tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post2168360435627051000..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: More Mastino woesJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-64374781639058625492023-11-03T02:31:46.730+00:002023-11-03T02:31:46.730+00:00Lol you're just like the idiotically affronted...Lol you're just like the idiotically affronted breeders who claim purebred working bassets can't possibly be purebred because they look...normal? She didn't make the pics unflattering, the dogs look unflattering because they were bred badly. You don't need a vet degree to know a dog that wrinkly is not only uncomfortable and useless, but can get everything from ectropion to skin infections. So many 'ebarrassing' rants on here, Jemima clearly struck a nerve of truth. But I guess foolish pride is more important to some breeders than dog health and comfort. Sad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-36378142617077099682018-11-02T18:49:01.252+00:002018-11-02T18:49:01.252+00:00Wow, you guys are so deluded regards dogs. Not one...Wow, you guys are so deluded regards dogs. Not one person has mentioned the corso, or the fact they are (or were) the same dog underneath. The neo was a vanity project, nothing more. Cello is a good representative of the old mastini, these dogs still litter the farms in the south of italy, and don't go by either corso, or neo, but simply mastino. My boy is from this neck of the woods, and as for someone commenting about straight stifle, and it affecting the character, what a crock of ****. My boy has fairly straight legs when standing like this, but test his character, you wont be leaving the garden alive. Dogs in Italy are being bred (especially down here in the south) to work, and work they do. Not the prancy monstrosities being 'shown'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31784321884518039122018-01-15T18:05:31.915+00:002018-01-15T18:05:31.915+00:00I’ve only perused through these comments and can’t...I’ve only perused through these comments and can’t help but wonder: all of those that speak ill of breedera, dogs, and what not, how they should be or how they shouldn’t, Damn, you must have a lot of time on your hands to write all those bad things. I envy you for the time, you must not have jobs, or a family to take care of, or a dog to maintain. It’s amazing to me what humans do to entertain themselves. The human race at its best: brilliant. Keep at it!!!!. How advanced are you to be able to finally blah, blah, blah about inferior species. Bravo!Khal Drogohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08210988975593467605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-37687688233265226612018-01-05T13:03:32.212+00:002018-01-05T13:03:32.212+00:00Age of three? Where on earth do you get your resea...Age of three? Where on earth do you get your research data from? hahaha Ive never read such a load of unresarched and uneducated BS in my life! Like someone else pointed out maybe if you do some 'actual' research and publish facts instead of writing all this rubbish for sensationalism to boost your dreary stained career... All this make believe prejudiced dribble and attacks on breeders and their dogs is just making you look like the silly small minded idiot that you are. Nothing you have said in this article is true and yet people are falling into line like sheep to take pot shots... pathetic really! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-16782669194763787172011-06-16T11:32:56.040+01:002011-06-16T11:32:56.040+01:00Ahhhh my comment will be visible after approval......Ahhhh my comment will be visible after approval... no wonder there are only people agreeing with you on here. You just don't let the truth be posted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-17530399402364877312011-06-16T11:31:59.101+01:002011-06-16T11:31:59.101+01:00So you are saying that Cello is the better dog?
