tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post6075086168909938905..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Purebred v crossbred longevity - your questions answeredJemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-47638521044500123232013-07-12T13:18:23.549+01:002013-07-12T13:18:23.549+01:00Jean Dodds on raw fed dogs:
"Many of us in ...Jean Dodds on raw fed dogs: <br /><br />"Many of us in the veterinary community, including myself, have seen first-hand the health and vigor of dogs and cats fed raw diets. These animals just ‘shine’ in all respects. While these observations are shared by a growing number of animal health care professionals as well as experienced dog and cat fanciers, they could be considered as merely anecdotal. Perhaps so, but I consider them experiential findings based on years of observations by many dedicated professionals in the holistic veterinary field."<br /><br />http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/34362052572/raw-dog-food-versus-cookedFrannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41573940343223584922013-01-16T12:09:06.086+00:002013-01-16T12:09:06.086+00:00Will the findings be breed-specific? For example, ...Will the findings be breed-specific? For example, from what I've read, spaying reduces the risk of mammary tumours, but increases the risk of osteosarcoma. If this is valid, whilst it seems sensible to spay breeds prone to mammary tumours (certain spaniels, I think), on the other hand, spaying breeds already prone to osteosarcoma (Greyhounds, Rottweilers), strikes me as madness. <br /><br />Yet I have not come across research into alternative forms of sterilisation, apart from removal of just the ovaries, which also eliminates the protective hormones. From what I understand in people, a hysterectomy that leaves the ovaries intact, frequently results in the ovaries atrophying over time. Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-3499028790952206192013-01-15T13:54:33.736+00:002013-01-15T13:54:33.736+00:00I want to add that we were put under a LOT of pres...I want to add that we were put under a LOT of pressure to have the operation. It was reiterated several times that the referral vet thought surgery was the best option for her recovery and that a cast was a very poor second. I did get the impression we were viewed as bad owners for opting for the cast. <br /><br />This means that if we'd been insured with a high-enough policy, we would have gone for the surgery. <br /><br />In future, I will always see a Greyhound vet - cheaper and more experienced. Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76225724261734094642013-01-15T12:39:52.019+00:002013-01-15T12:39:52.019+00:00I can't help but wonder if one reason for unin...I can't help but wonder if one reason for uninsured dogs living longer, is down to them being recommended for conservative treatment rather than risky and expensive surgery?<br /><br />I experienced this with my own dog. She fractured her neck (C2), an uncommon fracture site the orthopaedic surgeon at the veterinary hospital we were referred to, had never seen before. Despite this, he recommended surgery at a cost of £3.5K, with a recovery rate estimated at 60%. As we weren't insured, we opted for the conservative treatment of a cast, which cost a fifth of the price. We later found a cohort study from 1999, which showed dogs with this exact same fracture site that were put in a cast, had an 80-90% chance of recovery. The faster the dogs received treatment, the more likely they were to recover. Therefore, by not being insured, we increased our dog's odds of recovery by a further 30%. This study did not recommend surgery as a cast had such a high success rate. Whilst I can appreciate that surgery has improved since 1999, there was still no reason for this vet to recommend surgery for my dog. He should have been aware of this study, or if he wasn't, it was very easy to find on Google. <br /><br />The success rate of a cast over surgery, was later confirmed by a sports injury vet. He sees a couple of cases of C2 fractures a year. He always puts them in a cast; they always recover. <br /><br />Needless to say, I know which vet I will see in the future and which vet I now know to avoid! Additionally, I recommend the sports injury vet to my friends and other dog walkers, but not the vet hospital. The former is also far cheaper!Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-57805233846239432502013-01-15T12:25:30.282+00:002013-01-15T12:25:30.282+00:00Only just seen this. Thank you both for taking the...Only just seen this. Thank you both for taking the time to reply. <br /><br />Hopefully we're in for exciting times ahead!