tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post5513261508331401964..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Shaggy dogs and salvationJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-85131952707195957722014-06-19T08:23:31.004+01:002014-06-19T08:23:31.004+01:00Length of coat depends on the age of the dog, and ...Length of coat depends on the age of the dog, and depending on when you last brushed it out it will look longer and shorter. I have plenty of pictures of my boy looking like photo's 1 and 2 and some closer to 3. There is no magic but an outdoor dog will look like it has a shorter coat as it gets caught up, tangles and so on when wet. Also the hair will get damaged and break if the dog is outside and running through gorse, heather and grass, keeping it shorter through the working.<br /> <br />Your making out that these are "definitive" looks for the breed in 1903 or 1949, and that's a groomed to todays standard coat. Go look at http://www.ramsgrovebeardies.com/Foundation-Beardies-1 and then go on Flickr and look at photos of non-show BCs, brushed and unbrushed and you'll see how much the grooming changes the way the coat presents for full show Beardies. Putting up a photo of the Crufts champion in full groom does not represent how most dogs coats are. Of course a coat like that is impractical, and most BCs don't have a coat like that as natural damage and breakage keeps it shorter. Grooming is also about comfort and I remmember meeting badly matted Boarder collies on farms in the 70's as shepherds didn't spend the time brushing them out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-60442621268916659292013-06-15T13:02:05.001+01:002013-06-15T13:02:05.001+01:00Any beardie mating can be tested for inbreeding fa...Any beardie mating can be tested for inbreeding factor and infact Brambledales come out with the lowest inbred factor, some as low as 0. There are a few sites, Beacon included that allow you to do this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-8422157011887388802013-06-15T12:50:46.428+01:002013-06-15T12:50:46.428+01:00She doesn't overly care about KC acceptance fo...She doesn't overly care about KC acceptance for her sake but cares about the breed she loves. She was previously for many years a KC registered breeder but did not like the way the breed was going so chose, of her own volition, to take working stock into her line as the gene pool in KC beardies was becoming too small. The reason for KC acceptance is if her own dogs are accepted back into the KC breed register it will broaden the gene pool as the current inbreeding ratio of KC beardies is too high. Many KC lines now have AI problems coming in. A broader gene pool can only benefit the breed. Having "no problems" is not down to luck but down to careful breeding and good research into stud dogs. I know of apparently reputable KC beardie breeders who are not open about the difficulties in their own lines and even still breed bitches who have been know to produce off spring who later develop problems,mostly AI related.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41542740747318856802013-06-14T21:03:57.311+01:002013-06-14T21:03:57.311+01:00The most inbred dogs in Beardie history came from ...The most inbred dogs in Beardie history came from Brambledale. There is no other breeder, today or "yesteryear", that even comes close to the numbers of litters from the same bitch, the number of repeat breedings or the number of heavily inbred litters. For someone who is familiar with Beardie history, the attempt to tout Brambledale as some kind of breed savior is ridiculous and only goes to show how little substance is most likely behind any other article on this blog.Charlotte Laning Vrethammarhttp://www.oldsmuggler.senoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-35998688619518373432012-03-07T20:36:31.164+00:002012-03-07T20:36:31.164+00:00But now Jeff Sampson is retiring...??But now Jeff Sampson is retiring...??Liz Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-23166220885592353312012-03-02T11:33:36.884+00:002012-03-02T11:33:36.884+00:00http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showto...http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=254105<br /><br />Jemima, PLEASE look at this. Sadly merles do not always remain in the hands of those who appreciate the possible problems they can carry. Litters like this can be the result. Poor, poor puppies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-80271117232594374552012-03-01T11:58:22.075+00:002012-03-01T11:58:22.075+00:00http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?sho
