tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post7249820312754176252..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Ronnie Irving - voice of America? Voice of reason?Jemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-63202200063349349422014-07-18T22:11:17.702+01:002014-07-18T22:11:17.702+01:00Although the coat type is genetic, the stripping o...Although the coat type is genetic, the stripping of coats, particularly in some terrier breeds, is due to show culture. The sculpting of how the stripping is done can also hide many show faults, which defeats the whole point of showing - not that that is always a bad thing - but the poor dogs suffer from some types of grooming. I'm not talking about pulling loose dead undercoat, but of stripping and working a coat without regard for the dog whose coat it is.<br /><br />The extreme poodle grooming, where dogs are dyed with food coloring and trimmed to look like bison, dragons, or cartoon characters, is not always bad, certainly not like stripping in terriers with wiry coats (which are usually not wiry until after they are stripped, before that the coat is sort of like a poodle - longer under-coat than over-coat.).<br /><br />I would rather have terriers shown clipped like pet mini Schnauzers are often done. This looks nice but doesn't hurt the dog, and only has to be done every few months. I thought that Border Terriers were shown more natural, but a breeder/shower said her dogs took days of stripping to get just right. Nice, cute little dogs with not too much extreme of anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-61047266315866080502014-06-06T13:57:34.060+01:002014-06-06T13:57:34.060+01:00Sound words, and really R.I. should look behind hi...Sound words, and really R.I. should look behind him before he thinks he can right the AKC. Because whilst ever we see the abuse of pedigree dogs bred to KC standards then he is not squeaky clean. He could have acted more proactively, he could have stopped a lot of the practices, he can't say he couldn't, because he was "in charge". So his "shift" as KC Chairman was pretty futile and then when Steve Dean bumbled along, halleluha, a vet, surely he will do something positive, be seen to stop it, explain why it has to stop, do something positive, but no, he too has hidden behind his Border Terriers, let them do the barking, and just carry on, raking in his salary, watching the clock, hoping nothing disastrous happens on his "shift" until he decides he's had enough and walks off into the sunset. "Job done" - I'm off, dogs? what dogs? "Oh well, they are somebody else's problem now." Infuriating that these people seem to have no shame, or self pride.Georginanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-54822376592200269352014-06-06T06:43:06.084+01:002014-06-06T06:43:06.084+01:00The reason why you see so much research into disea...The reason why you see so much research into disease done on purebred dogs is because they ARE genetically impoverished. It is far, far easier to find genes associated with disease if there are relatively few genetic variants in the population that you're looking at. In an out-breeding population like humans, you can look at manymanymanymany humans for manymanymanymany years and find no (or very few) genetic associations with disease. Since purebred dogs are inbreeding populations, you have to look through far fewer genes to find an association. <br /><br />25% of Blue-spotted Gooberhounds get osteosarcoma. Let's find a gene association. Since all Gooberhounds descend from a population of ten founders, it will be far easier to find a gene or a group of genes associated with osteosarcoma. Once we find that gene, we then look at humans with osteosarcoma to see if we find the same genes. Dogs and humans are genetically very similar.<br /><br />Studies using dogs to find genetic defects that cause disease in humans have been all over the news the last few years. It is very difficult to get funding for these types of studies if the outcome is only predicted to help dogs; far easier if there is a human element.Jesshttp://desertwindhounds.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-30706476017740057132014-06-06T03:04:37.588+01:002014-06-06T03:04:37.588+01:00And here's a bet the dishonourable Andrew Brac...And here's a bet the dishonourable Andrew Brace top UK judge goes on to work from "within". Hypocrites simple.<br /><br />They don't care where they get noticed as long as they are.<br /><br />As far as being "more effective from within", I would disagree. One fantastic example is the work of the antiapartheid movement in the UK and the Netherlands (I was very active in that org) that brought about in many cases total boycotts of South Africa the isolation that ultimately played a major role in bringing down that regime.<br /><br />Far as I can see Ronnie Irving is just hopping on the merry bandwagon. He should concentrate on the KCs troubles if he wants to be taken seriously.