The five-year-old bitch - which has great health test results (A/A hips, 0/0 elbows, no patella problems, a Clear eye certificate and DNA tested clear of PDP1) is one of the most decorated Clumbers of all time (in fact taking the Bitch CC at Crufts 2010). She also has some hunting qualificiations. Now she's not much like the working-bred Clumbers that can still be found working on some shoots in the UK - but at least her owners have made some effort and she's not the heffalump that some of the Clumbers are.
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| Above, Chervood Snowsun and, below, a working Clumber |
I am guessing that ectropion is the reason for the disqualification. It is endemic in the show version of the breed (and in truth the workers are not immune either, although on the whole are better). Here's a pic of the dog that won Best of Breed at Richmond Champ Show last summer. I hate to see dogs with eyes like this - especially on a gundog - and there are way too many of them, in too many breeds, in the show-ring. One less of them today, I guess (assuming the DQ was for ectropion).
"Crufts", it says, "the show where dreams come true."
Jem, I just looked at that link, it seems it was not their last years CC winner that won but
ReplyDeletetheir 12 month old youngster!
Dog World reports that it's because of bilateral ectropion and secondary conjunctivitis.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dogworld.co.uk/shopimages/products/normal/mainsite/certificate.jpg
ReplyDeleteThey must not have liked all your photos of dogs with droopy eyes. I wonder if there's a stock for doggy eyelid surgeons in the UK, because the price of that stock is going to go up.
The DW site has the vet's actual notes so it's all confirmed. Much is being made of the fact that this (Croatian) dog has reportedly passed previous health tests and has a form of working cert.... wonder if he did achive that if such a youngster!
ReplyDeleteEctropion is not hard to detect so you must worry that it wasn't spotted experienced and respected judge.
Well it was in fact a very experienced judge and a senior KC member - Dog World boss Ferelith Somerfield, so the fall-out should be interesting. The problem with Clumbers is that ectropian is almost a breed feature, as it is with the Neapolitans. Their day tomorrow.,,
ReplyDeleteJemima
just seen someone say how awful it is that these dogs are being kicked out and they are dreading how many breeds will be thrown out of the working group tomorrow.Poor exhibitors and judges
ReplyDeletePerhaps if someone ( who does not support the health checks)can predict what breeds will fail before the event that just proves they have some very obvious problems.
Its not the vets fault when they prove you right is it?
The working dogs are so much prettier than the show dogs, in all the breeds I've ever seen. Why don't breeders strive for dogs that can perform the same use they were bred to perform? Why don't judges start placing the dogs that are capable of performing? What I've read on this blog so far is forcing me to re-think my opinions on many breeds, as all I've been exposed to previously are the show types.
ReplyDeleteRubbish, working ones have this eye defect. Dont beleive me view all hs working sites and see.
DeleteThere are also many other breeds that carry this fault to some degree. My clumbers have hip scores of 9 and one bitch is scored 0 1 Breedersare breeding for less exageration.
Again the UK policing the world and making enemies in the process.
my clumbers are bred to breed type the type they are supposed to be not weedy little things with no bone or substance and yes they can do a days work and give the so called workers a run for there money and do what they were bred to do all those years ago i would love to see these working ones go through thick under growth and come out unscathed clumbers were not bred for retrieving but for flushing
DeleteAre the KC going to stop these dogs from being entered into future shows or ban them from breeding?
ReplyDeleteBreeders have changed many breeds by so much that they are unfit for purpose or just unnatural freaks. All breeders should look back to the way the dogs were 70 years ago - too many have been changed due to fashion - it says a lot when show people call dogs with certain features "working" and others as show. I would rather have a Working GSD rather than the mutant roach backs - can 1 person name a dog with this mutation? if you can then you don’t know anything about dogs! The only thing is the hyena and that is a different classification – its own Family: Hyaenidae whereas dogs Family : Canidae
Another thing I'm hearing from my friends is that the dogs have not changed in hundreds of years. How can they say they're unhealthy now? Spend a couple of minutes on Google and you can find pictures of past champions. Today's Peke looks absolutely nothing like the foundation dogs that were imported. They also look nothing like the dogs of the 60s, video of them running hurdles can be easily found on Google. The Westminster winner had to be place on an ice pack to prevent overheating from waddling around a show ring. It is time to stop intentionally breeding for deformity.
