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Sunday, 6 August 2017

The Frenchies that win by a nose


The dog on the left is Arnie - a former AKC show-dog. You can read more about him here.

The dog on the right is Flint, bred in the Netherlands by Hawbucks French Bulldogs - a breeder trying to establish a new, healthier template for French Bulldogs.

They are both Frenchies. Both purebred. The difference is that the dog on the left has been bred to meet the current interpretation of breed standard - and the dog on the right is the result of selection for a more moderate dog by a breeder who believes that good health is more important than fashion.

I posted the image on Twitter and my CRUFFA Facebook page a couple of days ago and it has already been shared thousands of times, with many people thinking it has been Photoshopped. It hasn't.

I am pleased that most people are deeply shocked by Arnie's profile.  In truth, most Frenchies are not quite this extreme. But he is not totally untypical either - particularly in the US where the breed standard does not have a minimum muzzle length.

Unfortunately, some people are so wedded to the type of dog seen in today's show-ring that they prefer Arnie - or are more shocked by Flint's comparatively-long muzzle. Some have even called Flint "extreme".

"[I prefer] the one on the left to me it's a French bulldog and what I see and love in a French bulldog -the one on the right I don't recognise as a French bulldog," wrote one breeder.

And then this:

"I'd definitely own the left over right! Right is a disgusting example of the breed."

 As ever, what is considered "good type" changes with fashion. This Frenchie was a Champion in 1914.


And this is a famous French Bulldog from 1925.


This dog won Best of Breed at Crufts last year.


And this dog, a slight improvement, won BOB this year.


Neither of the Crufts dogs has a muzzle length anything like the 1/5th of the total head length advocated by the French Bulldog Club of England - or indeed the one-sixth the length of the head demanded in the FCI standard. They are also extremely cobby - particularly the 2016 BOB.  The show Frenchie's back has shortened over the years too, robbing them of the tail they once had and likely contributing to another Frenchie problem - spinal issues.

Unfortunately, stenosis - pinched nostrils - is almost ubiquitous in the show version of the breed, adding to the respiratory risk.

We know from newly-published research  that there isn't an absolute correlation between any one physical feature and breathing difficulties  (there is a panoply of contributory factors that interplay, including neck/chest girth,  intra-nasal obstruction, stenosis, trachea size and obesity).

But as David Sargan from the Cambridge BOAS research team says: "I think breeding for sound open nostrils, for longer and less wide heads, for less boxy body shapes and for less skin would all improve the [extremely brachycephalic] breeds." 

The good news is that there are breeders like Hawbucks breeding for a longer-muzzled, lighter, more athletic dogs with truly open nostrils. I would urge everyone tempted by a French Bulldog to seek them out - and of course be aware that health tests are important too.

The best Frenchie breeders screen for BOAS, hemivertebrae (HV), hereditary cataracts, luxating patellas, degenerative myelopathy (DM) and skin issues/allergies. A low co-efficient of inbreeding is a plus, too - and also ask about longevity (i.e. what age dogs in the pedigree died). Despite the French Bulldog Club of England's claim  that Frenchies can live to 12-14 "on average", this is not true.  In fact, Agria insurance data in Sweden has found that they are the shortest-living of all the breeds and the Finnish KC's database documents an average age of death of just five years old. It's possible that UK dogs live a bit longer, but essentially they're all from the same stock, so it's unlikely to be much longer.

I am an avid collector of pictures of more moderate Frenchies.  Here are a few of them. The first is Flint's mum, Yara - and the last another pic of  Flint. Enjoy!












© Krijn de Haas



97 comments:

  1. Nowt so queer as folk. The healthy looking ones are superb. Now wondering if there are any breeders doing the same for Boston Terriers, as I have a friend who wants one as a companion.

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    1. Most "pet quality" Boston Terriers look like this. Taller, more tail, more muzzle. Just a sturdier dog overall.

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    2. I have a Boston, looking at the pictures I though they're just trying bread a Boston

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  2. I used to work for a vet that bred Himalayan's and she, too, was breeding for healthier cats. I support healthier animals and am saddened over fads in breeding. Example of another extreme is the German Shepard. Are we breeding for the health and longevity of an animal or the vanity, pleasure and entertainment of humans?

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    1. I completely agree with you on the German Shepherd. I hate seeing their hind end look so week now.

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  3. It's great that Flint and his relatives have a longer muzzle. They look more pitbull-like, and that's a very good thing. To be sure, Arnie's face is tragically deformed, and if his fans "prefer" it, that just reveals their ignorance of healthy carnivoran morphology. In truth, even Flint's muzzle is too short. At that length, he may be able to breathe normally, but he is still likely to have dental problems. Dogs are canids, after all and need long muzzles, but it is an improvement.

    I also continue to be disappointed that people persist in breeding for the bobtail, which is a congenital absence or shortness of the tail. Dogs need tails for a number of purposes, and selecting them for bobtails is not trivial. I'm glad those Frenchies with muzzles will be less likely to suffer from BOAS ... but people have still intentionally bred them for deformity, and people like me still notice.

