tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post7412705371067959568..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Vet checks come under pressure from contradictory decisionJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-89366293827928683612012-08-30T22:30:13.342+01:002012-08-30T22:30:13.342+01:00Thanks for your replies, I'm quite shocked tha...Thanks for your replies, I'm quite shocked that it is not the case that every dog that is presented before a judge with the potential to win a ticket, represent the breed "as the best" and win BIS has not passed a vet inspection on that day before being placed. It is my view that this should be a must and that certificates and titles are not awarded until all clinical tests that are available are passed - whilst this I'm sure would disgruntle the folk that like winning prizes with their dogs, I'm sure simple measures such as this would be a great start in helping secure a better future for our dogs - breeding for extremities must become a thing of the past, healthy happy dogs suitable for the family home is an absolute must this is after all where most of them live!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-91670681887337868392012-08-30T18:44:23.554+01:002012-08-30T18:44:23.554+01:00I totally agree Anonymous. They all bitch about in...I totally agree Anonymous. They all bitch about injustices in the show ring but what about the injustice of taking away the only welfare group that cared for and rehomed the abandoned and unwanted neapolitans. It's people like me that DO care about this breed that clear up the breeders mess and care day in and day out treating the sore eyes and infected folds of skin that the breeders "bust a gut" to achieve. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-64310984093701446982012-08-30T14:58:06.649+01:002012-08-30T14:58:06.649+01:00I was waiting for this to happen... Ms Slater is e...I was waiting for this to happen... Ms Slater is exhibiting perfect cognitive dissonance. She sees the breed through the breed-club rose-tinted spectacles that conveniently filter out what the rest of us see.<br /><br />The club clearly shows it doesn't care about the welfare of it's own breed when they can't even get ONE PERSON to run a rescue & welfare concern for Neapolitans in need.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-83318485254598116852012-08-28T10:28:23.375+01:002012-08-28T10:28:23.375+01:00Some working breeds dog have COI problems but the ...Some working breeds dog have COI problems but the whole point of a working dog is that it's go to be healthy enough to do the job! Working clumbers and working cockers have both had coi issues as they started rebuilding working lines from a relatively low number fo dogs, yet they have managed to do it and so far to maintain/improve health, temperament and working ability! Popular sire syndrome is alive and well in the working dog world but thankfully the prizes are given to dogs which can actually do the job; the cripples and mental cases don't win so don't breed. The same may not be true when selecting for looks alone (see today GSD clip). Where working spaniel breeders (my area) have been slow is inaccepting that a dog which works well and wins trials could be a carrier of a genetic disease but slow progress is being made with some really nice dogs now being tested both in the field and in the lab!<br />VPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-59854376064749580462012-08-27T21:57:32.842+01:002012-08-27T21:57:32.842+01:00Hi Jemima
I'm unaware of the comment stream a...Hi Jemima<br /><br />I'm unaware of the comment stream as I merely want to interject for a moment. But can I just ask why you only seem to be (and I apologise for using such a strong word but) targeting only the show dogs?<br /><br />Why not look into the working dogs too, as from where I'm standing their inbreeding coefficient can't possibly be doing any better, you just seem to have a very biased view point.<br /><br />Just saying...<br /><br />xAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-51928369686196454422012-08-27T11:01:19.626+01:002012-08-27T11:01:19.626+01:00Not quite true; the vet is not making any referenc...Not quite true; the vet is not making any reference to 'genetic conditions'. They are only commenting on conformational issues which ON THE DAY are affecting the dogs health. So skin folds themselves are not a fail but skin folds showing infection and inflammation are; ectropion is not an automatic fail but if there is discharge from the eyes and inflammation because of the ectropion the dog fails THAT DAY; stenotic nares are not in themselves a fail but a dog struggling to breath because of them is.<br />VPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-35586864533998643312012-08-25T23:18:48.118+01:002012-08-25T23:18:48.118+01:00Yes you're right. The check is when a dog has ...Yes you're right. The check is when a dog has been declared Best of Breed. The vet is supposed, in the same time and conditions that the judge had (ie, less than 2 minutes per dog and with no additional lighting or equipment), to decide whether that individual has genetic conditions that are hazardous to its own health and that of its offspring. Transient and temporary conditions are not supposed to affect the verdict. Therefore when two separate independent vets have passed an animal it's odd that a third would reject it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-89869043675630176332012-08-25T19:38:08.515+01:002012-08-25T19:38:08.515+01:00Previous poster said