<br />Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-69092104860374636612013-01-10T11:16:24.720+00:002013-01-10T11:16:24.720+00:00And here is the response from Vet Compass's Da...And here is the response from Vet Compass's Dan O'Neill: "...this perception of science being in the pocket of funders is a difficult one to allay because the ‘methinks he doth protest too much’ syndrome is likely to come into play. All I can ever do is to assure that we will publish any important findings that we identify, regardless of who does or does not like the results. The sole objective of VetCompass is to shed light that will improve animal welfare and that requires the unadulterated truth. If we identified an association of poor health with neutering or any other prophylactic procedure, it would be reported."Jemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-91075009123604522532013-01-10T10:44:27.924+00:002013-01-10T10:44:27.924+00:00It wouldn't just be Ben Goldacre who would cal...It wouldn't just be Ben Goldacre who would call it "bad science", Fran. <br /><br />Funding bias is an issue in research but I am persuaded of VetCompass's integrity. There's an interesting test of this on the way, btw as the KC has (rather bravely I think) funded VC to look at health difference between KC registered purebreds and non-KC purebreds. One might assume, then, that there would be some subtle pressure to give the KC the answer it is looking for.<br /><br />Knowing how VC operates, however, I am pretty convinced that we will get the real answer, come what may.<br /><br />JemimaJemima Harrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-20871736543934619042013-01-10T10:04:36.335+00:002013-01-10T10:04:36.335+00:00Will the data collected by VetCompass be analysed ...Will the data collected by VetCompass be analysed 'blind'? This is to prevent fudging of the results to make them favourable to whomever is funding this project. Ben Goldacre would call this 'bad science'. In most research, there is a subtle pressure on the researchers to give the funders the results they desire, it's subtle, but it's still there, otherwise how else do universities etc., keep securing their funding?<br /><br />One thing that concerns me is that vets and rescues, for very good reasons, support neutering. However, if Vetcompass's research found that neutering had a detrimental effect on the longterm health of the dogs (e.g. a significantly increased risk of cancer), would this be reported, or would these results not be disclosed to the general public? Would they point out the (small) number of dogs prevented from getting testicular cancer, whilst ignoring the significantly increased risk of urinary bladder cancer, prostrate cancer, hemangiosarcomas and osteosarcomas, as suggested by other research?<br /><br />If neutering is found to be detrimental to the dogs, would VetCompass recommend further research on alternatives? At the moment, dog population control has a one-size-fits-every-dog, procedure, even though neutering may not be in the best interests of that individual dog. Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-18394205210983217402012-06-14T14:22:22.855+01:002012-06-14T14:22:22.855+01:00That's not the point. Generalizations about X...That's not the point. Generalizations about X-breeds simply don't make sense. It's like assuming green, purple, and orange look alike because they are blends, as opposed to primary colours. The behaviour of a blend depends on its constituents. Much as I dislike breeding dogs for aggression, I'd guess that a Neo x pit bull would have a longer life expectancy than a Neo, though not necessarily than a pit bull. Whether a Goldie x Labrador has a longer life expectancy than a Golden or Labrador is going to depend on the individuals . . . the health differences withing the two breeds are probably greater than the differences between the breeds. To the extent that pedigree dogs are inbred and suffer from the consequences of homozygosity, any breeding that increases diversity should increase life expectancy, whether it is within the breed or outcrossing.<br />btw. mutt mixes vary with geography. Where I live most pound mutts, and there are loads of them, are pit bull, chihuahua, or mixtures containing pit or chi. They have low life expectancies cause they often get pts or run over, but if well cared for, they are long lived. But the street pits and chis from which they are derived are a hardy, scrappy lot with no recorded pedigrees.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41307687973205020822012-06-13T21:00:53.601+01:002012-06-13T21:00:53.601+01:00Beth, Dodds' study:
http://www.apdt.co.uk/doc...Beth, Dodds' study:<br /><br />http://www.apdt.co.uk/documents/KennelClubNutrition.pdfFrannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-11380496036043284532012-06-13T20:49:22.626+01:002012-06-13T20:49:22.626+01:00Anon 14:39: My comment about my dogs rarely gettin...Anon 14:39: My comment about my dogs rarely getting fleas on a raw diet is exactly how it is for me; my dogs now rarely get fleas. This is something I have observed in my own dogs, not something I've plucked out of thin air. <br /><br />Wild canids live in the cruel, natural world, where their health is affected by the harsh environment and frequently having to subsist on inferior rations.Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-44207346967753721732012-06-13T14:39:24.208+01:002012-06-13T14:39:24.208+01:00I have nothing against homemade diets. There needs...I have nothing against homemade diets. There needs to be more research done on them, certainly, and they are probably not harmful, but I get so tired of hearing ridiculous unfounded claims and anecdotes and people touting them as panaceas. The comment about someone's dog's not having fleas on one of these diets -- animals in the wild eat mostly prey that they have killed, so why are they covered with fleas in this case?<br /><br />For anyone wanting something balanced to read, Brennan McKenzie has an article on sciencebasedmedicine http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/raw-meat-and-bone-diets-for-dogs-its-enough-to-make-you-barf/ I tried to find the Dodds study again, but Google got clogged up with the writings of silly people claiming that the study means Dodds endorses these diets and that they prove they are healthier than conventional commercial ones (which they don't, and which was not Dodds's conclusion -- the measurements were all within the normal range).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-5045411879232329812012-06-12T23:23:44.250+01:002012-06-12T23:23:44.250+01:00Any kind of cross is possible, and anyone can give...Any kind of cross is possible, and anyone can give a 'fake breed' name to a mutt, but I would argue that this is not comparable to the composition of most mutts. I went to the Battersea Dogs Home website and looked at the dogs available page, which gave me three dogs at random. They were a Border Collie cross, a terrier cross, and a GSD cross. If the studies show that most mutts have DNA from long-lived breeds in them, that's still a worthwhile conclusion, but it doesn't mean cross-bred dogs in general live longer than dogs of named breeds.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-81116222163697092112012-06-11T20:37:27.144+01:002012-06-11T20:37:27.144+01:00Granted, but I had a 17-year old Sheltie whose cau...Granted, but I had a 17-year old Sheltie whose cause of death was PROBABLY some kind of cancer. However, he was 17 years old, and had given no signs of illness until a few days before his death. *I* would have called his death "old age", because that's a good long healthy life. How would reporting vets have classified it? OTOH, a 5-year old Golden Retriever who dies of cancer--that's a problem.Norahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11579553846085801674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-11721747513205917302012-06-11T15:01:26.792+01:002012-06-11T15:01:26.792+01:00Beth, take what you will from the Pottenger study....Beth, take what you will from the Pottenger study. However, the high incidence of allergies and arthritis in the domestic dog, parallel Pottenger's findings with cats that were fed cooked meat. <br /><br />My own dogs also rarely get fleas now they are on a diet - yet did get fleas on kibble - something else which mirrors Pottenger's study. This isn't an anomaly, it is a common occurrence amongst raw-feeders.Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-60590146216104319282012-06-11T14:04:15.264+01:002012-06-11T14:04:15.264+01:00Fran, I don't want this to turn into a raw fee...Fran, I don't want this to turn into a raw feeding debate. However, the Pottenger's cat study turns out to have shown us a lot about taurine in cats (obligate carnivores) and is not applicable to dogs (carnivorous omnivores).Bethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-41147905076797262482012-06-11T12:37:17.851+01:002012-06-11T12:37:17.851+01:00There is also the Pottenger's cats study which...There is also the Pottenger's cats study which did show an enormous difference in the health of cats fed raw meat compared to those fed cooked. http://ppnf.org/store?