W...So you are saying that Cello is the better dog?<br /><br />What are Cellos hip and elbow scores?<br />What are the second dogs scores?<br /><br />How can you say he is healthier just from a photo?<br /><br />Yes almost ALL breeds need work but you are focusing on the WRONG aspects in EVERY SINGLE breed write up you do.<br />Showing 2 different photos proves nothing.<br /><br />You picked my breed to pieces and it is one of the healthiest breeds out there, you focused on something as silly as GROOMING.<br />My gawd, I can't believe people gobble up this bollocks.<br /><br />BACK UP your claims with PROOF. I am not one of those people who will defend a breed to the death but Christ at least go about it the right way rather than just automatically shunning every breeder out there. <br />There are GOOD breeders who do the right thing and you are turning people against ALL breeders with your outlandish rants.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-72296688301410724972011-04-11T14:36:35.486+01:002011-04-11T14:36:35.486+01:00Kate,
The breed standards are indeed written by ...Kate, <br /><br />The breed standards are indeed written by humans to identify one breed from another are they not?<br /> <br />So I dont see that my description of the purpose of a written breed standard is an 'interesting scenario' just a fact? <br /><br />I also dont agree with you. I agree with Vicky above on the evolution of pedigree dogs and reasons for their physicality. <br /><br />Heres another question, why do Asians have slanted eyes and sallow skin. How does this benefit the race and what purpose does it serve? <br /> <br />I guess God must have had his own breed standard, right? Interesting scenario??? lol.Kim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-22076016157117350542011-04-11T13:05:37.649+01:002011-04-11T13:05:37.649+01:00"A breed standard to me is just a description..."A breed standard to me is just a description of what a breed of dog should look like, assuming you had landed from Mars and never seen one before in your life. "<br /><br />Gosh an interesting scenario indeed.<br /><br />I wouldn't want to be the human that had to explain to the alien the following questions (for example)...<br /><br />Why have pug dogs got such flat faces? What is the advantage of such a flat face?<br /><br />Why do basset hounds have such long heavy bodies stuck on such short legs? How does this benefit them?<br /><br />Why do dalmations have spots? How does this help them?<br /><br />Why do neapolitan mastiffs have loose skin and droopy eyes? Where is the advantage in that?<br /><br />Why are great danes so big? How does this benefit the breed?<br /><br />You see all the answers are purely because us as humans have decided that they should look like that because we like the look, and in many cases it serves no purpose what so ever.Kate Pricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12984661154425549615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-84579036059368844482011-04-11T12:29:28.620+01:002011-04-11T12:29:28.620+01:00Kate,
A breed standard to me is just a descriptio...Kate,<br /><br />A breed standard to me is just a description of what a breed of dog should look like, assuming you had landed from Mars and never seen one before in your life. <br /><br />So, please read the UKBS for me and attempt to draw a Neapolitan Mastiff based on the description and that will give you your answer. <br /><br />We have always had a very generic standard here especially compared to the Italian which is by complete contrast, extremely detailed and so its always been necessary to rely heavily on the expert knowledge of judges to understand the breed much more than the standard they have before them to select the correct dogs. <br /><br />If you are a breeder, are you going to read the UK standard and then breed dogs to fit it? Well, you could interpret it to fit to any Molosser pretty much. <br /><br />Therefore a breeder or judge in UK should know far more specific deatils about Neapolitan Mastiffs than the UK standard and if they dont they shouldnt be breeding or judging should they?<br /><br />The only difference now and before is the ommision of breed features which the KC felt are open to interpretation by breeders which can lead to gross exaggeration. Fair enough I say and I think thats the opinion of the majority involved in the breed. <br /><br />However, much relies on the decision of the judge on the day now and just like all us human beings (even including Ms Harrison) they do not always get it right, do they?Kim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-6239515405609227612011-04-11T11:17:14.296+01:002011-04-11T11:17:14.296+01:00Kim i'd be interested to know what the general...Kim i'd be interested to know what the general response amongst nm breeders with regards to the breed standard changes?<br />Do you think they were necessary? Do you think they went far enough?Kate Pricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12984661154425549615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-84216664766922134962011-04-10T16:50:00.366+01:002011-04-10T16:50:00.366+01:00Ms Harrison
