S
ReplyDeleteYeah, a little bit less deformed and slightly healthier :)
ReplyDeleteim so happy i found this i have had comments from so many people saying my pug is not pure breed because his nose is not flat but knowing that he is able to breathe so much better makes me a lot more happier and i dont really care if it makes him show worthy or not as long as he is healthy is all i care about plus he looks so much better than alot of other pugs extremely handsome if i do say so myself
ReplyDeleteAs a long time pug owner and the issues that come with the flat face, I applaud any breeder taking a stand and breeding pugs with a longer snout. Health is most important. Right now, I have one that a longer snout and longer legs. He doesn't have breathing issues and has unusually straight teeth for a pug. Not to mention he is drop dead gorgeous (silver boy). There is nothing to match the amazing personality of these little guys. Please, please continue in this direction for those of us who love them.
ReplyDeleteI have 2 flat faced Pugs, and neither of them have ever had problems breathing. I looked for puppies with nice wide nostrils, and who's parents had never had any corrective surgery. The result is 2 perfectly healthy dogs that have never cost me a cent at the vet except for vaccinations.
ReplyDeleteI just don't understand why breeders would breed traits that worsen the dogs health, why are those traits so desirable for shows and things?
ReplyDeleteMy family own a pedigree long nosed pug and I can quite confidently say that her breathing is a whole lot easier due to the longer muzzle/ nose than it is if she had the classic I just ran into a brick wall looking muzzle which gives the decades old pugs their severe breathing problems.
ReplyDeleteI have a long nose pug like the ones in the above pic, I get asked frequently, what breed is he, when I tell them he is a pug they are shocked because he has a longer snout , also on a group site where u can post pics of your pugs and puglets, he has been called a mongrel because his nose isn't lflat enough, which made me question the fact is he or isn't he , even though he is a pedigree. So I started to reaserch and just found my answer thanks to the article above. 😊
ReplyDeleteSo, what is your ultimate solution? They should not exist because they have health problems, is that what you're saying? Try to apply the same logic to people, and be ashamed of yourself, you fascist pig.
ReplyDeleteIf you had bothered to comprehend the purpose of this blog, you'd realize it argues that breeders should not breed from poorly conformed dogs in the first place. So, yes, their offspring should not exist because they should not have been created in the first place.
DeleteCould be you think failing to breed an animal is the same as killing its offspring. (If so, you need help.)
But no, I don't think that's what you're implying. You're going further than that, with your talk of a final, ermm, ultimate solution.
Since you're evoking the Holocaust, please give examples where anyone on this blog says that poorly conformed dogs should be killed.
While you're at it, google "Godwin's Law".
Excuse you? Are we comparing humans to dogs now? Because if so, I don't remember anyone ever selectively breeding human beings. That alone would be a highly immoral practice if applied to humans.
DeleteHowever, IF that practice existed, and people were DELIBERATELY being bred with painful health complications that would restrict them and lower their quality of life, I think it's safe to say that most folks would want that practice to stop. That's not saying that people who HAVE disabilities should be eliminated... it's saying that if there is anything we can do to prevent health complications in the first place, we should definitely do that. Are you also offended by medical science and it's pursuit of solutions to medical problems? Because that's what this amounts to.
The only thing anyone wants to eliminate is the practice of breeding defects into animals. With the result being that the pug as we know it would eventually cease to exist. It was never anything that nature intended in the first place... this article is just suggesting that humans reverse their irresponsible tampering with something else's genes.
I think that what they are doing to pug is so so terrible that I will stop them my self
ReplyDeletePugs (and other breeds) by etiology, by nature, and yes, to some degree by nurture also, fall into a category of dog breeds most notably characterized by the term 'Brachycephalic', which is from the Greek meaning 'short' and 'head'. This would be in reference to the skull's shape and whether it was shorter THAN THAT WHICH IS USUAL FOR A SPECIFIC SPECIES, not BREED, SPECIES (species=canine, breed=pug, peke, etc.). Nowhere in any reputable reference material will it mention the words 'brachycephic' and 'breathing problems' in the same sentence, yet many supposedly well versed people toss those two words around like they're a popular dressing duo commonly used on a mixed green salad. They are not the same, do not have the same meaning, are not synonomous and are NEVER to be used interchangabley. EVER. The term brachycephalic merely refers to the scientific name tag given to various species in the world that fall within a certain range on the Cephalic Index, which is the ratio of the maximum width of the head of an organism (human or animal), multiplied by 100, divided by its maximum length in the horizontal plane, in other words, from the front to the back (in this case, of the head). It has absolutely nothing to do with whether an organism's breathing is going to be adequate enough to support its life expectancy, temperature restrictions, exercise regimen or respiratory function(s). It also cannot predict the next night's winning lottery numbers for you. THAT ISSUE (not the lottery one) is known as Brachycephlic S-Y-N-D-R-O-M-E or Brachycephalic Airway Syndrome!!! Two completely different diagnosis' entirely. Are they related? Possibly. Are they interchangeble terms meaning the same thing? Absolutely NOT. So please, the next time your little crusade to save the day gets your panties in a bunch and makes you feel like you need to wipe out an entire population of good, decent and, for the most part, honest people with your ignorant misrepresentation of the FACTS...PLEASE, DO YOUR RESEARCH FIRST AND FLING INSULTS AND ACCUSATIONS SECOND. I have a feeling that by judiciously doing the former you'll find no need for the latter thereby rendering this 'expose' entirely pointless, not to mention useless, senseless and all the other '-lesses' there happen to be in the human language as we currently understand it to be understood.
ReplyDeleteThat's a heck of a lot of words. Especially given that I have not used the terms interchangeably - have merely pointed out that brachy dogs are predisposed to BOAS.
DeleteDoes being brachy guarantee breathing probs? Nope (and I've never said that). But the link is well established, with scientific paper after scientific paper elucidating it.
I don't believe it is Ms. Harrison's goal with this educational crusade to wipe out "good, decent, and for the most part, honest people"...it is to provide the information necessary for said people to accept the best scientific evidence that brachycephalism in domestic dogs is unnatural for the species and causes welfare issues for no reason other than pedigree traditions and human aesthetics. Now tell me, do those good, decent, and mostly honest people value their status quo over the well-being of the dogs they produce? Then perhaps you need to rethink your description of them.
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