P...http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?sho<br /><br />PLEASE Jemima, have look at this link<br /><br />wendywendy hineshttp://www.ramsgrovebeardies.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41399515884447027772011-11-21T12:53:56.032+00:002011-11-21T12:53:56.032+00:00A few comments on the Finnish study mentioned by P...A few comments on the Finnish study mentioned by Pertti Kellomaki....<br /><br /><br />Genetics is much more complicated than an “interesting numbers game”. When reporting scientific papers, it is vitally important to quote the source and authors of such papers so that others can critically appraise them. Beacon for Health reproduced a paper published in Finland. It involved detailed study of only 77 Beardies which had been selected from a larger group, on the grounds they were as far as possible not closely related. Only 48 had been bred in Finland and of those 32 had an imported parent. So there was no random selection, an essential requirement to avoiding distortion of the results.<br /><br />The importance of widening the gene pool has been well understood in Finland as dogs in this study came from Sweden, Great Britain, France, Belgium, Norway, the USA, Czech Republic, Poland, Spain and Germany.<br /><br />Pertti misleads you when he states "Genetic testing of Bearded Collies has so far revealed seven different haplotypes" The study refers only to the haplotypes to be found on chromosome 12 in the region known as the Major Histocompatibility Complex (otherwise referred to as the MHC or sometimes as the Dog Leucocyte Antigen, DLA). This area is significant when studying autoimune disorders.<br /><br />The 100 or so genes that form the DLA are grouped together in threes to form Haplotypes. Pertti implies that these haplotypes are responsible for all genetic diversity. This is totally untrue as these Haplotypes relate only to possible predisposition to - or protection from - some auto immune disorders, on a small part of one chromosome. <br /><br />Pertti suggest that introducing a single dog with different haplotypes is all that is needed to make a significant difference in genetic diversity. Seven different haplotypes were identified in Beardies at this location compared with only five in the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, and eight in Lowchens and Finnish hounds, Beardies appear to have similar numbers to other breeds<br /><br />The study also showed that in 80% of the Beardies studied the same two dominant haplotypes were present with the other 5 scattered amongst the other 20% of dogs. It could well be equally true that this combination of dominant haplotypes in Beardies is why more than 90% of the breed are healthy normal dogs. Much more study is needed to see if particular combinations should be preferred to give protection, or avoided because they cause a predisposition. It cannot be argued that out crossing to produce more variety of haplotypes is essential, or even desirable, on the basis of this very small study. The study has raised interesting ideas, but now has to be reproduced in different countries with numbers in excess of a 1000 or so before any statistical significance can be deduced from it,<br /><br />Dr K C Hines MBBS FRSH MRCGP; Wendy Hines MScKen Hines Wendy Hinesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-36210688470123152312011-01-25T12:30:23.642+00:002011-01-25T12:30:23.642+00:00Jemima
Have a look at BorderWars 22 January 2011 ...Jemima<br /><br />Have a look at BorderWars 22 January 2011 00:21 again re the swimming pool analogy. For one dog to make a difference across the whole genepool it or progeny would have to sire all (or many)of the bitches. Then this returns to the original problem, of genetic diversity, limited number of stud dogs being used etc.<br /><br />This is one reason why I don't hold much, along with others, regarding the official line of the Beardie resulting from 3 Polish Lowland being introduced in 1514. 3 dogs at a time when communication and travel was limited, albeit we are dealing with stock and droving dogs, would make very little difference across the whole Beardie population. Just a minimal addition diluted into the main genepool.<br /><br />Neither do I believe the earlier accounts of the addition of the Komondor, from 14th C trade with the Magyar people, made much difference. Though its description may ring a bell with the Working Bearded Collie: The Komondor's temperament is like that of most livestock guarding dogs;[8] it is calm and steady when things are normal, but in case of trouble, the dog will fearlessly defend its charges. It was bred to think and act independently and make decisions on his own.<br /><br />My own belief is the WBC has a bloodline that goes back to pre bronze Age early Neolithic or before. In Scotland there was sufficient population to maintain a healthy breed, but geographically isolated enough to maintain the bloodline pure. Hopefully the geneticists one day might prove me right. One reason why I think it is important to maintain the WBC and not allow it to genetically drift into cream carpet..etc..docile domesticity. It may be hold one of the most ancient genepools of all dogs and should be a national treasure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-82409566360108845582011-01-25T10:26:59.503+00:002011-01-25T10:26:59.503+00:00This is, in my opinion, a good and unbiased analys...This is, in my opinion, a good and unbiased analysis of the present situation.Martine Gsellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-33962472425754344452011-01-25T08:18:26.575+00:002011-01-25T08:18:26.575+00:00There are breeders of working Beardies who are ver...There are breeders of working Beardies who are very passionate about keeping the lines pure, and there are also those - who are interested mainly in the dog as a dog and its working ability - who will happily cross in Border Collie (actually "working sheepdog" as I doubt they would wish to use the KC Border Collies), to improve the trainability and work ethic, while still preserving a shaggy coat and some cute whiskers.