tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post3272408928225021406..comments2024-03-20T17:32:35.238+00:00Comments on Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: A topline to die for?Jemima Harrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05092892697145388048noreply@blogger.comBlogger218125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-35537820409042637852018-10-04T13:15:49.246+01:002018-10-04T13:15:49.246+01:00https://v.gd/VVgwQt- - Keep searching for more su...https://v.gd/VVgwQt- - Keep searching for more such useful information; stay informed, stay healthy.<br />Taking care of your teeth is an ongoing process and regular check-ups and cleaning at the dentist minimizes any lasting problems.<br />Headaches are common high are occasions when many people suffer from minor to severe headaches.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-82299595181102267692013-12-09T03:27:19.919+00:002013-12-09T03:27:19.919+00:00Its sad. This whole thing is just sad.
The dog d...Its sad. This whole thing is just sad. <br /><br />The dog depicted above is a travesty. I see these deformed crippled G.S's being walked every day. Hobbling and dragging their hind ends up our road.<br /><br />Can breeders not see the pain can breeders not understand the suffering? <br /><br />I feel there is an urgent need for the involvement of governments to stop this in its tracks. No slow change but in its tracks now, animals are suffering. <br /><br />Breeds that display obvious defects that cause crippling conditions should simply be banned from being able to be shown right across Europe coming from Brussels. End of story. Until such time as they are fit to be registered as a breed again by government commission of vets and experts in the field. Only then will you see stud books flying open and any real change taking place.<br /><br />It's obvious that self regulation hasn't worked in the past and is no where near working now. <br /><br />At the moment it's like taking a complete travesty in almost every respect and saying well 'lets let it breath'.....problem solved? Or lets let it walk, or lets let it breed naturally......<br /><br />Clearly it has to be able to do everything and live a long healthy life doing so and for many many breeds this is just not the case. Clearly breeds need to be reinvented and stud books opened and left open for eternity and always with health and function as the goal.<br /><br />Showing criteria have to change, away with tight standards and definitions in with performance testing. Lets see that those dogs are healthy able to run breath function normally lets reward that instead. Not some trumped up test lasting ten minutes on the day but proper performance testing lasting a few months were each stud is then certified suitable to be bred from.<br /><br />For now and possibly forever I will stick with the working breeds that are not shown but whose function is tested either in trails or in work itself and whose only pedigree is that their mother and her mother and their fathers and great great grand fathers all excelled not in the show ring but in living, and in life.<br /><br />Fortunately there are many alternatives out there and some breeders mostly outside of "showing" who are breeding this kind of animal. Most are not affiliated with the KC or the AKC or the ..........it is here where many loved breeds will find salvation Im convinced of this. Call them 'improved' the improved bulldog, the improved dachshund........Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14041212020431214852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-30873290270551271082013-11-26T16:12:47.106+00:002013-11-26T16:12:47.106+00:00Just had to share this picture http://cdn.pedigree...Just had to share this picture http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/gallerypictures/41290.jpgAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-56394491731414120172013-10-04T17:29:14.363+01:002013-10-04T17:29:14.363+01:00I agree; this hunchback look began in the 1970s in...I agree; this hunchback look began in the 1970s in German imports and was carried to extremes in the 1980s through to the present. I recall articles debating this in several dog magazines, particularly those devoted to show dogs, during the 1970s. That was a time when breeders in the USA were beginning to try to move away from the heavy influence of Lance of Fran-Jo; the argument being that American GSDs were becoming too upright in the fronts & too long and weak in the back. The prevailing opinion about the roach-backed German dogs was that "although not as attractive, and not in accordance with the standard, a roached back is a strong back". I disagreed then ; I felt that the roached back would lead to weakened hindquarters and skeletal problems. It's obvious to me now that that is exactly what has happened. I do not like the loose hocks, bad backs, and faulty hindquarters of AKC show GSDs either. <br />It's terribly unfortunate that the SV has taken the German Shepherd and turned it into a hunchbacked freak. I disagree, however, that the GSD is still a "German" dog; it has become one of those cosmopolitan breeds, beloved (and sometimes reviled) the world over. There are thousands of good German Shepherd Dogs the world over, but most of them are occupied as working dogs or as pets; you don't see many in competition, especially in conformation shows. Sheila Collinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-83646768347151756672013-08-20T06:57:32.279+01:002013-08-20T06:57:32.279+01:00Hell yes!Hell yes!Heather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-10283752562372631112013-08-17T22:57:35.070+01:002013-08-17T22:57:35.070+01:00I have to disagree a teeny bit there Jemima, there...I have to disagree a teeny bit there Jemima, there is nothing wrong with making money from dogs if the reasons for doing so are valid and that welfare is always the priority.