tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post1661618802315056388..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: The crux of the matterJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41228442481071855632012-04-18T10:09:42.389+01:002012-04-18T10:09:42.389+01:00Jemima, you say that you've never heard of ...Jemima, you say that you've never heard of 'condition' being used to describe body mass; it's actually a recognised veterinary and medical term: see http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/condition<br /><br />"2. state of the body in terms of amount of tissue carried. Spoken of as obese, fat, thin, emaciated. See also body condition score."Marynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-40566869827890146532012-04-13T02:12:56.949+01:002012-04-13T02:12:56.949+01:00For heavens sake, hunting with dogs is illegal. Wo...For heavens sake, hunting with dogs is illegal. Working breeds are made to sensible designs by natural evolution and all others need to be thought of as pets and bred to designs which don't produce pain and discomfort. The Kennel Club has made a start and predicatbly there are those who see their business interests threatened.<br />However the freakofiles will be consigned to the dustbin of dog breeding history if the KC keeps its nerve as most of the public are on their side. Just do what is necessary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-38395856084859248752012-04-03T14:01:26.212+01:002012-04-03T14:01:26.212+01:00After my last two posts here, I wasn't going t...After my last two posts here, I wasn't going to add any more - no point? However, after overnight consideration about all of this, based on your concerns about how improvements can be policed I'd just like to suggest, with respect, that compared to the number of hounds in the Albany, and those currently in the show ring, the number of Bassets in the UK currently living happy healthy lives, and only visiting the vets occasionally would be far higher, and more representative of the Breed as a whole, than the numbers in either disciplines (show/hunting). Yes, I've seen some pretty bad examples, structurally of the breed who have come from the Puppy Farms etc. but basically these hounds are just physically not pleasing (to me) to the eye. For the most part I don't think any of their conformation faults stop them from living comfortable lives, to a good old age. So perhaps you are not looking at the breed as a whole? Just those you have seen in the ring? I truly wish Stortons had not suggested that given the 'lozenge shape' called for in the BS, it would be impossible to breed a Basset that doesn't have ectropion or further, that no hound in the Crufts entry would have failed. This has only added fuel for some people to run with and is plainly not true.<br /><br />As for breaking the cycle of judges who are also breeders etc - hopefully knowing that happened at Crufts, might bring home the need for them to be more concerned not to award exaggeration in the ring. Hopefully! Quite a few judges are already known to be withholding in the ring.<br /><br />Moderation has always been in the Breed Standard, but unfortunately there has been an element of 'more is better' that has crept in (in many things!. And once on a roll, it's hard to turn away from what has been a winning formula. Whether you perceive the statement that everyone is trying ..... to breed hounds that meet the BS as 'feeble' or not, I think you will find that this is the case, but any overall improvement is not going to happen overnight. And maybe there will be those who will refuse/are unable to stand back and look objectively at their stock. But again, I suggest that those hounds being shown today (and entries lately have been very low) is only a very small percentage of all Bassets in the UK.<br />With respect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-64780930865066721542012-04-02T18:22:45.291+01:002012-04-02T18:22:45.291+01:00Anon:I don't expect to see lean, mean hunting ...Anon:I don't expect to see lean, mean hunting machines in the show ring but I would like to see a more concrete plan and evidence of how changes are going to be implemented.<br /><br />How do you break the cycle of judges who are also breeders putting up hounds that look just like theirs and perpetuating the current problems? <br /><br />If 'moderation' has always been in the breed standard why does the show world find its self in the current mess with best of breed hounds being rightly criticized for extreme exaggeration?? <br /><br />I think all involved in the current regime (judges and breeders) have ably demonstrated that ‘self-policing’ has not worked yet I don’t see or hear any alternatives being out forward, apart from feeble statements that everyone is trying jolly hard to breed hounds that meet the breed standard.