"There are many breeds...Previous poster said <br /><br />"There are many breeds that look fine and suffer severely compromised lifespans due to high frequency of certain diseases."<br /><br />Oh YES this comment certainly aplies in Border Terriers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-87403522715669477522012-08-25T19:33:56.185+01:002012-08-25T19:33:56.185+01:00Excellent point Beth,how true!Excellent point Beth,how true!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-14957769931269344122012-08-25T17:52:37.202+01:002012-08-25T17:52:37.202+01:00I will bet that if Kim personally had severe ectro...I will bet that if Kim personally had severe ectropian, she would be seeing an eye surgeon to have it corrected. And if she personally had a medical condition which gave her extra pounds of skin, and a doctor said she could fix it, Kim would go for that fix. In fact, people who have lost large amounts of weight DO get extra skin removed because besides being uncomfortable, it also has health consequences. <br /><br />Dogs are not people and we allow (justly) all sorts of things with animals that we do not allow with people. I guess I just would invite Kim to think of how she would feel if a child of hers had medical conditions that resulted in the conditions expressed by the dog, and then the logical follow up is why intentionally create dozens of dogs who suffer from these conditions?Bethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-29752396487371978152012-08-25T07:42:04.425+01:002012-08-25T07:42:04.425+01:00Well, how about some evidence first that all that ...Well, how about some evidence first that all that extra loose skin and ectropian don't impinge on the dog's quality of life. <br /><br />Let's see how well this dog ages compared to the breeder's lighter Vaoila. The more Neos with fewer exaggerations, the more comparisons can be made between the less exaggerated dogs and those which make everybody, outside of Neo World, wince. <br /><br />I do think entropian and ectropian should be disqualifying features. Even if they don't cause discomfort every single day, why deliberately breed for something that a lot of the time WILL cause problems/discomfort? Otherwise, the KC's mantra about 'happy, healthy dogs' is a farce. It should really be: 'happy, healthy dogs, so long as health and happiness don't stand in the way of breeding for freakish exaggerations.' But I guess that doesn't have quite the same ring to it.<br /><br />If the dog's happiness really was important, Neos would no longer exist.Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-62319166510295610662012-08-25T04:02:30.931+01:002012-08-25T04:02:30.931+01:00I think that veterinary examinations at conformati...I think that veterinary examinations at conformation shows are inadequate. If dogs are to be excluded because of unhealthy genetic conditions, they should not be limited to brief, superficial exams of external appearances. Instead, I think that physical exams should be required as a condition for being permitted to compete. Those exams should be breed-specific, but certainly some, such as eye exams, should apply to all breeds.<br /><br />If a breed has a widely recognized, widespread genetic health disorder (such as mitral valve disease and/or syringomyelia for the cavalier King Charles spaniel) which should prevent the competing dog from being bred if recognized veterinary-recommended breeding protocols were followed, then all competing dogs in that breed should be examined for those disorders, and if any dog has the disorder, it should not be eligible to compete in the conformation event. Such exams should not be limited to once in a lifetime, unless the disorder is recognized as not having late onset or the likelihood of progressing. Annual exams could be a solution to late onset and progression of the disorders. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-54181461879205157192012-08-25T03:42:00.686+01:002012-08-25T03:42:00.686+01:00In that case, I would say one cannot. -- Rod Russe...In that case, I would say one cannot. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-78973887914618798152012-08-24T23:02:19.121+01:002012-08-24T23:02:19.121+01:00Forgive my ignorance but, am I right in thinking f...Forgive my ignorance but, am I right in thinking from the above text that a dog gets his/her vet check after they win a prize and not before they enter the show ring? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31735941472039666942012-08-24T21:32:50.268+01:002012-08-24T21:32:50.268+01:00"More organs means more human!"
