tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post896008294908630872..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Best in Show Daily joins the 21st CenturyJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-25647305199153328672015-05-13T18:10:27.586+01:002015-05-13T18:10:27.586+01:00I take your point that the project didn't help...I take your point that the project didn't help genetic diversity.<br /><br />Just to be clear though, you are saying that if you took, say the pointer breeds, you could inter breed them one generation, and get back to a similar looking dog in 2,3 at most 4 generations?<br /><br />If I have understood you correctly, it still seems to me to be a good way, along with breeding widely within your field of further increasing diversity, because the dogs you get from other fields, haven't bred with that population for many generations. I am not a geneticist, but would be interested how much you could widen the genetics this way, compared to Joanna's plan alone. Which I think for some breeds is too little too late.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-67973678091337909902015-05-13T13:50:04.347+01:002015-05-13T13:50:04.347+01:00No, that's not quite right, I'm afraid. Th...No, that's not quite right, I'm afraid. The Dalmatian outcross was purely to bring in the one gene that coded for normal uric acid levels *not* for genetic diversity. And it has not increased genetic diversity in the Dalmatian. And NB it took a LONG time to regain type (in terms of good spotting) in the outcrossed Dals, but actually in most other instances you can do it MUCH quicker than this. If to a very similar breed, within 2/3 gens and if a very different breed, within 4 generations.Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-39069212298814728312015-05-13T13:21:53.362+01:002015-05-13T13:21:53.362+01:00I loved the article and loved the comments on the ...I loved the article and loved the comments on the article at 'Best in Show' and I'll post this here too, here is my solution:<br /><br />Here is a solution:<br /><br />Learn from the Dalmatian Heritage project: http://www.dalmatianheritage.com/about/nash_research.htm<br /><br />So walk across the line to a similar field of dogs, and cross breed in some diversity. This doubles your football field in effect, in fact if your football field is full of already very similar dogs it will have an even bigger effect. Have a look through the projects website, and you'll see that you can very quickly return to a similar dogs, such that in 20 years. You will have much more genetic diversity, but similar dogs.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-16606516389745514002015-05-11T02:32:42.131+01:002015-05-11T02:32:42.131+01:00I suppose this paper is the scientific proof of wh...I suppose this paper is the scientific proof of what a lot of people have known all along by experience, that breeding for only conformation as in showing is detrimental to any working abilities of breeds. <br /><br />As long as they are also soundly bred and the population soundness and numbers can stand a split between working and pet. Not the worst problem then. In the many breeds that don't have a function anymore as working dogs for example. Those traits for working could also potentially be a liability in a pet. <br /><br />However breeding for showing using line breeding inbreeding popular sires etc etc takes the dogs one step further away from that again as they become a liability even as pets! <br /><br />A dead end in fact?<br /><br /><br /><br />Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-1127095374092590182015-05-10T16:30:02.454+01:002015-05-10T16:30:02.454+01:00This Canadian Poodle breeder may be of interest:
h...This Canadian Poodle breeder may be of interest:<br />http://www.parispoodles.com/Welcome_To_Paris_Poodles.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-24024813491054149632015-05-09T09:03:53.911+01:002015-05-09T09:03:53.911+01:00There are people breeding poodles as working dogs ...There are people breeding poodles as working dogs responsibly, but if you want one, depending on what country you are in, you may have to look hard and wait. They tend to overlap with the people interested in breeding poodles from outlying bloodlines with less influence of the lines that the show breeders prefer to use, so the Standard Poodle Project might be able to give you some leads.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-35925300138623305272015-05-09T06:17:41.151+01:002015-05-09T06:17:41.151+01:00Lessons learnt then? Apparently not everywhere. Th...Lessons learnt then? Apparently not everywhere. The Wycliffe saga is all too typical in how dogs for the showring are bred but it must surely stand out as an example to everyone. Wonder how it found acceptance was it a struggle?