tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post2317461805565481347..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: A Golden Retriever... apparently...Jemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger107125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-42795143842514227232017-11-13T17:05:20.176+00:002017-11-13T17:05:20.176+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31594907532204891842017-11-13T17:05:06.515+00:002017-11-13T17:05:06.515+00:00It says in the name "GOLDEN retriever." ...It says in the name "GOLDEN retriever." Not bleached retriever.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12028824973983830852016-01-06T00:58:58.946+00:002016-01-06T00:58:58.946+00:00Every once and a while I search the Internet to se...Every once and a while I search the Internet to see if there are reports on dwarfism in goldens. We have an adult Golden who was diagnosed with a genetic dwarfism related to the same kind of selected dwarfism that you see in (for example) basset hounds, where the joints of the legs do not grow as they should. At the time of the diagnosis (2007), he was the only Golden known to have this genetic flaw actually "officially" diagnosed. He also has behavior, digestive, and heart murmur issues which suggest other traits associated with the diagnosis. We have his normal, fully sized sister. The breeder learned of the diagnosis and was careful not to breed that particular pair again, as it seems to be a double recessive trait. The student at the teaching veterinary hospital was going to publish these results, but I don't think she ever did. Just passing this along for general interest . . . Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-46151083707822721902015-10-11T20:30:01.000+01:002015-10-11T20:30:01.000+01:00I invite those who have posted here to view this p...I invite those who have posted here to view this photo:<br /><br />http://www.duboisdelarayere.com/males/Furyo.htm<br /><br />This dog is Furyo Noroy du Plessy, owned by the same breeder as "Seal" and a "Seal" son. Furyo was a large dog who one could hardly accuse of being short on leg...and a World Champion. I have spent time with Furyo's offspring (Seal's grandchildren) in the South of Spain at the fantastic Terra di Siena kennels, doing a days work and looking fantastic. <br /><br />All is not as it can seem from a simple photograph. As Julie stated, you need to look at a dogs past and what it produces. In Seals case, he has a great pedigree - dogs such as Stanroph Soldier Boy, Perrimay Hugo of Fenwood, Gatchell's Jazz Player and Paudell Easter Plantaganet at Kerrien have been outstanding sires. <br /><br />One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread and is a personal opinion of mine, is I believe that one of the contributing factors to the problems is the trend towards making up champions while they are still very young dogs that seems to be increasingly prevalent in Europe. They look great in the show ring at 2 and 3 years old but by age 6 or 7 when they should be in their prime and coming into their own, they have gone over the top. This is why I like to see a kennels dogs when they are mature, as good stock always tastes better when it has been slow cooked!<br /><br />I recently saw Dasmask Hugoboss of Fenwood win the veteran class at the Gibraltar International Dig show. He was in stunning condition for a dog that was almost 11, solid as a rock, moving soundly and would have been my choice of BOS and possibly BOB. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05370497375587261919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-38548747143374403272015-10-11T16:42:28.863+01:002015-10-11T16:42:28.863+01:00Personally, I believe that the single most importa...Personally, I believe that the single most important point within the breed standard is the following: “Kindly, friendly and confident.” Given that 99% of Golden’s are sold to pet homes, these attributes are essential for pet owners, especially those with children. Anything else is secondary. The average pet owner doesn’t understand or care about any of the more subtle conformation characteristics that breeders and exhibitors obsess about, they just want a beautiful dog to love that will love them back and be an integral part of the family. That is the modern Golden’s main purpose in life.<br /><br />With the changes in lifestyle over the last century, the number of dogs required to work in the field have diminished greatly and this is reflected in the show ring, with blockier, heavier showy dogs with longer coats. Arguably, these dogs are more aesthetically beautiful than their working bred cousins, however, in my humble opinion Judges and responsible breeders should strive to avoid extremes that take the breed completely away from its working origins or move it away from a more traditional Golden Retriever silhouette. It would also be nice if some breeders took more into account the working attributes of the dogs they use for breeding, rather than basing decisions purely on aesthetics.