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    1. Just FYI Miro and Yara who are the sire and dam of these pups both have their backs tested. In case you haven't seen my previous comment his info is here. Both parents had their entire body CT scanned. Testing for breathing problems, back problems, an so fourth.

      Please don;t think I;m claiming perfection but Miro has listed about a dental status. Yara has a free movable tail and so does Miro and they were bred for A more sporty conformation which also kind of means a longer back..
      https://www.vombueffelboden.ch/deckr%C3%BCden/
      http://www.hawbucks.nl/franse-bulldog/en/about-yara/

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    2. I’m so glad that my frenchie looks like the moderate ones. Here in the Philippines, it is considered as not “quality”, breeders only consider quality french bulldog like Arnie.

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  4. I'm not a fan of brachycephalic breeds but those Frenchies that have long muzzles almost make me want to buy one for myself!

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    1. Same here. They're much nicer dogs. The people that're for the left are either ignorant, sick, or both. This should be about your dog's well being and not your whims and ignorance.

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    2. I own both breed types.. don’t believe I’m sick or ignorant!! My male has a flat face like Arnie, not as predominant. And my female has a longer muzzle as the UK strain, I love them both & they are both very different dogs.

      Don’t be so quick to judge.

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  5. Arnie is hypertype. Flint completely lacks type and does not resemble a French Bulldog in the slightest. He has strong pitbull-like characteristics. Whereas some of the old French Bulldog photos are far less extreme than Arnie while still being recognisable as a French Bulldog. That is where the sweet spot lies. Health and lack of exaggeration, without the loss of breed type. Otherwise, you might as well just buy a pitbull and forget about the Frenchie entirely.

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    1. Two other puppies from the litter. These are *not* mini pit bulls...

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/cruffa/permalink/1876083752608772/

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    2. If you think these dogs look like pitbulls, you wouldn't know a pitbull if it bit you on the foot.

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    3. I presume you know the difference in character between a French Bulldog and a pitbull?? They are French Bulldog that can breath easier and have a healthier life. They have more nose as the breed used to have (grew up with one in the 1960's).

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    4. I do not find Flint's overly long snout appealing at all. I have no problem with the appearance of any of the other dogs in this article, but if I ever saw him, I'd think he was mixed with something else, and I'd agree with √Čadaoin that he looks like pitbull mix, and yes, I do know what pitbulls look like!

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    5. Because the only difference between a french bulldog and an apbt from the ADBA is nose length...

      Honestly, if you really think that, then neither breed is for you tbh.

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    6. Ridiculous - flint does not look like a pit mix at all. He looks exactly like a purebred french bulldog with a longer muzzle than average - which is exactly what he is.

      Talking about loss of "breed type" - french bulldogs didn't look like arnie when they were first created, they looked far more like flint. If any breeder has lost the type it's arnie's breeder and all others that breed for flat faces.

      I'm not a fan of brachy dogs and probably wouldn't ever own one but flint looks far more like a regular dog and is far more aesthetically appealing to me than arnie.

      I applaud Hawbucks efforts in creating a healthier frenchie - we need more breeders like this.

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    7. Let's just put it as it is - Arnie is a cripple. Pure and simple. Poor dog!

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    8. There is nothing at all pit bull like about Flint. This is why people that breed pit bulls are laughing at you. You know, real pit bulls registered pit bull.
      The head and muzzle are completely different. What Flint looks like is an old style Frenchie before the muzzle was bred off them.
      Pit bulls, for one, have more terrier like muzzles. The standard even calls for a wedge shape. We like to see, in the ADBA a wedge muzzle not just in profile, but also when looking dog on the dogs muzzle. None of these frenchies have that, they have square muzzles.
      The frenchies are a bit lippy. APBTs have tight fitting lips and are notin the least bit flewy.
      Then there is the issue with frenchies being undershot, which is not called for in the APBT standard.

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    9. Flint does not look like a pitbull, but he does look like a mixed dog that was poorly bred.

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    10. No, Flint looks like a true, well bred Frenchie, not the flat faced abominations favoured by breeders today.

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  6. I don't see anything pitbull about Flint at all, I do see mini "bull" and as it's a French bulldog......

    Arnie is typical of a show Frenchie with extreme exaggerations, the type that win shows and turn dogs into sad cripples.

    I think the tide is at last starting to turn. It takes outsiders to notice how badly things were going wrong, but now slowly the fans of the breed will come around, I'm sure.

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  7. Great job! I am glad that these issues are being publicly discussed and revealed.

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  8. I've got a theory about people so breedblind that they can characterize a dog as "disgusting" because it has a muzzle. Have you heard the quote "Things are beautiful if you love them" before? It occurs to me that if you've loved a dog from an extreme brachycephalic breed, perhaps many of them, then they are going to be beautiful to YOU, of course.