<br /><br />Bob Grundy there shoud be a page just for you to get carried away on the Standard poodle. I love dog chatter. Unfortunately lifes too short to own all the dogs one would like. Im defintaley not a pedigree dog hater. If I ever get the chance to spend a day or two with a few standard poodles I wont say no.<br /><br />Are there standard poodles being bred along working lines?<br /><br />A very interesting current paper on the selection results in showing or pet dogs versus working dogs in "Canine Genetics and Epidemiology"<br /><br />http://www.cgejournal.org/content/2/1/6Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-37778881576452848072015-05-08T23:27:20.535+01:002015-05-08T23:27:20.535+01:00Some extensive research has recently been undertak...Some extensive research has recently been undertaken into genetic diversity in standard poodles https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GeneticDiversityInStandardPoodles.php The early results suggest there is enough diversity within the breed for it to be long-term sustainable, but much of the diversity appears to be in outlying bloodlines, and some rebalancing would help make sure it remains sustainable into the future. There is some correlation in that individuals with high influence of the Wycliffe or OEA bottlenecks tend to have more genetic similarity amongst themselves than do most of the outliers with less influence, but there are some relatively mainstream dogs who are reasonably diverse too. Another study here https://www.mydogdna.com/crm/index.html#en/breeds/519248a83cd390a052000195/poodle_standardblackbrownandwhite seems to agree with it and found a fairly respectable range of heterosis as measured by genetic markers amongst individuals.<br /><br />Owning a poodle does not mean you are forced to have it in a show clip. The short hunting clips and the ones with just a bit of longer coat on the head are actually pretty low maintenance if you're prepared to buy and learn to use clippers, and it's certainly easier and more enjoyable to spend an hour a month washing a dog and clipping it than it is to vacuum the house every day on behalf of a dog whose coat sheds. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-48028449077478654312015-05-08T18:11:22.495+01:002015-05-08T18:11:22.495+01:00Standard poodle, you're playing my song! Obvio...Standard poodle, you're playing my song! Obviously good breeders and bad in every breed, including Heinz57. A survey quoted in a post on this blog a year or two back (sorry, couldn't find it) told us the SP has a healthily large breeding population, average CoI around 4.5%, so if they are doomed many other breeds will go first. The Poodle Health Registry is an online resource, and free to join, if a breeder's dogs aren't on there they've probably something to hide, go elsewhere. On the PHR you may see a "Wycliffe %" figure, referring to a popular sire a half-century ago. That really is yesterday's health scare and a poor guide, today there are perfectly healthy lines with a high %, and distinctly dodgy ones despite low figure. A poodle is nobody's first dog; high maintenance, demanding, their coats need regular grooming whatever the style, but if you can handle that, well worth it. There are plenty good ones around, just do your homework before "buying a pup". At work they are gundogs, sheepdogs, sled-pullers, all sorts. Oh dear I'm getting carried away, better sign off!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15180655626161784235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-39896318855983164752015-05-08T09:51:58.684+01:002015-05-08T09:51:58.684+01:00River P, Google the Wycliff Bottleneck. http://sta...River P, Google the Wycliff Bottleneck. http://standardpoodleproject.com/What%20is%20%25Wycliffe.htmFrannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-62147541726660228452015-05-08T03:57:47.088+01:002015-05-08T03:57:47.088+01:00I have a real soft spot for standard poodles. I ho...I have a real soft spot for standard poodles. I honestly cant stand the showing clips, though. They looks so much nicer natural and curly. Puppy or sporting trim without the silly tail and face. Such a wonderful intelligent working dog or it was I imagine.<br /><br />Does this breed face the same major health challenges inbreeding and line breeding, closed registers etc has wrought? I guess so, sigh.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12529458371488143522015-05-07T10:26:59.593+01:002015-05-07T10:26:59.593+01:00The father of economics Adam Smith showed that if ...The father of economics Adam Smith showed that if each of us works honestly and wisely for our own prosperity, along the way that helps others improve theirs, and it all adds up to the Wealth of Nations. You'd think the same principle would apply to dogs, if we each improve our own breeding that ought to add up to better breeds: but it seems not to. I see no future in urging people to put the good of their breed ahead of their own dogs, we need to change what they see as "good". As a "show-head" who regularly attends the "parade of mutants", such words do not impress me. Showing is a harmless pastime if not taken too seriously. Trouble is the criteria for success there are not always what makes for happy healthy pets. Even though most of show dogs' offspring are sold as pets, that's not enough to keep some breeders honest. The KC is the guardian of breed quality, they must steer our individual efforts towards the collective improvement of our breeds.