Yes, I saw the eyes. They display haw...Ms Harrison<br /><br />Yes, I saw the eyes. They display haw. <br /><br />You obviously find the appearance of haw an abomination and would without doubt like to see the eyes look like the Cane Corso on the same album, but I am open minded to wait to see what comes from the BVA once they actually undertake a study on wide range of examples of Mastini study results obtained from related surveys and then give clear direction on eye shape and how this correlates to improved health. <br /><br />I know all believe we just need to remove the wrinkles, but unfortunately, other breeds without wrinkles suffer the same issues with eyes as Mastino, some without haw. Nothing is ever that simple you see?Kim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-5381579917625364822011-04-10T15:28:28.833+01:002011-04-10T15:28:28.833+01:00Blimey, Kim - did you see the eyes of some of the ...Blimey, Kim - did you see the eyes of some of the dogs on that album?<br /><br />https://picasaweb.google.com/polifemo16/CaniDaPresaMastiniECaniCorso?feat=directlink#5593668649421157426<br /><br />https://picasaweb.google.com/polifemo16/CaniDaPresaMastiniECaniCorso?feat=directlink#5593668566398514402<br /><br />Ouch.<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-90474866531174488642011-04-10T15:01:10.549+01:002011-04-10T15:01:10.549+01:00Ms Harrison
I presume the reason why no one asked...Ms Harrison<br /><br />I presume the reason why no one asked if I see the differences is that I am actually the person offering up the differences! As I have demonstrated in the links, the breed of Mastino Napoletano is really very diverse and so, quite ridiculous for someone like you to call for a breed ban on the strength of a handful of dogs who did not meet your approval at a dog show. But then again, my opinion about the true motives for your behaviour remains completely unchanged. <br /><br />Why do you think so many people posted here saying their dogs are healthy, gave examples of their daily activities and offered you to come see them in real life? Is it because the dogs are all 'mutants' with owners too dumb to notice or could it just be, that they are just normal dogs with normal lives and these folk just want to prove it to you? <br /><br />The Epir dogs are great example of Mastino living the good life in an environment perfect for them to just 'be'. But there are many dogs to be seen here in UK living scaled down version of the same life. Just maybe not in large scale operations or on the commercial websites and dog shows on which you made your sweeping all encompasing statements. <br /><br />Bulldog,<br /><br />I take your point re the Alleri Project, but it is all about reviving a specific type of dog as you know and at this moment in time, very much work in progress which is why you see dogs you like and others not so much. Its a project of some 8 years in total, so not so long, they are probably in the middle of the river, but with clear aim and direction so very interesting. <br /><br />Of course Epir dogs are not the traditional rustic dogs I spoke about earlier in the thread, but a good example of more modern, strong type dogs who are capable of work. But they look like the breed and cannot be mistaken for another so this was my point to post the link for people to see its not necessary to breed lightweight animals of some generic type just to have a healthier dog.<br /><br />You know a lot of people have problems with 'keeping a breed pure' and so on. Im not one of them. I think is really an ok thing to breed bandogs for specific working purposes. But you must call them bandogs and not 'working neos' If you want to promote a dog as a working one of a specific breed then it must bear the fundamental physical characteristics (and mental ones) or whats the point? You cannot change it. Its like calling a landrover a working ferrari. <br /><br />But Bulldog, I enjoyed our conversation very much. Thanks for all your input here on the blog and I really wish you the very best of luck with your future imports, as will for certain be very exciting additions and healthy news for the future of UK Mastino Napoletano, working or otherwise. I have one last present for you, <br /><br />https://picasaweb.google.com/polifemo16/CaniDaPresaMastiniECaniCorso?feat=directlink#5593666584855446306<br /><br />Enjoy! <br /><br />Kim xKim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-65935677626303521132011-04-10T08:19:03.529+01:002011-04-10T08:19:03.529+01:00Kim it doesnt matter to me you called the dogs mut...Kim it doesnt matter to me you called the dogs mutts as I dont own them I just know the people that do so doesnt bother me.It was more about you saying they are mutts and crossbreeds when they are KC registered dogs.Yes the camera does lie thts why I asked you.You commented on the dog and about his temperament.He is barely 12 months old if that so in the pic he would be no more than about 9 months old.You are correct about his height but he is about 10kg heavier than that and still alot of filling out to do yet.He is still just a big puppy.<br /><br />The site you posted from Italy I had a look at.There were some dogs of type that looked quite ok but there were also some shockers.<br />I am familiar with the EPIR dogs and to me they are the middle ground we speak of.Still have some type,size and bone and have temperament and raised in the ideal envirnment and it is pleasing to see someone doing right.However by your reckoning they are also not working dogs thats what you said about those dogs before isnt it?Cant have it both ways.I beleive a couple of these dogs are going to be imported to the UK maybe this year.I didnt say you have to go to the extremes to acheive something but it depends what you want.They are just dogs that are not bred to a show standard they are bred toa differnt standard but still registered and health tested and temp tested.