<br /><br />Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-15986195174829050052014-06-05T12:48:01.285+01:002014-06-05T12:48:01.285+01:00Im lazily thinking, its very hot here at the momen...Im lazily thinking, its very hot here at the moment 35%c in the evening but there should be an acronym for dogs that suffer genetic health problems due to bad breeding practises. <br /><br />Maybe just PDS pedigree dog syndrome or BPDS badly bred pedigree... PIDS, Pedigree inbred Dog Syndrome... something like that.<br /><br />Might help if it sounded like a word. <br /><br />Its just so tedious always typing the same sentence or paragraph.<br /><br />Maybe just PDS if it's not taken, that covers everything basically. It's not discriminating against all pedigree dogs just identifying sadly those that have it in bucket loads. Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-27809187164242585722014-06-05T12:00:45.748+01:002014-06-05T12:00:45.748+01:00But but but is this not the case with almost all s...But but but is this not the case with almost all show pedigree dog problems? Health issues, due to how they are bred?<br /><br />I know this sounds shocking to a lot of people but health testing "kinda" falls into the same pot of paint as cancer reserach in pedigree dogs.<br /><br />It was very fasionable to blame diet on all these ills. Im sure it plays a big part in fact, when you think about heart disease in humans due to partialy hydrogenated oils you can easily see how dog food might easily be a silent killer too, but the biggest cause in health problems must be in the way they are bred.<br /><br />Research should be done but only on non-pedigree dogs, not even f1 crosses of breeds but genticaly sound landraces of Pariah dog. It makes no sense to do it on dogs who are being intentionaly badly bred none at all. The issues of health and inbreeding are too mixed up confused to make any findings pertinent.<br /><br />This is like spending millions on reasearch for diseases in humans that practise incest, when its pretty much clear that if they stopped inbreeding those diseases would almost certainly dissapear. <br /><br />Thats not to say these examples cant teach us anything becaue they probably can but it won't help the humans involved or the dogs.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-81199677762147688552014-06-04T16:38:05.731+01:002014-06-04T16:38:05.731+01:00But sadly I doubt the conversation will take place...But sadly I doubt the conversation will take place in 100 years hence.Georginanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-90739438791011035692014-06-04T16:36:47.930+01:002014-06-04T16:36:47.930+01:00Yes, it's a bit like chasing the tail of the d...Yes, it's a bit like chasing the tail of the dog that chases it's tail. In reality there would be no need to invest huge sums of money for cancer research when the easiest and cheapest way to resolve cancer (in the main in pedigree dogs) is for the KCs internationally to take control of the gross deformities by addressing the breeding programmes. And, of course, there was a discussion some time ago about spreading the damage by cross breeding i.e. instead of holding back the tide in it's entirety, it could spread inherited problems across a wider genetic pool which then completely damages the dog population overall. Somebody with more intelligence and knowledge than I will come into the forum who could then advise on the best breeding policy and the safest way forward for our dogs. It seems to me that there has been so much damage done that it may be irreversible, and that we lose dogs slowly over decades because the breeds highlighted above are so sick that perhaps they shouldn't be used in the genetic pool at all? Don't forget that I an a dunderhead thus my comments are from "the side of the road, not the middle"!!Georginanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-11183980311181698222014-06-04T10:51:54.127+01:002014-06-04T10:51:54.127+01:00Crossbreeds get cancer too. But the issue is as yo...Crossbreeds get cancer too. But the issue is as you say, Fran. The AKC is not looking at the cases of cancer in this sense. It is funding research aimed at treatment/cure. <br /><br />And that's great. But here's the thing:<br /><br />Scotties - 20 times the rate of bladder cancer<br />Flatcoats - 50 per cent dead of cancer by 8/9<br />Bernese - ditto but younger<br />Irish Water Spaniels - yep, the same<br />Giant breeds - riddled with osteosarcoma<br /><br />These cancers, so much higher than the ambient rate in dogs - are a direct result of the current breeding paradigm...of inbreeding dogs in small gene pools/ breeding dogs that are too big/grow too fast etc.<br /><br />So... open up those gene pools, increase genetic diversity, and breed for smaller/slower-growing dogs.<br /><br />This will lower the rate of cancer in many breeds. Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-64422544055945130662014-06-04T10:15:27.912+01:002014-06-04T10:15:27.912+01:00Let's change the example. Say the AKC was fund...Let's change the example. Say the AKC was funding research into brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome (BOAS), a common breathing problem in brachycephalic breeds. From one point of view, their donation is laudible, but if there were no brachycephalic breeds, there would be no BOAS, and the research would be unnecessary. <br /><br />I'm sure there are many causes of cancer, but if the main one is found to be down to linebreeding/inbreeding, how likely is the AKC to change its policy on registering litters of dogs with a high COI? Will it ban matings from related dogs? Bearing in mind that even matings between first cousins, if done often enough, will cause problems. If their research is to find out the genetic root of health problems so they can implement better breeding strategies, I would be the first to applaud them. However, going on their track record, I doubt this is the case. Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-72067516607601218422014-06-04T09:15:24.088+01:002014-06-04T09:15:24.088+01:00bestuvall you have a real problem about understand...bestuvall you have a real problem about understanding the written word, your statements above are incomprehensible. Nobody is ignoring the validity of what you are saying but when they respond you think it is in a negative response. They've READ what you say and they have answered with another opinion slant. It is as simple as that, cool down and relax. We are all heated about the indignities, the cruelty, the dishonesty within the purebred dog world but if we all responded in the way you are doing all discussion would stop immediately. It is an open forum, for dog loving concerned people from all across the World, and the fact we all have different view points and experience is what could become a sound platform from which reparation of current breeding practices may well benefit. No? Again I apologise for appearing to be sanctimonious but like you I and the other contributors love our dogs and want the best for them now and the future. Georginanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-57935131872091147802014-06-04T04:36:35.052+01:002014-06-04T04:36:35.052+01:00yes we would all be so much better off if the AKC ...yes we would all be so much better off if the AKC had just kept that money.. and not funded any research. honestly I have no idea what is wrong with people who can take a well meaning program that may save the lives of dogs ( and even YOUR dog) and twist it around to somehow make it seem something rotten and criminal.. and evidently cruel. shame on all of you . bestuvallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010527907760825413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-67521382205573519252014-06-04T00:03:46.332+01:002014-06-04T00:03:46.332+01:00Fran, in that peer review, the term "bias&quo...Fran, in that peer review, the term "bias" is not about "conflict of interest" type of bias.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-56083168752046753142014-06-03T21:22:04.498+01:002014-06-03T21:22:04.498+01:00Nice post Fran.
Jemima have you read Pukka's ...Nice post Fran.<br /><br />Jemima have you read Pukka's Promise yet!? I'm still waiting for your review! :)<br /><br />Some good stuff in there regarding inbreeding, the 'science' behind spaying and neutering and basically Ted's commitment to honouring the dog as a companion and not an ideal. Peer reviewed literature aswell.<br /><br />NicolaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-62657766432856104612014-06-03T13:39:28.882+01:002014-06-03T13:39:28.882+01:00Inbreeding is one of the main causes of cancer, so...Inbreeding is one of the main causes of cancer, so, yes. <br /><br />There is also the problem of biased research, highlighted in Ben Goldacres book 'Bad Pharma', where the results of the research are fudged so they're in line with the wishes of the funding body. Meaning, if the research found that inbreeding/line-breeding caused cancer, then these results either wouldn't be published, or the link would be weakened, or...<br /><br />Bias in research is suprisingly common. Here's a review of the protective effect of spaying on mammary tumours; the primary health benefit recounted as a reason to spay. <br /><br />"13 reports in English-language peer-reviewed journals addressed the association between neutering/age at neutering and mammary tumours. Nine were judged to have a high risk of bias. The remaining four were classified as having a moderate risk of bias... Due to the limited evidence available and the risk of bias in the published results, the evidence that neutering reduces the risk of mammary neoplasia, and the evidence that age at neutering has an effect, are judged to be weak and are not a sound basis for firm recommendations."<br /><br />http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1748-5827.2011.01220.x/abstract Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-39208494023050408212014-06-03T12:13:02.315+01:002014-06-03T12:13:02.315+01:00Oh my! 'Humans are not animals...'