<br /><br />Thinking how that's to be done is giving me a headache, I'm off out with my dogs!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15180655626161784235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-29655364555995262212015-05-07T05:26:44.960+01:002015-05-07T05:26:44.960+01:00I have to reserve a special mention for that bulld...I have to reserve a special mention for that bulldog "Bentley" on the E-Zine "Best in Show" it would be unethical not to. Its nose has been squarely pushed back between its eyes, I've never seen such extreme "pushback" and yes those Frenchies are suffocating as well, suffocating as we type.<br /><br />What struck me as quite comical (though it might have some serious consequences) was what has happened to the Rottweilers face "Xannon", surely no one thinks thats correct??? Its a sort of pinched push back the kind I've never seen in all my life, quite extraordinarily odd, like a humans face shrunk then flattened onto a moon cut in half. It was such a handsome functional working breed, maybe still is in Germany in some shutzhund lines.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-49378198709038207062015-05-07T05:02:14.260+01:002015-05-07T05:02:14.260+01:00Yes. I am keen to know where Joanna Kimbal disagre...Yes. I am keen to know where Joanna Kimbal disagrees with PED? She seems to have things more or less covered. Or is it simply more acceptable/palatable coming from within?<br /><br />As in "we in Cardigans have a wonderful, healthy breed with very few issues". Besides profound achondroplasia that is, a disease that defines the breed. As long as you don't say that out loud as an outsider to corgis then things are all going swimmingly well I suppose, no splutters and spilt cups of tea.<br /><br />I had to laugh out loud when I read "That bitch who had to be carefully restrained during her entire career because she bit judges, and you know that three of her puppies also bite people? Don’t be blaming the owners; look in the mirror for that one. Perpetuating what is in effect a mental illness is bad for the population."<br /><br />Add heavily sedated to "carefully restrained" and you have a very typy dog show scenario. <br /><br />A little titillating anecdotal evidence here but and here comes the "I knew a woman..." and I did who showed Sealyhams very successfully on the continent, it's a very small world Sealyham showing so Im not even going to mention the country. Her repeat winning champ of breed had to be constantly under sedation as he suffered from extreme "rage". I expect brought on by also being an extreme pied dog (Canine Health & Genetics, Dalmations, Dogs, Pedigree Abuses, Sine qua Non Disease, Torture Breeding, Christopher Landauer, Border Wars 31/4/13). She literally used to drag him through his paces and being the "best" out of maybe seven showing dogs in the whole of the European continent he won and won and won. Heavens knows where his genes ended up but I bet there is certainly some dragging still going on out there given their tiny gene pool. <br /><br />Things are actually looking brighter for the Sealyham these days as out crossing projects have been under way for some time both in the UK and the States. In the states just to make sure in case anyone is looking they call the outcross meantime a different breed entirely so no one thinks the Sealyham has been delibrately tainted.<br /><br />"Perpetuating what is in effect a mental illness is bad for the population". Well yes ha ha ha, rocket science it aint. Maybe doping tests should be more stringent in these breeds, the Dalmation is one such breed I believe too.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-27417603766076727662015-05-06T13:05:05.314+01:002015-05-06T13:05:05.314+01:00A lot of the bad feeling towards Jemima and PDE co...A lot of the bad feeling towards Jemima and PDE comes from the perceived attack on showing as a "way of life". The hard critique of the genetics of pedigree breeding was deflected by individuals who felt personally got at. Take that element away, look at the hard dispassionate science, and views tend to converge. Kevin ColwillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-75973621853346328962015-05-06T10:30:10.192+01:002015-05-06T10:30:10.192+01:00It's crazy how people will denounce any overla...It's crazy how people will denounce any overlap their opinions with PDE but when it comes down to it, the whole philosophy is one and the same. Slinkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18323979007277872567noreply@blogger.com