<br /><br />I like the Epir dogs and i just might get myself one someday.Wink wink.bulldognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-79104488088443045582011-04-08T13:08:52.965+01:002011-04-08T13:08:52.965+01:00Well seeing as no one else has asked this... Kim, ...Well seeing as no one else has asked this... Kim, could you tell me if you see the difference between the Serbian dogs and the dogs we saw at Crufts? <br /><br />For, believe me, if the UK showdogs looked like the Serbian dogs (all hip and elbow tested too I see), I am not sure we'd be having this debate. The Serbian dogs may be substantial, but - except for some with exposed haws and sore-looking eyes - they look much fitter/more functional. <br /><br />I realise he's only young, but I even quite LIKED the look of this dog and he is far more moderate than the dogs I see on any UK breeders' websites.<br /><br />http://mastinoepir.com/our_dogs_today/Big_Wolf.htm<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-21436330310257837002011-04-07T15:47:15.942+01:002011-04-07T15:47:15.942+01:00Hi Bulldog,
I did not answer your question on Ce...Hi Bulldog, <br /><br />I did not answer your question on Cello for a reason. At the very beginning of these blogs are some misleading pictures of a handful of dogs taken at Crufts. Including one rescue dog from the Discover Dogs exhibition with a prolapse of the eyelid made out to look like she was part of the show. <br /><br />I learned years ago the camera does in fact lie and lie a lot and commented only on 'mutts' in the style most members of this site posted on the 'mutants' and lo and behold, we get a lot of posts back from people as yourself defending the dogs. <br /><br />Not nice is it, when a whole race and someones hard work is rubbished on the strength of a few pix? Now ask yourself who is the one committing the slander. <br /><br />As I am not in the business of wildly guessing, I cannot answer your question on Cello. The normal rules that apply to Mastino development do not apply to a dog like him. If they did he would be 18 months old max, around 55 kilos and approx 29" at the withers But he is as extreme undertype as the extreme overtype examples, so not correct and not what I can ever agree as desirable in a good example of a Neapolitan Mastiff. <br /><br />You are incorrect about no one supplying heavier examples of strong type and temperament. The world is a small place now, bulldog, and you really have to go and see with your own eyes what others are doing if you have the passion for a credible UK project. I have given you one link to a site in Italy and now, here is another very interesting breeder in Serbia.<br /><br /> http://mastinoepir.com/index.htm<br /><br />Heavier dogs of strong type doing all you would ever want a Mastino to do, HD/ED free, living rustic lives and a breeder/owner with correct philosophy according to the breed. <br /><br />His dogs are show Champions also and you can see in the pix with kids, genial and social despite the work ethic. Correct temperament for Mastino and correct type dog who cannot be mistaken for another breed and health screened. <br /><br />To me, this represents working Mastino in the modern world. Not Cello and Co who look like a different breed of dog all together. You can see with a little skill, knowledge and commitment to a certain aim, one can achieve a lot. Even in the depths of Serbia. If this is what you want, a working heavyweight Mastino, you can see here its very achievable without going to the extremes of Cello Mog and Dante. <br /><br />Dig a little deeper than the high profile commercial breeder websites and you can find many similar treasures. <br /><br />Youre right, you cannot make something out of nothing. But this is my idea of middle ground and we dont need dogs like Dante to achieve it. <br /> <br />Best regards to you and I really hope you get a lot of pleasure looking at the Epir dogs. <br /><br />KimKim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-18309859567920377292011-04-07T07:12:55.741+01:002011-04-07T07:12:55.741+01:00Kim,
is that champion Achille del regno di Sicilia...Kim,<br />is that champion Achille del regno di Sicilia?Kate Pricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12984661154425549615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-5718388159386615502011-04-07T05:05:21.837+01:002011-04-07T05:05:21.837+01:00I agree a lighter version of the Neo exists in the...I agree a lighter version of the Neo exists in the Corso but most dont have that true temperament just like many modern day Neo's dont have a true temperament.You say what work can they do better than a larger Neo?Well as we have already ascertained there are larger Neo's that have temperament just not many.I call them working Neo's becuase they have that true temperament something that has been lost in most 'show' dogs thats what they can do better than a lot of Neo's regardless of size.The argument isnt about size but overdone huge Neo's will break down becuae of too much pressure on joints in the pursuit of size and look.Where are the heavier dogs of stron temperament in my possession?I dont have anybut where are they in the world Kim.If not in Italy?I am sure there are dogs there they may be as you say but how many?How many of these people would actually sell you one?All I see mostly is overdone show dogs and that goes for Italy as well.the majority of the dogs dont have stron temperament