tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post6869493662428373885..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: BREAKING NEWS: a quarter of UK dog breeds so inbred they could face extinctionJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-72217885655704448012015-10-08T04:09:34.703+01:002015-10-08T04:09:34.703+01:00I meant to add that the Borzoi could be in less tr...I meant to add that the Borzoi could be in less trouble due to the fact that it has a very very broad ancestor base. Different people were doing very different things with a very large numbers of dogs in the breeding of working Borzoi for a very very long time before they reached the West and became a show number. They also had very big litter sizes generally. Colour wasn't and still isn't a criteria that already alone would make for a gene pool many times healthier than most breeds Im sure.....as a whole Im sure they are genetically speaking better off. <br /><br />Certainly certain show lines that might have dominated show rings in some countries due to strict colour preference selection like white did for awhile in America for example are probably less well off. Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-90711335850044879692015-10-08T03:50:40.595+01:002015-10-08T03:50:40.595+01:00That also beggars belief. With a perfectly good ge...That also beggars belief. With a perfectly good gene pool of working dogs and outcrosses available and even registered showing breeders will rather continue on using the dangerously inbred show winning crap.<br /><br />It's heartening to read that there is a population of genetically sound working dogs, though. <br /><br />This is very much more than can be said for many breeds including many working breeds in the KC. That's good enough for me. It doesn't really matter what the kennel club thinks or the spin it puts on its own financed research, or how show breeders breed or their affiliated shows and judges go about their business in awarding dogs.<br /><br />With some kind of irony involved the breed club in England got it right then? There is nothing to worry about even if their own dogs all drop down dead tomorrow from inherited diseases.<br /><br />Those looking for a red and white need to know the best place to look, and of course the general public deserve to know the truth of the matter concerning the show dogs and what pedigree Champion really stands for.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-14619033579806531112015-10-02T16:02:04.844+01:002015-10-02T16:02:04.844+01:00Agree, though I'd say WTF. To inbreed is to o...Agree, though I'd say WTF. To inbreed is to off-balance the genetics.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-6698505144117455992015-09-30T09:53:51.472+01:002015-09-30T09:53:51.472+01:00WTAF is a "balance between selective breeding...WTAF is a "balance between selective breeding and inbreeding?"<br /><br />I do not think it means what they think it means.<br /><br />I give up.Heather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-45622342643537484662015-09-28T23:17:28.825+01:002015-09-28T23:17:28.825+01:00Not related to the subject, but found pictures of ...Not related to the subject, but found pictures of pugs. http://dduane.tumblr.com/post/96670053607/foxinu-perfectdogs-retro-pugs-this-is-a<br /><br />Made me happy.<br /><br />-TiiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-57269372231964920402015-09-25T05:19:47.717+01:002015-09-25T05:19:47.717+01:00Ooops the very word Borzoi is going to get me lost...Ooops the very word Borzoi is going to get me lost in two days solid internet browsing....bye bye weekend.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-5915738551385078192015-09-24T22:23:11.694+01:002015-09-24T22:23:11.694+01:00I must admit Jennifer that I was looking at the gr...I must admit Jennifer that I was looking at the graph and found it hard to believe the effective breed population of several of them. I find it hard to believe with such a low registry of pups each year that the Dandie Dinmont terrier also looking at ratio of breeding bitches to stud dogs has an effective population of 196.6.<br />Something is seriously not adding up here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-40995698809822317062015-09-24T22:16:35.135+01:002015-09-24T22:16:35.135+01:00I have now had time to read the report , the singl...I have now had time to read the report , the single breed analyses, and all the other additional papers, also read read Carol Beuchat's critique . When I first saw the figure for my breed , Irish Red and White Setters, which is 39, I was surprised as I had expected it to be lower, probably nearer to 20. Certainly I hadn't expected it to be higher than either Irish Setters or English Setters. Three years ago the breed was reported to have an EPS of only 28, so how within a closed registry could it have gone up? We are numerically the smallest setter breed, with registrations that have fallen to below 100 in some recent years . So I started to look at the data used in calculating this figure. And there are three things that could have skewed the figure<br />1. As other people have commented, there are imported dogs where only three generations are recorded. Which may conceal the fact that they go back to the same UK dogs and founders.