<br /><br />Given the amount of change required, I think all involved in the breed need to accept that a more radical approach is needed. There will be winners and losers but if regime change means a healthier Basset Hound I would fully support any initiative.Alisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-20458121489800532812012-04-02T17:14:37.826+01:002012-04-02T17:14:37.826+01:00Just to add please don't let emotion cloud wha...Just to add please don't let emotion cloud what you might see as being against the well-being of a hound. I think you'll find the life expectancy of the Basset is actually longer than it used to be years ago (11 years whereas most now live well into their teens)with minimal need for a vet. The Breed Clubs have recently been conducting a health survey on the breed to hopefully discover what is going on out there. I haven't seen the published results of this survey yet, and await that with interest. And also it's worth remembering that for every show-breeder, there are far more BYBs/Puppy Farmers churning out Bassets. I take the KCBRs and in recent years, far more KC Registered Bassets come from this source, than from show people. And some of these are truly dire. However, I'd suggest that your average pet Basset, lives a long, happy and healthy life, and more so when they come from a show/breeder. Virtually none would be required to show great endurance in the field. Moving away from Buzz and his perceived faults of course!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-85875371534311924222012-04-02T17:05:15.418+01:002012-04-02T17:05:15.418+01:00Just to say that I imagine the 'targets' a...Just to say that I imagine the 'targets' are to try to produce a hound who fits more closely what the Breed Standard suggests - and that is moderation, throughout - as it always has (even before the recent revision). But judging, and breeding, has always been, and always will be subjective, based on the individual's interpretation of the words of the Standard. Unfortunately in the UK (or in some ways perhaps fortunately because who better should know their own breed), judges are most often breeders, and as such, breeders will tend to put up the type of Basset they prefer, and breed. One can only hope they are judging the right end of the lead. You know well enough who will 'measure the success' remembering that all judges are now charged with only putting up 'healthy dogs' as well as those with correct conformation. It's all about the Breed Standard (which before blame is laid in any direction, has hardly altered from how it has been for ions, just some words have been changed) and how the individual sees the living animal in relation to the BS. I don't think the improvements will take long to implement, provided some breeders will accept they have gone somewhat down the wrong path in recent years and maybe when standing in judgment, will only reward those hounds showing a sensible degree of breed features, without losing what is the Basset Hound. And therein lies the potential for delay. If you hope to see a lean, mean, hunting machine going round the show-ring, I think you are in for a long wait however.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-91316846830460010282012-04-02T13:08:32.868+01:002012-04-02T13:08:32.868+01:00OK Anon, let’s agree to put our differences aside....OK Anon, let’s agree to put our differences aside.<br /> <br />I have had various replies stating that work is being done to improve the KC hound. Can anyone tell me what these changes are, what the targets are, how will you measure success, who will measure the success and how long the changes will take to implement? <br /><br />I am more than happy to give the breed time to implement changes but I would like to see specific success criteria. Without these I am concerned that old habits die hard and without constant review, change will be very slow if it happens at all.<br /><br />I also agree that there are probably many show hounds that don’t have the excesses exhibited by Buzz. I would like more of these hounds to be rewarded in the show ring, but until that happens breeders will continue to breed the type of hounds that are rewarded, which as we all know have been the more exaggerated types.<br /><br />Here's hoping that all the words can be turned in to actions that benefit the Basset Hound.Alisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-20659754628962432292012-04-02T13:08:01.620+01:002012-04-02T13:08:01.620+01:00Yes, I know who you are. And yes, of course it is ...Yes, I know who you are. And yes, of course it is a question of semantics. But I'd never heard "condition" used in that sense and it struck me as so odd. Odd too that it is considered desirable when it is obviously so deleterious to a hound that should be capabale of great endurance in the field.<br /><br />Yes of course, not every entry at Crufts was burdened with dollops of excess flesh (and indeed I didn't say so). There were more moderate hounds there and they were good to see.<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-36940328649717201472012-04-02T13:01:28.339+01:002012-04-02T13:01:28.339+01:00Jemima I think we are engaging in semantics here ....Jemima I think we are engaging in semantics here .... Of course I don't consider 'dollops of flesh' = condition. Condition = weight (as stated), which the show Basset is being accused of having too much of. And for the record, I don't think the entire entry at Crufts, or at any other show for that matter, actually does have dollops of flesh.