anymore and thats becuase people dont want it or need it.If not why do they breed them for?They breed for a look and areputation.Unfortuantely many cant live up to the reputation.Many cant live up to much when they cant live long enough to do anything.Shoe me Kim how many heavyweights with heavy duty temperament there are that ar alive now and over the age of 7 and in reasonable condition.not dogs of yesteryear but alive now.That is my point with dogs like Dante and whilst you still refuse to acknowledge these dogs with in your own breed it will ultimatel;y be to the breeds detriment becuase peoples refusal to use such dogs that are within the breeed to fix existing problems how can they go forward.As far as poorly sho bred line dogs.The dogs bred for temperament yes just happen to take on that appearance and two fold effe3ct is better health.I am not saying they all will have better health but you get rid of some of that excessive skin and get rid of the thyroid problems and etra exertion on the heart and inner organs and you will get a healthier dog.Middle ground remember.It may be down to breeding combinations and that is obvious as temperament will drop up in many combinations but when it is not a criteria selected for in show dogs it wont be found.That is the criteria selected for in the above mentioned dogs.if you beleive you will recreat something out fo only what you posses you will keep going around in circles.You cant make soemthing out of nothing.<br /><br />Keep doing what you have always done and you will keep etting what you have always got.bulldognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-58423253350767023862011-04-07T04:45:27.449+01:002011-04-07T04:45:27.449+01:00I will agree with Vicky to a certain extent as we ...I will agree with Vicky to a certain extent as we are all prejudiced to a point and if you have ever bred a dog most of us at some point will look at a pup and think becuase it looks like one parent it will carry the traits even if it isnt true.If the Italian farmer had a dog of a certain type then thats what they would choose becuasse thats what they had and maybe they didnt look like Cello but how do you know.In different rural areas of Italy they owned different livestock and needed different dogs to perform different functions.Old pics of Neo's that we have all seen resemble tighter dogs more like a corso.Dogs that today wouldnt rate a mention in the show cicuit but obviously existed for a reason.They all go hand in hand somewhere along the line.<br /> I know what you were aluding to Kim as the root of the 'true' working Neo as coming from a certain area of southern Italy and taking on a certain type.If you read what i said I stated type in my post in reference to zaccaro as being of that type not the original dogs as they wouldnt be arround anymore but certainly dogs that resenmle them would be.Dogs that are thick and low slung thick boned and easily recognisable by there appearance and you obviouslt believe this is the real Neo.Maybe it is we will never know becuase there isnt enough reliable history prior to this to ascertain the truth.Most of it is sham history.Unfortuantely there are few breeders to seek out the type of dog you mention and breed a dog that ticks all the boxes.People living in places where they cant give the dogs what they need and breeding for a look over anything else is not going to take the breed forward.<br /><br />I agree with what Oliff said about temperament and type as I said before I have nothing against a dog that has type just not extreme type.A dog should still be recognisable as what breed it is but it should maintain the temperament to perform its role without that type means nothing.I am not promoting Cello,Mog and Dante as the correct Neo nor the be all and end all of Mastiffs.I simply say there is a healthier specimen and I say this becuase I know it not from a picture.Dante would be going around 8 years old now.You still didnt answer my question about Cello and how old you think he is and how big he is?Also you were the one that called them Mutts and also said no health testing.They are KC registered dogs and if they visibly look different becuase they have thrown back its because the people you hold in high esteem added something else to the breed.Why did they do this?For health reasons becuase of a depleted gene pool?If so that would say that the breed isnt<br />that old.I am not promoting crossbreeding but if the dogs are present and registered what is wrong with using them to better what you have.This breed cant be brought back in one generation you have to look far ahead.unfortunately too many are in it for the money and dont really care about the longevity of the breed and if they did they may change their breeding practices.<br /> I know you say you have promoted this but what has the breed club done in the UK to promote it.Have they lobbied the KC to make health testing mandatory and if dogs are not tested they shall not be registered?Some of these things will go some way to helping the breed and i think that is Jemima's point.Everyone is getting hot under the collar and slandering her becuase it is their breed but how many would disagree that the breed is in trouble and some of the dogs out there are an utter disgrace.bulldognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-1629092074431953482011-04-06T18:43:36.545+01:002011-04-06T18:43:36.545+01:00A good neo should be like a rugby prop forward and...A good neo should be like a rugby prop forward and not like homer simpson.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76997133021821001272011-04-05T19:10:12.898+01:002011-04-05T19:10:12.898+01:00http://www.neapolitanworld.com/community/modules/c...http://www.neapolitanworld.com/community/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10022/ch.%20Achille%20del%20Regno%20di%20Sicilia%20by%20Gianni%20di%20Blasi%2028%20August%202008%2C%2C.jpg<br /><br />Who says show dogs are incapable to perform the function for which they were originally bred? It Ch Achille says....'come into my place and make my day!'Kim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-69904442796346557982011-04-05T15:18:31.032+01:002011-04-05T15:18:31.032+01:00To continue,