    But even more, when you hear or read someone calling these dogs "deformed", it can feel like a personal attack on these dogs which you've loved dearly, and mourned for deeply when they died. It's also like you're saying that the specific dogs you've loved should never have existed in the first place, because if different dogs had been used for the breeding program, then YOUR Mopsi or Pugsley would have never existed in the first place. Oh, sure other puppies would have been born in this alternate timeline, with different looks but equally lovable temperaments... but none of them would have been YOUR cherished Shuggie or Rascal.

    On a visceral level, it feels like breed reform advocates are trying to retroactively rip these much-loved pooches from your memories-- and your heart. No, this isn't logical, but very little about our relationships with our pets is.

    I know that this doesn't explain everything about resistance to reform, but it does seem like it could explain at least part of it.

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    1. I imagine there is quite a lot of that. However surely now that they have been made aware of what was/is going on, in the loving memory of their beloved Mopsies and Pugsleys, they would strive for a healthier breed. That would make their memories less stressful knowing they are doing something good for the breed.

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    2. Your complete disregard for the quality of life of your pet while you center your own memories of "fluffy" is pretty reprehensible. You even admit that you would have a perfectly lovable dog in this alternate timeline but since it doesn't have a face shortened to the point of dyspnea, it doesn't count? Why should you be entitled to this? I highly doubt your dog could have a good quality of life even if it could breathe, so long as it's owner is so totally obsessed with their own relationship with themself instead of their pets lived experience.

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  9. Can I ask how you make these side by side images? I've been wanting to make one of Bull Terriers.

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  10. Thank you for posting these photos. I totally support the campaign to improve the health of Frenchies but sometimes people assume that all Frenchies are problematic and can't breathe and it's just not the case. Well-intentioned folk go on the attack if you say you have a French Bulldog. Our Frenchie is very like photos 4 and 5 and when we've put pictures on Facebook there have been comments about him not being a 'true' Frenchie and we have to explain that the longer muzzle is actually the way the breed is meant to be, not these flat faced mutants that can't breathe, let alone run and play football. A good healthy Frenchie is a joy and we need to make sure we keep to the objective of improving the gene pool and not, as some have previously said, simply do away with the breed entirely.

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    1. Actually, a long snipey muzzle was never the breed founders intentuons. Some of the photos they are using in this article were just as incorrect for dogs back then as they are now. The closest one to GOOD old type is the black and white dog.

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    2. Where is a long snipey muzzle? I can't see one. All I see are short muzzled dogs.

      A long muzzle that is snipey would be a greyhound or whippet.
      These dogs have muzzles less than half the length of a golden retriever, so I dont know what you are smoking to see these muzzles as long and snipey lmao.

      Idiot.

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    3. I dont see a long, snipey muzzle anywhere.

      All these muzzles are short.

      Short meaning shorter than the average muzzle length of a dog. Even the longer frenchies here are MUCH shorter than the average dog.

      Short does not mean non-existent. You need your glasses checked

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    4. Just don't understand how these so called breeders try and shove mixed dogs down akc standard breeders throat.the dogs don't have long snouts but the do have the terrier look which akc frowns upon when registering to show. These dogs were developed for showing not playing football...for gods sake get a different breed and leave the frenchies alone. Why isn't nobody changing the look of the pug? Its because they are not popular like frenchies are.

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    5. Show breeders will swear until they're blue in the face that dogs that are actually true to the breed are ill-bred mutts because they don't conform to what current fashion has turned the breed into.

      You see it especially often in the working breeds. For example; Show breeders will scream themselves hoarse that the often taller, rangier herding dogs with wacky ears and sometimes non-standard colours or patterns and long, prestigious, varied bloodlines are nothing but crossbred mutts, and that their own boxed up, stocky, flashy show dogs who are overly familiar with their close relatives and wouldn't know a sheep if it snuck up and headbutted them in the rear are the true representatives of the breed. Absolute, non-sensical garbage spouted by people who haven't one ounce of sense in their heads.

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    6. No people are trying to change pugs too. They’re health is more important than the look doesn’t matter if they weren’t bred to play football. I want a bulldog that lives longer than 5 years and doesn’t get winded and tired from going up fucking stairs. All brachycephalic dogs need to be bred to be less boxy, and with a longer muzzle

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  11. I think both dogs are on the extreme ends of oppposite spectrums. What is interesting is that neither dog has the underjaw that the standards call for, which is part of what makes it a bulldog in the first place. There are nice Frenchies with moderate muzzles out there that even do shutzhund and agility, and it's sad that the author couldn't be bothered to go interview their owners. Furthermore,I don't care what the breeder "says", the dog on the top right is most definitely mixed with something and a DNA test will surely prove it. The breed standard also says they are cobby. I am not sure why they are attacking that aspect now too. These are lap dogs, not athletes, they don't need to be built like Whippets.

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    1. They've got weird characters for lap dogs! Go to any French bulldog gathering and watch the goings on. Talk of pitbulls they seem to be at each others throats half the time.
      ~
      The point is when is enough enough? When is cobby enough when is an underjaw's turn up enough, when is the head square enough, the muzzle set back enough? When the dog is a crippled mess?!
      ~
      An arbitrary vision of what the dog should look like is someones fantasy of what it should look like as set in the standard. The breed didn't just appear. Taken to their "logical" extremes this vision as defined by what wins in a show ring have not always been kind to dog breeds. Many are today suffering disastrous results of this selection process.