<br />Selecting a stud dog requires research and real thought, knowledge of your bitch's lines, qualities and weaknesses, and should never be a decision made lightly. Unfortunately the demand for puppies means that most buyers care little about what is behind their pup, and are influenced more by arbitrary factors such as price, pretty markings, and availability, not wanting to travel far, pay too much, or wait too long. They will "breeder hop" to bypass waiting lists and as far as many are concerned one breeder and their dogs is pretty much the same as any other.<br />Until the puppy-buying public wake up and smell the coffee, there is little motivation for breeders to become any more than "producers of puppies" with quality control down to their own personal integrity, and in that respect breeders of Bearded Collies are streets ahead of those of many other breeds.<br />The merle argument aside, Bearded Collie breeders are lucky to have the possibility of "outside blood" whether they decide to take advantage or not. Many breeds are not so fortunate and could easily be headed for extinction soonLiz Jayhttp://www.spanglefish.com/Talraznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-84962734157012662012011-01-24T23:22:05.628+00:002011-01-24T23:22:05.628+00:00Why are so many of you anonymous? If you have som...Why are so many of you anonymous? If you have something worthwhile to say then say it but have the good manners to identify yourself.Stephen Applebynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-39843597674150183542011-01-24T21:46:34.043+00:002011-01-24T21:46:34.043+00:00Thanks Jemima. As of yet I am just a wannabe breed...Thanks Jemima. As of yet I am just a wannabe breeder, but I would eventually want to become one. We run a small hobby farm with a handful of sheep, and I am quite interested in the working qualities of the Beardie.<br /><br />Someone asked why a breeder of registered Beardies would be interested in working lines at all. For me the answer is pretty simple. In my neck of the woods (Finland), there are no unregistered working beardies running around. In practice this means that if I want to breed Beardies, mine need to be registered unless I'm prepared to go really far afield. My dream come true would be a registered foundation bitch from working lines. This would give me lots freedom to choose from those registered Beardies that I have seen do nice sheep work.Pertti Kellomäkihttp://www.kesannon.finoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-73294896618701572192011-01-24T21:20:35.771+00:002011-01-24T21:20:35.771+00:00Wow... just shows how useful, genetically, just on...Wow... just shows how useful, genetically, just one new dog could be. Thanks for this, Pertti. Are you a breeder yourself?Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41003010881021072072011-01-24T21:04:02.313+00:002011-01-24T21:04:02.313+00:00Genetic diversity is an interesting numbers game. ...Genetic diversity is an interesting numbers game. Genetic testing of Bearded Collies has so far revealed seven different haplotypes (see e.g. http://www.beaconforhealth.org/DLA_raporttiEnglish.pdf). <br /><br />There is evidence that homozygocity with respect to the DLA genes is not desirable, and the seven haplotypes give 21 heterozygous combinations: 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 34, 35, 36, 37, 45, 46, 47, 56, 57, and 67. DNA is symmetric, so e.g. 45 and 54 are really the same combination.<br /><br />Adding a single new haplotype would give rise to seven new heterozygous combinations 18, 28, 38, 48, 58, 68, and 78. <br /><br />A second new haplotype would give rise to eight further heterozygous combinations 19, 29, 39, 49, 59, 69, 79, and 89.<br /><br />In other words, bringing in just one dog with two previously unencountered haplotypes would raise the number of possible heterozygous combinations from 21 to 36, an increase of 15/21 = 71%.<br /><br />More diversity translates to more freedom in breeding. Assume that a breeder has a bitch with the haplotypes 12. If one wants to avoid homozygosity, the potential partners must not have haplotypes 1 or 2, which leaves the combinations 34, 35, 36, 37, 45, 46, 47, 56, 57, and 67. If the haplotypes were evenly distributed in the population (which they sadly are not), this would mean 10/21 = 48% of dogs as potential partners.<br /><br />In a population with the two hypothetical new haplotypes, the further potential partners are 38, 48, 58, 68, 78, 39, 49, 59, 69, 79, and 89. The portion of potential partners in the population is 21/36 = 58%.Pertti Kellomäkinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-52538890699637537122011-01-24T20:15:40.065+00:002011-01-24T20:15:40.065+00:00When talking about evolution, it is good to keep i...When talking about evolution, it is good to keep in mind that while good health, fitness for (whatever) purpose, etc. are all important, they are just indirect factors in genetic change. At the end all that matters is who gets to reproduce and rear the next generation to a point where it can further reproduce. A superb specimen that does not leave offspring could just as well not have existed in evolutionary terms.