tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post2361565339955035562..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Toller x pups 6-8 weeks oldJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-56441971991545138382013-03-15T22:50:48.179+00:002013-03-15T22:50:48.179+00:00Oh yes, it definitely happens. All you have to do ...Oh yes, it definitely happens. All you have to do is watch how they play, even more exaggerated when their over excitement for water kicks in. And for some reason it does fascinate the ducks.Katienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-26057774104708034112013-03-15T22:48:38.885+00:002013-03-15T22:48:38.885+00:00I honestly have no reason to WANT to doubt this in...I honestly have no reason to WANT to doubt this information, because if it's true I would want every Toller breeder to damn well know about it. But this really is not my experience at all, having been involved with many many Tollers in the UK I can't see how this statistic can be right. I can see how Terry is confused because something just rings false, it really is bizarre. Yes, there are problems with SRMA (autoimmune) and I have seen a fair few mast cell tumours popping up in certain lines but this is nothing compared to the cancer incidence I hear of in flatcoats (as Jemima says). <br /><br />I really hope my comment isn't taken as a typical toller owner defensive stance, as I'd be incredibly worried if this was true. I'm just struggling to believe these stats when I have had very different experiencesKatienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-5200721776598375522012-02-24T22:45:05.204+00:002012-02-24T22:45:05.204+00:00Jemima, I trust that your forthcoming documentary ...Jemima, I trust that your forthcoming documentary will cover this subject?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-69796708366438075482012-01-17T06:16:54.101+00:002012-01-17T06:16:54.101+00:00"ut the history of the breed (dancing with du..."ut the history of the breed (dancing with ducks) is nonsense. This is simply a decent cross that someone decided to write up an absurd romantic history for in order to sell a few more dogs."<br /><br />Sorry, P, but you are wrong. Foxes toll. It is a characteristic of some prey species that they will be attracted to a predator behaving strangely. Tollers toll ducks and geese, and this trait is bred into them after some 200 or more years of selection for it. I have watched my own dogs do it. One of my Tollers actually lured a flock of Mallards right up out of the water and onto the bank.Terry McNameehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08281262532935874334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-18981575920587232922012-01-17T06:10:23.292+00:002012-01-17T06:10:23.292+00:00One of my Tollers died of cancer (confirmed by nec...One of my Tollers died of cancer (confirmed by necropsy) at age 12 years 2 months. Another I suspect died of cancer, but not confirmed, died at age 15 years 3 months. That is not dying young. Both became ill very suddenly and died within 2 to 3 months after the first symptoms appeared. Prior to that, they were healthy.<br /><br />Cancer is not necessarily caused by autoimmune disease. Pollution can play a significant role. If you live near a highly industrialized area as I did at the time (several steel mills and other factories 15 minutes' drive away, with the wind carrying contaminants towards where I lived) then that, too, can be a serious factor in the development of cancer and other diseases in animals as well as people.Terry McNameehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08281262532935874334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31819575823290508392012-01-17T06:01:27.617+00:002012-01-17T06:01:27.617+00:00Based on several decades of experience with Toller...Based on several decades of experience with Tollers, this age at death of 6.4 years has to be skewed. Certainly in Canada, nearly all of the Tollers I have known and known about lived past 12. Many lived past 14 and quite a few to 16 or even beyond. I think the oldest I heard of was 19.<br /><br />This is the first I have ever heard, in all these years, that Tollers were a short-lived breed. I have been involved with Tollers in one way or another since 1974, so I have known a lot of Tollers, Toller owners and Toller breeders during that time.Terry McNameehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08281262532935874334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-64189484413358025782011-11-06T00:46:16.546+00:002011-11-06T00:46:16.546+00:00Cute Puppies!
However, I am a bit perplexed about...Cute Puppies!<br /><br />However, I am a bit perplexed about the outcrossing with an aussie shepherd. <br />Would have though crossing with another type of retriever, or at least a gundog would be more useful, especially for working qualities. <br /><br />I'm not a strong believer in "hypbrid vigor" where simply crossing two purebreds is invloved. Firstly, the parents themselves need to be healthy. Working at a vet clinic, I see many 1st crosses with significant health problems that stems from one or both of the breeds that make up that particular cross. Eg. Crosssing a lab and poodle can still result in PRA, Elbow and Hip dysplasia, these are present in both breeds. <br />In my experience it is the true "Heinz" variety mutts that tend to be more hardy and have characterisitics which could be attributed to hybrid vigour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-73549123913396489562011-09-24T14:47:48.125+01:002011-09-24T14:47:48.125+01:00Yes, but I think it is an interesting veer...