      The tide is turning, as the public begin to understand that health and functional phenotypes are more important than those winning extremes. Typy is the synonym for grotesquely deformed.

      Do or die, eventually those that resist will go extinct along with their long suffering dogs.

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    2. To Anonymous at 23:52

      I hate to burst your bubble but Flint as well as the rest of the litter are genetically proven to be 100% French Bulldog. His mother and father mated naturally and one puppy was whelped naturally before Yara had to go in for a C-Section. You can read ALL about it on her page. FCI requires DNA testing to prove parentage (despite the whole naturally mating thing an all). They obviously don’t want paper hanging to occur and despite your doubts they are all 100% French Bulldog. Yara and Miro are both 100% Frenchie and have the DNA results to prove it and the same goes with the puppies.
      You can see the litter and their pedigree here.
      http://ingrus.net/frbull/en/details.php?id=117583

      https://www.vombueffelboden.ch/deckr%C3%BCden/ This is more of Miro’s info. Yara’s info is already linked in the OP

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    3. A dog can be a "lap dog" while still having the health and energy to romp and play vigorously.

      Underbites originated because some humans thought they'd be an advantage in canine blood sports. Whether this is objectively true or not is another story-- wolves are capable killers of large game with scissors bites, so I kind of doubt there's any functional advantage to having an underbite.

      Be that as it may, all dog lover's today rightly reject bull-baiting and dogfighting as inhumane and immoral, so why are we continuing to perpetuate this trait? At best, it offers no benefits, and at worst it causes pain and frustration to the dog.

      It should be noted that dogs can't tell us whether or they're experiencing pain from TMJ, as many people with malocclusions endure. My sister underwent costly jaw surgery and years of braces to correct her underbite as an adult, just for this reason. There was no aesthetic improvement involved; she just wanted freedom from pain.

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    4. Absolutely! My dogs in fact use my lap as a running spring board to lunch themselves at the ceiling to try and catch gheckos. For sleeping the prime spot they vie for is the back of the big settee where they drape themselves and dream of exciting days to come, little legs twitching in the air. Notice I didn't say "tiny bent legs" like a saucisse" dog. There's never enough space for all of them so as they drop off they slide off onto the cushions bellow. The only one secure enough not to is the one wrapping its warm little belly around my neck, till I get up to make some coffee, or get a book that is. It's a nightly ritual. Even though they're JRTs to position themselves they don't launch into aggressive frenzied assaults on one another.

      Point I was making is that Frenchies are a feisty, dog aggressive breed which is rather unusual for what is considered a "lap" dog, I thought.

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    5. Now I understand this article. It was biased all along. This article was published by a breeder that is pushing its long snout agenda for people to look at. Sadly your dogs will be the ones extinct and in shelters if you keep breeding that messy mix. Its breeders like you that take it to the extreme and want to abolish the standard for your personal views. Why wasn't there any real breeders that show in akc interviewed? Why aren't the health tests and dna test also published wi

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    6. "Long snout agenda" LOL. I think you mean "Healthy dog agenda". Many people that have/had frenchies and learned after they owned them how sick they can get. I embrace the reform as much as I embraced my flat faced lil fuzzy man.

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  12. There is veru little that is right in a frenchie DAWF BREED...why not just eliminate him and the english and everyone breed sibs only...Frenchie have never had a nuzzle like FLINT .....Flint looks like he could even have an even or scissors bite but I guess that is better for eating

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  13. "They are both Frenchies. Both purebred." - how sad. I hope that the breeder who REALLY breeds for health will know that breeding within the closed population that has health issues is not the way to go.

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  14. "Finnish KC's database documents an average age of death of just five years old."
    Now stating this, you should also mention that this is purely based on what the owners have reported. There is no guarantee that the ages are correctly reported or the cause of death is accurate. And to be precise, the average age for 5 year 7 months, not 5 years as you stated.
    Also only 503 are reported dead (done by owners). Also when dog dies out of old age, it's not so common to report them.
    And 39 out of 503 reported deaths are caused by accidents or traffic (avg age of 3 yrs 1 months) and reported missing are 3 dogs (avg 3 yrs 7 months). 50 of reported deaths are out of old age (11 years 2 months).

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    1. 11 years isn't particularly old for a small breed.

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    2. Might not be, but it's far more older than stated 5 years. Also I would like to see statements based on facts (not roughly rounded numbers) and if the used source of information is known to be inaccurate, it would be a good journalist practice to inform about it (or not to use/mention that source and its data at all).

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    3. As a fellow Finn I can confirm, that Finnish KC:s statistics are slightly biased. Anonymous has told the reasons for it above (owners whose pets have died early are more eager to inform others). Nevertheless, I assume that even thought data is not perfect, it truly helps to compare lifespans between different breeds.