<br /> <br />One of the other problems in controlling breed characteristics is the breeding by pet owners with little or no knowledge who either just want a puppy out of their pet or seek to make a quick buck from a litter of puppies with a neighbours Golden as well as the awful puppy farms akin to production lines that only care about the bottom line.<br /><br />In conclusion, like most breeds, the Golden has its problems, but these in no way affect its ability to form part of a loving family or be an athletic ball-fetching fun loving dog within the modern breed aesthetics.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05370497375587261919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-39956012274898080752015-10-11T16:42:04.962+01:002015-10-11T16:42:04.962+01:00I would like to throw my oar into this discussion,...I would like to throw my oar into this discussion, albeit belatedly. I am posting in two parts due to the length of the post.<br /><br />I believe it is morally unethical to use a photograph to highlight perceived faults without permission from the breeder/owner. It is nigh on impossible to judge a dog based on a photograph. Photographs can be deceiving for a number of reasons; faults can be hidden by good trimming or by how the dog has been posed (“stacked”) for the photograph. For instance, a dog that appears to have a well angulated upper arm could in fact instead have a prominent breastbone, so creating the impression of good angulation when indeed it is lacking! Additionally, I find some of the comments in this thread disrespectful, unproductive and unconducive to rational discussion. I am disappointed that despite requests from the breeders, the photograph has not been removed.<br /><br />In this instance, both breeders mentioned here have superb reputations within Golden Retriever circles both for their breeding programmes and integrity, and their stud dogs have been used because they produce high quality offspring of a type and temperament sought by other breeders. They have dedicated decades to producing good quality dogs to now have this work undermined by a single photograph taken out of context. I have long admired their lines and the lines behind their dogs and would have no hesitation in using their dogs in a future breeding programme or mating a bitch to one of their dogs. Another point is that while a stud dog or brood bitch may have its faults, and most do, it is the positive attributes they pass on that are important. One may decide to use a dog in a breeding programme aware of a dogs faults but seeking those positive attributes that their offspring inherit. <br /><br />Yes, shortness of leg and length of body are increasingly apparent in the breed and is a concern to many involved in it. In a conversation recently with one of the most respected Golden Retriever breeders and Judges, he lamented the increase in these traits. I partly blame judges for this; unfortunately, I see winning dogs with significant faults that win because they are showy, well handled and have luxurious coats that more easily catch the eyes of Judges – especially non-breed specific ones. Unfortunately, as people become more accustomed to seeing these traits, they become the norm, to the point where we lose sight of what things used to be. (As an example, can anybody still remember how much tastier fresh veg of yesteryear was compared to today’s mass produced greenhouse produce).<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05370497375587261919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-46802990542663598422014-05-27T03:16:21.427+01:002014-05-27T03:16:21.427+01:00A little bit more sampling would have helped the a...A little bit more sampling would have helped the author's case a bit more. Also, why can't a breed change from what it originally looked like and how the breed was originally meant to function. If you take authors argument to its logical conclusion we are only left with wolves, well actually strands of RNA.<br /><br />I think if the modern golden retriever spec is healthy and suitable for the lifestyle most of these animals will lead, then i see nothing wrong with the evolution of the breed. <br /><br />seal is a gorgeous dog by the way. :) Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-48043988141129870882014-03-14T01:00:32.170+00:002014-03-14T01:00:32.170+00:00i had a friend whose parents seemed to manage to a...i had a friend whose parents seemed to manage to always get a goldie with about the same shape as this stud. they always got athritis not young but to soon. as far as how much did the vintage dog work probably a whole lot more than yours and most modern working dogs. people actually used to rely on their animals. lets not forget before breeds people just bred dogs that were the most useful making types. Your dog is not catastrophic but its not an improvement and uninspiring. Why are breeds that are supposed to be sporting being bred heavier? I really would like to know why are athletic builds with long legs being traded for bulky and short?However this dog is not as bad as some show labs yuck. as a breeder you are up to scrutiny as you are in a way small or great affecting the inheritance of the human race. Dogs along with all