<br /><br />I am quite comfortable with folk making money from breeding, if they are producing high quality healthy animals, where there is demand for doing so. What they spend the profits on is their business so long as they are paying their taxes!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-63331228568303567422013-08-13T16:02:29.686+01:002013-08-13T16:02:29.686+01:00Common goldfish can grow up to a foot long, and fa...Common goldfish can grow up to a foot long, and fancies 6-8 inches, so clearly they shouldn't be in bowls. For commons it's 30 US gallons and 20 for fancies for the first fish, and 10 more for every fish after that.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00726404286368699792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76163576190242164392013-08-08T18:35:05.680+01:002013-08-08T18:35:05.680+01:00Implying that any pet dog can live a satisfying li...Implying that any pet dog can live a satisfying life in a crate for 8 hours a day is quite frankly, unethical. Some people with working dogs are utterly clueless with regard to understanding the emotional life of dogs....don't bother getting a dog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-32860311749479318012013-08-08T14:11:58.524+01:002013-08-08T14:11:58.524+01:00I think you miss the point I am trying to make. Wi...I think you miss the point I am trying to make. With qualifications in canine behaviour, let me reassure you that I get that a certain type of dog needs a certain type of mental and physical exercise. The point I am trying to make is that the average dog owner doesn't often understand that or even want to honour it. Re-read my posts. Some have dog skills, most don't. That includes understanding how to leave a BC in a cage successfully for 8 hours without the dog developing behavioural problems. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-28847343163896342902013-08-08T12:25:42.768+01:002013-08-08T12:25:42.768+01:00Sarah,
outcrossing with working as the breeding g...Sarah,<br /><br />outcrossing with working as the breeding goal can only be accomplished if there are other breeds that can satisfy the work standard. For Border Collies how many shepherds do you see working individuals of other breeds on the hills?<br />PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-57929281763759326702013-08-08T12:22:44.305+01:002013-08-08T12:22:44.305+01:00Anonymous5 August 2013 18:01:
The level of breedin...Anonymous5 August 2013 18:01:<br />The level of breeding of sport dogs I suspect varies greatly by region and country. All on has to do is look at websites for Border Collies in the USA to see the number of litters from an agility champion sire crossed to an agility champion dam to determine the level of sports breeding here. That combined with breeding for colors seems to be the breeding goals producing the largest number of litters (that are advertised).<br /><br />Without knowing exactly which of the Anonymous posts are yours it's more difficult to tell f you're a non working dog owner. However, within your post with this question there are hints that tell me you really don't understand the minds of working Border Collies and other hints that suggest to me you work in rescue.<br /><br />From my own personal experience I know working bred Border Collies can live a satisficed well adjusted life even with 8hrs of crate time while the owners are at work; this is how we raised our first before we got into working livestock with our dogs. It requires quality time with the dog and above all mental exercises for the dog. They do not need to work livestock to have a fulfilled life; this is a human concept projected onto the dogs. They need some physical exercise and above all mental exercise.<br /><br />Let me repeat this last part because it is the key that most people don't get; above all they need mental exercise.<br /><br />Without the mental exercise they become bored, anxious, and more prone to unwanted behaviors. As you state, there are genetic links to unwanted or difficult to live with behaviors.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-25557554421479924122013-08-08T06:55:18.783+01:002013-08-08T06:55:18.783+01:00There are hunts in the US who retire foxhounds to ...There are hunts in the US who retire foxhounds to family homes.Heather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-75564214875979077942013-08-08T06:46:17.546+01:002013-08-08T06:46:17.546+01:00S.K.Y. I have no way to determine whether you are ...S.K.Y. I have no way to determine whether you are all the varied experts that you claim to be -- you don't use a real name -- but repeat that you need to get the hell out more.<br /><br />Sound, stable, working-bred GSDs are hardly the elusive unicorns you seem to have confabulated. Hell, one of the ones in our unit turned up in the damned dog pound.