<br /><br />Evolutionary change is usually relatively slow, because no genotype enjoys drastically better chances of producing offspring. This is not a case is breeding of domestic animals like dogs. Humans have almost total control over pure bred dog reproduction, which can result in rapid genetic change.<br /><br />Because humans are part of nature too, genetic change brought about by man is just as "natural" as change caused by predators eating the slower running animals.Pertti Kellomäkinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-38485601098061996912011-01-24T10:03:51.481+00:002011-01-24T10:03:51.481+00:00Over the weekend of 20/21 August 2011 there will b...Over the weekend of 20/21 August 2011 there will be a canine themed event in Perth Scotland. Dog Days. The format is being put together now.<br /><br />As well as the disc dog, agility, obedience, HTM etc competitions and displays, there will be speakers and discussions on many aspects of the relationship between dogs and man.<br /><br />Everyone with an interest in dogs is invited to turn up and be involved or contribute to the event. The themes we have been discussing here will be covered.<br /><br />Anyone can contact me and register their interest, get more information and most importantly have their input into what they would like to see or do at the event. <br /><br />Over the next month the UK dog world will know of the event. It will be what we make it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-22178643900994626852011-01-24T09:23:07.971+00:002011-01-24T09:23:07.971+00:00And we do not breed from 'SICKLY, IMMUNE-COMPR...And we do not breed from 'SICKLY, IMMUNE-COMPROMISED DOGS' you cheeky mare, coments like that are slanderous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-36576757641332762362011-01-24T05:38:21.925+00:002011-01-24T05:38:21.925+00:00Mary & Asher I like your thinking on the genet...Mary & Asher I like your thinking on the genetic testing anyway. For those who believe show Beardies will breed themselves into oblivion, much as this is unfair to the dogs. Why are you fighting it? Sounds to me like you have a self-solving problem. Leave it alone and it will either come to show breeders themselves calling for the open register, or the breed will decline and the working Beardie will rule! I only wish I could believe in the nobility of mankind. That wars are fought over freedom not oil? That countries invade to improve infrastructure, not steal resources. Sadly I see no historic or current evidence for it. It's always about the money, however you try and wrap it up! There may indeed be a few stoic noble people out there... but I bet they don't give their puppies to good homes for nothing. Not one of them! Perhaps I have grown too cynical in life, but everyone knows there is a significant price difference per puppy between show Beardies and working Beardies. and once again for Mary &amo; asher, the problem with merles in Beardies is that it can be almost impossible to spot, so a dog could be mis-registered as a dominant colour resulting in a merle-merle mating, which all breeds already with merle ackonwledge can have serious side effects. Why add a colour into an already beautifully varied breed that could harm future offspring?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12644556132375202152011-01-24T05:27:19.663+00:002011-01-24T05:27:19.663+00:00"Are we really going to throw that away to fo..."Are we really going to throw that away to force them to conform to some cream carpet, walk-on-a-Sunday, domestic docility. WBCs are the greatest dogs in the world. Don't change the bred, change peoples' understanding of them." Yes Celticlion I'm afraid I am going to say we must. We live in a society that doesn't understand this side of dogs at all... the number of deaths from dog attacks proves this and I agree that owners should choose the breed responsibly, but the Rottie, Staff etc. brigade haven't managed this and the darker side of these breeds has been publically highlighted. And No I am not anti these breeds as they are. No I am not saying your ideal of the Beardie is wrong or should go, but sadly there are very few owners of your quality around and we live in a fastly growing society that is critical of dogs in general. What would the lovers of any breed prefer? The breed, or a banned breed? Yes dogs have lived in harmony with man for thousands of years... by adapting to man's needs. We can't live in the past where Beardies are working dogs, they have to live in today and so do we.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-56021075106135639082011-01-24T02:22:05.941+00:002011-01-24T02:22:05.941+00:00Someone suggested I might find this blog interesti...Someone suggested I might find this blog interesting but I feel like the introduction and some of the posts are an advertisement for the "one true and pure Beardie breeder." I am all for discussing how to breed for good health, reasonable coats, and correct structure but working line Beardies are not for everybody.