tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post8133853790013330963..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Fuck closed stud books. Fuck them to hell.Jemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-23295127609364856362021-06-03T13:23:01.609+01:002021-06-03T13:23:01.609+01:00No, no, no. You have it backwards. The Mudi isn...No, no, no. You have it backwards. The Mudi isn't one of the healthiest breeds IN SPITE of having been a working breed until very recently, the Mudi is one of the healthiest breeds BECAUSE it has been a working breed until very recently. You say that working dog breeders aren't responsible. Why? Because they don't usually health test? And it isn't ironic that epilepsy has started to work its way into the breed. Epilepsy has started to work its way in BECAUSE show has gotten a hold of the breed.<br /><br />Let me put it in simple terms. Breeders of working dogs select for one thing. Working ability. In selecting for working ability, the form follows that function. The health is good and the lifespan long because no farmer is going to buy or breed a dog from stock that has a short lifespan. A good working dog is worth its weight in gold. Farmers want herding dogs that are efficient (which requires them to be able bodied and fit with clear airways and no conditions that would interfere with their work), and capable of working for at least 10 years. This leads to a long lived, fit, healthy breed with great genetic diversity because the smaller the gene pool is, the shorter the life span becomes and the more prone to disease a breed is. <br /><br />Working dog breeders very rarely, if ever, breed related dogs. But what is the first thing a show breeder does? Breed 2 closely related individuals together in order to 'lock in' desired traits. That is why epilepsy has cropped up in the Mudi. Because a bunch of so-called "responsible" show breeders who completely disregard genetic science and think they know best got their filthy mitts on the breed and will subsequently ruin it, just as show breeders have done for every other working breed they've touched, and will continue to do so for every future working breed they take an interest in. It's like King Midas, only instead of turning everything they touch into gold, they turn them into disease riddled shadows of what they were. The fact that the standard bans 2 colours that are known to be in the breed says it all. It won't take them long to discard 90% of the existing genetic material in the breed in the persuit of making all dogs a carbon copy of each other. Why do you think show bred dogs have such narrow gene pools in the first place?Skyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14845305990983021847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-45889810488826364942017-06-22T10:23:20.601+01:002017-06-22T10:23:20.601+01:00I suspect it's got worse recently but has been...I suspect it's got worse recently but has been a problem that has slowly been growing for many decades. Maybe now it's reached a crisis point but it isn't something that has been caused recently.<br /><br />I think my future dogs will all be crossbreeds or mongrels in the hopes they'll live longer and be healthier. It was extremely hard to lose my first (purebred BC) dog to cancer (though he was at least 11 years old, probably more), I certainly don't want to go through it again anytime soon.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17520676743458940905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31568377858733801232017-06-22T10:16:08.711+01:002017-06-22T10:16:08.711+01:00That's an excellent idea since their purpose a...That's an excellent idea since their purpose and temperament is still so similar. The major difference is of course colour. If the two breeds could be combined once again, then puppies born gold can be goldens and puppies born black can be flat coats - similar to the way the belgian shepherd breed is handled in Belgium; there are 4 types within the breed, distinguished by coat type / colour, these have been split into 4 separate breeds in most other countries but afaik are still considered one breed in their country of origin.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17520676743458940905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12035726968017876752016-10-16T11:21:39.556+01:002016-10-16T11:21:39.556+01:00Yes and as far as I know it's directly linked ...Yes and as far as I know it's directly linked to the injuries they sustain by the type of hyper exertion demanded from them from an early age? FASA, Fracture-Associated bone Sarcomas. With all the injuries associated with racing it makes sense they are more vulnerable to diseases like this.<br /><br />Grey hound racing is infamously concerned with winning the race not the dogs welfare. If a dog doesn't live much past its short hard racing career is just one less mouth to feed. These sarcomas weren't much in evidence as greyhounds typically didn't live much past the end of their racing careers. Mostly being destroyed and disposed of before these conditions ever even became apparent and an expensive issue. <br /><br />However as more and more light has been focused on the heinous practise and waste of animal life in the greyhound (and indeed horse) racing industry so many more greyhounds are finding themselves living in pet homes by way of retirement. It's here where these bone sarcomas are being seen as a breed issue. This is not entirely correct, though. However If this extends and to what extent to dogs bred from racing stock who have also never seen a race track or not Im not entirely sure. Im not talking about show greyhounds here, these I wouldn't be at all surprised if they do suffer from at least some breeding related problems or other.