<br /><br />60% of your "aggression cases" are one breed? Srsly? Yeah, no. Not even Labradors have managed that kind of demographic hegemony.Heather Houlahanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13891198124130533198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-17045788026866825792013-08-07T12:24:13.777+01:002013-08-07T12:24:13.777+01:00"How do you leave a BC in a cage for 8 hours ..."How do you leave a BC in a cage for 8 hours when you at work? Successfully?"<br /><br />It's all about the quality of time given when you are home. Since we have done this (before we got into working the dogs) I personally know how to do this. When I say quality I'm talking about sufficient mental exercise not just physical. It's the mental exercise that keeps these dogs satisfied; they do not need to work livestock to feel fulfilled. (This is a human attitude that is being projected onto the dogs.) Working livestock is more mental than physical; this is the part that the general public does not get and one I can tell by what you're writing you do not get. The behavioral issues presented often develop in dogs that are bored and frustrated because they have not been provided with proper mental exercise. Some of these also stem from poorly bred dogs.<br /><br />As far as the number of sporting bred dogs; that will vary greatly buy region and country. Where I live there is a significant number of sporting dogs being bred. All one has to do is look at the websites of breeders to see what they are touting in the sires & dams to see what their breeding goals are. When you read the sire is an agility champion and he was bred to a dam that is an agility champion; the litter is sport bred.<br /><br />Breeding fewer (i.e. smarted) only leads to a smaller gene pool unless you have fully genotyped both the sire and dam and know the cross will yield greater genetic diversity. All pure bred dog breeds are in-bred with small gene pools. In the case of working Border Collies; there are so few other breeds that still retain sufficient working traits to be viable out-cross options for use in "breeding smarter". How many individual dogs of other breeds do you see shepherds using on the hills? Bearded Collies are genetically related to Border Collies and originally were likely just another coat type that was called a different breed; Border Collies do occasionally come with wirehair coats (i.e. Bearded). Our breed registry provides for registration on merit; where any dog (of any looks) that can perform the work to a specified standard can be registered as a Border Collie. If a dog that looks like a poodle, golden, greyhound, pit bull, etc. can perform the work it can be registered as a Border Collie.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-7753419111645066282013-08-07T07:49:49.544+01:002013-08-07T07:49:49.544+01:00“Do not fall for the kennel club propaganda and be...“Do not fall for the kennel club propaganda and believe that every dog from the herding breeds will actually meet the breed standard of work; nor will every working bred pup meet this standard.”<br /><br />Red rag to a bull. <br /><br />With respect, I pay no attention to kennel club propaganda and am fully aware of the percentage of dogs in a breed and puppies in a litter that are suitable for work. What I do pay attention to is real science around population genetics and what I am very interested in is a successful outcrossing programme that maintains working ability and how it can be used as a model elsewhere. <br /><br />I think you have misunderstood what I meant by “breed fewer and breed smarter”. I meant keep breeding for work and forget about breeding show/pet versions. A smaller population of working dogs produced with sensible breeding practices can be healthier genetically than a larger population of show dogs produced through poor breeding practices. <br /><br />I did not mean breed fewer working dogs. As you suggest, put the ones that don't make the grade into suitable pet/sport homes. And preferably don't neuter them so that if it turns out they've got something you want after all, their genes are available.Sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-62409921872836616202013-08-07T01:05:04.438+01:002013-08-07T01:05:04.438+01:00For anyone interested in GSD movement, there is a ...For anyone interested in GSD movement, there is a good ongoing discussion of it on Dogzonline. See: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/250981-german-shepherd-movement/<br /><br />This includes contributions from several Australian GSD breeders, some of whom show WUSV/Von Stephanitz style dogs. Includes links to some good old pictures, and a discussion of why the flying trot was suitable for herding sheep over the German landscape (see, particularly, posts by Alpha Bet on p. 6 & 7).Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389321571689128858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-76393862566273131862013-08-06T21:23:04.337+01:002013-08-06T21:23:04.337+01:00My above post of 11:29:
I ended up implying that ...My above post of 11:29:<br /><br />I ended up implying that breeding to a standard is better than it actually is. What I was trying to say was that some things about conformation are good - the feet pointing forwards, rather than being pigeon-toed, means the joints are properly aligned. This is good.<br /><br />Having re-read this truly excellent article about the Functional Saluki, I retract my statement that breeding to a standard, so long as the standard avoids exaggerations, can maintain function. Form follows function. http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm Frannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-29071700596393460232013-08-06T12:28:16.018+01:002013-08-06T12:28:16.018+01:00"Breed smarter" doesn't mean much wh..."Breed smarter" doesn't mean much when the available gene pool of dogs (of any breed) that meet the breed standard of the work is small (a fraction of all of the Border Collies and a few kelpies, a few cattle dogs, a few Australian shepherds). Breeding fewer just means we're decreasing the number of dogs that may meet the breed standard. Do not fall for the kennel club propaganda and believe that every dog from the herding breeds will actually meet the breed standard of work; nor will every working bred pup meet this standard.<br /><br />No, our dogs had off switched as pups before they were even introduced to livestock. They needed some physical exercise and mental exercise, the latter of which the general public doesn't understand. All the general public thinks these dogs need is physical exercise but all this does is make the dogs more physically fit and mentally bored. Hide & seek with a toy will tire these dogs out faster than fetch with a ball.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-91266249673912407892013-08-06T09:52:59.168+01:002013-08-06T09:52:59.168+01:00Basically, I agree with what you say Sarah - your ...Basically, I agree with what you say Sarah - your thoughts on breeding for health and temperament are entirely sensible. <br /><br />Sarah said - 'A good start, though, would be a better understanding of what dogs are – sentient creatures with needs that must be respected – and what dogs are not – lumps of clay to be molded mentally and/or physically regardless of their health and welfare, stuffed toys that happen to breathe or, possibly the most ghastly term I’ve heard yet, “furbabies“'<br /><br />Absolutely. There is a remarkable lack of behavioural understanding by a lot of people involved with dogs. It staggers me some of the comments I read and the unrealistic expectations placed on dogs. I mentioned earlier the complacency afforded by familiarity - as you say, just because someone likes the look of a dog it doesn't mean they should get one. Equally, just because you've been around dogs it doesn't mean you truly understand their needs and are able to teach and train that affords them little distress and builds a trusting bond. Which is why it's so important to be able to honour a dog's needs - a working BC in a pet home may very well struggle to relax and thrive with an average dog owner IMO. It's important to consider the needs of the dog first and foremost.<br /><br />PipeDreamFarm said - 'Most of our working bred Border Collies have "off switches"; some even will turn off while out in a field with the stock when we're not working the stock.'<br />It's probably because they already have their intrinsic desire to work fulfilled that they are able to switch off so easily. How about if the same dog had been hanging around the house all day after a 20 minute trot around the block on a lead?<br /><br /> <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-17383629635253199922013-08-06T07:38:59.068+01:002013-08-06T07:38:59.068+01:00PipedreamFarm said:
“There is an issue with bree...PipedreamFarm said: <br /><br />“There is an issue with breeding fewer working dogs; it makes the gene pool smaller leading to more genetic issues.”<br /><br />Yes and no. That’s why I said “breed smarter”. It is the breeding practices of the kennel club/show world that, in order to preserve some mythical “purity”, have led to horrendously compromised gene pools so that even though there may be thousands, even tens of thousands, of individuals in a breed, the effective inbreeding population may be the equivalent of less than 50 individuals. If more appropriate breeding practices were used (e.g. breeding from more individuals and outcrossing), genetic health could be maintained with a far smaller population of individuals within a given breed. The KNPV breeders are an interesting model for this: they are willing to cross with any breed that brings in desired working traits, though some crosses are more common than others. Yet within a few generations, the results can look like a purebred dog, if that’s what you (the ubiquitous you, not you individually) are concerned about.<br /><br />I agree with everything you say about trials vs. work.<br /><br />Anon 14:24 said:<br /><br />“I think the attitude towards breeding working dogs is much, much healthier but we need dogs as pets who are less predatory, less reactive and are stranger tolerant.”<br /><br />Which is why I said, if you want a pet dog, get a pet dog. Just because someone likes the look of a dog doesn’t mean they should have one.<br /><br />“It's complicated....”<br /><br />I know I can come across as seeing things in black and white at times but actually I do agree – it is complicated, with many shades of grey. <br /><br />There is no ideal solution and the tragedy is that every solution will have collateral damage, all of it canine. A good start, though, would be a better understanding of what dogs are – sentient creatures with needs that must be respected – and what dogs are not – lumps of clay to be molded mentally and/or physically regardless of their health and welfare, stuffed toys that happen to breathe or, possibly the most ghastly term I’ve heard yet, “furbabies”.