domesticated animals and plants are all the inheritance of all people and we should all question always if we are improving. Bad selection not only brings diseases to animals but plants as well which is why we eat the cavendish banana and not the gros michel. Genetic diversity is not only a hot issue for animals but for the crops we consume as well. In short these decisions effect us all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-27565605259344849812014-02-10T21:25:30.628+00:002014-02-10T21:25:30.628+00:00Actually I am not defensive at all. I take the cri...Actually I am not defensive at all. I take the criticism of the changing of the breed quite seriously... it has changed and I take a shot at answering why on here, although I am certainly not the be all and end all of knowledge! <br />I am asking you (and others too, just in case you feel defensive) some questions. No entire breed can be held up by a single photograph. <br /><br />What do we know about the original dog? I do not wish to say anything about him that would be considered detrimental as I have no idea of the answers to any questions although I have taken time to look back and consider his pedigree, which has a Very high co-efficient. He obviously had no health tests such as are done today as they weren't around when he was alive. He seems to have lived to a good age as he sired a litter at approximately 10 years old if the data is to be believed.<br /><br />The role for which he was bred is still alive but nowhere near as popular today. I assume that he worked however who is to say how frequently this was... did he do a full season? How can we know? <br /><br />I certainly do not have a 'superior role in all this'. Unlike those who wish to condemn an entire breed's development on one photograph! <br /><br />What I do say is that I have acted ethically in the breeding of our dogs, which cannot be said for the behaviour of JH in her use of photo and hiding behind hostage in USA, or the use of linking to a website that is not hers and without permission. <br /><br />It may not be illegal... but it certainly is unethical.Juliehttp://orange.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-53381947463777493032014-01-04T14:49:39.088+00:002014-01-04T14:49:39.088+00:00Because names are actually irrelevant. What matter...Because names are actually irrelevant. What matters is the issue. Anonomous commenters, providing they remain civil, are detached from names and are therefore freeing themselves from any sort of bias and judgement that may be attached to their name with previous comments. Impartiality.<br /><br />Who I am and what my name is really has nothing of any note whatsoever in life. My actions have consequences though, as does everybody elses. Ncluding pedigree dog breeders. The problem with a lot of pedigree dog breeders is that they can not detach their personal ego and feelings from any criticism about their work. Imagine if scientists working on a cure for cancer behaved in the same way. Science is independent of authority, ego and seeks the truth. If you are genuinely breeding dogs for the correct reasons, then you would welcome and relish the challenge of any criticism that comes your way. Because if you ARE breeding for the correct reasons, then what have you got to hide?<br /><br />I am no one of any note in the dog world and am the guardian of an adopted mutt. Given the general snobbery and attitude experienced on here by breeders who DO sign their names, I imagine they may very well turn their noses up at anything that I would have to say at pedigree dog breeding once they see my name attached to any future comments huh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-35693655075797644962014-01-01T18:20:05.201+00:002014-01-01T18:20:05.201+00:00Why are people not willing to sign their names on ...Why are people not willing to sign their names on here? Loads of folk using 'anonymous'. It isn't difficult to put your name to anything you say if you are willing to stand by it. It is just a little irritation to those of us willing to put our names down.Juliehttp://www.orange.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-51046855253497682013-12-29T09:03:12.891+00:002013-12-29T09:03:12.891+00:00The older style dog might have better structure an...The older style dog might have better structure and be more visually appealing to some but is it actually healthier? <br />I don't like the way show retrievers in general are going. Too heavy and yes, I agree they often have short legs. But to imply the dog is not healthy or that the short legs would affect his function as a pet is misleading. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-58882594239609097902013-12-25T22:17:54.443+00:002013-12-25T22:17:54.443+00:00'JH picked on this dog...'