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-86223182850078529292016-10-16T04:51:46.497+01:002016-10-16T04:51:46.497+01:00Don't they (racing greyhounds) have issues wit...Don't they (racing greyhounds) have issues with bone cancer?Joe GarPhttps://en.gravatar.com/joegarpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-52308766401051349342016-09-08T04:22:23.629+01:002016-09-08T04:22:23.629+01:00That comment makes you appear to be indisputably t...That comment makes you appear to be indisputably tiresome, predictably arrogant, glaringly inconsiderate, and an absolute bore. Stop insulting people for expressing rage and grief in a way that doesn't best please your delicate sensibilities. Or colloquially, fuck off.CJameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13252735583719181618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-14591193470691064692016-09-05T18:45:42.206+01:002016-09-05T18:45:42.206+01:00Working breeders are typically far more "resp...Working breeders are typically far more "responsible" then show breeders - if you want an example look at a working GSD vs a show GSD. The working type are certainly more healthy. Also look at breeds that have never joined the show world and the KC (there are several Spanish herding breeds in this category) - the farmers outcross as they see fit, in order to add positive attributes and behaviours that would make a better herding dog. They don't care about purity - just working ability.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17520676743458940905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-78273166295108014352016-09-05T18:18:13.846+01:002016-09-05T18:18:13.846+01:00My Faybee Baby was not a flatcoat, but she also lo...My Faybee Baby was not a flatcoat, but she also lost her life to cancer. Breeders control the genetics of any particular breed and the general public are the ones who suffer the most. Is is not about time that breeders bred for the health of the dogs they are putting in the world. I'm not saying it is easy, juggling genetics, but let's face it breeders earn enough money form each pup to put a little research into the breeding.Vickyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02250155929761852409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-64985038941121589862016-09-05T03:43:15.328+01:002016-09-05T03:43:15.328+01:00I met an adorable flatcoat in India week ago at a ...I met an adorable flatcoat in India week ago at a hotel I visited, a very lucky flatcoat, he was eight and alive. It was high monsoon season so there were no guests around and his owner a friend of mine from the UK had gone home so the dog took to me for the few days I was there. <br /><br />First thing I realised having a pack of intense unruly JRT jocks at home who don't know the meaning of personal space was just how unbelievably lovely and gentle and soft he was. <br /><br />Absolutely charming dog. He would be lying smartly by my door every morning when I woke, tail wagging ready for his walk. He took me all over the tea estate getting me back just in time for breakfast and the morning paper which he would fetch from the kitchen and proudly present to me. If he heard a strange noise in the evening he would grumble looking up at me in the eyes, a soft pat and he would close his eyes again. Usually just the high pitched eerie bark of a deer. <br /><br />It felt like we had been together for years, him laying at my feet contentedly as I sprawled in one of the old antique Morris chairs on the wide veranda of the bungalow reading a book. <br /><br />We were both rather sad when I had to leave, he sat at the end of the staff all sweetly lined up to wave us off staring at the car half expecting that I might change my mind.<br /><br />When I looked back he was chasing a ball the cook had thrown down the drive. So that was Ok then.<br /><br />The exception that proves the rule sadly. Yes there are exceptions. But think how much nicer it would be if they weren't the exceptions but the rule. Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-75155970718620874242016-09-03T22:41:43.391+01:002016-09-03T22:41:43.391+01:00Why not just buy a Flatcoat mixed with something e...Why not just buy a Flatcoat mixed with something else rather than buying a Flatcoat? I'm sure there are people breeding Flatcoat/Irish Setter crosses or Flatcoat/Goldens or Flatcoat/Hovawart, etc... etc...<br /><br />Fixing the breed requires wide scale cooperation - assuring that you don't suffer from a dog that dies before 8 is a lot easier and SHOULD be done. <br /><br />I had a friend who had a Flatcoat - born in 1983 which lived until - get this - 1999. Has their longevity been bad for very long or has it plummeted in the last 15 years or so?rfortunatohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15839706057961709099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-67627068714358720232016-09-03T05:21:38.046+01:002016-09-03T05:21:38.046+01:00Putting it politely, yes, they're full of iron...Putting it politely, yes, they're full of irony. <br /><br />"Farmers" need working dogs so breed like to like, if it's unhealthy they scrap it without much emotional baggage, the progeny will be useless to them end of story. This makes them "responsible" breeders of course. Even if no pedigrees are involved. They actively keep working blood and search it out to outcross to, this is their idea of improvement. They're also more likely to look at other breeds that have traditionally played a part in their working dogs and use them. Happily returning to cross breeds that have traditionally played a part, so the types generally remain genetically vigourous. <br /><br />Sadly this is up until they no longer have a function, then the showing fraternity take over, the last nail in the coffin "rescuing" them into oblivion with so called "responsible" breeding. Claiming to breed the genuine article.