When discussions as this occur, I a...To continue, <br /><br />When discussions as this occur, I always prefer to quote my own dear friend and mentor Douglas Oliff. One of the very first people to own a Mastino here in UK and who wrote a lot about his own rather bloodthirsty girl Rosamund Netta and how true Mastino temperament should never be lost. He said 'We must have an equal balance of both health and type, because if you do not have health the dog cannot perform his function, but ultimately, without type, where is the breed?' <br /><br />Indeed, Douglas! <br /><br />So, in response to your question, to make a breed a breed, body type, head type AND temperament are all needed to be present and correct. You can heighten some for your specific needs, ie show or work which is fine, but you should never work to omit any, should you? <br /><br />A lighter more agile version of Mastino exists in the Cane Corso. They bear more than a passing resemblance to Cello particularly in body and length of leg, but not head again as that breed is also having more specific requirements. <br /><br />But you say you call them working 'neos' because they work. What kind of work can this small one do better than a heavier more typical dog according to the work they were originally expected to do?<br /><br />Again, in human terms we are comparing Usain Bolt to a Kenyan distance runner here....... <br /><br />Also, if your selection is based on temperament and you readily admit this exists still in more typical dogs (which it does), where are these heavier typical dogs with strong temperament in your possession and why do I not see them swinging from the ropes? Because all of the ones Ive seen held up as 'working neos' look like very bad Cane Corso (sorry, lovers of Corsi!!!), the results of selection of poorly bred show lined dogs with maybe more hard temperament and this can be down to initial breeding combinations rather than typical character trait according to the breed. <br /><br />A real livewire heavyweight Mastino is a lot of dog to handle. Like a lion. So be very careful where you go with all this without real, cast iron knowledge! <br /> http://www.neapolitanworld.com/community/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&meta=search&cat=0&pos=183Kim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-51885852986471926352011-04-05T14:50:03.965+01:002011-04-05T14:50:03.965+01:00Vicky,
What a great post and very accurate obser...Vicky, <br /><br />What a great post and very accurate observation! An Italian peasant farmer, who probably couldnt read a standard if he wanted to, would simply have knowledge of the specific type of dog he needed to do best his job of work and Im afraid, bulldog, that dog did not look like Cello. <br /><br />In addition, you are somewhat preaching to the converted as over the years I have been an insistent voice asking for the show fraternity to consider more character form and function in equal measures instead of heavily slanted towards for the show ring, such as in this forum thread. <br /> <br />http://www.neapolitanworld.com/community/ftopic-3759-0.html<br /><br />Beth, I have seen and therefore what I strive to own and breed myself is a dog who works as a property guard at my place, can live in rustic conditions on the Welsh hillside, be intelligent enough to know when he needs to do his job and socialised to know when he can be 'off duty'. If I am fortunate enough, the same dog can also be beautiful enough to take to a show. And why not? One of the best ever show dogs in Mastino history was known to be a ferocious guard on his own property yet genial to all away from his domain and that is really the correct character of this most complex of breeds. <br /><br />Once again more research needed from you, bulldog as Don Gennaro ('the old man') was famous for making an extreme version of Zaccaro type dogs due to his inbreeding practices, the dogs became short and suffered from such diseases as ricketts and malformation of the joints. But this TYPE (Zaccaro is a type not man!) of dog was widespread across large rural areas in Southern Italy and even living wild, allowing for the most basic of natural selection to occur. He had a reputation as a relentless and somewhat ferocious type of dog and became less popular in modern times for obvious reasons, but his ilk still exist today and characteristics throwback in more modern type dogs, so its down to persistence and desire of breeders interested in a revival to seek them out and undertake a breeding programme of greater accuracy and credibility. <br /><br />If you can speak Italian, you may like to check out this website and the work of the Alleri Group. <br /><br />http://www.alleri.eu/pagina/it/allevamento/39/Criteri_Di_Selezione.html<br /><br />It sums up better than I ever can the really hard work and level of study required to produce a genuine 'no frills' working Neapolitan Mastiff. <br /><br />I actually once gave a present to Virgillo Dal Buono of Alleri of Hancocks book which he greatly enjoyed as I thought he would. But we both agree, is a great historian on Mastiff in general, but without the detailed knowledge specific to Mastino.Kim Slaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-34988353004608948892011-04-05T11:24:31.396+01:002011-04-05T11:24:31.396+01:00Certainly some food for thought...some more if you...Certainly some food for thought...some more if you're still hungry...