<br /><br />Much as I've had enough of this place (none so blind as those who won't see) I think you should have twigged who I am, and where I'm coming from by now, much as I do prefer to remain Anon around here lol.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-2350431581303682342012-04-02T08:47:08.630+01:002012-04-02T08:47:08.630+01:00Anon @ 12:02 wrote: "I think you'd find t...Anon @ 12:02 wrote: "I think you'd find that if the Pack was carrying a bit more condition (weight for the ring) and the show-hound carrying rather less (for the field), the two strains might look far more similar"<br /><br />So the excess dollops of flesh you see in the ring is called "condition"? And the show breeders would consider that the fit hunting hounds don;t have enough of it? That is a very bizarre hijacking of the English language.<br /><br />Jemima<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-63987601758661304342012-04-02T08:02:06.940+01:002012-04-02T08:02:06.940+01:00Sadly it seems there is very little 'middle gr...Sadly it seems there is very little 'middle ground' to be found between those showing, and those hunting, and this I regret. A lot! It would appear from the new link, that the Albany are not quite as on the leg as the photo in the first link here might suggest! Good. That being the case, I think you'd find that if the Pack was carrying a bit more condition (weight for the ring) and the show-hound carrying rather less (for the field), the two strains might look far more similar, talking about leg length. Again I'm not fond of 'extremes'. Obviously you are looking for hunting ability which the average exhibitor in the ring is not (even if this was legal!!). All I can say is it's a huge pity that there appears to be such a split between the two disciplines right now in some quarters. Especially at a time when others have targeted the breed as being 'in trouble' whether it be eyes, ear length, back length etc.etc.. Shouldn't we all be pulling together to protect our beloved breed?<br />And for the record far from all show hounds exhibit the perceived faults (unable to see their legs when standing on short grass) that you suggest. Further, work is being done!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-2794721402285901422012-04-01T20:20:56.719+01:002012-04-01T20:20:56.719+01:00I think suggesting we need to change the Albany ho...I think suggesting we need to change the Albany hounds is rather missing the point to all this. <br /><br />It is the show basset that needs the work, 'tweaks' to the Albany hounds are irrelevant when compared to the huge amount of work required by both the KC and the Basset Hound Club to improve the show stock.<br /><br />We have over 20 hounds in the pack and I would never say all were 'perfect' to look at, remember we breed primarily for working ability. <br /><br />Regarding leg length, none are taller than 15 inches at the shoulder and most are 13 inches, very much in line with KC hounds today and Basset Hounds from the past. <br /><br />It’s interesting how both the Albany hounds and the KC hounds are similar in height at the shoulder but leg length is so dramatically different. In my view there’s simply no reason to breed hounds with legs you can hardly see even when they are standing on short grass, especially considering they are supposed to be capable of great endurance in the field.<br /><br />And is the picture of the Albany in 1967 really so different from this one? I think not.<br /><br /><br />http://www.albanybassets.co.uk/images/out_about/out10.jpgAlisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-71491489704026882412012-04-01T15:16:45.235+01:002012-04-01T15:16:45.235+01:00Alison just to ask whether you really think it'...Alison just to ask whether you really think it's necessary to be breeding a Basset who is quite so on the leg as those in the revised Albany hound - as shown in the linked photograph here? Middle ground would indeed be nice and that would include some 'give' on the part of the people breeding 'show' bassets (which IS being worked on by some!), as well as you with the Albany hounds. Somewhere recently in all of this, you brought up the question of the Grims hounds - if you look at old photos of these hounds, the root of most of the hounds in the UK today be it in the ring, or not, you won't see many with quite so much leg and most were more balanced, front to back, with a level topline, than those few shown in that photo of the Albany. I love the eyes on the one top right - excessive haw? - TOO RIGHT. Perhaps in order to run a plough now (and the original function of the Basset was not as one of a Pack hound) you actually have to have bred for more leg in recent years? Again old photos of the Albany pack didn't look like this!! Check out the photo.in George Johnston, opp.page 176 - the BHC Working Pack 1967 I'm not suggesting the Basset, as opposed to the Artois- Norman should be quite as dry as say Ulema de Barly but again, at least he was a balanced hound.<br />Still, horses for courses I guess. And I am with you over 'excesses'. One hundred percent. I just don't think mud slinging achieves very much?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-1570587991923466972012-04-01T12:25:35.147+01:002012-04-01T12:25:35.147+01:00Anon: You clealry no nothing about the world of th...Anon: You clealry no nothing about the world of the MBHA, or may be you just think you do.