ReplyDeleteI am not an animal rights extremist. I fully support pure bred dogs and own one myself that is on the Crufts list for closer Vet inspection. I can no longer watch my own breed stagger around the show ring, what has been done to those dogs through selective breeding for exaggerated useless features is criminal.
A little scoop:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2012/03/the-chalk-got-in-their-eyes.html
Although I understand why this is being done, I think that *all*of the 'high-profile' breeds should be examined by the show vet(s) PRIOR to judging. I suppose that the absence of a particular breed in the group ring sends a message, but I think it's unfair to the other breed exhibitors who may well have passed the vet check and gone onto BOB and group. I predict we'll see a few more dogs not pass on Saturday.
ReplyDeleteCorrection Feffie Somerfield Use to be in charge of Dog World but hasnt been for 15 or more years, and the Vets reports have not been made public and will not be untill next week. Odd how you didnt mention the other breeds that DID pass the tests ChowChow, Pug , Etc
ReplyDeletebecause we come to bury Caesar not to praise him
Delete"Why don't breeders strive for dogs that can perform the same use they were bred to perform"
ReplyDeleteMany breeds were breed to fight each other or large game.. think we should still breed for that?
Large game, yes. Obviously dog fighting is illegal in the USA but people still use TRUE American Pit Bull Terriers for hog and coyote hunting.
Delete"The Westminster winner had to be place on an ice pack to prevent overheating from waddling around a show ring"
ReplyDeletepatently false.. an outright lie
Right it was the pek who won Crufts 2003 who is famous for that. BIG difference, or not. The Pek that won Westminster sort of looked like putting it on an icepack insted of a trophy would have been a good idea.
DeleteI've seen photographs of Malachy lying on his ice pack. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USA
Deleteyou live in Florida.. I am sure you have seen many dogs on ice packs. But the Peke was not put on an ice pack at Westminster in front of the camera.. let's at least keep our information clear.
DeleteOh really? It only takes me a few seconds to google "Westminster Malachy" and find several pictures of him laying on a blue ice pack/cooling mat.
DeleteI have read the Pekingese standard (different versions in different languages too), and to me, it seems Pekingese judges either have never learned to read, or they are trying to find the dog LEAST like what the standard is asking for.
"Nose: Not too short", "Muzzle: Must be evident, but may be relatively short", "Hair: Moderately long", "Length and volume of coat should neither impair the activity of the dog nor obscure the shapeliness of body. Excessive coat must be heavily penalised."
http://www.petside.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fullsize_slideshow_image/slideshows/malachy-pekingese-closeup.jpg
Um... WHAT?
http://www.toledoblade.com/image/2012/02/15/800x600_b1cCM/Malachy-a-Pekingese-poses-for-pictures-after-being-named-best-in-show.jpg
Poor bastard doesn't even have nostrils.
The key is 'can/could perform' - in other words, conformation, not 'will perform', which, in terms of fighting, is an action based on temperament, which is different. As a 4th generation purebred terrier breeder and owner of a couple of working breeds, I have been horrified at the mutated dogs I see. So many of the terriers have gone from agile, lithe little dogs to heavy, slow, coarse things that could never work and are beginning to suffer from exaggerations in stature. My friend imported an American Champion, I couldn't believe it - at
ReplyDeleteleast 50% larger than the standard called for, and with a straight shoulder and associated odd front assembly that meant she was slow and had nothing like the endurance the breed should have. I wondered, how on earth could successive judges reward this dog as a good example if the breed.
I've been amazed at the nonsense people have been spouting in support of breed exaggeration, mostly to do with 'they've always been like that' and 'they did such-and-such function, that's why they're that way', most of which is completely false. Even saw a bulldog breeder claiming the dogs are bred that way because that's how they needed to be for bull baiting. What a laugh, the modern bulldog would be uttely useless for any sort of physcial activity and in no way could be said to be 'fit for function'. The biggest problem is idiot judges who haven't got the faintest idea about breed function
and simply reward exaggeration. Let's name and shame those judges, and the breeders too, for ruining our working breeds.
Ok I'm going to join the debate. With a simple question, what if these dogs put forward were the best example of the classic dog breed? Surely it would make more sense to allow that dog to go through if nothing else but to let the breeders see where they should be progressing towards?