<br /><br />At the end of the day (when the sun goes down) farmers, working breeders want a functional healthy working dog not a ribbon winning freak exaggeration with monstrous health problems.<br /><br />Pet owners absolutely want the same in pedigree dogs, any dogs. <br /><br />So called "responsible" show breeders are mostly working within a rigid genetic time bomb. Trying this trying that, health testing, DNA testing, censuses, research blah blah. Of course none of it works, all of it only shows up what they really cannot admit, really don't want to hear, and to borrow a phrase that their breed is completely "fucked" because of how they've been breeding it.<br /><br />The pedigree paradigm, versus the working one. Most definitely it's almost exclusively the later that are the responsible breeders.<br /><br />So many pedigree dogs fall into the flatcoat "untouchable group" that to my mind, beyond a tiny fraction it's simply pure ignorance that anyone in 2016 is still actively seeking out a show bred pedigreed dog at all. Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-52230228235786903402016-09-02T20:48:46.209+01:002016-09-02T20:48:46.209+01:00Can I just say that I'm tired of hand wringing...Can I just say that I'm tired of hand wringing and am doing something about this? There are ways to address the loss of genetic diversity and we should all just get on with it. Flat-coats should not die so young. I'm glad they are healthy until they do, because there are breeds that aren't and die that young too. If breed communities understood that different breeds are still related, then an outcross to a different but similar breed would not seem like much more than an outcross to a different line. This information has to be gotten across, because no one wants their dogs dying or suffering!! A dog is a dog is a dog. Natalie Tessierhttp://www.betterbred.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-90646744812000706462016-09-02T16:17:34.973+01:002016-09-02T16:17:34.973+01:00Get a dictionary. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida...Get a dictionary. -- Rod Russell, Orlando, Florida USAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-62060833039590422172016-09-02T04:35:03.911+01:002016-09-02T04:35:03.911+01:00It's absolutely sickening that people can'...It's absolutely sickening that people can't see the big picture with this. It's absolutely wrong that people will uphold completely arbitrary tradition at the expense of health and longevity. It is beyond time to trade in the badge of "purebred" for the badge of "health."Merriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12569399662021156149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-6729520586661900562016-09-02T02:59:14.646+01:002016-09-02T02:59:14.646+01:00The ego of their identity as elite breeders.
So c...The ego of their identity as elite breeders.<br /><br />So changing the identity of a K.C member to include people who breed dogs with out a pedigree, through constitutional changes, would mean the pedigree pure blood and adherence to pedigree standards, are not the mark of that identity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-44417465984130753502016-09-02T02:52:06.862+01:002016-09-02T02:52:06.862+01:00John 16:14
Closed stud books ON THEIR OWN are not...John 16:14<br /><br />Closed stud books ON THEIR OWN are not the cause of inbreeding. Combined with the sole purpose of predictability to a standard tho', can't lead to any thing else.<br /><br />There is no value in a dog with out a purpose. If your purpose is limited to predictability to a single environment and the standards it imposes, there is no other direction available.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-5754529932225138022016-09-02T02:37:35.997+01:002016-09-02T02:37:35.997+01:0013:33
Already done here too, with Dobermans.No DC...13:33<br /><br />Already done here too, with Dobermans.No DCM so far, or bloat,or joint problems or wobblers. <br />Having huge problems finding a suitable mate for my 3rd generation bitch, but well worth it if I can. If not, others have seen fit to continue their line . It has changed and raised the expectations of the people who have bought pups with many now refusing to buy any thing else.<br /><br /> The hard part is to find a mate that will live up to the expectations created when so few have any experience of the same. They have not been taught to recognize the same values, or the purpose they contribute to.<br /><br /><br /> But demonstrate value and people will seek it out, and promote it to others.<br /><br />It is the nature of environment to seek out and favor the values that can increase it.