      For example, Australian kelpie's lifespan seems to be ~13 years and Shetland sheep dog's about 10 years. It is quite the same as Greyhound's and Finnish Spitz'.

      On the other hand, breeds like English bulldog (5 yrs), St. Bernard (6 yrs) and Frenchie (~5 yrs) have remarkably lower lifespans if compared to any other breed. It is impossible (or at least, ridiculous) to claim that differences this big were either accidental or irrelevant!

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  15. An average age of death based on owner reporting is more accurate than an overly optimistic figure made up by a breed enthusiast.

    BTW, do you have any valid, objective sources to support your claim that owners whose dogs reach a good age before dying are less likely to participate in such surveys? It seems to me that such owners would be proud of their dogs health and longevity, not to mention their own good care.

    I should also point out that no one actually dies of "old age". All of us-- humans as well as animals-- die because something killed us, whether it's being hit by a car, or liver failure. Aging does make you more vulnerable to a long list of medical conditions, but so does breeding for unhealthy conformations in a small gene pool.

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    1. No I don't have any valid, objective source to support that. Only my own observations, knowing the individuals within my own breed and keeping a close eye which of them are reported to be dead (in breed groups vs. FCK database).
      And yes, it's not the age that kills, but the failing organs. Also you could say no one gets killed by a car, it's the blood loss or the heart that stopped beating or the lungs that failed. You could go on and on debating on this matter, but we both know what we mean when we say die of old age or getting hit by a car.

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    2. Multiple organ failure can also occur as the result of prolonged physiological stress from cancer, genetic diseases, or brachycephalic syndrome, at a far earlier age than randombred dogs of the same size.

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    3. Actually, no: Being hit by a car is a single event at a given time. Thus whether a dog dies upon impact or lingers a few days at the vet's, you can clearly identify that "being hit by a car" was the cause of death.

      In contrast, aging is a gradual event, with an ultimately subjective "finish line". Sixty used to be considered old; now many would consider it "middle-aged".

      TL;DR: If dogs of your favored breed are dying at an age at which the average pet mutt of the same size would be expected to still be going strong, then they're NOT dying of "old age".

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  16. I think the longer-nosed Frenchies look more like boxer puppies than pit bulls, personally. Either way, they're handsome little imps and I want one!

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    1. Yes ha ha. Now they just need a tail.

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    2. Yes ha ha. They just need a tail too. Im not sure what the tail looked like in old French bulldogs.

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  17. Hello, I don't do Facebook but regularly read your CRUFFA page, thought you might want to put these two studies up that have been reported by CavalierHealth.org "Widespread syringomyelia and craniocervical junction abnormalities are found in study of 53 Chihuahuas." http://www.cavalierhealth.org/sm2.htm#Widespread_syringomyelia_and_craniocervical_junction_abnormalities_are_found_in_study_of_53_Chihuahua" and "Chiari-like malformation is found in 100% of 1,020 cavaliers in Belgium and the Netherlands and syringomyelia in 39%." http://www.cavalierhealth.org/sm2.htm#Chiari-like_malformation_is_found_in_100%_of_1,020_cavaliers_in_Belgium_and_the_Netherlands_and_syringomyelia_in_39
    Crossbreeding looks the only way forward for the Cavalier. I have been crossbreeding Cavaliers (Your documentary opened my eyes) now for 8 years. First using the Miniature Poodle which we then crossed back in to the pure and the F1b 3/4 Cavalier 1/4 poodle looks like a Cavalier with a less extreme head, but unfortunately this cross does not seem to improve the occurrence of CM, as all our three Poodle crosses so far that we have MRI scanned have been graded CM2, but the improvement in muzzle length, eye anatomy and their is a slight lengthening of the cranium will hopefully mean that progression to SM is less likely. I believe though using the diminutive Toy Poodle would add to the problems of the Cavalier rather than give any valid improvement due to their miniaturization and we see CM/SM in miniaturized breeds as well as brachy breeds.
    A couple years ago we brought the Brittany in and this year at two years old we MRI scanned two bitches we kept back from that litter. The mother a Cavalier at 4 years old was CM2 SM1 and her and the two bitches from her litter with the Brittany have been graded CM0 (Clear of CM). It can then be done with one cross, but the only draw back with this cross is the dogs are just a bit bigger than a Cavalier, although distinctly spaniel looking and it is just getting the size back a bit.
    So the next stage of the project begins in a couple months time when the two Brittany/Cavalier girls are crossed back in to the Cavalier. One will go back to a pure Cavalier and one is going back to a 3/4 Cavalier 1/4 Poodle dog, as I believe that there is anatomical improvement enough in the Poodle cross skull from the pure Cavalier skull. Then it is a year to two year wait to MRI scan offspring of these litters to see if the cross out attaining CM0 can be crossed back in and the CM improvement can be retained.
    You don't have to publish this comment or anything about my breeding project ( I get enough shit from purists), but please publish the two research articles above on your CRUFFA page.