ReplyDeleteI don't agree that mongrels are the way forward. I own mongrels but like every other dog they suffer from inherited problems, only because it's a mongrel it's not classed as such by a vet why? Because normal Joe blogs doesn't know their dogs 'pedigree' to identify where it came from. Also combining lines of dogs which both have differing health issues can produce that problem in a more extreme form in their offspring.
The labradoodle, springador, chug and various other mongrels are ALL ticking time bombs in which the same thing will happen and then where do you turn?
You do exactly what most respected breeders are doing and breed away from the problem with the best tools your given through years of scientific genetics research.
Interview......
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubTCBN_l1E
ofcourse I agree with all the worthy comments but there are dogs out there suffering awfully with this condition which can be dealt with surgically WHY NOT my vet refered my dog to an eye specialist what sort of vet is looking after these show dogs that should be insisting on this remsdy at least /
ReplyDeleteand the releif to the dog is fantastic ,I took on a clumber not realising the potential horror of this condition,heart ruling head now she passed away of old age I would not encourage the breeders by getting another until this condition is treated with the same degree of breeding selection of other dire problems
p.s I have been told the eye operation might take away the breed spec with regard to shape of eye diamond shape.. what tosh is that
a good eye specialist would attend to that too ! but why should it matter
once again back to the KC
I have a bitch that has had entropion.She was opperated on at the age of 6 years old.The eyes are now scarred but she has no discomfort anymore.The poor girl suffered for 6 years.
ReplyDeleteI can't understand why the KC wont allow her to be shown again after the opperation but will alllow her to have pups.
Not that we want to show her.She was made Champion by her previous owners whilst suffering with the entropion.All for a few bits of cards and a tittle.
The tittle means nothing to us or her.
Her breed is on the high profile list.
She is a rescue girl who has cost us a lot of money.The best money we have ever spent.She is the happiest dog you could ever wish to meet.Now 11 years old.
you do realise by airing all your thoughts on here, the blogger is sitting back laughing her old gun boots off dont you!
ReplyDeletePeople need to know what goes on.I don't think anyone would laugh at my dog what she has gone through.
DeleteWhat I laughed at was when a BIS judge at crufts was one who gave her a ticket.
so why did you show your dog afterwards ????
DeleteReading the post, it would appear that it was the dog's previous owners that let the dog suffer, and the owner now, who has had the dog operated on to save it any more suffering.
DeleteShe has not been shown whilst she has been with us.It is against KC rules to show a dog that has been operated on for entropion.
DeleteIt wouldn't have been against any rules to breed from her.This I find very strange.
Needless to say we had her spayed.
Now which bit about a dog suffering for six years because of untreated entropian do you think that I find funny?
ReplyDeleteJemima
Now which owner and vet let a dog suffer for 6 years?
Deletejem you go on about the show clumber but you were not there at the clumber benches when a working clumber went of its legs and the vet had to be called and give it numerous injections so how can you say these are better and fitter than our show type and its eyes wernt that better either
DeleteWell, was it ectropion or not?
ReplyDeleteThe owner said it wasn't "entropion," which is the opposite condition.
Yes, ectropion with secondary conjunctivitis.
ReplyDeleteJemima
I'm surprised by this one being disqualified, even if she doesnt look like a working Clumber. I've seen worse examples, with more severe eye problems, in the show ring.
ReplyDeleteAnd even more surprised that the judge was Ferelith Somerfield, one of the UK's most experienced and thorough show judges , who can normally be relied on NOT to put up a dog who is unsound or unhealthy in any way.
That dog pictured the so called working dog.. looks nothing like the working Clumbers I know personally. they still have the large jowls thick ears and heavy set body.. that has always been a breed trait.. they are not like many other spaniels
ReplyDeleteALSO one of my friends breeds and shows Brittanys, and also works them. the dog which had great conformation had the worst workign ability and no instinct. however her dog with the best conformation (won best dog this year) also has best hunting instinct.... so... what does that say? there are many many people who show and who place huge importance on workign ability too. dont put all breeders into the same bucket!
I wish to show and breed dogs when I have the time, and would love to do it with poodles... I also hope to do agility and schutzhund during and after their show careers...
showing is a hobby to most, as is agility to most.