tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post8055587714311560788..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: So, what do you get if...Jemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-43070410184817986902021-01-05T12:54:00.787+00:002021-01-05T12:54:00.787+00:00I'd say that health and vitality is more impor...I'd say that health and vitality is more important than looks. Only show people care about size of spots, color of eyes etc … most people want a healthy, social, long living pet johan1https://www.blogger.com/profile/01715938913124533975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-36773985426763027122021-01-05T12:52:37.964+00:002021-01-05T12:52:37.964+00:00Off course this is great but let's not forget ...Off course this is great but let's not forget that Schnauzers and Pinschers were the same breed until 100 years ago so it's not surprising it went so fast/well. About the Affenpinscher : an outcross to miniature pinscher or miniature schnauzer would probably be a good idea. johan1https://www.blogger.com/profile/01715938913124533975noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-80847259940408480172017-09-15T01:51:31.495+01:002017-09-15T01:51:31.495+01:00I know we have had a discussion to do something li...I know we have had a discussion to do something like this with the affenpinschers. Affenpinschers are very small in numbers all over the world so it may still be a possibility to enlarge the genetic diversity. At least we have to continue the work worldwide to do the best to make this wonderful breed as strong as possible. ❤Helena Norling, helenanorling1@hotmail.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-33231022796531288552014-04-17T05:33:18.744+01:002014-04-17T05:33:18.744+01:00Outcrossing is something cat breeders have been do...Outcrossing is something cat breeders have been doing for many years, I breed two "experimental" breeds for the past 14 years......its a necessary thing to keep the gene pool open and functioning well. I dont understand why there isnt more of it in the dog world. Miamber Burmilla, Burmese and Australian Bombayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18284192817790613106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31290260644996768002014-04-14T12:47:11.223+01:002014-04-14T12:47:11.223+01:00We have had SKK crossing projects in Sweden too, i...We have had SKK crossing projects in Sweden too, in 2001 clumber/ working cocker, and hunting dogs, schiller hound have been crossed with Luzerner Hound.Lenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16502181860180691008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41017027189726614042014-03-05T16:47:01.664+00:002014-03-05T16:47:01.664+00:00Fran (and all!) , that is something I am trying to...Fran (and all!) , that is something I am trying to help, though sometimes I despair of progress. I run a FB Canine Genetics groups, which has both groups in it (geneticists and breeders, and some other interested parties) and which promotes knowledge of canine genetics and the need for genetic diversity. We have some lively discussions! And although I do not allow advertisements for litters or dogs on the list, I would consider allowing some kind of post regarding upcoming litters of outcross projects (let me know about it so I can state this is an exception, and why) , and would certainly welcome updates on any and all outcross projects. And- I would be interested in a pup from an outcross project, willing to keep an intact male and not breed him, or let him be bred, as the project needs- I agree with Liisa that making decisions on what dogs to breed at 7-8 weeks is not the wisest strategy!<br />Susan Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17432674659536459928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-56991551544963724422013-01-19T14:57:24.696+00:002013-01-19T14:57:24.696+00:00I wish this project was better known by breeders i...I wish this project was better known by breeders in the UK, because even those breeders who genuinely care about the health and welfare of their breed, are resistant to any kind of outcross because they're concerned about future problems cropping up. They do not believe that, by doing an outcross, they will be furthering their line, they think they will ruin it. They want to improve the conformation of their dog with each generation and they cannot see how an outcross will allow them to do this. <br /><br />There seems to be a chasm between the geneticists and breeders, with neither of them being able to understand the other's concerns. Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-31829292692565288702012-11-12T13:11:39.988+00:002012-11-12T13:11:39.988+00:00^ Do you also disagree with breeding purebreds, wh...^ Do you also disagree with breeding purebreds, when so many dogs need homes? These crosses are registered as purebreds. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12515319928035392242012-10-28T18:23:57.716+00:002012-10-28T18:23:57.716+00:00I don't agree with breeding crosses when so ma...I don't agree with breeding crosses when so many dogs need homes. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-52006923710894544182012-09-24T14:37:09.534+01:002012-09-24T14:37:09.534+01:00I imagine he meant that rather than keep vaccinati...I imagine he meant that rather than keep vaccinating every year, vaccinate once and then titre test thereafter. Many of the reactions to vaccination come from annual boosters. Professor Ronald D. Schultz has been advocating titre testing for nearly a decade. http://www.news.wisc.edu/8413Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-84257166926542208982012-09-24T13:31:54.930+01:002012-09-24T13:31:54.930+01:00I just wanted to comment, that from the Barbet x P...I just wanted to comment, that from the Barbet x Pont-Audemer Spaniel -cross (puppies registered as Barbets), one of the F1-bitches was recently BOB and received a Certificate:<br /><br />http://www.nuutuksen.net/omatkoirat/valkan-koe--ja-nayttelytuloksetAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76844665325066022032012-04-09T02:17:38.896+01:002012-04-09T02:17:38.896+01:00I think these are marvelous projects. And I hope m...I think these are marvelous projects. And I hope more of the sort will come along. So many breeds with so many problems that (in this specific form) occur only within this breed. <br />Pure bred dogs should be able to live a healthy, uncomplicated, long life... And if being pure bred doesn't guarantee that, then, maybe, deviating from the pure bred stance to outcrossings towards other breeds is a possible answer. <br />I, personally, can't think of many breeds we have today who don't originate from very few original dogs and by refining the breed more and more diversity is lost. <br />As a geneticists said to me once: "once diversity is lost you cannot regain it by outcrossing within an inbred population". And in many breeds"popular sire syndrom" is an issue still...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-27035648935808276682011-09-12T17:06:58.620+01:002011-09-12T17:06:58.620+01:00Dave, agree with you. killing diseases are a thing...Dave, agree with you. killing diseases are a thing of the past, to the point where some people now are more afraid of the vaccines.<br /> "Why not check if the dogs have a titre..." Why indeed? A titre means a a measured number of antibodies against the naturally occurring infectious agent, in this case one which in the last large epidemic here killed so many unvaccinated dogs that old vets who worked back then still are close to tears trying to tell the story. There were dying dogs practically piled in the vet hospitals... and you know what, Bestuvall? Many died before they even had the time to build of that precious "titre" of yours, others died with lovely high titres. What good did it do them? And do you suppose that if a group of animals react very badly to an attenuated vaccine, they would prosper from direct exposure to the real thing, the live virus?<br />The only way to have a titre is to have been exposed to the agent. In a lethal disease, a highly contagious one too, Bestuvall´s suggestion is about as stupid as it gets.<br /><br />Bubonic plague showing up again? Bestuvall, check if you have a titre!Bodil Carlssonhttp://collievaenner.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-86543475362658226382011-09-11T09:27:51.478+01:002011-09-11T09:27:51.478+01:00It is very nice to see our crossbreeding project o...It is very nice to see our crossbreeding project on your blog, Jemima.<br /><br />I am one of the three breeders who made a proposal of crossbreeding Schnauzer and Pinscher in Finland. <br /><br />As you wrote "the outcross has been done because of concerns regarding genetic diversity and inbreeding". THAT is the point, NOT any other details like post-vaccine reactions or eye diseases how severe they ever may be; they only are symptoms of the problem, which is a catastrophically small gene pool worldwide. If such breed as Schnauzer had not been available we certainly should have used some other breeds of similar body constructions like Dobermann, German Shorthaired Pointer and Miniature Pinscher. I hope in other countries somebody will make some crossbreeding with such breeds to make the gene pool even wider. Actually in East Germany Dobermann was used once and progenies coming from that outcross have also been bought to Finland. <br /><br />The Retrieverman wrote about the Mountain-Cur and it seemed to be a very interesting option until I read about the character of the breed and got an impression they were furious and aggressive hunting dogs, not suitable as family pets. <br /><br />Pinschers on the contrary are mostly kept as urban or suburban family pets. They are warmth-loving and after the wild puppyhood mostly quite lazy dogs, who hate rainy or cold weather... And must do well with other pets and children. But as there certainly are somewhere some furious and harsh Pinschers in the world as well there can be some untypical Curs, which perhaps could be used in crossbreeding.