<br />Sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-43370748886560878122013-08-05T18:01:10.805+01:002013-08-05T18:01:10.805+01:00Why do you make the assumption that I am a non wor...Why do you make the assumption that I am a non working dog owner I wonder?<br /><br />When people have to pick up the pieces on behavioural work with Border Collies herding cars, children and following through to grab-bites it's understandable that some people will question the suitability of working dogs in homes. There isn't the demand to breed dogs simply for sporting purposes really and I would suspect that most pedigree dogs will come from show or working lines in the majority of homes where people have bought a puppy from a breeder as a family pet. But I concur, breeding for high drive sporting traits is ethically questionable practice along with showing in beauty pageants.<br /><br />The genetic lottery of sexual reproduction does not ensure that every BC from a litter is going to be a high drive dog of course. It's selecting for herding high dive traits that ensures success though and the amount of Collie and Collie crosses in rescue would indicate that a lot of these dogs aren't suitable pets for most people. How do you leave a BC in a cage for 8 hours when you at work? Successfully? Would you really sell this type of dog to a home where both adults work full time? Or have young children? Given the points I mentioned in my earlier post about a lack of behavioural understanding?<br /><br />Also, what is the natural behaviour mechanism for the off switch you talk about?<br />You can teach a dog an off switch too. As a breeder it is very important to communicate about effective teaching with dogs such as collies too. Not simply imply that they all naturally have the capability to switch off. It is potentially misleading.<br /><br />Behaviour is extraordinarily complex genetically. Literally hundreds of genes involved in the endocrine system and Balyaev's work on foxes was remarkable in understanding what is involved when selecting for a behaviour trait.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-66360680302414787002013-08-05T17:02:29.888+01:002013-08-05T17:02:29.888+01:00So many non-working dog owners have the belief tha...So many non-working dog owners have the belief that working bred dogs are over the top in terms of hyperness, reactivity, exercise requirements, etc. which in reality is not the case in all lines of working dogs. Most of our working bred Border Collies have "off switches"; some even will turn off while out in a field with the stock when we're not working the stock.<br /><br />Sport bred dogs are a whole different breed; they are bred for very high drive and speed.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-70048432404808355262013-08-05T14:24:56.503+01:002013-08-05T14:24:56.503+01:00I think the attitude towards breeding working dogs...I think the attitude towards breeding working dogs is much, much healthier but we need dogs as pets who are less predatory, less reactive and are stranger tolerant. Given the fact that the average dog owner tends to be pretty clueless about the emotional life of their dog and how to get the best out of them.<br /><br />Karen Overall's relaxation protocol as well as Leslie McDevitt's training philosophy and games are great for helping reactive and 'busy' dogs relax in life. However, how many pet owners have a true and sound knowledge of a behavioural approach to training and understand how to apply the principles of animal learning effectively and kindly? Just because you love dogs doesn't mean you love training them or have the skills required to teach dogs effectively. Having a dog that wants to work and not being able to provide outlets for it can be a disaster for the life of the dog and the people involved.<br /><br />Familiarity does NOT equal expertise or true understanding.<br /><br />Not everyone wants a running buddy for a dog. Most people would like a calm, relaxed dog who is equally happy out on a walk as he is laying by the fire. Heck, outlets such as agility and Flyball can be a nightmare for dogs who don't kow how to relax and ignore the activity going on around them and this definitely includes working dogs. It's complicated....<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-82486236488839712202013-08-05T13:28:06.552+01:002013-08-05T13:28:06.552+01:00There is an issue with breeding fewer working dogs...There is an issue with breeding fewer working dogs; it makes the gene pool smaller leading to more genetic issues.<br /><br />The ideal would be to sell the excess working bred pups (those not purchased by people who will work the dogs) to pet homes where the working breeders cooperate with one another to guide pet buyers to those lines (genetically linked temperaments) that best suit their lifestyle.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1183957703077342201.post-54507937162585024892013-08-05T13:15:26.589+01:002013-08-05T13:15:26.589+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.PipedreamFarmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689373141070251132noreply@blogger.com