Is the wha you...'JH picked on this dog...'<br /><br />Is the wha you really believe this blog is about?! 'Picking' on dogs!? Are we talking about children being emotionally bullied at school here? Or are we using evidence ( such as photographic evidence) to discuss concerns with pedigree dog breeding and the cult of the dog show world that upholds some warped ideas when it comes to healthy conformation?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-37451213789448913632013-12-25T22:13:25.436+00:002013-12-25T22:13:25.436+00:00Again, you're defensive. Your reactions depict...Again, you're defensive. Your reactions depict the very pathology at work here. Your response in all this has had an air of 'How dare you!' THAT is the meme that is so destructive for dogs. Because you actually believe that you have a superior role in all this.<br /><br />It's madness. Because when you DO compare those two pictures, the older picture has a better physical example of a dog. A dog that you may compare to any village dog. That is as nature intended. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-70781759612263478922013-12-23T17:52:58.693+00:002013-12-23T17:52:58.693+00:00http://retrieverman.net/2011/04/12/the-white-wavy-...http://retrieverman.net/2011/04/12/the-white-wavy-coated-retrievers-and-yellow-labradors-of-hyde/<br />Not all goldens looked in the past as the dog at the beginning of this postAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-63703641499882845582013-12-23T00:33:09.581+00:002013-12-23T00:33:09.581+00:00http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAXDZD058rA Another...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAXDZD058rA Another video, same dog.Retrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-79479293390095897632013-12-23T00:28:24.343+00:002013-12-23T00:28:24.343+00:00This is the kind of golden retriever that is norma...This is the kind of golden retriever that is normally used in North America, not the similarities to Haulstone Dan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pFhV3NL00ERetrievermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780519136583108632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31220968990328557182013-12-21T14:35:52.697+00:002013-12-21T14:35:52.697+00:00Jemima, discussions on conformation, construction ...Jemima, discussions on conformation, construction and working ability are fascinating and make for often lively comments amongst Golden Retriever breeders and owners. There is nothing wrong with debating this, there is everything wrong with debating this on Pedigree Dogs Exposed...the blog, and even more wrong with the publication of the owner, pedigree and web site. <br /><br />The programme Pedigree Dogs Exposed showed a number of dogs suffering from diseases and welfare issues that compromised the health of the animal. There is clearly no case to answer for here as Seal is healthy and sires healthy puppies.<br /><br />I can personally vouch for the breeding as I have two daughters from Seal`s father that are fit and healthy at 11 and a half and my paler one works on shoots (I have been working on shoots for over 12 years now).<br /><br />If you wanted to compare a Golden Retriever type of 80 years ago to the more modern day type why do it on this blog with all the inferences it carries, and even worse why name the dog and provide links to the pedigree and home page? What on earth could you have hoped to achieve by this? Other than seeing the distress and hurt of good breeders, and I still cannot understand why you deliberately would want to do so. <br /><br />So here is a suggestion, if you want a discussion on the finer points of conformation in Golden Retrievers please go and see them work, both in the field and as Guide dogs/PAT dogs/Obedience/Agility/Show competitors and then have this discussion on another blog more relevant to this sort of debate. <br /><br />As it is close to Christmas I do wish all the folk on this blog and others a very Merry Christmas, and let`s go forward looking at the positives of good breeding practices and reputable kennels and celebrate what they have to offer to the many pet owners delighted with their Golden Retrievers.gisellehttp://www.pascho.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-57414249064975667662013-12-21T12:30:25.385+00:002013-12-21T12:30:25.385+00:00At what point have I/we not been open to contructi...At what point have I/we not been open to contructive criticism? <br />Have I not at all points, made it clear that health, temperament and well-being are by far the most important issues?<br />Have I, at any point said that I would not have preferred a longer leg? BUT what has this dog produced? What genes has he carried forward? Are his progeny shorter-legged? Are they balanced? Has he carried forward positive attributes?<br />How has any criticism been constructive on here?Juliehttp://orange.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-7584363430053615642013-12-21T12:26:24.980+00:002013-12-21T12:26:24.980+00:00Julie, Blogger doesn't allow pix to be posted ...Julie, Blogger doesn't allow pix to be posted in the Comments. But you are very welcome to post links to those pictures to illustrate what you mean.Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-54955700631863173932013-12-21T12:22:52.068+00:002013-12-21T12:22:52.068+00:00JH picked on this dog from many others. Why?