<br />2. In IRWS, we have some outcross dogs registered in the UK since 2012, one imported F1 dog, and two more outcross litters totalling 27 puppies with a COI of only 1.7%. As they have not yet been widely accepted by the show breeders as part of their gene pool, they form something of a small sub gene pool<br />3. There are a substantial number of field trial dogs from Ireland who are registered in the UK so that they can run in field trials in Northern Ireland and the mainland UK, each of these is recorded in the KC database with a 3 generation pedigree of almost entirely other Irish FT dogs. These dogs form a de facto separate gene pool from the show bred IRWS in the UK, whose owners wouldn't dream of using an Irish working dog in their breeding<br />So these three factors all contribute to skewing the EPS upwards, enabling the breed club down England to conclude with some satisfaction, but completely mistakenly, that the trend is towards greater genetic diversity. and there is nothing to worry about<br />Of course if they were to import some completely unrelated dogs (which don't exist), or if they were willing to use outcross dogs or working and field trial dogs in their breeding, things might really improve. But as long as they continue to breed within a narrow circle of winning show dogs who are all related anyway, things are only going to get worse not better. But it would be hard to understand that from the figures presented by the KC. Poor use of data, with no understanding of what the data really shows, will give some very strange results!dalriachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-92189433619629580752015-09-24T17:39:39.863+01:002015-09-24T17:39:39.863+01:00Hi PipedreamFarm, my point is that there should be...Hi PipedreamFarm, my point is that there should be no consideration to breeding puppies to enable one to show. One cannot offset profit against the cost of showing, feeding, transportation, entry fees. It is a hobby. Other hobbyists do not engage in a hobby expecting to make money from that hobby. The figures you show of $50k/$100k is astonishing and I don't think exhibitors in UK would have that outgoing, probably because we are able to drive to venues whereby USA fly throughout the Americas and use professional handlers which probably does add up considerably. But take Irish Setters for e.g. average 8 pups/litter, average cost of each puppy £800, I think that totals £6,400, a stud dog fee would be the cost of a puppy, or pick of litter either one or two pups d and b. So, a breeder one litter pa and owns a stud dog say used quarterly equals £6,400 plus £3,200 totals £9,600 untaxed income. So if we give consideration to breeding to cover costs I consider that to be running a business, incoming offset against outgoings. It would have to be a very honest and honourable breeder who declares unearned, capital gain. However, if they realised that they should declare the income to the Inland Revenue and be taxed they will be very reluctant to declare because the Inland Revenue will then start to ask questions. In the UK I believe that the I.R. can retrieve undeclared income for a back period of 7 years, however, it may be more. And once the system came into play believe me these breeders would drop out. Whilst I was showing there were people employed by the NHS who took "sickies" (days off paid), there were people claiming invalidity pay - even to the point of being given a car! an estate! If they could exercise, groom, drive 100s of miles, and show dogs then they should not have been claiming invalidity benefits, it's a very physical past time, or should be. So traceability would start KC, Inland Revenue, Social Services, and people brought to count. Ironically the "invalids" were having 3 or 4 litters p.a. and if that isn't hard work I don't know what is - so all round the tax system was (probably still is for all I know) being abused to the detriment of the legitimate tax payer. We were paying to support the scammers, they were selling large number of puppies comparative to that times costs tax free. Taxation will slow down dog breeding, no question about it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03690236990556596997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-12844812632916356632015-09-24T15:14:27.367+01:002015-09-24T15:14:27.367+01:00I don't know about the UK, but here in the US ...I don't know about the UK, but here in the US you are taxed on income from puppy sales if you also claim the expenses from showing & breeding. Taxing the income will not produce your desired outcome (stopping/slowing the breeding).<br /><br />You want them to stop breeding, teach pet buyers that these dogs are not as healthy or superior as the KC claims. If they are not selling pups soon their kennels will be full and they will stop breeding.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-10354586997226854392015-09-24T12:13:58.688+01:002015-09-24T12:13:58.688+01:00Don't celebrate too soon. The data aren't...Don't celebrate too soon. The data aren't worth much. Imports are treated as totally unrelated in the UK database. I'd guess there are a lot of imports among the registered borzoi in the UK. I'll bet the breeds on the critical list are dominated by domestics . . . hence the problem shows.<br />The poodle study JH covered a few weeks ago did very thorough statistical work. They found that the populations in different coungries had a lot of genetic mixing . . . enough so that in most cases, imports do not offer a solution to the problems of narrowed gene pools.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-3423983115316783152015-09-23T15:08:41.230+01:002015-09-23T15:08:41.230+01:00And if one doesn't have disposable capital to ...And if one doesn't have disposable capital to be able to back that expenditure without having to breed uneccesarily then they should not be showing dogs because they cannot afford it. It is a circle, it is elitist, the people winning, are the people breeding, results in disposable untaxed income, that results in being able to show, who are the people breeding.... and so it goes on and on. They make a model that wins, there is no competition apart from a handful of likewise people and they burn out, and all to win some imagined glory in a small pond of filthy water, contaminated by greed and glory. I can't laugh about the nonsense of it all because I would throw up first.