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-58143370927748404492011-01-23T23:35:08.432+00:002011-01-23T23:35:08.432+00:00I am all for expanding the gene pool with these wo...I am all for expanding the gene pool with these working Beardies. By all means, if you are a breeder who thinks that is a horrible idea, then don't breed your Beardies to them, but that is no reason to prevent others from doing so. As for the issue of the merle gene being a devastating health issue, that has not been my experience, except in merle to merle matings. I am not a breeder, but have been around plenty if single merle dogs (Shelties, Australian Shepherds, and Rough Collies), and I can assure you none of them are deaf or blind. Should the merle gene be noted on the registration so people can avid accidentally breeding 2 merles? Of course. But the merle gene in and of itself has never caused problems in any of the merles I have met or known long term. As for worrying that these working Beardies would bring in genetic diseases unknown to the KC Beardies, that is simple. All you have to do is have the breed club REQUIRE all possible genetic testing of both sire & dam prior to a breeding being approved. If the breeding is not approved, and an irresponsible breeder goes ahead anyway, make the rule be that the puppies cannot be registered, shown, and worked in trial.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-53309739144710257562011-01-23T23:25:24.027+00:002011-01-23T23:25:24.027+00:00Yeah, you're right...why bother? Let's jus...Yeah, you're right...why bother? Let's just leave the conformation breeders to it. Except it's not that simple because there is overwhelming evidence - as Jess says - that the way most are breeding dogs today is simply not viable long-term.. Clearly impossible for some out there to accept, but change is not being suggesed in order to stir the shit or fuel ego or any of the other unpleasant motivations ascribed to those who lobby for change. It's because you are breeding your inreasingly sickly, immune-compromised dogs into a genetic cul-de-sac and you just don't see it. And the dogs deserve better.Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-77893678154714812472011-01-23T22:57:42.412+00:002011-01-23T22:57:42.412+00:00So, ''beggining to think that buying a dog...So, ''beggining to think that buying a dog from a breeder is encouraging them in unhealthy acts''<br />So as a breeder that complies with the Kennel Club guidelines for health issues, is classed as unhealthy for the dog, any litter bred with me is carefully thought about, mostly out-crossed with health and temperament first and foremost. Let the working beardie be a working beardie and let things be. <br />Just need to know what happens if these 'working dogs' bring in more health issues, will we hold Jemima responsible for stiring the shit once again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-57972038998141308942011-01-23T22:46:49.789+00:002011-01-23T22:46:49.789+00:00Too true close breeding leads to problems and this...Too true close breeding leads to problems and this must be avoided by breeders. Also, people are using labels to describe the differences that could be mis-understood. As we have no agreed common labels, this is bound to happen.. working, show, look-a-like, old-fashioned. Arguing semantics isn't going to suddenly make one side comply with the other. Once again I am left wondering why there is an argument at all. If all that has been said is taken into account. The majority of show people are happy with the show breed as it stands. Working people are happy with their working breed as it stands... so why is there an argument for opening the register. Are the show breeders requesting it? If this is a request coming from working breeders, why? What is the benefit to them? If they had wanted show dogs, they could have bought one in the first place. From all the arguments I really fail to see why working breeders would want to mix what they keep arguing are inferior over-coated bred-for-their-looks dogs into their lines... and the resistance coming from show breeders would indicate that a majority of them will never use a dog from working lines, or any of its progeny. So opening the register won't broaden the gene pool at all, will it? So why are working breeders even interested? I actually don't think these comments are aimed at Lynn Sharpe at all, if the register opens by KC regs it won't just be her dogs coming in, and I believe that is where the resistance lies. With no wish to inflame Lynn has approached breeding her dogs in the same way as a good show breeder does.. careful selection, health tests, out-crossing... Oh hang in isn't that what everybody is trying to do... and wasn't that where Mrs W. started with the foundation stock. Perhaps if we want to do something bold in Beardies we should out-cross to another breed, as was originally done? No? Why not? The sceptic in me is beginning to wonder where the money is in all this. I can't really see a true benefit, I can't see a logical reason, so now I have to ask where's the financial gain? and to whom?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com