What t...Oh my! 'Humans are not animals...'<br /><br />What the feck do you think we actually are then? Robots!? genetics are genetics bestuvall....denial is a very dangerous place to be...<br /><br />Pick up a text book or two on evolutionary biology and learn a thing or two. Better still, why don't you actually read this very excellent blog and learn a thing or two here rather than attack people who make very valid points based on actual evidence? <br /><br />You make a lot of inaccurate assumptions about people on here whom you know nothing about. You're right when you say let the adults do the real work...because we can't trust the likes of you! <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-79135665489868040552014-06-03T07:51:14.860+01:002014-06-03T07:51:14.860+01:00By the way stripping is done from four weeks of ag...By the way stripping is done from four weeks of age, that is a small puppy with soft tender skin. A puppy displaying a thicker hair shaft is going to be a more promising prospect, more show worthy.<br /><br />I bought a Sealyham many many years ago which had been hand stripped before she came home to me, she was only three months old when I got her but had been stripped as a six week old pup.<br /><br />One of the complicating issues in this is its not only a showing problem. Working Borders what's left of them that haven't been been crossed are treated in the same way. They make useful crosses in fact.<br /><br />Its not an us versus them type issue so it tends to be swept under the carpet by everyone leaving suffering dogs as a result.<br /><br />It's a travesty promoted and accepted!Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-3871286603506697292014-06-03T07:33:42.127+01:002014-06-03T07:33:42.127+01:00Correction: Steven Dean is the incumbent chairpers...Correction: Steven Dean is the incumbent chairperson of the KC and still keeps Border terriers.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-19056262115489373402014-06-03T04:53:51.409+01:002014-06-03T04:53:51.409+01:00It appears that you think that only pure bred dogs...It appears that you think that only pure bred dogs get cancer or that the AKC causes cancer. Can you really be saying that? This research helps ALL dogs.. not just pure breds. You spoke at the HSUS conference. How much money have they given to research to help animals. . oh wait I forgot they are against research using animals.. even the research that helps animals. much less humans.<br />Who cares who gives the money as long as the research is on going to help dogs.? Are you implying that the research done is somehow jaded or false.. or paid for and skewed? Shame on you. bestuvallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16010527907760825413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12814951245219088192014-06-03T04:23:07.082+01:002014-06-03T04:23:07.082+01:00Yes quite @ 2 June 2014 16:14
I don't hate po...Yes quite @ 2 June 2014 16:14<br /><br />I don't hate poodles they do its true have some of the most chronic problems as far as genetic diversity goes but I don't hate them at all.<br /><br />The poodle, most poodles in fact are extremely intelligent wonderful lively happy dogs. I have known personally three wonderful charming black standard poodles. In fact I have often thought a cuddle of these would suit me very much, unfortunately only five would do so I have in fact been living a life of modest restraint as far as poodles go especially the big ones.<br /><br />The dogs I knew lived an enviable life outside of the show world, their coat was kept naturally, they could play, run, swim and do exactly what they liked on a rather awesome small farm and country Inn. <br /><br />Once a year during the hottest months they were fully clipped out which made them a little embarrassed but none the worse for wear. In fact once or twice it was I who did the clipping. After the clip for treat I would take them down to the dam to chase ducks and get all muddy.<br /><br />Its not a difficult coat just a good brushing and its ready to go.<br /><br />This is not the same thing as what show dogs have to endure at all.<br /><br />In fact I was just looking up "acceptable show clips for poodles" when I came across this little gem (;<br /><br />http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.hk/2012/06/poodles-are-not-posh.html<br /><br />On the issue of nail clipping (and coat) I also agree with 2 June 2014 18:27 a dog should be wearing down its nails living a normal active life.<br /><br />There will always be dogs that need their nails done, I've never had one but some older dogs or poorly dogs might or little puppies that might be lacerating their mums teats. They don't like it all and it's often difficult to see where the quick ends if the nail is dark. <br /><br />A little tip if you have a garden or space make sure there is some concrete area where they often run from as this will naturally keep the nails in tip top order. But all the activities a dog should be doing like digging and jumping around the countryside will keep them just right. In fact if they are being walked enough in cities the same should apply.