<br /><br />Since dogs started to exist man has been predujiced by appearance. Imagine a village with some proto-dogs wandering around. One is born who is a great tracker. He happens to have floppy ears, unlike the majrity with erect ears. Human rightly or wrongly assumes floppy ears=good tracker so he picks his future tracking dogs initially by their ears. There may be a link- a gene important for tracking may be extremely close to one for drop ears. there may be no link. The neopolitant farmer wasn't looking at a standard but he probably did try to breed a dog which acted AND looked like other 'good' dogs. If he bred ONLY on ability no 'type' would have developed. Try Coppingers 'Dogs' for some ineresting thoughts on breeding and evolution of dogs.vickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10121255969249035539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-55545490600821107712011-04-05T04:40:14.609+01:002011-04-05T04:40:14.609+01:00Thats fine Kim I will as well but the temperament ...Thats fine Kim I will as well but the temperament and the health are more important than the look becuase back in the day thats what they were bred for long before a breed standard was written and then rewritten and rewritten again.Do you think the illiterate Italian farmer cared for a breed standard?He cared for the ability of the dog becuase if it didnt have any he had no use for it.<br /> If you want to call them lightweights thats fine and if you dont class them as 'true' working Neo's thats also fine.They are still registered with the precious KC.I call them working Neo's becuase they work not becuase of a look.That is the criteria for a working dog regardless of breed.You seem to think that I and other people call them working Neo's because they are sleeker than your typey Neo's and that is far from the truth.It just so happens when selecting dog for health thats where some end up and if you pick the right dogs as far as temp there you go but I unlike you am not saying only these dogs have temp as there are probably plenty typey dogs do too only there health lets them down.No good having a dog with the heart of a lion beating within the body of a diseased cripple.<br /><br />As far as dogs playing tug,springpole etc it isnt about strengthing the jaw its about there willingness and their grip also nothing to do with dimension of their head.They either want to do it or they dont.If it doesnt impress you fine you dont have to do it with your dog.If others find a dog playing with a rag offensive maybe they need to stick to the dog shows.<br />Yes body type is important but more important than health or temperament?You say Zaccaro type dogs.Typoe yes but not the same as the original dogs if there are even any left.Didnt the old man breed his own dogs by himself an inbreed them and thats hy they had health problems.Hardly a revolutionary breeding program.They may say the dogs are weak here and there but watch the dogs work and move and jump and then talk not look at a photo.<br /><br />I will agree there are tell tale signs you will see in some dogs of alertness but the pic of cello is an innocent pic.Maybe the pic was taken by the owners wife and it is in familiar surroundings.Does the dog need to be 'switched on'.A dog that is permanently 'wired' is not a dog most people want or that is useful and yes I have owned my fair share that I could tell you about.It doesnt matter your opinion differs from ine Kim I deal in facts and you can not tell the temperament of a dog from a picture.It is a moment captured in time thats all.You know the owner go and see the dog and you may just change your mind.Tell me with your expert eye how old you think Cello is and how big he is.I already know.I will continue to research as i always like to learn but my opinions wont change on working ability as it is the same for any breed.I am not worried about a Kennel club standard I am more interested in a dog that can perform its functional role and live up to what a breed was bred for.<br /><br />I will leave you with a couple of quotes from Colonel Hancock.By the way he likes some of these dogs and has personally expressed that.<br /><br />"bred to a harmful design based on a misinterpretation of their past form. Breeding exaggerated or malformed dogs is even worse. It is never acceptable to try to excuse a poor specimen by pleading 'but it's a good mastiff". <br /><br />"I believe it is dishonest to breed dogs with an ancient origin to a mistaken contemporary concept of their anatomy and the reasons for this shape and size. There is a lesson here for breeders of Neapolitan Mastiffs: don't assume that breeders in the dog's native country have got it right and don't suppress yourself your own common sense by trying to ape foreign breeders pretending to be pursuing the classic type in the breed".<br /><br />FOOD FOR THOUGHT.bulldognoreply@blogger.com