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03690236990556596997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-14519039502386825792015-09-23T14:58:48.366+01:002015-09-23T14:58:48.366+01:00Glad to see some attention to the problem of inbre...Glad to see some attention to the problem of inbreeding under closed registries.<br />However, the data behind these findings are so poor that I would be embarrassed to use it in publication. The standard poodle paper you commented on earlier this month clearly showed that (1) there has been so much importation of dogs that different national or continental populations of the same breed cannot be considered genetically distinct; (2) inbreeding resulting from a bottleneck back ~1950 can do severe damage to the immune systems of a breed. These data all assume imports are unrelated, and none go back far enough to get meaningful COI's.<br /><br />I once tried to use UK stats to look at the COI's of the Labradors who won at Westminster. Surprise surprise. The imports, and dogs with an imported sire or dam look much better than the domestics. TOTALLY MEANINGLESS!!!<br /><br />Does anyone really believe, as shown on the big graph, that the Borzoi has the largest effective population size of any breed in the UK?<br /><br />The kennel clubs are forever saying that their business is managing pedigrees. I wish they would do a better job. Get the whole sheebang digitized and linked internationally so that meaningful analysis of pedigrees is possible (without the excruciating process that the Standard Poodle Project went through).Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-56007285317545946322015-09-23T11:36:37.188+01:002015-09-23T11:36:37.188+01:00It didn't take long to find some info on the c...It didn't take long to find some info on the cost of showing to the top level in the USA.<br /><br />"To prepare, primp and promote a dog that can compete with the beautiful canines that strutted their stuff this week at the 2015 Westminster Dog Show can easily run you $50,000 to $100,000 a year."<br /><br />http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/17/pf/cost-of-a-dog-westiminster/PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-52669299297059776422015-09-23T11:33:04.254+01:002015-09-23T11:33:04.254+01:00"There are no hobbies that are self financing..."There are no hobbies that are self financing like dog showing..."<br /><br />I personally have not seen all the expenses and income from dog showing to REALLY know if it is profitable. Have you????<br /><br />I know in my venue one does not make a profit on breeding pups or "showing"; there is income (fair since of all the effort that goes into proving a working dog prior to breeding plus the appropriate testing prior to selection of mates).<br /><br />As before, no one is forcing people to buy pups from these types of breeders. They do so because they have the illusion (since they didn't do any research) that papered pups from "champion" lines are better than other dogs. PDE is spreading the word just how much of an illusion this is.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-83978852051532065582015-09-22T20:27:28.248+01:002015-09-22T20:27:28.248+01:00And why the KC have to tie up with the Inland Reve...And why the KC have to tie up with the Inland Revenue and make these breeders declare their capital gain, because as soon as the breeders cannot rake in untaxed monies the breeding of dogs will slow down hugely. As far as I am concerned so be it. They've taken a crop to feed their waiting list, to offset their outgoings they need incomings that is running a business in my book. There are no hobbies that are self financing like dog showing, the breeders think that they have a right to breed indefinitely to pay for their interest in dogs. Anglers, Painters, Archery. Embroiders, whatever don't expect income from that interest in order that they continue to pursue that interest. Dog Showers do and therein lies the problem in the main.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03690236990556596997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-74784495491961845702015-09-22T20:15:54.942+01:002015-09-22T20:15:54.942+01:00Perhaps the KC have a responsibility to send the i...Perhaps the KC have a responsibility to send the information per breed to each main breed club, and that breed club has a responsibility to send it to regional clubs. Proof that this has been done would be compulsory and posted in say the KC Gazette or online or in the dog papers. The KC could print it off and ensure that at every champ show per day per breed that it is included in the catalogue. I also think the KC have to extrapolate the information they have about the breeders who are overbreeding a bloodline and advise them that they will only accept registration of a limited number of puppies per sire. It will need DNA data to be compulsory for each dog, together with the microchip number, to eliminate as much of an opportunity to cheat. We know that there are "stand in studs and dams" either to keep the animal in peak condition for showing whilst "only recently having had a litter" or because the dogs are barren but a close relative has been retained to cover this probability. There is so much money involved in dog breeding these days people become hungry for more and become blind to any breed issues because it will affect their income and kudos in the breed. Also, of course, there is a position taken by these breeders whereby they can tell buyers of their puppies that their bloodline is healthy, good, reliable because if they haven't read the information, talked to anyone about the information, told anyone about the information, then they think that they are exonerated from a "sudden and unexpected" event. However, the case of Sam the Irish Setter in Holland which the owner of Sam won whereby the owner denied strongly that the condition that killed Sam had never happened before and it was proven to be untrue. So breeders beware because puppy buyers will become more savvy. It is all a very sad state of affairs for dogs that there are people who will exploit them to destruction. In the 60, 70 and 80s we were in the main ignorant, there were very many more of the "old school" breeders who were determined that "it was ever thus and things should not change" and thus wielded a lot of influence on how a breed could progress, or not, at that time. But those days have passed, we do now know the havoc we have created, and the KC has to act to protect the dogs and their own credibility.