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=228Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-17171057090255268512012-06-11T12:22:11.530+01:002012-06-11T12:22:11.530+01:00Beth, the study on feeding cats raw rabbit can be ...Beth, the study on feeding cats raw rabbit can be found on Wikipedia under raw feeding. It is, however, flawed. In the same way that you or I would not solely eat one food item for months on end and not expect to become deficient in essential nutrients, neither do raw feeders feed one meat exclusively. The cats became deficient in taurine - no surprises there. Yes, raw diets can be deficient, but raw feeders know this and therefore feed a wide variety of fresh foods. <br /><br />Here is how I see it, people are advised by human nutritionists to eat a wide variety of fresh foods and avoid processed foods as much as possible. Yet kibble is a processed food, but somehow this good advice for a healthy balanced diet for people, doesn't apply to dogs.Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-606972090109927162012-06-11T04:37:36.153+01:002012-06-11T04:37:36.153+01:00You can find X breeds from breeds with health prob...You can find X breeds from breeds with health problems.<br />Pugalier: Pug x Cavalier<br />Bandogge: Mastiff x (often pit bull, sometimes English bulldog or boxer)<br />It would be interesting to know the longevity of these crosses, though bandogges are often used for dangerous sports like pig hunting, so may have lifespans foreshortened.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-28133183876560239172012-06-11T00:40:27.116+01:002012-06-11T00:40:27.116+01:00Anonymous, do you by any chance have links or more...Anonymous, do you by any chance have links or more information on those studies? I would be interested in reading them.Beth F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05538095242261473639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-25176331994730919122012-06-10T17:18:54.414+01:002012-06-10T17:18:54.414+01:00Jean Dodds did a study comparing dogs fed on '...Jean Dodds did a study comparing dogs fed on 'raw' homemade diets to dogs fed on dry food. There were found to be no obvious advantages to it. There is also a study on feeding cats rabbits, a study of a disease in greyhounds caused by feeding raw meats, and a study of foxhounds, all of which had negative results. Undoubtedly many other studies have been done by the proponents of homemade diets, but not published because they presumably showed no advantage or even a detriment. If you use one of these diets and are happy with the results that's all very well, and there's little evidence that such diets are harmful. But please don't buy in to the miracle panacea/ naturalistic fallacy stuff -- there's no evidence for this and it just perpetuates the unsavoury conspiracy theories banded about by struck-off vets and quacks hawking self-published diet books.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-38564062266452644672012-06-10T17:00:22.158+01:002012-06-10T17:00:22.158+01:00Thanks for Dan's response. It is interesting r...Thanks for Dan's response. It is interesting research, but I still don't believe it justifies the sweeping statement that 'cross-bred dogs live longer than pure-bred dogs'. Lifespans for particular breeds can be averaged out and compared, but you simply can't do this meaningfully with cross-bred dogs as a category as they can be composed of any combination of any breeds, long-lived or short-lived. Most crossbreed dogs I know have at least one parent of a healthy and popular breed, such as a terrier or Labrador. I have never met a mongrel dog who I understood to have one of the notoriously unhealthy breeds in its ancestry, such as the Neopolitan Mastiff or Bulldog. Have you considered looking into the composition of mongrels and factoring this in, perhaps to compare their lifespan to that of related breeds?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-78527704407170659712012-06-09T22:42:33.363+01:002012-06-09T22:42:33.363+01:00Thank you for your response Dan. A very interesti...Thank you for your response Dan. A very interesting study which I'm sure will develop in years to come.Annie Macfarlanenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-77317145636865993412012-06-09T19:52:42.107+01:002012-06-09T19:52:42.107+01:00Indeed -- the single most important quality of dog...Indeed -- the single most important quality of dog food is its QUANTITY. Fat dogs die younger and sicker. Just about any nutritionally balanced dog food will do, whether commercial or home-made.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-22556701836682595872012-06-09T08:38:41.389+01:002012-06-09T08:38:41.389+01:00The number of dogs put down in rescue, does not re...The number of dogs put down in rescue, does not reflect the number of dogs put down in the pound. If rescues can't rehome the dogs in their care fast enough, then they won't have room to take more from the pound.Frannoreply@blogger.com