There...JH picked on this dog from many others. Why?<br />There is no doubt that the breed HAS changed. Seal's DNA carries older type genes, and he has produced older 'type' goldens that have proven themselves in every way possible. Just as a red-haired parent can produce a black-haired child. <br /><br />The problem with using photos: what does Seal look like in the flesh? Most definitely NOT a great pyrenees! <br /><br />It is also true that the older 'type' of golden is highly unlikely to win in the conformation ring - yes judges are not often judging to the older 'type'. This does not necessarily mean that everyone is breeding to what 'judges' want.<br /><br />They are probably breeding more to what is required by the people who buy their puppies. Only a tiny fraction of the golden retrievers bred each year end up in the conformation ring. Surely our ultimate aim is to breed healthy and biddable puppies that are most likely to provide their owners with years of companionship, conforming to both the breed standard and what they want?<br /><br />Do you really want to reverse time and live with what you had in the 1930s? You are asking for time to stand still... this is not possible. <br /><br />Nutrition has improved bringing changes in growth/development. Standards of care have hopefully improved. Veterinary care has improved. It was not common for entire litters of pups to survive, but it is far more common these days. <br /><br />In an ideal world I would be able to show that many other Golden Retrievers do retain many of the attributes of the older 'type'... but JH is prohibiting this by not responding and allowing other photographs to be used therefore all I can do is reiterate: don't react from prejudice responding to one image. Go 'out there' and look! <br /><br />There is no refuting that changes have taken place. But why? Have they improved the health and welfare of the dog for fitness for MODERN day requirements? <br />To resist change when it actually does not help the dogs live a full and happy life is surely against the dogs' interests and those of their future owners. A high-energy older type might be at home out on a shoot, but is it likely to be happy in a normal pet home? Is it going to live a long, healthy life able to work in the field, as a PAT dog, as an assistance dog, as a family pet when called upon? <br /><br />A well-bred golden retriever should be able to do all that. It might not look completely like the older-type but it still retains breed characteristics that are correct and it can still fulfil its original purpose... maybe not in the same way/level but the fit for purpose stands. In fact, it can fulfil far more than it ever did before. It is still a golden retriever, even if you decide that there are aspects to the way it looks that you don't like. So go find one that you do like... there are very many 'out there'. <br />Why pick on a breed that is, in the majority, healthier than ever and able to serve its original purpose plus many new ones asked of it? <br />Will it face problems in later life? Both this dog's parents were/are healthy and simply succumbed to the ravages of old age. To have a sire that is the dog equivalent of 91 years old that is still chasing a ball, still figuring out how to get into the biscuit tub, has never shown any negative characteristics other than ignoring the recall if a pretty female is around and (touch wood) is healthy, is surely a good sign!<br />Jemima, Seal may have sired litters, but are they HEALTHY? Yes. <br />Are there enough breeding lines that do not have him in their pedigrees to ensure that the breeding co-efficient remains healthy? Of course, Yes. <br />Is he representative of the breed as a whole? No.<br />Have you been ethical in your use of image, link and implication? No.<br />Juliehttp://orange.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-89714190305771646872013-12-21T07:24:23.364+00:002013-12-21T07:24:23.364+00:00In some of his head shots, Seal could pass for a s...In some of his head shots, Seal could pass for a slightly off-white Great Pyrenees.Sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-38231067649868304822013-12-20T19:25:56.330+00:002013-12-20T19:25:56.330+00:00actually obesity is inherited. spend time with a f...actually obesity is inherited. spend time with a few different breeds and you would know that. I have cavaliers and another breed who are naturally slim . The cavaliers are greedier and put on weight much easier. <br /> I can feed my second breed anything and they stay skinny.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-77398660046033948642013-12-20T11:44:57.893+00:002013-12-20T11:44:57.893+00:00'Let alone the fact that health, temparement a...'Let alone the fact that health, temparement and welfare are so much more important than looks'<br /><br />So why so defensive to some constructive criticism if looks are unimportant?<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-26480615133482754432013-12-20T09:16:59.817+00:002013-12-20T09:16:59.817+00:00To extend the discussion, this pretty neatly illus...To extend the discussion, this pretty neatly illustrates the issue, too:<br /><br />http://fuglydog.tumblr.com/page/61Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.com