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03690236990556596997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-83608267128109353842015-09-22T19:31:26.508+01:002015-09-22T19:31:26.508+01:00Nobody is blameless for the current state of these...Nobody is blameless for the current state of these breeds: breeders, KC, or buyers.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-80359027803774776812015-09-22T18:52:26.493+01:002015-09-22T18:52:26.493+01:00There are two willing parties involved in a puppy ...There are two willing parties involved in a puppy purchase; breeders producing generation after generation with decreasing genetic diversity and buyers lining up to buy these highly inbred dogs and all the while the kennel clubs are collecting money from both groups (breeders in the show ring and buyers of the pups).<br /><br />If breeders had no waiting list of buyers they would not breed as often. If buyers would take the time to educate themselves on the issues in their breed of choice they could make better choices for their future pup and their breed as a whole. This level of effort and education by buyers would make them better owners in the future.<br /><br />A foole & his money, <br />be soone at debate: <br />which after with sorow, <br />repents him to late.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-63203839176037062522015-09-22T18:41:15.060+01:002015-09-22T18:41:15.060+01:00As a borzoi person, that graph has me celebrating!...As a borzoi person, that graph has me celebrating! Woohoo!Ashley Siemonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04683056334073245903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-35140578144751587432015-09-22T18:25:44.927+01:002015-09-22T18:25:44.927+01:00You know what they say Jemima, Bullshit baffles br...You know what they say Jemima, Bullshit baffles brains!!Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10647186541248238222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-5549502293845361382015-09-22T17:06:33.105+01:002015-09-22T17:06:33.105+01:00I would be interested to hear what the reaction to...I would be interested to hear what the reaction to this report has been in different breeds, particularly the more vulnerable breeds. In my breed , Irish Red and White Setters, it has been difficult to get much reaction. I have posted links to the main report, the breed specific analysis, and the additional pages like the infographics (which are well done, simple and easy to understand). But it looks like few people in the breed are interested in in reading even the easier pages, and even fewer in commenting. I have looked on internet groups for other vulnerable breeds, and in most the report hasn't even been mentioned. How does one raise awareness of the issues and get some discussion going? dalriachnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-22520332049754744002015-09-22T16:40:09.530+01:002015-09-22T16:40:09.530+01:00The figures tell one story...the loss of our beaut...The figures tell one story...the loss of our beautiful spaniel six weeks ago - only once stricken with illness did we find his CoI was nearly 15- is one that can't be calculated. A family that will never recover: what value does anyone put on that? geehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13266432414342015202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-90536991319385691122015-09-22T11:04:30.314+01:002015-09-22T11:04:30.314+01:00That would help some little bit, Ida, but I´m not ...That would help some little bit, Ida, but I´m not so sure it`s enough. Not beacuse the Smooth in the Uk (and elsewhere) is a small breed, but because these two are not really breeds, they are varieties, from common roots. In order to ascertain how much change in genetic make-up a planned, repetitive breeding of Rough to Smooth would achieve, you would need comparative DLA sequencing from a number of Roughs and a number of Smooths. Then, at least, you´d know where you are starting from. I would say there is a much better hope for the Roughs residing in the tens of thousands of unregistered, still working, dogs of Collie type and ancestry across Britain, Wales, and Ireland. And, to prevent expected outcry of purists - that is NOT "bringing in alien blood". It is what was done when the breed was formed, by people who were not seen then as mongrelizers and should not be seen as such now. Maybe that is what the next generation of educated, responsible Collie breeders will do?<br />Collievännerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13716521095613735630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-45330871648100765412015-09-22T10:39:33.870+01:002015-09-22T10:39:33.870+01:00People have to stop following these rules that dis...People have to stop following these rules that disallow people to make decisions based on empiricism and common sense!<br /><br />The KC is an organisation that is clearly biased in its interpretation of this paper and this is very bad news for dogs. Warped logic! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com