    Jane Howarth

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    1. At least you're working on a way forward for the breed. I'm doing something similar for Satin rabbits here, however their issue is a tiny gene pool which leads to high rates of infertility and genetic weakness which leaves them vulnerable to malocclusion and infectious disease. Basically, their immune systems suck. I should probably specify that the reason their gene pool is so tiny here is because very few were ever imported when it was legal, and show demands purity so no outcrossing allowed. But I don't show my rabbits as I don't care for it. What I do care for is the health and wellbeing of the rabbits and preserving the Satin gene in the population here.

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  18. Great initiative! Do you if there is a Pug breeder with the same aims?

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  19. I am looking for a Pug breeder with the same ideas, do you know someone?

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  20. I just found this by serendipity and thought I'd share:

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171005141759.htm

    In short, even Paleolithic Era humans understood that inbreeding was a bad idea!

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  21. I've said it before and I'll say it again you people are not going to be happy until nobody can enjoy going to a dog show or enjoy showing their dogs in one. You won't be happy until all purebred breeds have been mongrelized and there are no purebred dogs of any breed left in existence.

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    1. She is going to be happy, as will millions of other people, when no dog is intentionally bred into suffering. There are alternatives. It is SO EASY to breed a dog with just a few centimeters of nose, just a bit less wrinkle, a bit more leg, and a bit more tail. It is a psychopathic level of selfishness to breed dogs like these.

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    2. If that is all you got out of this article then you are shortsighted and, dare I say, stupid. This is not about eliminating purebred dogs or the "mongrelization" of all dogs (as if there is something wrong with mutts in the first place). It is about breeding a HEALTHIER purebred dog. The animal's health should be more important that what looks aesthetically appealing to a human. If it were considered popular to cut off dog's ears because people suddenly found it to look endearing, would you agree with that, or would it put the animal through unnecessary pain just because someone decided it looked pretty? Of course not, unless you just like causing pain.

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    3. Bad example. Ear cropping is still desired in many breeds and legal in many places.

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  22. Arnie's dog does indeed seem photoshoped or deformed..

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    1. He's deformed for sure. A super-rosette winning show dog, who had virtually no will to live, was taken to Germany for surgery, and was among the worst cases of obstructed airways the experts there had ever seen. His full story is on this blog.

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  23. Sadly this is pointles. Every FB breeder know that lenght of mouth have nothing to do with breathing broblems, its fact. This looks like breeder who own very bad standard of breed looking for excuse to continue breeding and find it this way. Its patology. Make reserch first about what issue cause breathing system problems in FB breed

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    1. Perhaps you would like to tell us what causes breathing problems in FB breed, Anonymous?

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  24. Are any Frenchie breeders doing this in the US?

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    1. I was just wondering the same thing too! Would love to know of some US breeders set on improving the health of brachy breeds like Bostons and Frenchies. So far, the only thing equivalent that I can find in the US are breeders of Olde Boston Bulldogges or at least what it seems the IOEBA seems to be setting out to do... Anyone know of any breeders similar to Hawbucks here in the states?

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  25. I love Purebred Dogs but i like the one on the right more.

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    1. Maybe you should look into a different breed.

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  26. Thank you for this useful article. We have always believed that the most benefitial part of owning a dog is to get a loyal friend and a great companion that will provide you with all the possible love in the world. For us it doesn`t matter if the Frenchie looks like the one on the left or like the one on the right. They are dogs and deserve our unconditional love without being judged.
    You can check us at frenchieholics.com we have interesting articles and products dedicated to this lovely breed – French Bulldog. We are new in this world of Frenchie websites, but we are trying hard. Thank you!

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    1. I dont agree with this article. It involves modifying a bloodline that has been developing for years. The frenchies are targeted for their popularity, I dont see pugs that are being bred for longer snouts? If you like frenchies accept them as they are. Otherwise people will fill the shelters with mixed breed dogs trying to correct the snout. This part is what the article doesn't explain. There's a process in order to breed out certain qualities. It doesn't happen over night. Im sorry to say that the originator of this article is wrong when they say those long snout frenchies are pure bred. I would like to see the dna tests to prove purity.

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  27. Im so happy to find this thread. Im a new Frenchie owner but have been in the purebred dog world with Amstaffs for many years. I have seen the effect the show ring can have on the health and working ability of purebred dogs. When I purchased my Frenchie, I wanted a dog with a longer muzzle and a little less square. I love how my puppy is coming along and my vet was absolutely thrilled to see a Frenchie that wasnt extremely overdone. He raved about his muzzle length and how he is excited to see how his health holds up over the years versus the shorter muzzle shorter back dogs that he sees most often.

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    1. If you show dogs,this statement should ring false. All breeders breed for that perfect akc standard specimen.

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  28. Hi I have a pure bred Frenchie girl with a long nose.
    She does not have any breathing difficulties whatsoever and makes no snoring sounds.
    I live Germany and you can often see moderate Frenchies here.
    My heart bleeds for poor Arnie. :-(

    Here's a pic of my little one (she is 1 year old btw.): https://ibb.co/R0qst5D

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    1. He is cute, but does not meet the akc standards.