Which i..."More organs means more human!"<br /><br />Which is strangely appropriate when talking about some breeds, where more hair means more Afghan, and less legs means more Dachshund, and evidently more skin means more Neo.Jesshttp://cynoanarchist.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-6964135961798396772012-08-24T19:13:15.069+01:002012-08-24T19:13:15.069+01:00I agree with you Borderwars. The people responsib...I agree with you Borderwars. The people responsible for making the breed healthier are normally those involved in making it unhealthy in the first place.<br /><br />I've seen and heard the arrogance so often...certain people do have inflated egos, and certain dogs are used to promote those egos. <br /><br />I much prefer the bitch she owns. <br /><br />Ectropion can cause problems one day...and none the next. The breeders should be breeding dogs without it...simples! Annie Macfarlanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-13806636169702089032012-08-24T17:20:14.935+01:002012-08-24T17:20:14.935+01:00Good that vet checks are nibbling away at some of ...Good that vet checks are nibbling away at some of the unhealthy extremes to which the preferences of the show ring have pushed dog breeding. Not surprising that there are differences of opinion and inconsistent results from vet checks.<br /><br />Physical appearance is an unbalanced indicator of health. The dramatics of health checks in the show ring shouldn't detract from more holistic approaches. Concern about skin folds and ectropian is a bit like getting dramatic about zits, physique, or low pigmentation in humans. The cult of the blond Aryan, muscle-man, or the anorexic look is a bit like show ring stupidity. These have health implications, but focus on them is not an efficient route to good health. There are many breeds that look fine and suffer severely compromised lifespans due to high frequency of certain diseases. Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-23132351742703818892012-08-24T12:51:19.721+01:002012-08-24T12:51:19.721+01:00Ummmm..................I just don't get it cou...Ummmm..................I just don't get it could someone please explain why some people insist on inflicting pain and suffering on the animals they claim to love and "bust their guts" for? Perhaps those that think this outrageous exaggeration looks nice should carry a couple of bags of sugar off their chins, have their skin chaffing with every move and not be allowed to close their eyes all day and maybe then they may consider how the dog feels rather than how it looks, does anyone have an explanation how this look may benefit the dog? a few light wrinkles may look distinctive but masses of skin folds with lots of loose heavy skin, red raw eyes etc. is just hideously unsightly and dare i say such deformities and defects should have no place in the show ring at allAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76455531526199063312012-08-24T12:20:04.551+01:002012-08-24T12:20:04.551+01:00I posted yesterday but it has been lost....but bas...I posted yesterday but it has been lost....but basically while human vets do the vet checks there will be differences of opinion in borderline cases even if two vets saw the dog on the same day.<br />In this case two vets saw the dog on different days. Ectropion can appear worse in a tired dog than a fresh one; the eyes may be redder or have more discharge on some days than others (outdoors, hot day, lots of dust vs air conditioned inside); skin conditions can wax and wane.<br />Perhaps the dog did not 'pass with flying colours' the first vet check but just passed. The next time he just fails. He could have just been pipped to first place by another dog on either day; same outcry? Or an acceptance of divergent opinions?<br />Health and health testing are also two different side of a coin; a dog can definitley pass a number of health checks and yet have other health issues!<br />Unfortunatley someone who has done a lot to improve her breeds health (though maybe not enough yet) is looking like a really bad loser by reacting in this way. The inconsitency in vet checks could have been discussed without her publicly throwing her toys out of the pram.<br />VPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-67732461019340823742012-08-24T04:11:03.174+01:002012-08-24T04:11:03.174+01:00* The dog has Ectropion, this is admitted, but the...* The dog has Ectropion, this is admitted, but then Ms. Slater tries to characterize this as a simple issue of poor conformation. It's not. It's a health and welfare issue, it is not a simple lack of aesthetics!<br /><br />* The second factor, I contend, of "scarring and hair loss to jowl" is also a health and welfare issue and NOT an old bite scar as Ms. Slater contends.<br /><br />I've outlined the details in my post, <a href="http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2012/08/mastino-fails-owner-wails.html" rel="nofollow">Mastino Fails, Owner Wails</a>, but the essence of the argument is this:<br /><br />- Blue Mastinos (as all Blue dogs) are susceptible to Color Mutant Alopecia which causes hair loss and scarring. <br /><br />- Mastinos have poor immune systems consistent with their small gene pool due to being reconstituted from only a few dogs and the inevitable inbreeding. This can lead to several conditions that would cause inflamed skin, loss of hair, and scaring; e.g. Demodex, Hypothyroidism, etc.<br /><br />- Mastinos have grossly excessive amounts of skin on their face which not only causes drooling and the placing of mouth bacteria on to the skin, they also constantly soil their facial skin when they eat and drink. The folds are perfect places to harbor bacteria leading to facial pyoderma, acne, etc. <br /><br />I took a screen capture of Ms. Slater's post on Facebook of this dog's face and her response. You can view it on my post. Her interpretation of the situation is not encouraging. She knew she was "pushing the envelope" and "treading the line" with this dog. Sadly she can't see that this breed stepped over that line decades ago and is now firmly in the realm of inhumane and gross exaggeration at the expense of health and well-being of the dogs. <br /><br />This dog is not NEAR any such line, it's miles over it. That Ms. Slater thinks the line is close is troubling. BorderWarshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09410343987050560739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76044668857033533202012-08-24T02:46:43.068+01:002012-08-24T02:46:43.068+01:00question marks in the eyes of who? Stupid ignorant...question marks in the eyes of who? Stupid ignorant people?