<br /><br />I think Best Bitch and Reserve Bitch at the annual MBHA show and numerous first prizes is recognition from our peers in the hunting world, and the fact other packs have used our stud dogs for breeding, and the fact that everyone who sees our hounds comment on what superb drive, voice and discipline they have and the fact we have receive comments from global audiences about the superb condition of our hounds.<br /><br />Like it or not, people from many different backgrounds like our hounds for the way they look and what they can do. I don't think you can say the same for the average show basset?Alisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-24105187905564837082012-04-01T07:15:48.112+01:002012-04-01T07:15:48.112+01:00Not sure I can understand the logic behind your qu...Not sure I can understand the logic behind your question, Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms Anon. What you seem to be saying is that because the Albany hounds have (allegedly) better conformation than KC show type bassets, therefore they should also have better conformation than other working hounds, ones that don't have so much show KC blood.<br /><br />Nice attempt at moving the goalposts, but we aren't comparing the Albany hounds to other working bassets. We are comparing them to those lumpy great oversized KC show things, the ones with about 5 kilos of pointless loose skin, vestigial legs and no visible eyes. On that comparison I reckon the Albany hounds do quite well.Richard Hallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-59072766023578049882012-03-31T19:07:02.565+01:002012-03-31T19:07:02.565+01:00Dear Brian,
I have a van, my husband (also a vet)...Dear Brian, <br />I have a van, my husband (also a vet)has a beat up peugot estate he fixes himself because he can't afford the garage fees! Don't tar all vets with the 'in it for he money' brush and I won't tar all dog showing people as a bunch of 'wrong uns!' If your vet is managing to make serious money in this day and age then well done to him. He can't be oo much of a 'rip off merchant' or presumably you ould have found another vet?<br />VPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-2863442008123046392012-03-31T17:49:07.782+01:002012-03-31T17:49:07.782+01:00If the Albany had such good stock they would achie...If the Albany had such good stock they would achieved some credit from their peers at the MBHA shows?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-38017956602349024742012-03-31T14:34:02.025+01:002012-03-31T14:34:02.025+01:00i love this group if you don't agree with them...i love this group if you don't agree with them you are either a troll, and loser or a retard, ha ha your showing your true colours and people are seeing you all for what you are Animal Rights nutters<br />Jane FlynnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-20322291672811347402012-03-31T07:29:24.233+01:002012-03-31T07:29:24.233+01:00Yes, some working bassets have a lot of haw showin...Yes, some working bassets have a lot of haw showing. I had a look through our hounds a couple of days after Crufts and there were a few which the Crufts vet might have struggled with, if excessive haw was indeed the only criterion for rejection.<br /><br />One difference though - in the working basset ectropion is not a characteristic for which we are deliberately and selectively breeding.Richard Hallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-32042315569801777062012-03-30T23:08:25.039+01:002012-03-30T23:08:25.039+01:00I have also just looked at the Dereheath/Dilheath ...I have also just looked at the Dereheath/Dilheath dogs and think they look awful poor things. Their saggy understuffed sausage look does not inspire me to want to own a basset whereas Alison Jeffers Albany basset hounds look lovely, fit and healthy dogs, I see no sign of ectropian.. Nor do Albanys look like any Beagles I have ever seen! Anonymous you are either a troll or a loser - perhaps both?!?ValChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11486595734079952660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-58055196716144050112012-03-30T21:20:02.363+01:002012-03-30T21:20:02.363+01:00Look how foolish you are are. How funny is this!
...Look how foolish you are are. How funny is this!<br /><br />I went to the web site of Derek Scrimgeour who you mention above and what do I find? <br />http://www.bordercollie.gb.com/text1_13.html<br /><br />I knew what I would find before I looked, as I know that this great handler, trainer and breeder of working border collies cares greatly about his breed and he does do health testing!