<br /><br /><br />Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-83827861003615270872014-06-03T03:23:42.277+01:002014-06-03T03:23:42.277+01:00Yes.Yes.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-15545199534936538442014-06-03T02:37:19.583+01:002014-06-03T02:37:19.583+01:00PED The Uncut Version, the directors cut etc, YES!...PED The Uncut Version, the directors cut etc, YES! Plus updates.<br /><br />On "Ronnies" breed preferance the Border terrier I've just in fact written an urgent post on "Country Life" concerning Borders, I will include it here. It's seems he's not the only ex KC chairman who had/has a soft spot for the breed Steven Dean also kept them. <br /><br />By the way isn't time The kennel Club had a woman chairperson! It would be sexist to say they would do a better job but it's worth a try, not so?<br /><br />On the Border terrier I dont thin all is well and the KC standard needs changing, here follows the post I wrote on Country Life. The breed is/has become very popular so its very pertinent more so than ever:<br /><br />Quoting myself here "Yes stripping is extremely painful no matter how surreptitiously you do it. Believe me it will notice.<br /><br />It can wreck a dogs character turning it into a snarling biting psychotic victim of mans folly. Some dogs stoically accept it which to my mind is even more of a betrayal of a little dogs big heart.<br /><br />It should be outlawed in my long considered opinion and experience of the practise. <br /><br />Unfortunately it is done on many terrier breeds as the standards calls for hard or wiry coats. Unfortunately its not something they are born with, so they pluck it from the live hair follicle hoping it grows thicker shafts as a result. In show dogs this coat wins over a softer coat so its positively encouraged practise. Even if a dogs coat did just fall out or "blow" its not convieniantly "blowing" in time for a dog show so its ripped out in advance to grow back in time for the event.<br /><br />The standard for the breed under the AKC as described in Country Life is not perfect and needs changing to make this practise the outdated barbaric thing it is unacceptable.<br /><br />When a coat is apparently "blown" they will tell you it just comes out?? This is not the case it is still attached to live nerve endings, otherwise a simple brushing would remove it like with any other dog moulting. This doesn't even happen with Borders they don't moult once a year.<br /><br />The borders coat is the same as any other dogs, they are a dog breed not a species with thick hair shafts like a wild pig might have. <br /><br />The standard calls for something unnatural, akin to cropped tails and ear mutilation.<br /><br />Border terriers are perfectly able to live with a clipped coat don't let anyone convince you otherwise. And don't be blinded by the pain you are causing by sending the little dog off to a grooming parlour for them to do the dirty for you.<br /><br />It is a lovely little dog and doesn't deserve this treatment.<br /><br />If you love your merry Border terrier dont torture it, its pure vanity of the worst kind.<br /><br /><br />Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-71119454928699665732014-06-03T01:51:22.790+01:002014-06-03T01:51:22.790+01:00I think most of this conversation took place over ...I think most of this conversation took place over a century ago. Genetic and Evolutionary understanding have made the (A)KC arguments sound simply foolish. hwylohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00829171962074769432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-84068441614663578962014-06-02T23:01:27.579+01:002014-06-02T23:01:27.579+01:00Bestuvall anyone can talk the talk but so many fre...Bestuvall anyone can talk the talk but so many freaking dogs can't walk the walk especially on a hot day........<br /><br />In the grand scheme of things, health has shit all to do with it, but one must be seen to be proactive to the activists.........if health really were at the forefront then breeders and kennel clubs would admit it's all gone a bit wrong and actively seek to rectify some seriously devastating issues FOR DOGS, just have a look at the latest post of the noseless pug and tell me how health seminars are gonna help that poor fecker?<br /><br />In today's modern world, when society is striving for ethical acceptance is there really a place for being judgmental based purely on looks.......I mean is there? Really???<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-53313531229681910112014-06-02T22:56:13.885+01:002014-06-02T22:56:13.885+01:00That's great, Jan. But let's face it - it&...That's great, Jan. But let's face it - it's the equivalent to the Tobacco Manufacturers' Association funding research into lung cancer.<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.com