<br /><br />During the decades of breeding dogs (German Shorthaired Pointer and Pinscher mostly) I have got an idea that one single point that would have done all the difference in the history of purebred dogs is the colour discrimantion. <br /><br />Have you ever thought how many tens of thousands of puppies have paid with their lives to be of "a wrong colour"? And how much wider gene pool the most breeds had if lots and lots of dogs had not been lost from breeding just because of the colour? If not all killed, at least not been used in breeding.<br /><br />An example: When it was decided to make Schnauzer and Pinscher to two different breeds somebody got the bright idea only to allow Schnauzers be solid black or pepper&salt. After some decades Pinschers followed the same path, banning a colour after colour until there only were two left, black&tan and solid red. I think that is criminal! <br /><br />The domestic dogs have tens and tens of beautiful colours, so why on earth to do things like that? It only is understandable if a colour brings severe skin problems or other diseases and then it is a must not to allow it, but those cases are very rare. <br /><br />The liver&tan or chocolate&tan colour was taken away of the Pinscher Standard as late as in the 70's because there had not been born puppies of that colour for many years. I am sure they killed those which were born because in Germany the Club allows most 6 puppies in a litter. Now there have been some liver&tans in Sweden and of course we bought two of them to Finland to start fighting for to get it back to the Standard! And why not ALL the original colours? <br /><br />I wonder if somebody sometimes could make some research over HOW many dogs have been "killed for the colour" and what influence only that has done to the purebred dogs' health status.<br /> <br />PS. Please note you can find information about the Dobermann outcross on the net by searching the Dobermann name Evi v.d. Edeltanne.Elisa Koivunennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-64915451576732203422011-09-09T19:08:35.670+01:002011-09-09T19:08:35.670+01:00I was so impressed with the phenotypic results of ...I was so impressed with the phenotypic results of this outcross experiment, I forwarded it to a few Scottish terriers breeders I know and know to be knowledgeable about the perils of inbreeding. I got back the type of responses I have come to expect. These responses were along these lines: Why would we want to introduce another breed's genetic problems, especially when the outcome is so uncertain? I am a genetics tyro and so often do not know how to answer this complaint. It seems so plain to me that the salvation of most breeds--including my own--lies in careful outcrossing or backcrossing. Now that there is visible evidence to counter the old argument that Scottie breeders don't want to produce undistinguished hairy black dogs, avoidance tactics have shifted. Can anyone reading here suggest some potentially fruitful line of argument to help breeders grasp such concepts as lethal equivalency? <br /><br />In recent years, much time and attention has been devoted to an attempt to track down the gene or genes responsible for cerebellar abiotrophy in Scotties. No results yet. However, the gene(s) responsible for the disorder in Am Staffs, another breed enrolled in the study, was(were) found very quickly. Obviously, CA in Am Staffs and CA in Scotties are genetically distinguishable. And yet, some believe that a hypothetical breeding of a Scottie with an Am Staff would increased incidence of the disease. How to counter such thinking?Lisa Paddocknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-85830905773306120012011-09-08T04:37:31.328+01:002011-09-08T04:37:31.328+01:00your blog really helped me to enhance my knowledge...your blog really helped me to enhance my knowledge.content is really good and i am happy to visit again.buy forzesthttp://www.raymeds.com/purchase/forzest.aspxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41207751263734793152011-08-30T19:46:35.792+01:002011-08-30T19:46:35.792+01:00I am on the health committee for the German Pinsch...I am on the health committee for the German Pinscher Club of America.......I can assure you we do have vaccine reactions here...andin fact the information is on our clubs website. <br /><br />And the comment was to use dogs with generations of dogs with no cataracts.....nowhere can we find GENERATIONS of HC clear dogs.....if it seems that way.....its from breeders who do not test....or only test young dogs.....and NOT testing does not mean they are clear :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-59709197083138293452011-08-30T07:58:18.389+01:002011-08-30T07:58:18.389+01:00Knotty Dogs - apologies...I had missed your posts ...Knotty Dogs - apologies...I had missed your posts which I have now retrospecitively published.<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-19951072483315225332011-08-30T07:15:41.128+01:002011-08-30T07:15:41.128+01:00As someone who has had a ferret...