<br />This very ISDS breeder you mention in the same post as your very slanted anti working dog breeder rant about health testing, mentions health tests on a page for one of his studs. <br />Oh dear, what an over sight was on your part...LOL There are none so blind as those who will not see. <br /><br />Now open you eyes and look<br />http://www.canadianbordercollies.org/studs.htm<br />This list of stud dogs, in Canada (it is the Canadian Working Border Collie web site) and also somestuds in the US lists a number of dogs and almost every one has listed some health testing. As I said before working breeders do not always list on the web heath testing. For example I know that the breeder MarCar who has a listing on this page does hips and DNA CEA and Certs and she does not mention on this web site, so do assume because they have not said it it is not being done. <br /><br />As I said before it was the working breeders who did most of the work needed to get the DNA CEA test developed, they have also work with Cornell Uni to develop a hip screening process for border collies, recently they support the work to find the gene for adult onset deafness and huge amounts of money and effort have gone towards epi research. <br /><br />You are deliberately soiling the reputation of many many breeders and owners of working border collies around the world who have worked most of their lives for the benefit of the working border collie. You are either a liar or just plain stupid or both, but in any case you are called out on it.<br /><br />I’ll say it again, it is absolutely shameful to promote kennel club breeding practices for show ring and the showing of the wonderful working breed the border collie. It will and is bringing only harm to the breed. <br />Bad enough with so many breeds in serious trouble due to people who cannot stand back and see what they are doing to these poor dogs in the name of showing, now you want to take another breed down that path. No way. <br /><br />BTW I never said PDE supported BCSA. I said that you were here trying to gain their support. And, I am here trying to make sure that no one is fooled by you, you are nothing more than a showie trying to pull th wool over everyone’s eyes and take another breed down the show ring path.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-56267660690782628132012-03-30T20:34:51.117+01:002012-03-30T20:34:51.117+01:00The Storton's know exactly who I am and I don&...The Storton's know exactly who I am and I don't recall them being sensitive when they publically criticised our hounds. I may be stooping a little low, but not as low as Buzz - yet!<br /><br />I am glad he enjoys himself running around the garden with his hound friends, but isn't that what a dog is supposed to be able to do?<br /><br />As a prvevous post mentioned, a picture speaks more than 1000 words. Everyone can see his exaggerated features for themselvs and make up their own minds, which is exactly what is happening as I am sure you are well aware.Alisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-39007033490432497122012-03-30T19:37:27.387+01:002012-03-30T19:37:27.387+01:00Don't get too worked up about that: The rather...Don't get too worked up about that: The rather condescending attitude of some breeders and judges towards vets can be explained mainly through the Dunning-Kruger effect: Ignorants are neither able to comprehend the degree of their ignorance nor to identify competent people. If you want to look at their statements in perspective, just remember that you have more anatomy and functionality knowledge in your little finger than the most restpected of judges have in both of their arms. <br /><br />Way, way before PDE, one of my profs used to say on the topic that "People who breed such deformed animals are idiots, and we ought not particularly value the friendship of idiots."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-4583144974184497842012-03-30T19:04:01.564+01:002012-03-30T19:04:01.564+01:00@Alison Jeffers - I don't think personal attac...@Alison Jeffers - I don't think personal attacks on specific breeders is acceptable. In fact, I think it makes you look a very nasty person indeed. I have personally met Buzz and neither his chest nor genitalia are dragging on the floor. In fact, when I met him he was running around in the acres of land that the Stortons have, with his hound friends. His 'exaggerated' features certainly didnt stop him then!!<br /> <br />Shame you have to stoop that little bit lower to get your opinion across. Maybe you should call the Stortons personally and tell them how you feel? As you seem to know them quite well. No? Thought not......Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-26678041188672871782012-03-30T18:45:06.665+01:002012-03-30T18:45:06.665+01:00Yes, aren't pictures marvellous - yet the show...Yes, aren't pictures marvellous - yet the show world still argue there is nothing wrong with Buzz but there's a whole host of things wrong with the Albany Bassets.<br /><br />Here are just a few comments I have had in recent days about why my hounds aren't 'proper' bassets;<br /><br />The Albany Basset does not have 'the serious expression that the breed standard asks for'.<br /><br />The Albany hounds can run too fast, therfore they aren't bassets.<br /><br />They are more like Beagles than Basset Hounds<br /><br />The temperament is more like a Beagle than a Basset.<br /><br />The feet of the Albany Basset turns out.<br /><br />The legs of the Albany Basset are too long.<br /><br />The voice of the Albany Basset is more like a Beagle<br /><br />They are poor example of French Artesian hounds<br /><br />Grievous faults indeed but I know which one I would prefer to look like if I were a basset!Alisonnoreply@blogger.com