<br /> <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-28921878301475952422016-09-02T02:29:52.005+01:002016-09-02T02:29:52.005+01:00"Healthy until they die" sadly such an a..."Healthy until they die" sadly such an accurate description of so many flat-coats. Over a period of almost two decades we had two different flat-coats. The first died just before ten and the second before eight. Both wonderful dogs with the classic outgoing ever friendly personality and great versatility. Like many have mentioned I don't know that I could do it again, raising a puppy only to wonder when the dreaded "c" word will appear. There are breeders trying to do better within the framework of the various kennel clubs, but to often their emphasis is still on the show ring and its outcomes. We now have a golden retriever /Newf cross, who's still healthy and active at age ten and a little working cocker who keeps her from sleeping to much :) Having spent a considerable amount of time with working German Shepherds and hunting breeds, I've lost all faith in the show rings ability to do anything more than promote extremes. Most need to look back 100 years to see the original type and function these breeds once had. <br /><br />Keep up the excellent work with your blog. Hopefully over time a percentage of the breeders will prioritize, health, longevity, ability and a functional conformation over show ring resultsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-36539182991088865682016-09-02T00:14:10.061+01:002016-09-02T00:14:10.061+01:00Wishful thinking . . . but I think it would be hel...Wishful thinking . . . but I think it would be helpful to re-unite the black and gold (flatties and goldies) into one breed. I hate to think what Labradors would be like if the bred had been split by color.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-48091923589457845142016-09-01T18:24:42.038+01:002016-09-01T18:24:42.038+01:00Well, the show ring wont disappear, and that favou...Well, the show ring wont disappear, and that favours dogs which have matched appearances (making inbreeding and linebreeding favorable), and promotes popular sires.<br /><br />With working dogs, the only way to improve the dogs is to have high Heritability. By inbreeding excessively, you will quickly be unable to improve the dogs, so adding unique blood helps. <br /><br />Working dogs are usually the most healthy dogs, despite the fact the average working dog owner, such as a farmer, is certainly not a responsible breeder. Which is the irony that breeds which have "responsible breeders" often have worse health than dogs that have not been responsibly bred.<br /><br />Or responsible breeders exist because of the problems inbreeding has caused. <br />Theres also a lot of denial to the problems caused by inbreeding for the breed.<br /><br />Inbreeding can make a breed worse, but without outcrossing to other breeds, it wont get better. Sunny Dogshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00271390576235377292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-14052618281272045452016-09-01T17:40:03.844+01:002016-09-01T17:40:03.844+01:00Much love to Gina and Jemima.xxMuch love to Gina and Jemima.xxAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00902172020810444755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-7484387846703099382016-09-01T17:35:10.901+01:002016-09-01T17:35:10.901+01:00Looking at the previous comments and in particular...Looking at the previous comments and in particular Sunny Dogs I couldn't agree more in particular with her statement 'if the breed club makes the decision of outside dogs that could help improve the breed, they would me more likely to accept the decision, but the Kennel Club would have to enforce it. There's just one BIG PROBLEM with this and that is if the breed clubs did condescend to, and agreed to using outside dogs it would mean that the breed clubs would be admitting to the fact that they and their members have breeding incorrectly for years. Then there is the problem of the KC enforcing it. Again it would mean that the KC would be admitting that they have been allowing poor breeding for years. The problem? It's EGO. Basically all the Championship Show judges have come through an indoctrination and they would now not have the 'face' to admit to have been wrong for years. Why do you think there has been such a stink amongst all the so called 'responsible breeders' - OMG - someone like Jemima has actually shown them up for what they are - totally clueless about the science behind the breeding. In most cases with the 'responsible breeders' it's not so much the money they are making (and I know some of the puppies are extortionate), it's more about the EGO and when that happens everything else around these egotistical people goes to hell.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10647186541248238222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-25907849386785459442016-09-01T16:14:11.936+01:002016-09-01T16:14:11.936+01:00I hasten to point out that closed stud books are n...I hasten to point out that closed stud books are not the cause of excessive inbreeding, and closed stud books don't inexorably lead to low genetic diversity. Racing and coursing Greyhound registries have closed stud books, and yet the racing and coursing segments of the breed, which make up the vast majority of Greyhounds, have very good genetic diversity. On the other hand, the show-bred Greyhounds, registered in the stud books of various kennel clubs, have much lower, often dangerously low, genetic diversity. A real life example of the difference in results between breeding for performance excellence and breeding for something else. <br /> It is all down to the breeder community. So perhaps your statement should be revised to "Eff the breeders."Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11084647514639212882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-78518013715980915722016-09-01T16:06:03.300+01:002016-09-01T16:06:03.300+01:00Already done. I've kissed kennel clubs and &qu...Already done. I've kissed kennel clubs and "papers" goodbye without looking back. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-16445099217284666252016-09-01T15:21:28.183+01:002016-09-01T15:21:28.183+01:00Indeed. Only way I could find of expressing my ang...Indeed. Only way I could find of expressing my anger. Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.com