<br /><br />>they may stay away from shows but continue breeding, without getting the assesment that the show ring provides - perhaps allowing additional problems to appear in the breed<br /><br />Oh how will breeders access their dogs without putting them in the show ring. Outside of the show ring, there is no other ways to access dogs.<br /><br />>There will be no incentive for breeders to aim to produce dogs that could pass the vet checks if they are not being shown either.<br /><br />Again, you seem to have a pretty low opinion of breeders. I would imagine producing dogs that don't suffer is a pretty strong incentive. But maybe you are right and for many breeders, that is not an incentive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-1767918915110573882012-08-24T01:40:19.564+01:002012-08-24T01:40:19.564+01:00It isn't funny, but it is, in a sad way. "...It isn't funny, but it is, in a sad way. "He has all this healthy <i>skin</i>!"<br /><br />It puts me in mind of an Invader Zim episode (yes, it's a children's cartoon, bear with me) wherein the alien main character was stealing/absorbing people's organs (cartoon). At the end, a nurse at the school said "Look at this nice healthy boy. He has so many <i>organs</i>!"Jenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10562151546770315227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-1322422689661234422012-08-24T01:01:34.786+01:002012-08-24T01:01:34.786+01:00Well, it's really hard to comment without hear...Well, it's really hard to comment without hearing what the vet says. It is entirely possible that the dog had clear eyes one day and red and irritated ones another day if the dog has ectropian then something as simple as a windy or dusty area might put his eyes over the threshold for irritation. <br /><br />I really liked Kim's lighter bitch. It does sound like she is a dedicated breeder who wants the best for her dogs. I still think, though, that breeders of these extreme breeds have blinders on when they look at their animals. But if the dog was failed incorrectly, that should still be rectified. Without knowing more about the judge's decision, I suppose it's just hard to say.Bethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12227696501175450622012-08-23T23:36:43.931+01:002012-08-23T23:36:43.931+01:00Part 2..
I do not think Kim's reaction is unr...Part 2..<br /><br />I do not think Kim's reaction is unreasonable either. Once a dog has failed a vet check then that undoubtedly puts a question mark over it for the rest of its time in the show ring and additionally over its breeding potential. It goes well beyond the receipt of a piece of card and competing at the next level. Future judges may be reluctant to select the dog for BOB on the basis it may fail again - which reflects badly on them. Breeders may be reluctant to use the dog for stud duties, inspite of his good health tests and may turn instead to an inferior dog. Kim is correct to say exhibitors will be nervous to continue competing, especially if dogs of their breed reguarly fail. With entries costing so much they may stay away from shows but continue breeding, without getting the assesment that the show ring provides - perhaps allowing additional problems to appear in the breed. There will be no incentive for breeders to aim to produce dogs that could pass the vet checks if they are not being shown either. If the dog has failed fairly on the guidelines set out by the KC then that is sad but acceptable. However, if it has been failed due to mis-interpretation or the vet being too 'picky' then there is certainly a case for contention.<br /><br />I think too that many of you have misinterpretated the reason for Kim's anger at the apparent appathy of Mr Dean. I very much doubt she would have expected him to be able to over-rule the vet's desicion based solely on who she was, but he may have been able to confirm that the desicion had been made correctly based on the written criteria of the vet checks, if there was some doubt that the vet was being over zealous. Clearly some of the checks done at Crufts (with the pen torch) went beyond their remit and it would have been a simple matter for a senior figure at the KC to be on hand to confirm the checks were consistant and adhering to the guidance. No exhibitors should receive preferential treatment at any stage in the judging/checking process. However, when an exhibitor who is playing a pivotal role to assist and develop health improvements within the breed, is so disinfranchised by apathy from the KC then one is left questioning whether the KC has decided to disown rather than support the breeds under scruitiny. I sincerely hope this is not that case as it contradicts everything the KC is supposed to stand for. Julianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-11527293320578870022012-08-23T23:17:44.155+01:002012-08-23T23:17:44.155+01:00I really do not understand the hoo ha over this. S...I really do not understand the hoo ha over this. So a dog failed a vet check one day and passed another. Why wouldnt it?<br />Different day, different vet, different conditions, different opinion.<br /><br />Ms Slater was delighted to take the bouquets surley she should be happy to take the brickbats?<br /><br />I am sure she is a nice person and I am sure she loves her dogs and her breed, but she needs to get over it<br /><br />It amazes me how many bredeers have such large egos they cannot take a little critisism. And as for that comment "I told him I wasn’t a bog standard exhibitor and this wasn’t a bog standard dog"<br /><br />Get over it sister! What gives you the right to put yourself over everyone else?<br /><br />Manwhil Jemmima continues to critisise the kennel club whatever thet do....I notice that the vet escapes critisism <br /><br />Some things never change.......<br /><br />CarolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com