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    2. Maybe the AKC standards should be changed. They ought to reflect traits based on the overall health of the breed.

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  29. Hi, I live in England and would love to find a breeder of frenchies with long muzzle's. If anyone has recommendations it would be greatly appreciated

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    1. www.frenchbullies.ca works with a breeder in Hungary. I own a blue female who is three and she is perfection! longer snout and a bit longer legs like the 1900's frenchies. Less health issues as well.

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  30. I have a 4 month old Frenchie male I got about 6 weeks ago. He has a longer snout with a little longer legs. I am told he looks more like the Frenchies that were bread in Europe back in the late 1800’s early 1900’s. He does have a little wrinkling around his nose and eyes but I’m sure will change plenty in the next year. He also has a little longer neck. Reading all of the issues Frenchies have, it sounds like a longer snout Frenchie is the way to go. I’m in Texas.

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    1. Maybe ask the akc see if they will accept these long snout frenchies.

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  31. I have a purebred male Frenchie with a longer nose and has a longer tail. He is 5 months old. I got him from a breeder in Texas. I have had many naysayers when posting his picture on Facebook that he is not purebred and is possibly mixed. He looks more like Flint but is a Cream and Fawn color.

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  32. I am so glad that others are finding this overbreeding of Frenchies, as they do in the US/AKC/CKC to be disgusting and dangerous for the dogs. I have a beautiful frenchie named Ella who is 3yrs old and we always wondered if she was not a purebred as she came from Europe and has a longer nose and sleeker body than the North American version. She looks just like these dogs!!! Def less health issues, although she is still allergic to many foods, etc. as is typical. Raw diet helps with that. Thank you for this posting.

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  33. These long nose frenchies are for the non akc showing people. Yes I get it,they have breathing issues, why isn't anyone going to akc and trying to change the standard? As breeders we breed for standard to show in akc events. Why isn't anyone targeting pugs and stretching their snouts too? People want fancy French house lap dogs but also want them to have the mobility of a Labrador. These dogs are not meant for heavy activities just like the English bulldog. I for one disagree with elongated snouts, I am a dog lover but these long snout frenchies make me cringe. There is a fine line where people will breed for health and keep the look of the breed and just avoiding the look and breeding completely for health. How about they just look at terriers instead of making mixed dogs that only a handful of people will adopt? Because in reality no one wants a dog that doesn't look like the akc standard.

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    1. So the problem is the AKC standard promoting unhealthy traits in dogs, and breeders who "cringe" when they see a dog which has been bred to be more healthy. Look at pictures of dogs from 100 years ago and they have the longer snouts. It is the AKC and others which have deviated from the original bed characteristics.

      Some pugs are now being bred to have longer snouts, as are British Bulldogs, so your assertion that this isn't happening is incorrect

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    2. Pugs are Pugs. Please don't do the whole whataboutism. There are plenty of people in this thread that say they would prefer a frenchie with a longer snout. Educate your customers and tell them you are breeding for longer life. Make a stand. The way you are talking, breeders are just in it for the money. Sad.

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  34. A few years back we toured Canada in one of their huge mobile homes. We saw 'British' dog breeds everywhere (they obviously love dogs) but the were the shapes of dogs I used to see when I was much younger - NOT what we see now being dragged around Crufts. Over 60 years ago we owned a large Pekinese - not the minute, over-hairy, ultra-flat-nosed scrap with popping eyes that we see now which can barely breathe, let alone walk. He was long legged and what used to be called a 'Lion Peke' with a nose more like the right hand Frenchie above. He walked everywhere with us - even up Snowdon and back. He was a lion by name and a lion by nature and always won dog fights by biting the opposers underbelly and would have defended us to the death should anyone try to harm us! We should be looking abroad for some of our beautiful breeds that have not been totally ruined by show breeders!

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  35. God its so embarrassing to see so many people in these comments trying their very hardest to stretch and jump to the worst conclusions possible, and to make the worst possible excuses as to why they support breeding dogs like poor Arnie. I understand the sentimentality, you wouldn't want to be told your kid is a genetic mistake either but... If the shoe fits:)

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  36. Hello, i am a university student studying ecosystem management, i usually don't comment on things like this; however, If you are breeding ANYTHING without the intention of producing healthy and happy specimens than why are you breeding at all?! The breeders that have commented are DEPLORABLE. You KNOW, you know that you have to provide DNA tests to be registered by the AKC, so let that GO. That argument on it's own basis is invalid, you aren't getting anywhere there. Also i feel disgusted that any person would learn how to breed a dog and then try to defend obvious health problems. Let's start with the fact that most Frenchies have been bred so small that they cannot deliver puppies naturally? How is that fair?! if we abandoned this domesticated dog breed and left it to survive in the wild THEY WOULD DIE OUT. There are no c-sections out in the wilderness. There are no special vets that would preform surgeries on them so that they could breathe. These are indicators that the breed itself has become a mockery of what it once was. TO THE BREEDERS PERPETUATING THIS: i don't want your dog, i don't want to see any of yours dogs being shown, i would gladly purchase a puppy from someone breeding the dog to further a HEALTHY BREED. ONE MORE TIME FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK: if a dog cannot procreate without human help (as many toy breeds have become) IT WOULD NOT SURVIVE WITHOUT YOU. If a dog has problems breathing at rest, while sleeping and has a limited mobiility due to breathing issues; IT IS NOT HEALTHY. if you are not breeding with the purpose of adding, healthy and beneficial specimens, then stop NOW. if you are in it for the money and don't care STOP NOW. Who gives a f**k about what the dog looks like if every moment in it's life it suffers? How do you advertise that? BUYERS/FUTURE PET PARENTS: do your research, purebred can take many forms, if that is what you're after please take the time to find a dog that will live a healthy long life with you.