"As for t...As someone who has had a ferret...<br /><br />"As for the vaccine problem.. why not use dogs of the same breed who are from lines that do not have the problem.. The gene pool may be small in Finland.. but it is wide elsewhere..at least wide enough that "vaccinoses" is not mentioned as problem in the American German Pinscher Club..Why not just forgo the distemper shots on this breed and use a titer to determine if the dog has built up a resistance naturally to distemper? If they have.. well them problem solved.. if not then .. well on to the outcross. although it seems a bit extreme..when the reactions are varied and range from minor and transient to more serious in a very few cases"<br /><br />Are you insane? I have seen ferrets not vaccinated for canine distemper. They have adverse reactions to the live virus too, but the risk of that far outweighs the sweeping effect of canine distemper.<br /><br />Maybe you want your dog flopping around on the floor in convulsion, but I don't want mine to be that way.<br /><br />Geez, it seems like the anti-vaccine crowds are part of a generation where the symptoms of the diseases are seldom seen because they were so well-managed, people forgot those EXISTED.Davehttp://littleheelers.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-86111833045140804712011-08-30T06:40:33.960+01:002011-08-30T06:40:33.960+01:00Dogs has to be vaccinated with a certain program i...Dogs has to be vaccinated with a certain program if you want to show or trial. And it is an autoimmune problem if reactions are strong or even lethal. And autoimmune problems should be taken seriously in every breed.<br /><br />I find it interesting that people have so strong feelings about crossing the breeds. If we go back in time a century or so, so we find that mixing breeds was more than common way to improve stock. And looking in to the histories of the breeds tells us that every breed comes from a mixed origin. I feel that it will be the future to our breeds also. And also beeing a Finn I can tell you that our "kennel world climate" is at the moment very reformist so I think there is more to come!Ulla Ruistolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03497559704204783744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-72650470452736749052011-08-30T06:35:07.360+01:002011-08-30T06:35:07.360+01:00bestuvall said...
"so is there a reason you ...bestuvall said...<br /><br />"so is there a reason you do not use titers instead of injections?"<br /><br />Probably because Distemper is a terrible disease that can cause lifelong impairment even in recovered dogs? And maybe the breeders don't feel that not vaccinating and just waiting to see whether the dog gets sick or develops a titer from exposure to wild virus or develops antibodies from shed vaccinal virus is 'better' than vaccinating and watching for reactions? <br /><br />Pirjo Porenne, I don't know if the Recombitek dna vaccine for Distemper is available to you over there. If it is, has it been tested with German Pinschers to see if you get the same reactions as with the conventional modified live vaccines?Jesshttp://desertwindhounds.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-58092075311069833722011-08-30T06:23:48.887+01:002011-08-30T06:23:48.887+01:00Jemima,
I've emailed you twice now on an unr...Jemima, <br /><br />I've emailed you twice now on an unrelated topic. Are you getting my emails?<br /><br />Thanks.Knotty Dogshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09439432166825776440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-61866348877044373802011-08-30T02:20:47.744+01:002011-08-30T02:20:47.744+01:00Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought that titers onl...Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought that titers only show if an already vaccinated dog still had some evidence of immunity? SO, I'm not sure how that would fix a breed of dogs demonstrating increased sensitivity to vaccination.<br /><br />And really, while a titer is a good way to ensure a sensitive dog shows immunity without another vaccination, I think better idea is to breed dogs with robust enough immune systems that they can handle a standard vaccination.Beth F.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-62783117623840421122011-08-29T23:29:14.982+01:002011-08-29T23:29:14.982+01:00so is there a reason you do not use titers instead...so is there a reason you do not use titers instead of injections?bestuvallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03034419139639335716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-19804914548445385892011-08-29T08:14:47.382+01:002011-08-29T08:14:47.382+01:00bestuvall, a comment: Even if the American German...bestuvall, a comment: Even if the American German Pinscher Club does not mention post-vaccine reactions it does not mean that there aren't any. We happen to know that that problem concerns the whole GP population world-wide. The gene pool of GP ist VERY small everywhere, not only in Finland. The breed was re-constructed in Germany after the Wold War 2, based on two pinschers, who had remained alive after the war as well as on three over-size miniature pinschers. The GP population in America is based on the old European lines (french, german, dutch and so on), thus having exactly the same problems as we here in Europe. As to the post-vaccine reactions for the outcross pinschers, those - if any - have indeed been considerably slight and of very short duration compared with the most cases of so-called pure pinschers. Consequently, in this regard I suppose the outcross has helped at least a little to restrict the disease, generally regarded as an auto-immune problem.<br /><br />I am not any scientist but I have listened to many experts and come to the conclusion that the outcross would be the only way to try and effect some improvement in regard to the state of health of GP. My only aim has been to DO in practice at least something for the good of the breed I love. If that fails I can only say I have at least done my best.Pirjo Porennenoreply@blogger.com