Jem...Yes, but I think it is an interesting veer...<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-43392162730066496172011-09-24T14:33:24.475+01:002011-09-24T14:33:24.475+01:00Is it me or have we veered off the original idea o...Is it me or have we veered off the original idea of this post?grapfhicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05351840619814949772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-19625190978928550332011-09-22T21:37:58.112+01:002011-09-22T21:37:58.112+01:00This discussion is fascinating. I liked Coppinger&...This discussion is fascinating. I liked Coppinger's book because it brought forward a new theory that could be thrown into the pot in relation to the ancestry of our dogs. The fact that his theory has allegedly been disproved is even more interesting. I will have a look at the links given by Retrieverman. I always say there is still much for us to learn about our dogs. Thank you. <br /><br />Annie MacfarlaneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-72416952776739133252011-09-22T19:54:11.850+01:002011-09-22T19:54:11.850+01:00I'm not going to debate here with you and post...I'm not going to debate here with you and post links and/or titles of different studies, or explain basic biology. I don't have time for that. I do believe the self-domestication is the most probable origin of dogs as a species, you don't - so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.Nanookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076176630645335950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-78483581898099056422011-09-22T16:07:02.362+01:002011-09-22T16:07:02.362+01:00Here's the answer to it all:
http://tinyurl.c...Here's the answer to it all:<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/coppingeriswrongRetrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-83331186002291992642011-09-22T15:59:18.346+01:002011-09-22T15:59:18.346+01:00The analogy is not that someone is saying that dog...The analogy is not that someone is saying that dogs are to wolves what humans are to chimps.<br /><br />I'm not even saying that dogs are to wolves as chimps are to bonobos, although that is much closer. Bonobos really are very closely related to chimp, and might be a subpscies. But we're kind of wedded to them be different for scientific reasons. Genetically, calling them separate species doesn't make much sense. And I would argue the same for polar bears and brown bears. You may laugh at that one, but all polar bears alive today descend from a single Irish brown bear, which crossed with a polar bear in Ireland and then bred back into the polar population. However, polar bears likely evolved in North America from brown bears in Alaska. It's jut that the only surviving polar bear matriline is from an Irish brown bear.<br /><br />I am saying that dogs are to wolves what we are to Neanderthals and Denisovan hominin. We might as well be considered the same species with those two creatures, because all non-Sub-Saharan Africans have Neanderthal DNA, and people in parts of the South Pacific have Denisovan genes.<br /><br />Those creatures might have behaved very differently from us. They don't exist anymore, but it's really kind of hard for us to grasp what they were.<br /><br />The truth is they were another form of human, just as dogs are another form of wolf.<br /><br />Interfertility isn't the main metric of species. Coyotes, golden jackals, and Ethiopian wolves can all cross with dogs and produce fertile offspring. But they clearly speciated, for not all hybrids with these animals and dogs are fertile. But if you breed a dog to a wolf, it's just like breeding a Labrador to a golden retriever.<br /><br />This has had some effect on wolf populations, for all wolf populations that carry melanism tha are alive today, especially in North America, are the result of cross-breeding with domestic dogs. Black and unusually colored coyotes are also the result of interbreeding with dogs. That means that the majority of dog-coyote crosses must be fertile, for it was also determined recently that virtually all coyote populations have some dog or wolf contribution to their genome.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-33100758450288289922011-09-22T15:44:05.360+01:002011-09-22T15:44:05.360+01:00Put Coppinger's book with Lorenz's Man Mee...Put Coppinger's book with Lorenz's Man Meets Dog. Nice reading. Not exactly accurate.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-38871915186566281922011-09-22T15:42:37.305+01:002011-09-22T15:42:37.305+01:00BTW,
Just because I'm saying dogs and wolves ...BTW,<br /><br />Just because I'm saying dogs and wolves belong to the same species doesn't mean that I buy into the discredited dominance model for dog behavior, unlike PBurns above.<br /><br />When I am saying dogs are wolves, I am saying that they are a type of wolf that has been domesticated, in the same way that Yorkshire hog is a wild boar that has been domesticated. Coppinger uses Canis familiaris. I am very uncomfortable about this, because, with the exception of the alpaca and guanaco and the domestic guinea pig, we don't say domestic species are a different species from their wild ancestor.<br /><br />Coppinger suggests using Canis familiaris because dogs have a different ecological role than wolves. Well, which wolves? And if we take it this far, then we have a bunch of species that make up Canis lupus, even if they are related by phylogeny. Different wolf subspecies live very different lives depending upon where they live-- and they vary in size from the 25-pound Arabian wolves of Israel, which have the same small dog gene that most small dogs have, to very large wolves in Alaska, that might be 140 pounds. <br /><br />There are also wolves that when socialized to people have behaved like dogs, and have even been used as working animal. There was a police officer in Vienna who took a wolf cub from a den in Bosnia, while he was in the army. This wolf cub proved to be a better police dog than the German shepherds in the Vienna police department. That's an unusual animal. So was Wags, the wolf that Adolph Murie kept as a pet at Denali. He trusted her with his children, and she was very social and friendly with all people and all dogs. Jess, who comments on here, has an Azawakh that is very reactive and trusts only a few people. Yet, he clearly looks like a dog, and was raised just like a normal dog. He is still quite feral in his behavior, despite being a fully domesticated dog.<br /><br />Coppinger has no answer for dogs and wolves outside his dichotomy.<br /><br />He is right in being skeptical of mtDNA studies that say dogs are 135,000 years old, but he got nothing to answer on the nuclear DNA studies that say they are more than twice as old as he posits.<br /><br />He also has nothing on the cognitive research that has happened at Eotovos Lorand University, except to make a weasly statement about the Clever Hans Effect. If you read the studies, they clearly did control for Clever Hans, as has Brian Hare of Duke University and as Michael Thomasello and Juliane Kaminski of the Max Planck Institute. Domestication has enhanced certain cognitive abilities in dogs, which is the opposite of what Coppinger posits. Dogs are just stupid, developmentally delayed wolves in his model.<br /><br />It is simply not so.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-59074335592239726952011-09-22T15:29:34.078+01:002011-09-22T15:29:34.078+01:00I know this might be your pet theory, Nanook, but ...I know this might be your pet theory, Nanook, but there is very little evidence for it.<br /><br />Especially if you look at it from a multidisciplinary perspective, as Mark Derr has done.<br /><br />Biologists generally don't know much about anthropology or historiography.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-7375092607221787702011-09-22T15:19:35.947+01:002011-09-22T15:19:35.947+01:00Actually, humans are apes.