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  37. Save the purebred pedigree line? Think about how the various breeds BECAME breeds with a registry! At a certain point, fanciers decided THESE specific studs were producing the animal that the fanciers wanted to own. Those studs were not "purebreds" until they were documented as foundation sires.
    I am more familiar with horses, so that's where I am going for my example. The Morgan horse came from a little stallion in New England who belonged to Justin Morgan, hence the name. He could do a lot of things well, and farmers and horse fanciers realized that his offspring were much like their sire. He became a very popular sire and his offspring seemed to carry much the same prepotency. The Morgan Horse Registry was eventually founded and standards were established, to keep the short, slightly stocky, very versatile horses coming. Justin Morgan's (the horse, that is) ancestry was not really known. The only certainty is that he was not a purebred Morgan!
    Over the years, horse fashions changed. People started wanting something flashier in the show ring and didn't care how much the horse could pull or how fast he could run or trot, or even how good his disposition was. By the time I was riding in local horse shows, Morgans looked pretty much like the American Saddlebred in the show ring--taller, longer legs, flashy gaits (with hooves grown longer and shod for high action, not quite as extreme as the Tennessee Walkers, but still stressing the legs and feet.) Even the Morgans shown in harness were chosen for flashy action and size. These horses specialized (well, their owners did--the horse had no choice!)
    Eventually, the breed practically divided into old-type Morgans (the University of Vermont kept to the old standards) and the modern show Morgan. There is now a separate registry for the old-type Morgan: shorter, more versatile, good disposition, and holding to the old standard. The Lippincott Morgan registry is trying to maintain the original Morgan Horse genetics. They are both beautiful animals, but I prefer good disposition and versatility over show ring flash. The show ring always rewards the current fashion; I prefer to own the healthy, useful horse that is a pleasure to be around and can enjoy a long life.
    Taking any genetics to an extreme using a limited gene pool will lead to problems. As veterinary science uses more and more high tech tools, more of these problems will come to light. As breeders and owners of these animals, we have a responsibility to make their lives a good as possible. Breeding to standards that lead to injury, pain, health problems, shortened lives is not ethical. "Fashion" is a terrible standard to impose on a living creature; it is a fabrication of publicity and advertising designed to increase someone's fame or profit, and the only certainty to fashion is that it will change shortly!

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  38. So leave the flaws there to breed even more problems? No. You get out lines then bring tight. You balance the breeding to improve the gene pool not for looks. For fit for purpose, longer and better lifestyle not a short life riddled with problem after problem. The arrogance of 'pure' bloodlines to ruin the health of any breed staggers me. Give me a healthy mutt any time that has 15 healthy years over say what 7 or 8 years riddled with breathing issues, hip dysplasia dental issues. Damn people suck.

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  39. I have a special Hate on for people obsessed with modern Breed Standard that results in animals who can't survive or breed without post industrial age medical intervention.

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  40. The AKC standards are absolute DOG SHITE. Anyone chasing certificates instead of the health of the dogs they own and breed, should take a good look at themselves very very carefully.

    Anyone chasing certificates to make money on people who haven't done their research should do the same! SHAME ON YOU ALL!

    And for all the people who didn't do their research, I feel sorry for you. Your poor beloved pets :(

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  41. We adopted our dog ¨salsa¨ mix of french bulldog with yorkie. He looks just like Flint and we love him.
    You can see more of him on his IG
    https://www.instagram.com/frenchbulldogyorkie/

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  42. I have two frenchie girls - mother and daughter - who fall in the middle between Arnie Ana flint muzzle wise…
    The older was chosen from a line with longer muzzle, and when we chose to breed her ( naturally ofcourse and natural birth too) we went for a male with the longer muzzle and in general longer legs too….
    Now we have what I in my mind consider a heathy ‘old type’ frenchie ( mom) and a formula one frenchie - the daughter is taller, slimmer, faster, bouncier and soooo beautiful!!!! We plan to breed her this winter, and again we found a male with longer muzzle and longer legs….
    We LOVE the frenchie mind and temprament, but I will not support or breed dogs that are so stunted that they can’t even play for more than a few minutes….
    Our younger girl loves to run at our fence line with the neighbors Labrador - and she wins every time!!!

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