Dogs are wolves in tha...Actually, humans are apes.<br /><br />Dogs are wolves in that an Arabian wolf is a wolf that lives in the Middle Eastern Desert and an Arctic wolf is a wolf that lives in the Arctic. Arctic wolves form large packs to hunt large prey and live in very cold climates. Most Arabian wolves form family groups no larger than a mated pair and scavenge. Are you going to say that they are separate species, too? <br /><br />I read all of Coppinger's book. He has no good answer at all, because the actual date that the dog genome project found for the separation between dogs and wolves in 27,000 years before present. Exactly how does he handle that early date? He doesn't!<br /><br />I'm sorry but Coppinger has written a highly reductionist, highly inaccurate piece of drivel that does not comport with any other evidence, except that which he picks and chooses. Unfortunately, it is simplistic, which is why graduate students all believe it. <br /><br />Robert Wayne of UCLA considers Mark Derr to be an expert enough to have brought him in as a lecturer at his dog domestication symposium. http://dma.ucla.edu/events/calendar/?ID=664<br /><br />Wayne is the leading molecular geneticist who has examine domestic dog and wolf natural history. His only European counterpart is Peter Savolainen-- who is primarly an mtDNA expert.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-75831762999600424442011-09-22T13:54:19.493+01:002011-09-22T13:54:19.493+01:00Has anyone read the book "A Wolf in the Famil...Has anyone read the book "A Wolf in the Family" by Jerome Hellmuth? It was originally published in 1964. There are some copies knocking about on Amazon. It's about Kunu, a she-wolf, who was adopted from a US Zoo as a tiny cub and lived with a family. I read it when younger and am just about to read it again. Can't recommend it highly enough.Catherinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-37285513971133644632011-09-22T11:19:58.973+01:002011-09-22T11:19:58.973+01:00Humans share a common ancestor with apes. Does thi...Humans share a common ancestor with apes. Does this make us apes? Just to say a dog shares a common ancestor with wolves DOES INDEED NOT MAKE THEM WOLVES!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-8718036206902600912011-09-21T16:37:14.366+01:002011-09-21T16:37:14.366+01:00Great comment at 15:09 Dave !Great comment at 15:09 Dave !Rebeccanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-45175673521718566522011-09-21T13:29:38.252+01:002011-09-21T13:29:38.252+01:00Please send me the one that's waving to me. Go...Please send me the one that's waving to me. Gotta love cute puppy photos.Katehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06308591087937874068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-84398806105602885952011-09-21T06:27:37.893+01:002011-09-21T06:27:37.893+01:00Read Chapter 10 of dr. Coppinger's book, he ex...Read Chapter 10 of dr. Coppinger's book, he explains it there.Nanookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076176630645335950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76190543026666978532011-09-20T22:40:30.576+01:002011-09-20T22:40:30.576+01:00Mark Derr has a degree from Johns Hopkins. I don&#...Mark Derr has a degree from Johns Hopkins. I don't know what it's in, but it's really a wasted question to ask. He's done the research. Coppinger's dates do not add up. It's that simple.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-4909341496178322822011-09-20T22:28:34.041+01:002011-09-20T22:28:34.041+01:00Well, Coppinger has a huge date problem. If he'...Well, Coppinger has a huge date problem. If he's correct, then dogs would not be older than 12,000 years before present.<br /><br />And we have definite dog remains from 14,000 year ago, how does ol' Ray deal with that? When there were no villages.<br /><br />He doesn't.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31364549267918062802011-09-20T20:08:44.757+01:002011-09-20T20:08:44.757+01:00Thanks for the links. I don't agree with your ...Thanks for the links. I don't agree with your or Mark Derr's writing (most of it anyway), but it's nice to read different opinions. :)<br /><br />PS: Is Mark Derr a biologist (MSc or PhD)?Nanookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08076176630645335950noreply@blogger.com